Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: lasersailor184 on January 14, 2004, 05:56:15 PM
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Most of the time I get in a fight, i'm slow, gaining altitude, and at a low altitude.
Well, I don't get in a fight, I just make it a little more difficult for me to get shot down.
But anyway, what are some defensive moves for these situations?
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Punisher
what plane are you refering to? what speed would you say your at? low alt as in 1k , 2k , 5k?
When low and slow and have enemy in on you, go nose to nose merge, this will make him either have to climb after merge(if he don't HO you) or at least reverse causing him to slow down and allowing you time to gain more alt or speed, if he comes in from high 6 you can rollout / snaproll/ barrel roll and make him miss/overshoot and if you quick enough possibly give you a quick snapshot at him
also if he comes in from behind the 3/9 line with you slower if you can make him miss the first attack you have a good chance at setting him up for a scissors if he is unknowledge able enough to fall for it, with you being slower you will be able to stay inside each cutback he makes giving you mulitply shots each time he crosses your guns!
main thing is to remember to maintain your Speed/E and grab more each pass he makes while trying to get him to bleed off his energy
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I'm flying the p51b.
Should I nose over to try to get more speed to maneauver?
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have you practiced co-alt merges yet ???
when i see a con the 1st thing i ussually do is level off and build up E (speed) if your still in a climb you are placing yourself at a greater disadvantage . if you catch me in the game just ask and ill help ya out . or ask one of the other trainers if you see them in the TA to help teach ya merges . it will help alot .
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm flying the p51b.
Should I nose over to try to get more speed to maneauver?
First , I would take the P51B up in the TA or offline and wrench it out, by this I mean learn everything you can do with it on each end of its flight envelope, what can you do at high speed right at before blackout/compressing and then learn everything it can and can't do at the other end at stall.
Once you learned the capabilitys of this bird thru out the envelope you will have a broader knowledge of what you can and can not do.
I for one make it a necassary point to know what each plane I fly can and can't do at its stallpoint. because there are times that for some unforsaken reason you will be low slow and have a enemy trying to kill ya off.
learn when to use flaps to help you turn better and when to bring em in to reduce drag, nosing over or pushing forward on stick will help increase speed but you will have to rev eventually, so if you low you can use low yoyo build speed while turning , rev again use high yoyo grab you a little alt
there is no set rule of thumb when to use what, this comes with experience and patience and only way to get it is to keep flying, filming, dieing , and asking questions
but sounds like you are in it for the long haul so good luck and keep at it
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Is there somewhere online that shows pictures of these maneauvers?
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Laser, in most planes, if someone catches me low and slow, I'll try to force an overshoot and get a snap shot...Most times even if you miss, you get enough time to dive and pick up some speed for the fight. My favorite way to do this is either rolling sicssors or sometimes I'll just nose up a little bit and do loose barrel rolls...Althought if you do get a snapshot, in a 51B, most likely your not going to kill him, with only 4 .50's.
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Yeah, I gave up firepower on the p51 d for the maneuverability. It rocks! But don't underestimate the 4 .50's. I was putting quite a hurt out earlier.
Btw, Roscoroo, that's the best advice i've ever gotten, ever. My performance shot up 3x what I was doing the moment I got ingame.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
When low and slow and have enemy in on you, go nose to nose merge, this will make him either have to climb after merge(if he don't HO you) or at least reverse causing him to slow down and allowing you time to gain more alt or speed, if he comes in from high 6 you can rollout / snaproll/ barrel roll and make him miss/overshoot and if you quick enough possibly give you a quick snapshot at him
This is a good way to die.. For example if im in P51 and him in Spit, he does your move TC, i will dive down on him chop my throttle and shoot from 800 out, will extinguish him from the skies. This is no way to "clear" your 6.
Best move to do is a flat turn, once you see him coming closer and closer ( 400-500 ) you turn to the opposite side, therefore making him miss you and overshoot, you keep him in your sites and climb with him praying your close enough to shoot him.
All these moves sound complicated, but what i have always said is practice makes perfect, try some things until you see what works.
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Punisher,
don't overlook the most basic but most important step -- that is identifying as early as possible that you will be jumped in a low E situation.
This allows you to get out of your climb and start gathering (hiding) E as well as initiate the manuever Wildthing described.
It is successful because it pushes many people to fly a "pure pursuit" path towards you. This basically means he puts his gunsight on you and keeps you there as he closes to guns range.
This is actually a GOOD thing as it makes his shooting angle more drastic. As he gets into guns range reverse your turn. This will cause the overshoot you want. At this point you can decide to press an attack or unload for an escape.
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Originally posted by WldThing
This is a good way to die.. For example if im in P51 and him in Spit, he does your move TC, i will dive down on him chop my throttle and shoot from 800 out, will extinguish him from the skies. This is no way to "clear" your 6.
