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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Minotaur on November 03, 2000, 01:45:00 AM

Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Minotaur on November 03, 2000, 01:45:00 AM
The below stats use CSN (Composite Success Number) .  This CSN is my own rating system to measure how successful a plane is in the MA.  It is very useful relative success and for noting trends.  The CSN has no exacting quality.

CSN = (Kill+Die)*(Kill/Die)/100

Plane   Tour 4   Tour 5   Tour 6   Tour 7   Tour 8   Tour 9

F4U-1C   313   286   232   336   343   378
F4U-1D   9   11   14   15   25   24
P-38L   77   95   73   102   40   31
P-47D25   0   0   35   38   11   9
P-47D30   0   139   164   172   53   30
P-51D   150   189   111   151   128   120
Spit V   51   33   20   31   23   26
Spit IX   231   284   201   263   170   176
Typh 1B   17   29   16   26   52   113
C.202   2   1   2   3   1   2
C.205   76   89   41   53   23   18
A6M5b   0   42   25   33   25   23
N1K2   153   179   114   151   162   206
Yak-9U   0   28   25   40   54   47
La5-FN   55   30   13   19   22   34
109G-10   128   120   82   170   92   113
109G-6   9   8   15   19   13   16
109G-2   12   13   7   9   9   12
109F-4   6   10   7   7   10   8
190A-5   0   220   213   237   76   54
190A-8   142   106   26   50   46   35


------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Duckwing6 on November 03, 2000, 01:58:00 AM
Interesting how the F4U-1Ds numbers show a pretty steady improvement..

-> Trying to improve the D Hogs score since Tour 4 (and failing miserably  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))

DW6
D Hoggers UNITE
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: StSanta on November 03, 2000, 04:19:00 AM
Look at the A5 before and after the fix  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
N1K from 150 to 206, remarkable.
But Mino, just how did you get these numbers, and what do they signify?

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: -duma- on November 03, 2000, 05:03:00 AM
Yeah yeah Duckwing, don't try to be modest   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Duckwing and Vosper are pros in the D, 20+ kills in 2 days for just 1 death each... I'm just too impatient to dream about a k/d ratio like that   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Duck, you need to convince Blitz to fly the D. He's wasted in that C.   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)


------------------
  (http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/temp/dumad.gif)  

Duma
XO, VMF-115 'Joe's Jokers' - Red Dragons AH Division
'Fierce And Bold
With Courage And Honour'
 http://www.reddragons.de (http://www.reddragons.de/aceshigh)


[This message has been edited by -duma- (edited 11-03-2000).]
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Sancho on November 03, 2000, 07:42:00 AM
Reposted in monospace font:

CSN = (Kill+Die)*(Kill/Die)/100

Plane   Tour 4  Tour 5  Tour 6  Tour 7  Tour 8  Tour 9
F4U-1C  313     286     232     336     343     378
F4U-1D  9       11      14      15      25      24
P-38L   77      95      73      102     40      31
P-47D25 0       0       35      38      11      9
P-47D30 0       139     164     172     53      30
P-51D   150     189     111     151     128     120
Spit V  51      33      20      31      23      26
Spit IX 231     284     201     263     170     176
Typh 1B 17      29      16      26      52      113
C.202   2       1       2       3       1       2
C.205   76      89      41      53      23      18
A6M5b   0       42      25      33      25      23
N1K2    153     179     114     151     162     206
Yak-9U  0       28      25      40      54      47
La5-FN  55      30      13      19      22      34
109G-10 128     120     82      170     92      113
109G-6  9       8       15      19      13      16
109G-2  12      13      7       9       9       12
109F-4  6       10      7       7       10      8
190A-5  0       220     213     237     76      54
190A-8  142     106     26      50      46      35

Look what happened to my beloved Jug. <sniff>

[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 11-03-2000).]
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: straffo on November 03, 2000, 08:36:00 AM
If you sort and plot the data it's horrible  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
60% of the CSN is constitued by only 5 planes  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)

 (http://www.multimania.com/straffo1/CSN.gif)
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 03, 2000, 05:13:00 PM
Strafo,

The data is faulty.  If you are going to pull bombers out of the chart, you have to pull the killing of those bombers out too.  If you are going to pull ground vehicles.. you have to do likewise.

Over 40% of the F4u-1Cs kills were not against fighters in tour 9.

AKDejaVu
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Maverick on November 03, 2000, 05:42:00 PM
The figures kinda verify the claims that the most prevalent planes in the arena were the F4UC and the Nik1.

