Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: artik on January 17, 2004, 03:14:25 AM

Title: La5 guns
Post by: artik on January 17, 2004, 03:14:25 AM
Hello each time flying FinRus setup I find out that La5 guns (only allies plane I fly in this setup) makes very low damage.
I remember at least 3 times that I filled up Axis planes with 20mm rounds and... almost no damage.

[list=1]

Remarks - all hits I see as flash on emeny plane they true hits.
I familiar to fly with 109s 3x20mm guns firing guns only without MG so I realise the amount of hits I need to kill with 20mm guns.

in comparison of 109s guns and La5/7 guns I can see they have same damage per round (in lbs):

20mm MG 151/20        109G10          3.55
20mm ShVAK Yak-9U  3.47
20mm B-20 LA-7  3.47


So it is not guns.
I might think that PlaneWeaponLethality settings for Allies country are lower. Probably some mistake in settings? And when loading FinRus setup tables this mistake comes out.

Probably I mistake but it is really strange - I feel flying with 20mm guns like I fly with 50 cal.

So what is possible problem??? (I remaind I do see lots of hits)
Title: La5 guns
Post by: _Schadenfreude_ on January 17, 2004, 05:26:55 AM
Shock!!! you don't think those Finn's are um....."massaging" the scenario they set up do you?

I tried the La5 - couldn't hit a damn thing with it - though I don't have too much of a prob in MA.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Karnak on January 17, 2004, 05:53:51 AM
So far as I know there is no way to selectively set leathality.

Each type of leathality (guns, bomb/rockets and AA) are universal settings.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: artik on January 17, 2004, 07:09:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
So far as I know there is no way to selectively set leathality.

Each type of leathality (guns, bomb/rockets and AA) are universal settings.

No there is

setting PlaneGunLathality is set per country - three variables in setup [1], [2], [3] - they define multyplayers of lathality - for example at TA they are reduced to minimum.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Batz on January 17, 2004, 07:25:38 AM
First: That chart you posted is for damage per rnd in pounds in regards to ground objects not plane lethality.

Second: I doudt PlaneGunLathality has been skewed to favor the Fins.

Third: ShVaks are a great gun in AH as in rl, do you have a film so we can see all those "flash hits"? You do know the La-5FN has just 2 cannon.

Does it happen every time? Does it just occur with the La-5FN?
Title: La5 guns
Post by: artik on January 17, 2004, 07:35:13 AM
Film - unfortunatly no.
I fly only La5 for Allies - like it most (in MA I fly mosly with ShVAKs at La7 looks like they has better balistics then B-20)

Settings - It could be only mistake in settings table - not something for Fins or Rus.

I just try to solve a problem - maybe I do something wrong but....
Title: La5 guns
Post by: brady on January 17, 2004, 12:10:28 PM
We never muck with lethality settings in CT, except for AA of course.

 The La5's guns hit soft espichaly at range do to the same problem that that plaugs the Type 99's and the MG FF's in AH(and other guns), they are artificialy depreaceated in their lethality at range do to the way the lethality at range is figured. Basicaly the further the round gets from the gun the slower it is going so it does not hit as hard on impact and thus does less damage, howeaver HE/HEI rounds are having their chemical componet depleated as well under the present model, HTC is aware of this issue and is I beleave looking to adress it.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: zmeg on January 17, 2004, 12:48:19 PM
The different lethality settingg (0,1 & 2) only affect the type of target, there is no way to set 1 country lower than another.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: artik on January 17, 2004, 04:35:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by brady
We never muck with lethality settings in CT, except for AA of course.

 The La5's guns hit soft espichaly at range do to the same problem that that plaugs the Type 99's and the MG FF's in AH(and other guns), they are artificialy depreaceated in their lethality at range do to the way the lethality at range is figured. Basicaly the further the round gets from the gun the slower it is going so it does not hit as hard on impact and thus does less damage, howeaver HE/HEI rounds are having their chemical componet depleated as well under the present model, HTC is aware of this issue and is I beleave looking to adress it.


Than I understand. I thought all guns damage based on expousure - the weight of the bullet. I can uderstand and it is reasonable for MG to have dependce on distance but canons? Should the main damage be caused from HE? If it is different for different canons then I understand.

Most of my hits are deflection shoots from distance 300-500 yards. I though that canons has different behavior from MG then I understand the problem.

