Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bikekil on January 13, 2004, 02:37:23 AM
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NY POST (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/14094.htm)
Ok.. maybe it;s too idealistic ;) Actually stopping the "red hordes" were fighting for our freedom. I don't believe we had some thought about saving the europe at that time...
but other then that it should be a good lecture :)
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Almoust like in good old times Bike....
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Asmo :) Nice to see you readin the board still
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Im droping by some times....
Trying to folow what is going on .... Specialy in AH.
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Thanks Poland,
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I'm pissed.
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Interesting article.
Some gross generalizations there, but oh well :)
As for current money issues, I remember reading something in polish press about US backing out from paying for some of the costs related to Iraq mission which pissed some people off.
On the other hand, 4 new nato bases are being set up in Poland which should help.
oh, and Poland didn't go to iraq because poles love freedom, by en-large most poles were against it, just as much as french. Our government chose to involve us, hence we went.
Doesn't sound as glorious now, does it ? :)
But... for average NYPost reader few stereotypes with couple of generalizations to draw conclusions is usually enough :)
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Asmoooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooo! :D
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Ralph Peters is a retired Army officer and the author of "Beyond Baghdad."
:rofl
I'm OK to give him 2€ to let him make studies. Anybody else?
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Even if the Polish government forced her troops to Iraq, still make's me wonder if the United States has the fortitude to survive as a nation over the centuries as Poland has. In a lot of ways unknown to most Americans that nation has helped us more than any other ever thought of doing since people starting settling here. Wake up America and find out who your true friends and allies are. Where were Britian and France when Poland needed them in 1939.
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What did the Poles do? They immediately saved Western civilization yet again. In the now-forgotten "Miracle on the Vistula," a patched-together Polish army turned back the Red hordes headed for Berlin. One of history's most brilliant campaigns, it saved defeated Germany from a communist takeover.
What did this guy smoke?...
What is really "now forgotten" is that Polish army invaded Soviet country on April, 25th, 1920, and on May, 6th took Kiev. (!!!)
A "patched-together Polish army" was 5 times bigger then opposing forces of Soviet South-Western front.
So, as usual we have a strange distortion of history: noone cares that "red hordes" were kicking invaders out of our country all the way from Kiev.
Polish army saved Germany from "communist takeover"? Why only Germany and not France, Italy, UK and Canada?
I have all possible respect towards Poland and it's people, but I hate when someone shamelessly rewrites history :mad:
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Originally posted by Krotki
Even if the Polish government forced her troops to Iraq, still make's me wonder if the United States has the fortitude to survive as a nation over the centuries as Poland has. In a lot of ways unknown to most Americans that nation has helped us more than any other ever thought of doing since people starting settling here. Wake up America and find out who your true friends and allies are. Where were Britian and France when Poland needed them in 1939.
And where was Wilson in 1920 ?
It was point 13 of Wilson point...
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Originally posted by Boroda
What did the Poles do? They immediately saved Western civilization yet again. In the now-forgotten "Miracle on the Vistula," a patched-together Polish army turned back the Red hordes headed for Berlin. One of history's most brilliant campaigns, it saved defeated Germany from a communist takeover.
What did this guy smoke?...
What is really "now forgotten" is that Polish army invaded Soviet country on April, 25th, 1920, and on May, 6th took Kiev. (!!!)
A "patched-together Polish army" was 5 times bigger then opposing forces of Soviet South-Western front.
So, as usual we have a strange distortion of history: noone cares that "red hordes" were kicking invaders out of our country all the way from Kiev.
Polish army saved Germany from "communist takeover"? Why only Germany and not France, Italy, UK and Canada?
I have all possible respect towards Poland and it's people, but I hate when someone shamelessly rewrites history :mad:
And ladies and gents - Boroda is right.
Poland attacked USSR right along with UK and others after the revolution. Then it almost paid the price being the only nation that engaged with exposed borderline :) Talk about reckless :)
And yes, it was a miracle on Vistula - we should have gotten our tulips kicked. Somehow, we survived.
