Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LePaul on January 14, 2004, 12:43:10 PM
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This has happened to me a few times recently and I'm just at wits end trying to figure out how its happening.
A few nights ago, I'm in a P-51B at about 9k. I'm totting 2 500's and a countryman calls a panzer below. I dive in, plink my bombs away and notice a horde or low cons.
I'm screaming fast, 400mph + and level near the deck. An oncomng La7 swooshes by, does a 180 degree turn to catch me and GAINS on my 6 (while I've remained level and screaming away) . Knowing he's got the advantage of turning on the deck, I stay fast and level but before you know it, he's gained, tossed some rounds into me and now I'm damaged, etc
But this has happened to me in various planes over the last couple weeks. I mentioned it to Squaddies who also groaned that it happens to them.
Is this my imagination or something? How can you merge with a con, they do a 180 (assumably bleed energy making the turn) then accelerate and gain on you so quickly while you've maintained your high speed all along?
I'm digging thru my films...will post
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Well, the LA-7 is a dragster on the deck. It accelerates like a beast and will catch a P-51B without breaking a sweat. Did you note his E state at the time he turned? Did he flat turn or loop back? If he was already going 400-500 mph as well, it's no surprise at all he was able to catch you.
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a lot depends. i'd wager the la7 performed a lead turn, starting his turn maybe up to 1k out, maybe even earlier if he was under your nose and couldn't see him.
however quick the la can accelerate, the ponys are no slouch and they won't gain all that fast if the pony has a head of steam already and the la7 blew too much e making the turn.
most likely it was a lead turn, or even possibly a second la7 diving down that you overlooked.
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Originally posted by Shane
a lot depends. i'd wager the la7 performed a lead turn, starting his turn maybe up to 1k out, maybe even earlier if he was under your nose and couldn't see him.
however quick the la can accelerate, the ponys are no slouch and they won't gain all that fast if the pony has a head of steam already and the la7 blew too much e making the turn.
most likely it was a lead turn, or even possibly a second la7 diving down that you overlooked.
I'll go with the lead turn. I do it all the time. I begin the turn at 2K out. However, there were some times where I passed a NIKI or SPIT at 400+ and next thing I knew, they were at d400 on my six. Maybe lag makes it look that way? Maybe the guy did start his turn early but at that vary high rate of closing it looked as if we passed eachother going strait?
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Originally posted by dedalos
I'll go with the lead turn. I do it all the time. I begin the turn at 2K out. However, there were some times where I passed a NIKI or SPIT at 400+ and next thing I knew, they were at d400 on my six. Maybe lag makes it look that way? Maybe the guy did start his turn early but at that vary high rate of closing it looked as if we passed eachother going strait?
This is precisely the phenomena I am referring to
As to the La7, I only noticed it appeared he made quite a sharp turn and =vroom= he was there. I know they accelerate fast...but I was clipping along over 400mph and was trying to pull a Run-Stang :)
That's just one instance, as dedalos mentioned, in other craft and similar situations, it seems to enemy con managed to do some incredible acceleration that my planes dont seem to be able to do.
I'd be curious if its a net lag or something else...I have a great connect!
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Originally posted by LePaul
This is precisely the phenomena I am referring to
As to the La7, I only noticed it appeared he made quite a sharp turn and =vroom= he was there. I know they accelerate fast...but I was clipping along over 400mph and was trying to pull a Run-Stang :)
That's just one instance, as dedalos mentioned, in other craft and similar situations, it seems to enemy con managed to do some incredible acceleration that my planes dont seem to be able to do.
I'd be curious if its a net lag or something else...I have a great connect!
I have a good connection too, but you don't know what the other guy has, or how busy the HT server was. I think this may be similar to warps
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I get a lot of cries calling me a cheater for doing this. All I do is pull a lead turn and use my rudders to keep my nose down on the turns to minimize my E loss and as soon as I get out of my turn, I unload (pushing Zero Gs) my plane to maximize my acceleration and regain whatever energy I may have lost in the turn.
So if I start my lead turn say at 350mph, by the time I've completed my turn and on the bogie's six, I'm either at the same speed I started my turn at or faster.
It's all about the angles and E management. If you can judge angles reasonably well and have a good grasp of E management, these turns will become routine.
On a side note, I love doing this to slimpikn as it's always guaranteed to make him cry cheater or hack. But then he always cries cheater or hack.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I get a lot of cries calling me a cheater for doing this. All I do is pull a lead turn and use my rudders to keep my nose down on the turns to minimize my E loss and as soon as I get out of my turn, I unload (pushing Zero Gs) my plane to maximize my acceleration and regain whatever energy I may have lost in the turn.
