Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: REVGST on January 18, 2004, 01:58:31 PM
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So, am I the only other avid 40 flyer out there besides my friend Honch? Am I the only person that thinks AH needs the N model P-40? Also, the scoring for a P-40 should be higher, even though I have gained many perks with it, it still takes more skill to fly em than a 51B:aok
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I enjoy flying the P-40, though I wouldn't choose it to fight in a 1 on 1 fight. I love the challenge and skill it takes to win in it. And the P-40N would be nice to see.
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you're asking for a P-40N? Isn't the E good enough ?
Man what a dweeb! :D
Seriously, it would be nice to see the P-40 ENY values readjusted, right now the P-40E is rated better than many planes who eat little hawks for breakfast (P-47D11,Ki-61, F4U-1,La-5, 205 and F4F) and is on par with planes like a 109G-6 and Fw190-A5.
Nobody said the P40 sucks but... it is nowhere near the capability of a P51B yet has the same rating in the MA.
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<--thinks we need bamboo drop tanks for P40b:aok
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I agree with you Wolf. It is much easier to get a kill in a 205 or La5 compared to a P-40. An ENY adjustment is deffenatly needed.
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Also, after reading P-40 pilot's accounts online, they claim that the P-40 was just as manurverable as a Zero. In the MA this is nowhere near true because you stall out easier when turning with the Zero in a fight. Do the flight dynamics of the 40 need to be changed, or am I wrong> Go here to read about the 40....
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling2.html
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Sorry Revgst, but I have to dissagree the zero was way more manuverable then the p-40 could ever imagine being. Take Chennaults tactics for example, he always told his pilots DO NOT TURN WITH THE ENEMY PLANES (which would be the oscarthat he was talking about, but zero was only some 400-500 pounds heavier) they always just zoomed down through a formation of zero's and then climbed back up (basically boomed and zoomed em).
The only time I could imagine the P-40 out turning the Zero is after a 300mph+ dive, and that would only last for about once complete circle then the zero would start to gain on the p-40 in a circle.
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After reading that article you have to remember that all pilots think that their plane is the best. That is all that is coming out of their mouth is just a opinion
The best example i can give of this is that ask people from diffrent countries about diffrent planes from the war people are usually goin to say a plane from their country. Such as Brits would think spit is best plane of war, Amercans would think P-51. So on and so forth. As for me the FW 190 was the best plane of the war but that is just my opinion
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Yes, I do agree with you on everyone has their own opinion about aircraft. Just guess I should believe what pilots were saying, because I know, that the zero out-turns my 40,lol.
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to all that fly the p40.
My idea of challenge is flying the G2 or G6, some drawbacks but some substantial strengths.
What does the p40 have? Drawbacks, sure, but strengths?...
The first line of this post was put there as a preemptive hipshot towards that it doesn't have any strenghts.
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REVGST,
I read Shillings account and I see he defined maneuverability. He also stated several times that turning (dogfighting) with a zero was a bad thing.
Using his definition the p40 seems reasonable in AH.
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Originally posted by REVGST
Also, after reading P-40 pilot's accounts online, they claim that the P-40 was just as manurverable as a Zero. In the MA this is nowhere near true because you stall out easier when turning with the Zero in a fight. Do the flight dynamics of the 40 need to be changed, or am I wrong> Go here to read about the 40....
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling2.html
Go back and review what Erik actually stated; "Of all the fighter planes flown against the Japanese, the P-40 was the most under-rated airplane and the Japanese Zero was the most overrated. Contrary to popular belief, the P-40's larger turning radius did not present a problem when understood, and proper tactics were used against the Japanese fighters. Also its lower rate of climb could easily be overcome. The P-40 which was more than 40 mph faster than the zero, could still climb at a speed that the zero was incapable of attaining. Pilots that tried to dogfight lost their lives. Whereas the hit and run tactic with a faster plane was the only way to fight the Hayabusa or Zero."
Erik was refuting the old argument that the Zero was superior because it could turn tighter circles than the P-40. Point in fact, the Zero was an extremely vulnerable fighter with a very limited bag of tricks. Maneuverability consists of far more than turning circles at low speed. By using the the P-40s fast roll rate, its dive and level speed advantage, and the ability to out-climb the zero at shallow angles (high-speed climbing), the P-40 could handle the Zero or the Ki-43, which it generally did.
My regards,
Widewing
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So widewing, do you feel that the flight model of the P-40 in the game is accurate? Just wanted some feedback form others to see how they felt about the 40. What do you believe the bast tactic is for fighting with a 40? I usually come in high, attack, and zoom back up as far as possible. Once I am almost back on the deck, I hit the WEP and run. Does anyone have better tactis? Thanks for all your help.