So I guess the lesson is.. .history is never straight and rarely simple :D
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Originally posted by Boroda I have all possible respect towards Poland and it's people, but I hate when someone shamelessly rewrites history :mad: [/B]
What is really interesting for me is that someone in the states take care about it :)
Boroda, as most if not every country that have a border were fighting by the ages. I'm not a history master but as i remember we could date "our" fights as a more then 1000y old (or longer).
Once we are inviders then you were. That's the way it been by ages.
It's not bad and it's not good. I'd say it's normal in a relations between the nations in europe. That's true we've saved the Vienna as it's true We've invaded Kiev.
Thing are more complicated when we think about the Lwow. We claim it as a Polish city and it's currently not ( i believe it stays that way with some good share of poles living there... about 40%? I'd never start a fight for it and i believe it's good like it is now). This is because the land was yours/ours/outs/ours and so on...
As for the "red hordes" actually your army was a red one (not a expert in a Russian history again, but Red army destroyed the White russian army... killed the "white elite"?). At that time we were more white then red for sure. Looking for that perspective "red horde" is offending, but "red army" is true.
Your attack on our lands at 17.09.1939 is a fact. Also a fact is that after the was you (and by you i mean you as a country not as a people) was not welcome here, but you ruled us. Russians 've killed many of our officers duriong and after the war.
Then i have to mentin the Polas murdered a lot of Russions when had the chance. I never forgot about it... in both cases it's just how things looked here. Right or wrong it just been that way.
I'm not that old but i do remember being insuling and calling a lier because of saying that Russia attacked Poland in '39 when i was in a primary school (Happened that my grandpa was a soldier and were fighting on our eastern borded, then prisonec 40km from Russia). Was it shameless rewriting a history? Of course. That is what Russia did and called the attack a "brotherhood help".
We (Poland and Russia) are same fair here.
Also i do like Russians as a people (know 20+ guys about my age). They are not guilty about the history as i am not about what we did :) We just living on the same part of the world and have our history.
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Originally posted by straffo
I'm pissed.
Pretty safe to assume I should be happy, then.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Pretty safe to assume I should be happy, then.
No, you should smell funny.
:p
someone got a Virtuti Militari ... but I've not found a book pretenting it was a miracle ;)
I'm half kidding I don't know the influence de Gaulle had during this war.
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Hey man, you guys are the ones that turn your nose up to soap.
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soap ?
is it this modern invention I've heard off ?
like shower of bathroom ?
Will try it next year ,thanks for the idea :)
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Originally posted by bike killa
What is really interesting for me is that someone in the states take care about it :)
Boroda, as most if not every country that have a border were fighting by the ages. I'm not a history master but as i remember we could date "our" fights as a more then 1000y old (or longer).
Once we are inviders then you were. That's the way it been by ages.
It's not bad and it's not good. I'd say it's normal in a relations between the nations in europe. That's true we've saved the Vienna as it's true We've invaded Kiev.
Thing are more complicated when we think about the Lwow. We claim it as a Polish city and it's currently not ( i believe it stays that way with some good share of poles living there... about 40%? I'd never start a fight for it and i believe it's good like it is now). This is because the land was yours/ours/outs/ours and so on...
As for the "red hordes" actually your army was a red one (not a expert in a Russian history again, but Red army destroyed the White russian army... killed the "white elite"?). At that time we were more white then red for sure. Looking for that perspective "red horde" is offending, but "red army" is true.
Your attack on our lands at 17.09.1939 is a fact. Also a fact is that after the was you (and by you i mean you as a country not as a people) was not welcome here, but you ruled us. Russians 've killed many of our officers duriong and after the war.
Then i have to mentin the Polas murdered a lot of Russions when had the chance. I never forgot about it... in both cases it's just how things looked here. Right or wrong it just been that way.
I'm not that old but i do remember being insuling and calling a lier because of saying that Russia attacked Poland in '39 when i was in a primary school (Happened that my grandpa was a soldier and were fighting on our eastern borded, then prisonec 40km from Russia). Was it shameless rewriting a history? Of course. That is what Russia did and called the attack a "brotherhood help".