So if I start my lead turn say at 350mph, by the time I've completed my turn and on the bogie's six, I'm either at the same speed I started my turn at or faster.
It's all about the angles and E management. If you can judge angles reasonably well and have a good grasp of E management, these turns will become routine.
On a side note, I love doing this to slimpikn as it's always guaranteed to make him cry cheater or hack. But then he always cries cheater or hack.
ack-ack
Ack, I do it all the time too and I have only seen this a few times.
Most of the times I can tell if the other guy started a turn. I am talking about the very few times that it looked as if we were making a HO pass but when I looked back to see what he was doing, the guy was firing from d400.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I am talking about the very few times that it looked as if we were making a HO pass but when I looked back to see what he was doing, the guy was firing from d400.
That's usually caused by net lag. The guy doing the lead turn probably sees what I described in my earlier post on his FE while the other guy sees what you described on his FE.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's usually caused by net lag. The guy doing the lead turn probably sees what I described in my earlier post on his FE while the other guy sees what you described on his FE.
ack-ack
Thats what I was thinking too
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Like others have said, it's a very early turn, initiated in the manner of a low-yoyo, plus impeccable timing. The greatest advocates that move can be seen in the PAC prime time, usually the Japanese pilots in their N1K2s.
Typically, the con you see up in front, is usually in reality much more faster than you expected. They come in with an alt advantage, but try to hide that fact. You usually see them coming in at co-alt, but in reality, they are coming straight towards you after a dive.
With the HO merge, they start an early turn with a slight dive, which if timed carefully, lands behind you about 400~500 yards.
To one's surprise, thinking that the N1K2 in front of you wasn't very fast, and just did a 180 turn, he sticks behind you at 400~500 yards and the separation isn't as high as you expected.
So, he lands behind you at about 450 yards, with about 100 yard separation per second - you are definately outrunning him, but not fast enough to outrun bullets. So, he sprays behind you and either you go down, or get scared by the dangerously close bullets and jink. If you jink, you lose the speed advantage and the separation becomes slower, or he even might catch you.
*Shrug* That's usually what happens. Is that realistic or not, I dunno, but you can do it against all planes with all planes if the timing and speed is right.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Like others have said, it's a very early turn, initiated in the manner of a low-yoyo, plus impeccable timing. The greatest advocates that move can be seen in the PAC prime time, usually the Japanese pilots in their N1K2s.
Typically, the con you see up in front, is usually in reality much more faster than you expected. They come in with an alt advantage, but try to hide that fact. You usually see them coming in at co-alt, but in reality, they are coming straight towards you after a dive.
With the HO merge, they start an early turn with a slight dive, which if timed carefully, lands behind you about 400~500 yards.
To one's surprise, thinking that the N1K2 in front of you wasn't very fast, and just did a 180 turn, he sticks behind you at 400~500 yards and the separation isn't as high as you expected.
So, he lands behind you at about 450 yards, with about 100 yard separation per second - you are definately outrunning him, but not fast enough to outrun bullets. So, he sprays behind you and either you go down, or get scared by the dangerously close bullets and jink. If you jink, you lose the speed advantage and the separation becomes slower, or he even might catch you.
*Shrug* That's usually what happens. Is that realistic or not, I dunno, but you can do it against all planes with all planes if the timing and speed is right.
If the other guy is doing an early turn, I should be able to see that. If he starts the turn after or close to the HO merge, he will be at list 2K behind when he is done turning.
In your example however, if he does eend up on my six at d400 with 100 sep per second, by the time he lined up his guns, I should bee out of range. Again, I am talking about the times where the NIKI catches the LA7 after performing some wired turn. If this is not pag, then its a bug.
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You underestimate the importance of timing, ded. Also, how fast the N1K2 turns at speed.
If indeed the instance happens as you describe it, then what we should be seeing is a N1K2 coming in a perfect straight level merge, making a flat 180 turn, losing speed by the turn, and then, as he lines up behind you, actually gaining speed in an incredible state.
Now that's something worthy to be called an anomaly or a bug.
..
The problem is, everybody claims that's what happened to them, but nobody presents any evidence to it.
I'm not sure if I have the recordings still left in my archives, but what I do remember, is the actual speed and maneuvering range of the N1K2, when I first analyzed that "magic turn", was incredibly different from what you simply anticipate in the other side's cockpit.