Thank you
Title: La5 guns
Post by: brady on January 17, 2004, 04:43:53 PM
Basicaly to get the most out of the Low velocity Cannons in AH you nead to get as close as posable.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: OverBkil on January 17, 2004, 05:49:22 PM
I have no problems with la5s guns. Brady already said it; get close to target. In la5 that means less than 500 yds. I rarely shoot at targets 300+ yds.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Widewing on January 18, 2004, 09:47:20 AM
HTC's random damage method is part of the problem. How else does one explain hits on the engine cowling knocking off the elevators, or HOs shooting off tail wheels. I have taken do-or-die shots that clobbered aircraft, hit sprites all over it, only to do no damage. That's a serious weakness in AH's combat modeling. Actual gun modeling is highly questionable too.

I have discussed gun modeling with HTC several times over the past two years to no avail. As much as they deny it, I'm convinced that bomber gun effectiveness is artificially raised, likely due to a lack of understanding of what determines accuracy. Unlike computer programmers, I have fired tens of thousands of rounds through M2HB MGs. Bullet dispersement at 1,500 yards is huge, due to the weapon vibration, mount motion, muzzle flip and the relative motion of two moving platforms. Add to that, these guns were aimed via a ring and bead sight! Typically, from a gun test mount on a test range, only about 60% of the rounds will hit the sand trap (1,000 square feet of area) at 1,000 yards, and will be scattered throughout the large trap (the balance will strike the ground or the berm behind the trap). Neither the trap nor the gun mount is moving. At 1,500 yards, the frontal area of a fighter (as little as 20 square feet) is about 2% that of the trap. Statistically, a single hit would be unlikely. Yet, wings get chopped off....

As an experiment, we have flown an A-20G to 1,000 yards dead astern of a B-17. The A-20's gun conversion was set at 500 yards (meaning that the cross-over point was 500 yards, and in a perfect universe, with no other undermining factors, the guns should have the same concentration at 1,000 yards as at a range of 1 foot. All guns in top and ball turrets were emptied prior to the test. When in position, both fired on each other. The A-20 was obliterated, the B-17 suffered only a few hits. We did this 3 times. Considering that the A-20 had 3 times the number of guns (the same guns too) and all were concentrated in the nose, it proved to my satisfaction that the bomber guns are deliberately or mistakenly over-modeled. We repeated the test with the P-38 replacing the A-20. Results were the same.

Finally, I have discussed this on usenet and e-mail with several veterans who flew as gunners on bombers. Two were tail gunners (B-17 and B-24). Each agreed that hitting any fighter at ranges beyond 600 yards was more luck than anything. Actually shooting off wings, well, not one of them ever saw that happen.

As long as the simple and random damage model exists, as long as bullet dispersion physics is modeled as it is, players will be forced to deal with wildly unrealistic results.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Batz on January 18, 2004, 10:32:49 AM
Quote
Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern from a B-17 during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils

For the B-24 it was:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils


First Ah gun lethality relies mostly on velocity at impact. This is why rounds like the Type 99 Mk 1 and mgff are not that effective outside 225yrd in AH. There was a long thread on AGW where this same phenomenon was discussed. Brady read it so he can fill you in if he feels like beating that horse again.

Secondly, when attacking bombers from 6 o'clock you need to figure in your speed as well. You are flying into the bullet. So even though range maybe 1000yrds the bullet isn't traveling that entire distance. This ties in with what I said above. This bullet will have a greater velocity at impact thus causing more damage. HT has said and other have tested and confirmed that the bomber guns do not 'converge'. Even though all guns maybe firing at you they don’t all hit at the same spot.

Now the bomber gunners are the most stable gun platform in ah next to the field guns. There's no vibration etc. Just aim and fire.

I personally like the ShVaks in ah and have been killed and killed plenty with them. I don't know the answer to Artik's problem other then maybe lag or so other anomaly affected him. Is this a constant problem with the La-5FN?
Title: La5 guns
Post by: artik on January 18, 2004, 10:55:23 AM
Quote
Is this a constant problem with the La-5FN?


Yes problem when I fly La5 when I fly 109 - no such problems.
But I think if the weapon leathality depends on the distance for La5 much more then for 109 then it is reasonable that I had problems with shooting enemies down.

