Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wolverine on March 27, 2000, 04:02:00 PM
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For those that havn't seen it, here's the best gun camera footage i've come accross.
6 minutes.
10 different engagements.
1. FW190-A7 vs. Liberator - (headon, disturbing)
2. FW190-A6 vs. Liberator - (low 6 quarter shot)
3. Bf-110G2 vs. B-17 - (6 shots)
4. FW190-A7 vs. B-17 - (6 shot)
5. Bf-110G2 vs. Liberator - (FAR 6 sniping)
6. FW-190 vs. P-51 - (couple angles, most from 6)
7. FW190-A7 vs. B-17 - (BIGTIME 6 shots, peeloff)
8. FW190-A7 vs. Liberator - (low quarter 6, sniping)
9. FW190-A7 vs. Liberator - (6 shots)
10. Bf-110G2 vs. B-17 - (very disturbing, up close, 6 shots, HEAVY damage)
http://stores.yahoo.com/lib/planestuff/guncam1.mov (http://stores.yahoo.com/lib/planestuff/guncam1.mov)
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Wolverine [wlvrn]
www.wlvrn.com (http://www.wlvrn.com)
33rd Strike Group
www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
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Nice post.
I want my buff in AH to be as tuff as that last buff that was being attacked from behind at the very end of the MOV file.
Did anyone else notice that the buff seemed to take many cannon rounds without going down? Damn that fighter got very close to the tail gunner position at the end, but I'm sure that tail gunner was dead long ago.
How much ammo do you think the fighter used on that buff?
This film makes the buffs in AH look like paper air planes.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Yeah, that last clip is hard to watch. The tail gunner and ball gunner have to be dead there. Too much fire coming in to survive.
The thing is, they way damage is modeled here, a certain "point" takes a certain amount of damage. Once that point takes the alloted damage, it falls off.
In RL, you might have a wing fall off, but it didn't happen often. More likely, you have a bullet disable the engines and the plane slowly looses altitude. Maybe a control surface gets jammed forcing the aircraft down.
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Very thought provoking. Thanks for the link Wolverine.
Can any german speaking members translate the text at the beginning of each movie for me.
Thanks
Pa
Originally posted by Wolverine:
For those that havn't seen it, here's the best gun camera footage i've come accross.
6 minutes.
10 different engagements.
1. FW190-A7 vs. Liberator - (headon, disturbing)
2. FW190-A6 vs. Liberator - (low 6 quarter shot)
3. Bf-110G2 vs. B-17 - (6 shots)
4. FW190-A7 vs. B-17 - (6 shot)
5. Bf-110G2 vs. Liberator - (FAR 6 sniping)
6. FW-190 vs. P-51 - (couple angles, most from 6)
7. FW190-A7 vs. B-17 - (BIGTIME 6 shots, peeloff)
8. FW190-A7 vs. Liberator - (low quarter 6, sniping)
9. FW190-A7 vs. Liberator - (6 shots)
10. Bf-110G2 vs. B-17 - (very disturbing, up close, 6 shots, HEAVY damage)
http://stores.yahoo.com/lib/planestuff/guncam1.mov (http://stores.yahoo.com/lib/planestuff/guncam1.mov)
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well i definitely agree the buffs cant take a lot of punishment in AH
but I also think the 50 cals on the buffs are a little , not strong, too easy to hit with? If you go headon with a B17 in a cannon aircraft, he should be afraid of you not the other way around, 1on1 a buff should go down in the face of cannon. Not quickly, but i think both the buffs guns are overmodeled and its toughness undermodeled.
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hey i can't look at the file .. can somebody post a link with a defcoder for those .mov files please
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Quicktime Mr Quack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Saw/Saintaw
=XO=III/JG2~Richthofen~
GMT T.O.D. SITE (http://www.wardogs.org/ah/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/dorasaint.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
Don't shoot ! I am only an observer......
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-28-2000).]
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link ? Mr. Saint (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/ (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/)
it's right there bud,, install and enjoy..
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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*bump*
Want people to see how much damage our buffs took.
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Wolverine [wlvrn]
www.wlvrn.com (http://www.wlvrn.com)
33rd Strike Group
www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
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Great Site, Wolverine! Thanks
JagdNine
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Did anyone noticed the ranges at which those guys opened fire ?
What's up with 4000 m in one in those clips !!!
Those guys did spray'n'pray of the worst sort...
One thing is for sure - average sim pilot can shoot better in the sim then those guys did in real life... question of fighting time i guess..
THe 190/51 movie is interesting - that pony should be caput at least 3 times...
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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thanks for the link to this film. #10 is a little disturbing. You can see something fall off the 17 as the 109 is approaching... then just sitting there behind it...
No way the 17s in AH could take that kind of punishment.