Maybe the N1K2s retain too much energy during a high-G turn, even a timed one - but as I said, all planes can do that. I've seen those P-51D/190D-9 aces doing the same thing against my G-10.
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Lead turn does it, its mostly an illusion you are pulling away but slowly because of the angles. Of course the dweeb planes do it automatically for the guy yanking the stick, and of course slowly doesnt matter if he can get 1 hit with his tardpanos.
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he did a low g turn and was most likely packing some e to boot..
I didn't see it but that sounds like what happened..
I do that alot, start turn early (lead turn but I am only pulling 3-4 g's; loss is minimal and then use what Ack Ack described by unloading plane to 0 g to re-accelerate...)
Also when around La7's never take anything for granted.. its the dweeby-est plane in the game and its raw speed and acceleration are a match for anything thats not perked (g10 excluded.)
Just my opinion though...
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
On a side note, I love doing this to slimpikn as it's always guaranteed to make him cry cheater or hack. But then he always cries cheater or hack.
ack-ack
LOL:rofl
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Originally posted by Kweassa
You underestimate the importance of timing, ded. Also, how fast the N1K2 turns at speed.
If indeed the instance happens as you describe it, then what we should be seeing is a N1K2 coming in a perfect straight level merge, making a flat 180 turn, losing speed by the turn, and then, as he lines up behind you, actually gaining speed in an incredible state.
Now that's something worthy to be called an anomaly or a bug.
This is my biggest complaint about the niktard. There have been plenty of times where I've been in a shallow dive approaching a nik from his high 6. The nik turns into me, and even pulls his nose up a little. Knowing the HO is coming, and not going to engage in a turn fight. I'll roll around the HO and blow through, keeping my view on the nik. I start a shallow climb, maybe 1000ft/min to keep my 350+ speed longer and watch the nik, at 500-600yds it's planform. At 800-850yds it's nose on me, and usually starting spray and pray so I ease the nose down to about 500ft/min descent. At 900-1000yds the niktard leaps forward like it's got a pair of RATO units, sometimes coming as close as 400yds before falling back again (and the only thing to save my pony here is if the niktard can't shoot).
I've been in a 70degree dive, at 350 true and accelerating rapidly when I pass a nik that had to climb at least 4-5000ft nearly vertical to try to HO, flop over when I pass, and catch me like I'm standing still.
The niktard is the only kite I consistently see this kind of crap from. Lead turns don't account for these kinds of situations. It's a dead horse I think, though...
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I don't deny there "could" be something wrong with the N1K2. Anything's possible. Personally, I've also met situations which just urges to make the word "bullshi*!" pop out from one's mouth.
However, it can never be emphasized enough that most of the 'impossible' instances aren't really impossible at all. If we take everyone's word for what happened to them, there's practicaly nobody who'd be shot down in the first place.
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The perception of the guy being shot down is always biased, my own included.
There are a couple of things that can occur that would look like the guy had rockets on his ride.
Figure the merge, if everyone is 350-450mph then you have closure at 700-900mph. Network lag really becomes obvious. A lot can happen at these speeds over 150msec (300msec counting his and yours). This is where the timing thing happens. A lot of folks start pulling up (vertical turn) right at the merge, sometimes you catch them starting early if they misjudge the e-state. Gives you a good cold side shot if they do. If their timing is good they are halfway through the turn at the time you pass them. If they managed the vertical move well, they won't loose much velocity but they will gain enough altitude that an unloaded dive will allow them to match the speed.
Another thing is avoiding the head-on. I see a lot of folks giving away position to avoid this. I mean radically avoiding, providing a lot of vertical or horizontal seperation. Ideally, you don't want to have more than 1/4 of the turn radius for seperation and less is better. You really don't want to be shot in the face with a handful of 20mm either. I usually try to pass under and to the side, just under a wing. Its hard to push negative and make a shot. The only times I've been hit doing this is by misjudging the bog's e-state, he's usually slower than I thought when he gets hits on this move.
It's hard to say what happened without being there in the cockpit, I will say that 400+ is a little slow with less than 6K AGL n a P51. :D
IMHO,
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I don't deny there "could" be something wrong with the N1K2. Anything's possible. Personally, I've also met situations which just urges to make the word "bullshi*!" pop out from one's mouth.
However, it can never be emphasized enough that most of the 'impossible' instances aren't really impossible at all. If we take everyone's word for what happened to them, there's practicaly nobody who'd be shot down in the first place.
K, I think I made it clear that I see this once or twice a month. I also made clear that I can tell the diference between a plane turning and a plane looking for HO. I don't understand what you are trying to defend here. I was just wondering if net lag can be the issue. What is all this crap about having avidence of it happening and not taking our word for it?