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You need to be rather picky in a P40 when deciding when to engage and when not to.
1v1's are fun and are quite easy to win if you know what you're doing. Learn to work the flaps nonstop throughout the entire engagement. Two notches will burn E rather fast, so only use it if you need a tight turn. Like any other energy fighter, the P40 can also use altitude as a bank. Avoid flat turns as that merely expends energy with zero alt gain. Go vertical as much as possible without putting yourself at the top of a loop 100 mph to spare and cons screaming in to pick you off. SA.
2+v1's are the majority of the fights I find in the MA. 2v1 can be won if the other two are average and make a mistake. The odds of surviving a gangbang (on the deck too) are slim, so dont get yourself in that position :)
The P40 is a great ride and many underestimate its abilities. It can hang with the best... for about 2 seconds, then clever maneuvers must be utilized.
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Originally posted by REVGST
So widewing, do you feel that the flight model of the P-40 in the game is accurate? Just wanted some feedback form others to see how they felt about the 40. What do you believe the bast tactic is for fighting with a 40? I usually come in high, attack, and zoom back up as far as possible. Once I am almost back on the deck, I hit the WEP and run. Does anyone have better tactis? Thanks for all your help.
I find the P-40E to be reasonably well modeled. However, the AVG Tomahawk, incorrectly identified by HTC as a P-40B is seriously undermodeled in terms of power. AVG Tomahawks were fitted with hand built, blueprinted engines making about 200 more horsepower than the the P-40B. AVG Tomahawks were faster than the P-40Es they received in the Spring of 1942. This was confirmed by several AVG pilots who stated that the Tomahawk would simply walk away from the P-40E when both firewalled the throttles. Less weight, equal power...
However, the AVG guys preferred the serious improvement in firepower as well as the abiliy of the P-40E to carry a drop tank or up to a 500 lb bomb. The Tomahawks were not equipped to do either.
Erik's favorite fighter was a rather rare little monster built by Curtiss-Wright at their St. Louis plant. This was the CW-21 Demon. Developed from the CW-19 trainer, the Demon weighed in at 3,050 lbs empty, and was powered by a 1,000 hp R-1820 radial engine. Climb at full military load exceeded 4,800 ft/min. When about 50% of the fuel was burned down, climb rate edged up near 5,000 ft/min. It wasn't especially fast at just 305 mph. However, it accelerated faster than any fighter of its genre. In early 1939 it was a genuine terror. By 1940, it was redesigned with a cleaner, inward folding landing gear and the armament was increased from two machine guns to four. Erik, who flew a captured Ki-43, found the CW-21 to be "considerably more aerobatic, utterly untouchable in vertical combat." He was convinced that this little fighter could beat the Hayabusa and Zero at their own game. Few Air Forces purchased the CW-21, the Dutch being the biggest customer. Most CW-21s were destroyed on the ground, and several were captured. Extensively tested by the Japanese, they found it to be everything Japanese pilots valued in a fighter, and concluded that it was an outstanding aircraft. However, it was purely an interceptor. The Dutch completely misused the fighters. Most of the time, they were just getting airborne when Japanese fighters hit them. The few that survived gave a very good account of themselves. One Japanese pilot recalled how horrified he was to watch the little Demons pull into vertical climbs and just keep on going up like rockets. However, 30 or so CW-21s could do little hold off the hundreds of Japanese aircraft set against them.
The AVG took delivery of 3 CW-21s from those allocated for the Dutch. Unarmed and lacking radios all were lost in crash landings prior to making it to China. Contaminated fuel was the cause, with each aircraft suffering power loss while transiting very rough country. All were forced down in bad weather and were damaged beyond economical repair, with one pilot being killed.
My regards,
Widewing
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The AH P40E is essentially invulnerable to A6M2, it might as well be a G10 or Tempset.
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Hey REVGST,
You know I'm a big fan. I have a lot of fun in a P40 and other than an occasional C47 run, its all I've flown for going on 8 tours.
I've read all the flight model stuff, and seen the performance charts and I hear the P40 is slow, can't trun that well etc etc. But I've not experienced it.
Seems that the flight model in AH allows the will of the pilot to affect your performance. I've caught 51s, and outturned zekes simply beacuse I believed that I could. I guess.
I think I can I think I can!
But then again, usually I don't.
Could be the beer.
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Hi Widewing,
Was the CW-21 really that good? I knew that the Dutch (I am Dutch btw) had some, but the little info I had on them dismissed them as basically useless, a vulnerable trainer with armament. Do you know of more (on-line) info?