Mav
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: straffo on November 03, 2000, 05:51:00 PM
I now but as it's self refenced in this case the comparaison is revelent... I think  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

I cannot explain my tought in english (it's bed time here : 1:00 AM  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 03, 2000, 07:46:00 PM
Sorry Staffo.. its cross referenced.. not self (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

One thing Mino's stats don't show is the CSN for the F4u-1C against fighters actually went down 15%.  Its CSN against ground vehicles went up about 180%.  Maybe people are just responding to an insurgance of ground vehicles?  Hmmm.

I do know that the K/D of the F4u-1C against fighters went down quite a bit this tour.

AKDejaVu
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Minotaur on November 04, 2000, 01:29:00 AM
Thanks Sancho!  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Much better formatting.

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Minotaur on November 04, 2000, 01:35:00 AM
AKDejaVu;
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-04-2000).]
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 04, 2000, 01:24:00 PM
 
Quote
This thread is not intended to flame

I've looked through this thread for any type of flame.. didn't see it.  Maybe you could enlighten me?

 
Quote
The F4U-1C will still lead those other stats as well.

It will lead most.. but not all.  What is the point?  One aircraft will always lead the stats.  Just don't blanket them all together.  If you say it will lead all stats.. show that.. and show by how much. Don't use vague statistics to make broad statements.

  (http://216.26.44.241/ahfilm/tour9f~1.gif)  

Those are the fighter kills/deaths numbers.  That is.. the total times a craft killed a fighter or was killed by a fighter.

BTW.. do you know if the F4u-1C CSN vs fighters went up or down in tour 9?

AKDejaVu

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 11-04-2000).]
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 04, 2000, 03:11:00 PM
 
Quote
BTW.. do you know if the F4u-1C CSN vs fighters went up or down in tour 9?

And the answer is (Fighter CSN from tour8):

 (http://216.26.44.241/ahfilm/tour8FighterCSN.gif)

AKDejaVu
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 04, 2000, 06:03:00 PM
How about some tour 7 vsFighter stats:

  (http://216.26.44.241/ahfilm/tour7FighterCSN.gif)  

AKDejaVu

Note: I had posted a chart with the 109G-10 having a CSN of 200+.  I noticed that and went back to check the data since it was obviously wrong.  There is no way any LW plane could achieve that CSN since they have to rely on LW pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 11-05-2000).]
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Minotaur on November 04, 2000, 09:07:00 PM
AKDejaVu;

Well, at least I now understand our point of contention.

You want to consider fighter vs fighter, only A2A.  IMO this is only but a part of what I consider success in the MA.  None the less, a very interesting perspective.  For example the CSN for the La5-FN might be much higher, should it carry A2G ordnance.

BTW thanks for the charts, they are very nice!   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
 
I consider the success ratio or CSN to be fighter vs anything anytime.  Like I have said before, I make no conclusions.  However; I do use a simplistic approach and I look at only two things:
I do find it a little humorous, that you and so many others seem to focus solely on the F4U-1C.  Sadly it has indeed become a sensitive subject, but totaly worn out and very tired.

(The F4U-1C is at the top of my list for alphabetic reasons and no other)


For myself, I tend to focus on the planes that seem capable, but do very poorly.

 
Quote
By Straffo
60% of the CSN is constituted by only 5 planes

Straffo says it the best.

Salute!   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-04-2000).]
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Swager on November 04, 2000, 11:05:00 PM
Real men fly the Me109 F-4!!

Real brave men fly the MC202!!


HeHe!!!!     (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Fishu on November 05, 2000, 12:37:00 AM
Hmm... WHY would you take out bomber kills from the scores?
Those are VERY important too.

or wan't a prove?  go try kill B-17 in C.202 and then with F4u 1c..
Now.. there comes a little score difference that we possibly can't bypass.
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 05, 2000, 01:21:00 AM
 
Quote
Hmm... WHY would you take out bomber kills from the scores?
Those are VERY important too.

They weren't taken out.. they were separated.  That was done because they are entirely different stats.

 
Quote
And Mino said:

I do find it a little humorous, that you and so many others seem to focus solely on the F4U-1C. Sadly it has indeed become a sensitive subject, but totaly worn out and very tired.

Erm.. let me refresh your failing memory:

 
Quote
IMHO, the Ostwind has too significant of a role as does the F4U-1C.
The more I look at the stats the more I wonder "What if?"

What if, the F4U-1C was not in the plane set? How much more attention would the other planes get. How would it change game as we all know it to be right now?

Look at these numbers closely

With a pointer to this thread.  Notice how I responded well after that?  Don't pretend like you had no intentions of showing anything other than just stats.

 
Quote
You want to consider fighter vs fighter, only A2A. IMO this is only but a part of what I consider success in the MA. None the less, a very interesting perspective. For example the CSN for the La5-FN might be much higher, should it carry A2G ordnance.

Nope.. its just that these figures are used to judge the aircraft in each role.  If that is to be done.. present the data for each role.  You fail to do that.  Post all the data you want.. just don't pretend it shows the whole picture.