:confused:
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Strange that I never encounter this phenomenon. Is it perhaps because I recognize the onset of a lead turn and take the necessary measures to counter it?
-- Todd/Leviathn
(The answer to the above question is "Yes," BTW)
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I got the same BS statement from someone in the MA yesterday but I won't name names. He was in a 51D heading the opposite direction in a shallow climb. I was in my usual Mk. IX at approximately coalt and 1.5k I started a shallow dive away. I turned back in nose down at approximately 1k out then slipped up behind him. He ofcourse screamed out BS on channel 1. I think he had bombs on board too but not sure.
Either way he could have countered by turning into me or nosing over when he saw the lead turn coming. I get hit by this every now and then. But if I see it early enough I'll just turn into there path. Then ofcourse when the engagement is over get gripped at cause of an HO even though I don't fire unless absolutely necessary.
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it's no fun if you don't name names.
:mad:
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K, I think I made it clear that I see this once or twice a month. I also made clear that I can tell the diference between a plane turning and a plane looking for HO. I don't understand what you are trying to defend here. I was just wondering if net lag can be the issue. What is all this crap about having avidence of it happening and not taking our word for it?
Well, to put this 'crap' so you can understand it better:
"come up with a film, or your claim means nothing."
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Well, to put this 'crap' so you can understand it better:
"come up with a film, or your claim means nothing."
lmao
I'll start filming everything from now on just so my claims can mean something to you. After all, I do care about what you think.
lol
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Originally posted by dedalos
I'll start filming everything from now on just so my claims can mean something to you. After all, I do care about what you think.
Seeing as how HTC also requires film to substantiate any claims of cheating or strangeness, I think you should follow his advice.
It's not about caring what he thinks, it's about providing proof beyond conjecture. No film, no proof.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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lag effects and the HO lead turn.
if you work this out the faster you are going compared to your adversary the worse it looks to you when he performs a good lead turn.
Lag produces the effect of you towing a target drone behind you.
The faster you go the further behind you the target is.
When you are both head on looking at each others targets the separation is the same for both of you. Even if you are at different speeds.
However due to your high speed your target is further behind you than his is behind him.
He will have some out of plain separation for the lead turn to work properly.
He will start his turn well before you see the cross but he is leading your target location not your location.
As he performs the turn your target will move from being on the other side of your location to being on his side of your location his out of plain separtion will move to an in plain separation which will seem to close rapidly as the angle changes.
Equally if your target was 200 yards behind you before it is now 400 yards closer to him (relative to your location)than it was before.
The closest his target ever got to you was when it crossed your location as he was actually lead turning your target.
The greater the disparity in speeds the worse it seems. Lag in terms of time is the same which suits him. He can turn quicker at 200mph(assuming that is his BCS) and yet you see it no sooner.
The distance closure you see is a function of him closing the out of plain separation. The quicker he does 180 the worse this seems. Its not the speed of his AC its the speed of his turn. (ie degrees/sec are more important at this point than mph at this point)
Having said all this its still a very difficult manouvre to perform properly. It's basically a full g, blacked out brake turn with bogie well under his nose untill the last second.
Too early and you are warned. Do it way too early and a barrel roll from you could deliver him an early bath.
Too late and he blew a load of e to no effect. (usual out come)
He has to judge the turn perfectly while blacked out.
He is praying you made no out of plain movement during his manouvre. (He can't see you)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Seeing as how HTC also requires film to substantiate any claims of cheating or strangeness, I think you should follow his advice.
It's not about caring what he thinks, it's about providing proof beyond conjecture. No film, no proof.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Agreed, if I was trying to prove something I would need a film. But I am not. I just mentioned that I see that happen once or twice a month (thats not a bad thing considering the time I spent in the game) and was wondering if net lag could cause it. Thats all. I was not complaining or attacking anyone. I do the lead turn all the time and get killed by it a lot. No need to explain to me what a lead turn is or tell me I don't have a case with no film. It was just a simple question.
PS. I am nor reffering to you here:aok
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Just curious - a few posts stated they started their lead turns at 3-400 out. Are you all wired directly to HTC? Starting at 300-400, he'll be landed and admiring his k/d ration before I get around.
If I start later than 1.2 at 400ias, I'm not getting anything closer than 800-1000. How can you get a shot starting a lead turn at 3-400? I'm assuming you mean in a merge where there isn't a lot of side to side separation, cause thats kind of different.