I think that the Zeroes we have in AH are quite useless, too slow, too vulnerable, can't B&Z. Is still maintain that dogfighting is stupid if you want to live. That having said, a P-40B is so underpowered that once it has depleted it shallow E reserves, it's dead against the A6M
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Originally posted by hogenbor
Hi Widewing,
Was the CW-21 really that good? I knew that the Dutch (I am Dutch btw) had some, but the little info I had on them dismissed them as basically useless, a vulnerable trainer with armament. Do you know of more (on-line) info?
I think that the Zeroes we have in AH are quite useless, too slow, too vulnerable, can't B&Z. Is still maintain that dogfighting is stupid if you want to live. That having said, a P-40B is so underpowered that once it has depleted it shallow E reserves, it's dead against the A6M
Erik wrote about the CW-21 on usenet too. He posted, "I have flown a CW-21, an aircraft built by Curtiss Wright in 1938 that's empty weight was 3050 lbs which was 10 mph faster than the Zero, could out climb the Zero by more than 2500 fpm, and 100 mph faster in a dive faster and had a higher role rate as well. Why didn't the military buy it. Just dumb I guess."
There's little of value on the web. However, much can be found in various books. For example, the CW-21B used by the Dutch was considerably cleanedup aerodynamically. It was able to reach a max speed of 333 mph at 18,000 feet. Additional weight added in during the redesign cut into its climb rate, but a fully loaded CW-21B could still climb in excess of 4,500 ft/min.
One of the factors that hurt the Demon was its light structure and lack of self-sealing fuel tanks. It durability was no greater than that of the Japanese fighters opposing it. Nonetheless, it could handily out-perform the Ki-43 in every category of measurable performance. Indeed, it had a slightly better wing loading than the lightest Ki-43 (23.7 lbs/sqft vs 24.2 lbs/sqft) and a significantly better power loading. Think of the Demon as an over- powered Extra 300 with retractable landing gear and guns.....
Simply stated, it was almost exactly the opposite of what the USAAF was looking for in a fighter.
My regards,
Widewing
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Wow, my topic got a lot more attentionthan I thought it would, wtg guys on a P-40 subject. I have been flying one more than usual and found that I like it the more I fly it, I guess you either have to be drunk, dumb, or have a good sense of humor, right Honch,lol.
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Originally posted by REVGST
I guess you either have to be drunk, dumb, or have a good sense of humor, right Honch,lol.
I'm not sure which one of these traits is the most important, drunk, dumb, or sense of humor so I just try to cover them all.
Have you seen this trailer REVGST?
http://www.skycaptain.com/home.html (http://www.skycaptain.com/home.html)
Honch the skycaptainwannabe
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Thanks for that trailer Honch, a movie that does a P-40 more justace than Pearl Harbor,lol. Hey, do you think we can get a training day sometime so I can learn how you fly Honch?
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I just began flying the P-40B the other night and discovered something I thought was rather interesting, which I hadnt noticed before because of flying the E model. The P-40B can out turn a Spit 5. I had repeated 1 on 1 fights with a spit 5 and repeatedly beat him. I noticed the B is great at reversals, one of the best Ive seen. Now I'm beginning to wonder:
Why doesnt EVERYONE fly this thing???
The only downsides to the B model are the slow speed and the weak guns.
Maybe it just seems good because of flying in H2H. I dont know about that, but I do know that I'm gonna be flying the B for a long time now. :)
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I have flown the B model on occasions, and did notice that it does handle well, but after fewer moves than the E with WEP, I believe it stalls faster. But the times I have lined up on guys with it, I will unload, and by the time the guy reacts to whats going on I have made hime shed a few things,lol..but he still isn't dead. By the time I get on him again, all I see is that annoying Assist on "X".
Ticks me off, never got so many assists in one plane.
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Well, I can't deny that I'm a P-40 fan. But I'll be MUCH more happy to fly the P-40 if it had the Brazilian colors like these one from IL2 ;)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_39_1074904326.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_39_1074904294.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_39_1074904352.jpg)
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Very Cool. How do you post snapshots from the game that you take?
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kurupi, Im always up for a skinning challenge. I'll work on a skin similar to that one. I've been looking for an Idea. If possible, please post a close up picture of the Brazilian insignia on the side of the plane or mail (bnicely_united@yahoo.com) me the pics.
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You can take the snapshots using the print screen key. The shots will be save in the IL2 folder in *.tga format. Then just edit with avaiable editor (I did with Fireworks here) :aok
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I know how to take snapshots in AH, but when I go to put in an image, that weird command promt comes up, what do I type in there?
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On the Brazilian P-40 Ive got the body and underwing done so far, but without weathering textures. A few more days and I should be finsihed.