At the end, where the shots focus on the #1-#2 engines, just the first few pings on one of the engines would cut the wing right off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Very cool, just wish the stupid quicktime screen wasn't 2 inches square.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1884532322.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif)
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All I can say is thank God I wasn't a tailgunner in a bomber during WWII. Man that last piece of the video was brutal.
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(http://members.home.net/makarov/la5mak.jpg)
Mak's Luv Emporium (http://members.home.net/mlagarde)
[This message has been edited by Makarov1 (edited 03-29-2000).]
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Did anyone noticed the ranges at which those guys opened fire ?
What's up with 4000 m in one in those clips !!!
Those guys did spray'n'pray of the worst sort...
Okay your coming in from rear position in your FW and the tail gunners are filling the freaking sky with real lead. You might get the smart idea to open up a little sooner then in cyber land, hope you knock out tail gunner and come in for finishing touches.
In addition, many pilots could not get used to the size of our bombers and would often open up too soon. The closure time, I have read, would seem like forever coming in from behind on those bombers. If I remember correctly the 50 caliber had a much longer effective range, which would also increase the need for a "fruit of the loom" outlet store back at the base. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Just a thought. I noticed the same thing you did.
JagdNine
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Neat films, but hard to see strikes with all the flaws in the film.
Didn't look much different from what we see here.
Main difference seems to be that it was harder to stay on target in real life due to turbulence, prop wash, etc.
Also I don't think their bullets had 1-meter diameter like we have here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I to was struck by how familiure the scene looked. It gave me a chill. I could only watch one film. Haveing seen the effects of modern firearms on the human body. I dont want to start thinking about what was happening inside those planes.
I would just as soon have my little video game be just that, and pray that no one ever does that to another, in RL, again.
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Guys, I believe that movie was from this site:
http://www.planestuff.com/planestuff/lufguncamfoo.html (http://www.planestuff.com/planestuff/lufguncamfoo.html)
These guys have a full 36-minute VHS video from which the .mov file was excerpted.
Maybe consider buying it since we used so much of their bandwidth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-29-2000).]
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Gee funked, go ahead and make me feel all guilty! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Indeed, it does come from that site.
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Wolverine [wlvrn]
www.wlvrn.com (http://www.wlvrn.com)
33rd Strike Group
www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
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wow, some great clips there. I've got a couple questions on modeling in AH...
1) obviously the buffs survive more damage in real life than here in AH based on clips (especially the last one).
2) damage from the .50's on the buff's is overmodeled here to an equal or greater degree..or gunner vulnerability is under modeled.
Any comments?
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Well, I do in regard to number two. Here is one anecdote from someone who was there and evidently had a higher opinion of bomber guns. Taken from The topic Vermillion posted about the German Night fighter pilot:
"On one of these flights, I caught an American pathfinder, a B-24 Liberator, flying by itself. Since I had to climb up, I had to attack from behind, and with not all that much speed advantage.
My 20mm cannons had only an effective range of about 800m against a 1500m range of the very accurate American .50 caliber (12.7mm) machine guns. It took an eternity to fly through their fire, but I finally got into shooting position and brought this Liberator down in flames, the crew barely having time to parachute. After landing, I counted over 50 machine gun hits in my plane."
Sounds very much like what we do here in our virtual world of air combat.
I'd venture to say that he was lucky.
-Westy
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Wolverine - no reason to feel guilty! Thanks for posting the link!
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Guys,
Notice that the clip is in slow motion. My guess is if you see it at full speed, total time on target is much shorter than it seems.
Plus we don't know what armament is mounted on this particular 110 (and many were regularly modified), which guns were firing or even which had ammunition.
On the clip itself maybe you can see it better than I can, but from what I can see in that last clip the fighter pilot missed alot until the very last second. Due to the slow motion you can literally count each cannon shell as it explodes. First you see the ball turet hit (once maybe twice), a couple of hits to the tail gunner station, then he swings over and hits the engine (3-4 times) which begins to trail a black mist.
Whats different from the game? I see bombers take this kind of damage from my planes all the time, and fly off.
And I also have flown bomber sorties, where I recieved severe damage and made it home on two engines with damaged control surfaces and minus the tailgunner. Just ask Camel, we had a great bomber vs. Spitfire battle about a week ago. Where I came home on a wing and a prayer.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by Aerotech:
Can any german speaking members translate the text at the beginning of each movie for me.
Sure... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Jäger greifen an!
would be "Fighters attacking" translated word-by-word... "Fighters incoming" would be more like it though
Zusammengestellt durch die Schießschule der Luftwaffe Juni 1944
Put together by the Luftwaffe Weapons School June 1944
Die Aufnahmen zeigen Angriffe auf Kampfflugzeuge sowie (just guessing on the last word) Luftkämpfe zwischen Jägern. Die eingeklammerten Zahlen geben die von den einzelnen (guessing again) Flugzeugführern geschätzten Entfernungen an
The movie shows attacks on Bombers (can't think of a better translation for "Kampfflugzeuge) as well as dogfights between fighter planes. The numbers in brackets show the distance to the target estimated by the pilot.