We (Poland and Russia) are same fair here.
Also i do like Russians as a people (know 20+ guys about my age). They are not guilty about the history as i am not about what we did :) We just living on the same part of the world and have our history.
What an EXCELLENT POST!
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Thx for the post bike-kill,
being half polish i must say im ashamed at the little polish history i know... I only know about WWII but further back i dont know anything...
The attack on the Turks sounds amazing, anywhere i can read up more about it?
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Europe....! Don't you just love it? I know I do...:)
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first one i've found Maniac :)
don't forget to scroll down as my first thought was that webpage is so short ;)
http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/EastEurope/ViennaSiege.html
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You know more of the Polish history than you think :)
You're swedish no ? did the 30 year war remind you something ?
Try to look-up : Jean (Jan ?) Sobiesky ,Marie de la Grange d'Arquien (Jean's wife) ,king Casimir and Wisniowiecki (spelling ?)
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Another one i've found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna
Very close Straffo :) It'd be Jan Sobieski ; prince Jarema Wisniowiecki (as we are on the eastern border of Poland)
Not sure who Casimir the king would be... probably Kazimierz?
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Thx bike, got some reading to do this weekend...
Yep Straffo, im from Sweden, Swedish father Polish mother... Bad mix :)
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That's an interesting read, thanks for the post bike. I'm 1/4 Polish, my grandmother was from Gdansk, but I'm not really up on much of the history.
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yep BikeKilla I thought of Kazimierz :)
I'm half polish myself (and half dutch too) but I've trouble reading and writing polish having not learned it :(
The history of Poland got an high interest for sentimental reason and also because it's a complete mess :D
You still want Ukrain back ? (I'm pulling your leg Bike ;))
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hehe Straffo, honestly i think we Poles never should be there. Of course some good share of Polas living there as well as good share of Ukrainians living here, but i like it the way it is.
People who lived close to the border (on both sides) did a lot of horrible things in the XX century (especially around the WW2), like burning the Villages with Civilians... and ot was not done b y a military forces... just a "everyday" people livin in the "next" village. some years ago we were told at shool that there was any fighting... then that Polish nobles (?) burned the Ukrainian working class, then after '89 we were told that Ukrainian hordes burned poor Polish people... now after some research (also after we got the communistic archives here) it's clear that Soviets (aka commies) wanted to have it that way and provoked it on both sides, so the people here and there started to hate each other, blame the neighbour for everything bad that happened and so on...
I believe it's good like it is now :)
Other then that you also have to realise that after the WW2 Polilsh borders were moved to the west. (because Russia posessed us and Germany lost the War). That means a lot of poles stayed in Soviet Union and a lot of Germans stucked here. Fortunatelly we (as a Poland) are a victim here so noone can blame us, but now it can cause some troubles. Germans as a people wants the land and bulidings back... Poland can forget about getting the eastern lands or rights to the properties... so natural way is that we are looking to keep the western goods.
Good or bad, that's the history of that part of earth ;)
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Fact is that article is made à la good ol' XIXth century fashion, manipulating history. The guy may have read books but doesn't really know history.
He's showing France as zee evil country that allied with the Ottomans against the Habsburg, showing that zee evil frenchmen have been on zee evil muslims side... :rofl
I don't see the problem, as long as it was in the interest of France that was threatened on every side (From Belgium to Switzeland and along the spanish border) by an hegemonic power. We provoked the fall of the Habsburgs/spanish supremacy in Europe, opening the way to the franco-english dmoniation of Europe, good! As far as I know, the fair & courageous Britons allied with the Ottomans back in 1798 against France...
He implies that the US have the monopoly of the support of the polish independance... heh... As far as I know (and the polish players might know it - I'm half polish as well), France has been the constant supporter of the polish independance, from Lezynska to the restaured Poland under Napoleon, the hosting of the polish patriots and troops in France during the XIXth century, WW1 and WW2.