Best move to do is a flat turn, once you see him coming closer and closer ( 400-500 ) you turn to the opposite side, therefore making him miss you and overshoot, you keep him in your sites and climb with him praying your close enough to shoot him.
All these moves sound complicated, but what i have always said is practice makes perfect, try some things until you see what works.
you refering to everything i said, or just the snaproll/barrelroll stuff? or just the go face to face?
I wouldn't climb toward a 51 that was fast and me low E. you would be a sitting duck for the flop over when you stall.
I am not saying you are wrong WldThing heck you are a well know killa of the skies, but I have had many a success in doing snaprolls when a faster attacker ins on me, and cause him to overshoot or miss .
I could see where 1 might think going nose to nose would be iffy though, since it is so easy to be hit with anything near a HO shot.
and I have always thought doing flat turns you gain no E and probably will lose some. IF you done say 3 to 5 flat turns , while already low on E then how would you possibly be able to climb up the 6 of your enemy if he is keeping his speed up?
I am curious on this subject, please explain sir.
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Well, i've been building up E by accelerating just horizontally like you've said. I've had great success with it. I'm only getting shot down at the end of the fight now.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
and I have always thought doing flat turns you gain no E and probably will lose some. IF you done say 3 to 5 flat turns , while already low on E then how would you possibly be able to climb up the 6 of your enemy if he is keeping his speed up?
I am curious on this subject, please explain sir.
Well your not pointing out how fast the enemy is, what alt im at, if the con made any passes yet... etc, many factors come into play if your gonna reverse someone..
But Lets just take for example, im on the Deck 2k, and i just got done fighting a spit that was co alt with my spit, Little slow but im gaining momentum.. Here comes a 109 Hovering above me, 5k for say.. He hasnt made any passes yet, and my speed is at about 200-230 mph.. So finally after a few seconds he dives on me, high 6 o clock.. I see him coming i pull off into a gentle Turn, as he comes closer and closer i pull harder... I see him shooting, and as soon as i see him shoot bullets i will climb up into an angle and barrel roll on top of him... What you have to remember is that the 109 is probebly a little blacked out since he is trying to follow me into my climb, therefore has no idea where i am yet.. I kick full rudder in the barrel roll to get around him faster..
Sooo what it comes down to at that point is where and how quick you made the reversal to be able to shoot and kill that bogie... If you did the reversal right you should be on his 6 depending on his speed of course.. If he is farely fast then of course you will be farther from his 6 (350-400) .. And if he is slow from pulling some G's you should be in the range of 250+.. Remember this is all in theory, but this is what goes thru my head, in a much faster rate. BTW forgot to include, LUCK is good too
:)
and I have always thought doing flat turns you gain no E and probably will lose some. IF you done say 3 to 5 flat turns , while already low on E then how would you possibly be able to climb up the 6 of your enemy if he is keeping his speed up?
And to get back to your original question, there is always E to climb, just how far you climb is the key ;) .. When you go up even though you may not climb for long, you have to remember you will gain some E back during you small altitude increase by diving back down.. Etc Etc, the fight continues.
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I think id listen to WldThing He is one of the best in the game .
He is basically talking about getting the nme A/C to dive in overshoot and getting the quick turn on them for the shot ... its one of the best moves you can do when the nme has the alt adv , and you have the turn adv .
What your doing is tricking them into making a quick high G turn and losing E very fast , and sight of you .
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I understand ya WldThing, and yes its much easier to visualize when you have speeds and alts entered into the equation plus plane types.
I had assumed (probably where I messed up by assuming) we were talking about Punisher in a P51B , which doesn't accelerate all that fast like some other planes , spits, La7s , 109s and he was already low on E as in speed and no alt trying to climb out on takeoff.
I for one don't want to mislead anyone, is reason I asked for you to explain. and I thank you
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Didnt see the most common low-E situation mentioned in detail so...
Often the MA is so busy, it is wise to just get out of the way of the closest threat, rather than getting tied up trying to fight the closest threat.
If someone is diving on your 6 and they are clearly way faster than you, wait until just before they are in gun range, and reverse under within 45 degrees of vertical.
Watch their reaction while you're doing this. If they try to follow your turn, they will only turn a big arc around you and overshoot, or compress and end up much lower. If they start to follow for a shot then brake, you are at least faster than when you started, and going opposite directions. If they pull up, then you dont even have to complete your reversal, and can start planning the next step to surviving.
One key point to remember about a bogie on your 6 is that unequal E states=managable, equal E states=very bad. In this situation if they are much faster there is only a brief window for a shot at you.
Where Wildthing is describing a series of flat turns, he is not only evading, but he is also keeping speeds unequal, closing the window, and positioning to have a shot on them as they blow by. Very efficent.