1. Angriff
Fw190 A7 - Liberator
Anflug: Von vorne
Anfangsentfernung: 600m (300m)
Abgang: 150m (can't read the word in the brackets)
Fw190 A7 - Liberator
Approach: HO
Initial Distance: 600m (300m)
I don't know exactly what could be meant by "Abgang"... probably the distance between the planes when the attacker turned or dived away.
2. Angriff
Fw190 A6 - Liberator
Anflug: von rechts vorne
Anfangsentfernung: 1000m
Abgang: 400m
Fw190 A6 - Liberator
Approach: HO coming from the right side
Initial Distance: 1000m
Abgang(?): 400m
3. Angriff
Bf110 G2 - Boeing
1. Anflug: von querab
Anfangsentfernung: 2000m
Abgang: 1500m
2. Anflug: von hinten oben
Anfangsentfernung: 250m
Abgang: 50m
Bf110 G2 - Boeing
1st Approach: coming from 3 or 9 o'clock (doesn't specify that)
Initial Distance: 2000m
Abgang(?): 1500m
2nd Approach: coming from behind, high
Initial Distance: 250m
Abgang(?): 50m
4. Angriff
Fw190 A7 - Boeing
Anflug: von hinten
Anfangsentfernung: 100m
Abgang: 150m
Fw190 A7 - Boeing
Approach: coming from behind
Initial Distance: 1000m
Abgang(?): 150m
5. Angriff
Bf110 G2 - Liberator
Anflug: von hinten
Anfangsentfernung: 4000m (600m)
Abgang: 1400m (50m)
Bf110 G2 - Liberator
Approach: coming from behind
Initial Distance: 4000m (600m)
Abgang(?): 1400m (50m)
6. Angriff
Fw190 - Mustang
Anflug: Kurvenkampf
Anfangsentfernung: 100m
Abgang: 70m
Fw190 - Mustang
Approach: Turnfight
Initial Distance: 100m
Abgang(?): 70m
7. Angriff
Fw190 - Boeing
Anflug: von hinten
Anfangsentfernung: 700m (200m)
Abgang: 150m (20m)
Fw190 - Boeing
Approach: coming from behind
Initial Distance: 700m (200m)
Abgang(?): 150m (20m)
8. Angriff
Fw190 A7 - Liberator
Anflug: von vorne
Anfangsentfernung: 1000m
Abgang: 700m
Fw190 A7 - Liberator
Approach: HO
Initial Distance: 1000m
Abgang(?): 700m
9. Angriff
Fw190 A7 - Liberator
Anflug: von vorne
Anfangsentfernung: 600m (300m)
Abgang: 300m (50m)
Fw190 A7 - Liberator
Approach: HO
Initial Distacne: 600m (300m)
Abgang(?): 300m (50m)
10. Angriff
Bf110 G2 - Boeing
Anflug: von hinten
Anfangsentfernung: 600m
Abgang: 30m
Bf110 G2 - Boeing
Approach: coming from behind
Initial Distance: 600m
Abgang(?): 30m
ok that's it... don't think I need to translate that word at the end of the movie right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RD-Redwing
Commanding Officer
Red Dragons Aces High Division
www.reddragons.de (http://www.reddragons.de)
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Originally posted by Westy:
Well, I do in regard to number two. Here is one anecdote from someone who was there and evidently had a higher opinion of bomber guns. Taken from The topic Vermillion posted about the German Night fighter pilot:
"On one of these flights, I caught an American pathfinder, a B-24 Liberator, flying by itself. Since I had to climb up, I had to attack from behind, and with not all that much speed advantage.
My 20mm cannons had only an effective range of about 800m against a 1500m range of the very accurate American .50 caliber (12.7mm) machine guns. It took an eternity to fly through their fire, but I finally got into shooting position and brought this Liberator down in flames, the crew barely having time to parachute. After landing, I counted over 50 machine gun hits in my plane."
Sounds very much like what we do here in our virtual world of air combat.
I'd venture to say that he was lucky.
-Westy
Im sorry but are you using this as an example of how powerful a single buffs guns are? This Me110 took FIVE pounds of 50cal and landed. According to some posts Ive read here his wings should have ballooned and burst, his engine blocks should have been split, the hypersonic waves should have torn his plane apart. In the same story the WW2 pilot points out how many 20mm rounds where needed to bring down a bomber.
Anything can happen once, this might have been an extreme fluke. But it jives with reports from mig 15 pilots in Korea, there planes took 100s of 50 cal and landed.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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No. All my post meant to do was say that some Axis pilots had a healthy respect for the bomber guns.
Some planes got in, took the .50's and kept going, and took the bomber out. Others came in and died. Alot of them did.
-Westy