The 1919-20 war was certainly made in a nationalistic optic on the polish side (to gain the eastern territories), but the french were the main supporter of this attack against USSR:by supplying massively Poland with weapons and giving them military advisors, such as Weygand or de Gaulle. But I'm afraid that it didn't fit in the author's idea of zee evil islamo-commies frenchmen :D
And finally, as a french-pole myself, I got to regret that Poland is a victim of WW2, yes. I unfortunately lost a whole part of my family during WW2. But Poland didn't really make much to avoid it by;
-signing the non-agression pact with Germany in 1934 and tending on an alliance with it against USSR
-refusing that soviet troops pass on its territory to go help Czechoslovakia in 1938 under the franco-british request. War would have been declared in 1938 if the western Allies were sure that USSR would have joined them. Stalin offered his assistance, his only condition was to be able to transit troops via Poland & Romania. The same scenario happened in 1938-39 during the franco-anglo-soviet negociations for an alliance against Germany.
Each nation has its national interest. Democracies share common values. Iraq and its anemic army was not a threat, just a note on an agenda.
Poland hopped in for its national interest, and that's natural, it's relying on the US for its national security against Russia. France & Germany don't.
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Where were Britian and France when Poland needed them in 1939.
Declaring war on Hitler?
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There is one more problem:
Every country have diferent point of view on the same story...
Just like people...
If we have two sides of conflict - we will have two itnerpretacions of the same incident... and i think we should get use to it...
Regards
Asmo
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Originally posted by Dowding
Declaring war on Hitler?
But you have to admin that declaring war and doing nothing to help is... worthless? I mean it's a kind of "mental support" like "yes. we are on your side but you have to deal with it alone"
For me it's kinda ironic.
Compared to Sobieski who could "declare" support and stay in Poland instead of going to Vienna.
Of course we had a bit of British and French support with creating a Polsh units on the French and British territory after Hitler took our land, but i'd say that we expected support while Hitler attacked not a year later ;)
Now it's only a speculation i can have after reading few books, but IF GB and France attacked Hitler right after he attacked Poland (Poland who was an Allie right?) they could stop him with no major problems.
Allied countries decided to do nothing and almost paid the price once attacked later.
:) Just my poit of view.
Also we hare remember Napoleon as a preson who did A LOT of good for Poland. He was our "hero" also.
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I disagree BK, france should have attacked Hitler as soon as 1936.
But not invading in September/october 1939 was a pretty weak strategy ...
Strategy explained by the incompetence of Brit/French HQ ,the organisation of the army plus a complete lack of creativity.
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Neither the government in France or Britain could have survived if they had chosen to pre-emptively attack Germany. There was just too much anti-war sentiment after the horrors of WW1. Also, many believed Hitler was actually righting a few historical wrongs in reuniting German speaking peoples and reversing the injustice of Versailles. The truth behind Hitler and Nazism only started to become apparent (or important) in the late 30s.
Bike killa, your use of hindsight might make interesting speculation but sadly, the politicians did not share that ability at the time. The truth is Poland simply was not important enough to risk a full scale confrontation if at all possible. Even after Poland was invaded, it was hoped war could be avoided.
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i hear ya :) but hitler was not prepared for the War also. He assumed he can attack Poland and still have no problems with oyur armies. and he was right. That gave him time to learn from the Polish campaign and to move forces to the West once got us beaten.
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"The truth is Poland simply was not important enough to risk a full scale confrontation if at all possible. Even after Poland was invaded, it was hoped war could be avoided."
Yes Dowding. That is the whole point and that is why i'm sad about the so called" Alliance" that Poland had. Our country was as you just said "not important enought"... so your goverments decided to sacrifice Poland and let Hitler killing our people in the concentration camps then help the Ally... because the Ally was not important enought. Of course i'm sure if that would please Hitler Poland would never been free and Polish Allies would been happy in their homes.... that is sad.
thankfully for Sobieski Vienna was important enought ;)
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Politics is a nasty business. That will never change. :)
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Very true :) That's why it's about the politic actions not about people.