Where in some situations I suggest allowing them to dive, and just keep flying along till the last second, you would be unequalizing speeds as long as possible, then pulling a speed gaining manover at the last second. Also very efficent.
The strategy in defending in a situation like this is to farm out the E difference to your advantage, either by seeking an overshoot, or evading enough times that the E difference becomes small enough for you to go on the offensive.
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Don't let yourself get low(under 5k) AND Slow (under 300IAS).
That Is step 1. If you want to furball, get a Spit,Yak, N1K2.
Mustangs, B or D are not the best at anything, but they do everything well.
Your SA should be keyed to that. Always leave yourself an exit.
If you have , you can always dive out and get altitude again.
About the only thing you should try to dogfight in a 51, low and slow, is another 51.
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Originally posted by Stegahorse
About the only thing you should try to dogfight in a 51, low and slow, is another 51.
Should add, P47's, P38's, F4U's, Tiffies, Most LW Rides, La7, La5... Those are the ones i can think of right now..
P51 is capable to put up quite a stall fight if flown properly.
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I'm doing really well in dogfights with the p51b. ATM, i'm only getting beaten by spitfires and LA7's, as long as I don't make a stupid move.
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>>as soon as i see him shoot bullets i will climb up into an angle and barrel roll on top of him<<
Can you put this in distance, because a lot of folks don't use tracers. I'm guessing 600-700 yards at 280?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm only getting shot down at the end of the fight now.
Most of the time, me too.
I usually wait till the end of the fight to shoot down the other guy too.
That's the best time to do it.
;)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>as soon as i see him shoot bullets i will climb up into an angle and barrel roll on top of him<<
Can you put this in distance, because a lot of folks don't use tracers. I'm guessing 600-700 yards at 280?
400-500 yards usually..
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Ooh, I like getting in under 200 yards and then hitting them. But my guns are set at 300 because I can't have my way all the time.
But anyway, thanks Roscoroo for the merges lesson. It really helped.
Hehe, and that time you strafed the runway, you had no less then 7 people on you (not including me). You turned and I lossed you. I rolled to see where you were and I drop about 50 yards behind you.
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So if I'm seeing 4-500 yards he's seeing 2-300 yards at 280? Isn't that a little close? I mean if I understand right, i.e., this is the ponit you start the move. I looked at the film you posted, and I think that is the move you're talking about. Going from that, it seems at 4-500 you are starting the second part ( i.e., his flight path almost perpindicular to yours in the 6 view and you are starting the roll back into his plane so you're about level on his 6 as he passes you for about 300 yard snap shot).
Then again, in all likelyhood I'm totaly confused :)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Ooh, I like getting in under 200 yards and then hitting them. But my guns are set at 300 because I can't have my way all the time.
But anyway, thanks Roscoroo for the merges lesson. It really helped.
Hehe, and that time you strafed the runway, you had no less then 7 people on you (not including me). You turned and I lossed you. I rolled to see where you were and I drop about 50 yards behind you.
your welcome . If you want to do some more work just give me a yell . You picked up what i taught you very fast .
P,s on that run i egged the vh . zoomed out killed a la 7 grabbed alt (saw the target rich enviroment )came back down the runway killed 3 more . then turned and burned for one more pass i got two more for a total of 6 kills and was in so deep it was just a matter of time befor someone ran me down and killed me :rofl it just happened to be you
Pss, you may want to set your convergenge out alittle more with 50cals ... just take note at the distance you fire at the most and try setting accordenly mine all vary in each type of plane as for gun type and what i use that peticular plane for .
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Lol, I fire mostly at 150 yards. But I need to stretch my convergence out just incase.
was in so deep it was just a matter of time befor someone ran me down and killed me it just happened to be you
I came back to a32 hoping to find some more people. I saw no less then 12 people on a single Knight. So I dove in and fired at the group. ONe quick burst hit about 5 people I think. Was fun dogfighting in a 1 v 25 situation.
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lasersailor as you get more comfortable with the p51b pay attention to what types of planes shoot you down the most .
LA7's , spits ,and niki's i bet .
your gonna want to fly these planes for a tour and get the feel for what they can actually do . as time goes on this will help you alot . you will start automatically guessing/knowing what those planes are going to do and compensate for it.
if i was in a dogfight with those three planes there id ussually go after the niki 1st wiggle and dodge the la7's attempts and kill the spit 2nd . this also depends on what type of spit it is also. a 5 or a 9 because they are almost two different planes .
things might change as to there alts also .
be shure you film your dogfights also and then watch what they did and your mistakes
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Lol, I've killed a lot of Spits, 190's and P51D's lol.
For some wierd reason, I like going after the p51d. Show them who's the real boss.
But anyway, I pretty much know what I messed up right away.
Lastly, I've seen a few planes yaw left and right really quickly when i'm on their tail. What is this?