I familiar to make good deflection shoots in BnZ when the target is in approximatly distance of 350-500 yards (and hit the target ;) ). So if La5 guns loose they perfomance on such distance then it is understandable why I didn't get my kills.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: scJazz on January 18, 2004, 11:11:12 AM
Straight from Soda's Aircraft Evaluation Site at http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models.htm (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models.htm)

Quote
Notwithstanding having the La7 around, the La5 probably lacks popularity for this main reason .  It carried two nose mounted 20mm cannons with 200 rounds/gun, which is good on paper but the problem is they are quite inaccurate and don't hit as hard as other 2 cannon planes.  Typical firing ranges for accurate hits need to be under D300, usually under D250.  Part of the problem is likely to deal with a slower rate of fire because of the synchronization of firing through the prop.  This makes it a bit easier for enemy aircraft to slip between rounds or take fewer hits in a short period of time.  This certainly will turn off the spray and pray crowd as the La5 is almost totally incapable of being effective in that role.  For a more patient pilot though who can get close for his shots, the La 5 still offers a decent kill potential against even the most heavily armoured enemy aircraft.


Quick bursts won't work. The comments regarding AH gun damage are quite true when discussing A2A damage. Even when firing on a manned ground vehicle. Weapons like the MG/FF and ShVAK suffer enormous penalties in these situations. Oddly enough they are reasonably close to accurate when used against Buildings, etc.

So far the list of things wrong with the damage model concerning Aircraft mounted guns is...

1) Burst dispersion is nearly non-existant re: Widewings comments
2) Burst dispersion at ranges under 150 yards is actually bugged. Rounds will actually zing off at strange angles and totally miss. re: my testing on ground target damage
3) Damage model unfairly penalizes explosive HE/HEI rounds which are low velocity/high explosive. re: Brady, etc...
4) Bomber mounted guns have strangely effective operation. re: Widewing's comments

I think a neat test would be to take an A-20 up and sit off the wing of a B17 and unload with the turret. Repeat with B-17s ball or top mount. It would take the relative velocity component out of the test as both planes would have 0 relative motion.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Batz on January 18, 2004, 11:41:22 AM
The ShVAk has a slightly higher muzzle velocity then the mg151/20mm and a slightly higher rate of fire. It has a flatter trajectory then the mg151/20mm.

Artik didn't say he had trouble getting hits he was saying that it took many hits to get the kill.

The ShVAK has 3.9g TNT compared to 9.92g TNT in the mg151/20mm.

I think the problem here is in expecting the same results from 2 different guns. Artik said he is used to 3 x 20mm mg151 on the 109s. Well at similiar ranges the 3 x 20mm mg151 should easily cause more damage then 2 x 20mm ShVAK.

Tony Williams site confirms this

mg151/20mm = 20x82 = TW Power Rating = 16
20mm ShVAK = 20x99R = TW Power Rating = 11

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

I suggest get in closer and fire at convergence and you will have np. :p
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Reschke on January 18, 2004, 12:13:43 PM
I will comment on this here since it is my setup.

There is no difference in lethality of aircraft guns between any country. That is the one area that was checked several times by me while putting the setup in.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: LtMagee on January 18, 2004, 01:03:54 PM
FM2 is tuff as a tank, just as the A6M series fighters during the PTO maps.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: artik on January 18, 2004, 01:05:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
The ShVAK has 3.9g TNT compared to 9.92g TNT in the mg151/20mm.


Then my mistake that I compared guns lathelity vs ground target (shown in the table at beginning).

I tought that relation between different guns damage vs ground and air target the same. G1_vs_ground/G2_vs_ground=G1_vs_air/G2_vs_air
That is my mistake actually if mg151/20mm carries twice TNT then ShVAK than it is very reasonable.

Actually I have to remaind that Guns vs Ground Targets model in AH is totaly wrong. You can destroy CV (8.000lb bombs hardness) with 110G2 guns (if you survive of ACKs ;) )
Title: La5 guns
Post by: brady on January 18, 2004, 01:12:22 PM
To the best of my knowledge the Aircraft do not have a random damage model, only the GV's do. Honestly I think the aproach to damage on the GV's is, while potentialy more frustrating, more realistic.

 I beleave the reasion the Planes do not is that they felt to many people would complain about it.
Title: La5 guns
Post by: Batz on January 18, 2004, 01:16:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by artik
Then my mistake that I compared guns lathelity vs ground target (shown in the table at beginning).

I tought that relation between different guns damage vs ground and air target the same. G1_vs_ground/G2_vs_ground=G1_vs_air/G2_vs_air
That is my mistake actually if mg151/20mm carries twice TNT then ShVAK than it is very reasonable.

Actually I have to remaind that Guns vs Ground Targets model in AH is totaly wrong. You can destroy CV (8.000lb bombs hardness) with 110G2 guns (if you survive of ACKs ;) )


Yup :p

That chart maybe of use when calculating the number of rounds it will take to kill a VH for instance but it’s of little relevance when determining plane v plane lethality.