If you want to do that.. you are going to have to take the time to research it a little more.  If you don't want to take that time.. you'll have to accept that the data is too vague to really draw any conlcusions from.

If you can get over that.. then we'll move on to the difference between kills, deaths and sorties (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

AKDejaVu
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Minotaur on November 05, 2000, 02:46:00 AM
Ouch!

AKDejaVu;

Thread mixing?  I believe my quote you pulled was from a thread dealing with that very same topic or at least related to it.

Doh....  As usual, you are full of it.  

BTW are you some kind of Net Nanny?  Did some one appoint you the "Official Hanky Spanky AH BBS of High Ranky"?  I must have missed that announcement from HTC.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Should all us players think just like you?  Maybe we could all E-Mail our posts to your office, prior to posting.  This is so they would all get the proper editorial content.  AH according AKDejaVu, now that would be totally cool.  Right?  

Sorry, I digress and I'm off topic...

I guess I need to learn to stop responding to your rubbish.  That is the easiest solution.

At any rate, no thanks for your replies to date.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 05, 2000, 03:06:00 AM
 
Quote
Thread mixing? I believe my quote you pulled was from a thread dealing with that very same topic or at least related to it.

Erm.. who mixed threads?  I came to this thread from the pointer in that one.  Wierd eh?

[
Quote
I guess I need to learn to stop responding to your rubbish. That is the easiest solution

Or.. you could reply by calling me "Official Hanky Spanky AH BBS of High Ranky" or "full of it".

I missed where I insulted you.  I disagree with many of the conclusions drawn from the data you posted. Feel free to insult me any time that happens.

Until then, if you post a total CSN that increases, it may be eroneous to assume that every sub-category increased.  Don't get too upset if that's pointed out.

AKDejaVu
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: CRASH on November 05, 2000, 12:31:00 PM
I think the data suggests that the f4c has an ubalancing effect on game play.  I would conclude that the numbers verify what many of us already know to be true from an anectodal standpoint, that the far superior firepower of the f4c combined with the prevelance of the head on attack is responsible for this result. The f4c's numbers in tour 8 against fiters are almost twice as high as the next plane in line, the nik.  The nik doesnt survive head ons nearly as well as the f4c.  
     It's unfortunate that this trend wasn't recognized and corrected by htc earlier.  IMO any aircraft that only saw 200 or so in operational combat has no business being introduced into a WWII flight sim, except for maybe limited scenario use.  I understand why Htc did it, but after having proven itself to probably be the biggest detriment to game play thus far I'm suprised it hasn't been corrected.  

CRASH
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: Fariz on November 05, 2000, 12:55:00 PM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Swager:
Real men fly the Me109 F-4!!

Real brave men fly the MC202!!


HeHe!!!!      (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Real men fly real planes, not virtual  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 05, 2000, 01:41:00 PM
 
Quote
The f4c's numbers in tour 8 against fiters are almost twice as high as the next plane in line, the nik. The nik doesnt survive head ons nearly as well as the f4c.

Yet in tour 9, the F4u-1C only enjoyed a 22% lead over the N1K2.  The N1K2's k/d increased while the F4u-1C k/d dropped nearly 20%.. its CSN 10%.  The F4u-1C's stats actually went down for everthing except ground-vehicle attacks.  Weird eh?

 
Quote
the far superior firepower of the f4c combined with the prevelance of the head on attack is responsible for this result

It has the same firepower as the Typhoon.  It is less durable than the Typhoon (IMO).  Many aircraft can damage nearly as quickly.  The Spitfires have two of the cannons themselves... the P-38L has one of them too.  I also don't recall surviving more than two pings from an N1K2 or a 30mm 109.

As for the head on attack portion.. can't really fault the plane for that.  You can't only fault the enemy for that either.  I don't recall getting in an HO gun blazing engagement with a single fighter last tour.  I did HO a lanc.  The poor pilot didn't know what to do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)  Pointing out.. I wasn't flying a 1C last tour at all.

The F4u-1C did worse against fighters last tour than it has for some time (at least since tour 7.. don't have data completed for prior to that).  It also did worse against bombers than it did in tour 8 (CSN dropped 30% and K/D dropped 20%).  The only place the F4u-1C did better was against ground vehicles.  It did significantly better in that category.  But then.. why shouldn't it?

AKDejaVu
Title: Tour Stats
Post by: AKDejaVu on November 05, 2000, 01:52:00 PM
Also.. something needs to be pointed out in regards to the CSN.

The CSN does not handle surviving very well.  It needs kills and deaths to calculate its formula.

Did the 1C die 1100 more times this tour than last because it was flown 12% more.. or did it die because it RTB'd 15% less?

AKDejaVu