I'd risk saying that in a houndreds of years ago "word" that was given meant more then anything else. Now it's only a business for politicians but i believe it's still more or less different with the people.
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I'd say hundreds of years ago someone's word is as good as it today - i.e. not very reliable. :) History is full of broken alliances, double dealing and betrayal. In fact, that is history.
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Nice discussion, all, thanks.
culero
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France suffered in World War I more than any other Western combatant. Most of the fighting on the Western Front took place on French soil, and France suffered millions of casualties.
In the 1920’s and 1930’s the French had the largest army in the world. Much of their equipment was good, and they had large resources in their colonies upon which to draw. France did not lack the tools, only the will. The French people dreaded the possibility of another war.
As Germany made noises over the "Polish Corridor" to Danzig, Britain and France made guarantees to the Polish government. In the event of an attack, the West would come to the defense of Poland.
Neither the British nor the French were in a position to back up their guarantees. Hitler correctly anticipated the poor response by the English and French and issued the armed forces to be deployed for Fall Weiß. With the rapid advance of the German attack the Brits and French could not have come to Poland’s aid. Then the Soviets invaded.
Most of the French military doctrine was based on World War 1 and wasn't prepared to start an offensive. The question is could the west have done anything that could have scared Hitler into a different course of action. I don't think so, especially after his non-aggression pact with the Soviets.
Unfortunately, Poland was left on her own. But this was a result of years of appeasement toward Germany. Hindsight being 20/20 there’s any number of arguments one could make that could have avoided the whole mess to begin with.
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Pretty good resumé Batz :)
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Everything was based on USSR. Had this country allied with Britain & France in 1939, then Germany would have faced an attack on the West. All what the Allies wanted, was to share the casualties with the russians (of course more for the russians...).
If the Allies had attacked in September 1939 (the Saar mini-offensive aside), it would have accelerated their fall. After 10 days, the fate of Poland was certain. The time that France set up an offensive, these 10 days were spent.
The incomplete Siegfried line would have been enough to hold the Allies for 3 or 4 weeks, enough to let the Germans move their troops to the West.
With a long conflict right by 1939, the Allies would have been in a bad shape, because their industry was not already fully mobilized. In 1939, France had 2000 tanks. In May 1940, it had 3500 of them. Keep this in mind.
Poland paid the price of being between two hegemonic powers, Germany and USSR. Unfortunately, it didn't choose the lesser of the two evils by that time, by dating with USSR. A french-british-polish-romanian-russian alliance would have certainly more profitable to Poland. The Allies would have given their warranty to the Polish integrity (as according to the secret negociations, they only planned to shut their mouth when Stalin would invade the baltic states), and it would have probably fixed the Dantzig problem once for all by annexing the german enclave.
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Originally posted by Cerceuilvolant
Everything was based on USSR. Had this country allied with Britain & France in 1939, then Germany would have faced an attack on the West. All what the Allies wanted, was to share the casualties with the russians (of course more for the russians...).
The alliance with UK and France was the thing USSR wanted badly.
The whole story of the UK-France-USSR negotiations in August, 1939, shows that "allies" didn't plan to military assist Poland. They have sent a mission that didn't have any plans or rights to sign treaties, so Voroshilov couldn't hide his indignation about this foolish game.
After the planned faliure of negotiations with "allies" USSR had no other option then to sign a pact with Germans and take it's part of Poland.
BK, thanks for a nice post! It's almost exactly what I think.
I can agree to some extent ewen with the opinion that we supported an agression against Poland in 1939, but I prefer to think that it was a nessesary decision. It could be pretty stupid not to take some land to secure our borders for the future war. Soviets were no angels or saints.
Another thing: IIRC in the end of XVII century Russia and Poland were allies against Sweden and Turkey. European politics was very complicated that time, with one usual thing: Europeans used Russia and Poland in their own purposes letting them die for some vague "allied" interests :(