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me myself have never done that well in a P40
i think the thing that most bothers me is that it climbs so slow when a P47D-25 is siting there with a better climb rate better speed better guns better dive can turn just as good as a P40E with flaps of course
what i liked about the P40 is that its a good diver good turn rate and nice
but everbody has ther own plane they love no matter how bad it is im sure there are people that love the 202
me myself i love 109s and ever now and then i up a 109E-4
but why people dont fly P40's and other older aircraft is because they love flying the badest beast in the game and what is easy to fly and gets them kills is what they well fly most often
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I love the 202 for upping at a capped base, it gives the vulching bastages so few perks :)
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I actually flew a 40B yesterday, and got two kilss in one flight, a M16 and a B-17 (which made me bingo ammo) but it was quite interesting and the enemies must whave been thinking what was I thinking flying that,lol.
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Heres the P40 I made, its not a great picture, but it shows it.
(http://www.81x.com/Authors/391stTAW/p40brazil.jpg)
On the left wing it still has Allied Markings, but I do not know how to get rid of them.
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Hey, that sucka is nice. Can you post a H2H day so I can get the map and skin please. now it matches the P-47-30 scheme. I still do not know how to use that map editor thing, nevermind be able to make skins. If you know a place that has a good walkthrough, please let me know.
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I could host a room, or I could just email it to you. But as I said before, the allied markins are still on the left wing.
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Yes, if you could please mail it to me, I am Pezopaluza14@yahoo.com
THanks
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sent.
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Thanks, where do I put the BMP's, just with the terrain section?
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Well... lemme try to describe this.
All ya gotta do is put the H2Habomb_united.res file into your C:/Program Files/HTC/Aces High/terrains folder. It should be there for ya.
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Thanks, I got it to work.
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Originally posted by United
Heres the P40 I made, its not a great picture, but it shows it.
(http://www.81x.com/Authors/391stTAW/p40brazil.jpg)
On the left wing it still has Allied Markings, but I do not know how to get rid of them.
Good work!!! Lots of things to improve, but comparing with the time that you expended to do it, great job!!! Waiting to the definitive version...:aok
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Originally posted by kurupi
Good work!!! Lots of things to improve, but comparing with the time that you expended to do it, great job!!! Waiting to the definitive version...:aok
Thanks! The one thing I can't really understand is how to get the allied markings off the left wing. It is basically finished but the poor quality picture doesnt show any detail.
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Originally posted by REVGST
So, am I the only other avid 40 flyer out there besides my friend Honch? Am I the only person that thinks AH needs the N model P-40? Also, the scoring for a P-40 should be higher, even though I have gained many perks with it, it still takes more skill to fly em than a 51B:aok
I am a confessed P-40 nut, and AVG fan in general. I often wonder why we have so many 109 variants but only two P-40's? As to which one would be the best to bring into AH, for engine power you'd have to give the nod to the F or L model. I'm partial to the K myself.
(rant mode =ON)
I have no doubt whatsoever that the P-40B we have in AVG markings is porked big time. Quote from Erik Shilling: "It is estimated that in the heat of the battle or disengaging from enemy fighters, some engines had drawn between 1600 and 1700 Horse power. (This would give a power to weight ration of better than even the vaunted Zero had.)
At one time on a photo recon flight, while circling my objective, apparently I had run into my own prop wash, but at the moment thought it was A A fire. I pushed the throttle forward but when I settled down I saw that I pulling 50 in Hg, and quickly reduced it to 40 inches. According to the Horse power chart was 1380 HP."
I say at least if you're going to give us the AVG P-40, give us the handbuilt engines as well. If the hand built AVG P-40 engines could indeed draw around 1,700 horsepower and we had that in AH, I think alot more folks would use it.
I've seen more than one interview on Discovery Wings that said if the P-40 had had say, the Merlin 61 of the Spit IX(1,565 horsepower Mil), or later on the Griffon (2,050 horsepower)engine, it would have been the best Allied fighter of WW2.
I guess it's possible then, that the AVG P-40s, with POSSIBLY 1,700 horsepower, would be right up there as well.
So what if it couldn't turn with a Zero? Nothing could!! Give us the uprated AVG engine and watch the Spits go down in flames.
(rant mode=OFF)
Excuse me, it's time for my Thorazine.
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Im going to HiJack this thread. P38 is wayyyy cooler than that steeeenky p40. :D P38 has been around AH longer.. yet we still only have 1 model of it. I want a 38F or J, and you p40 dweebs can wait!
;)
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Actually paulieb, I agree with you 100% upgarde the modles we allreadys have so that they are at least a little better like some of the ones that were in real life. As for you other P-38 guy, it is allready good enough as it is:D
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I agree, we need the p40n.
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Thank you laser. The only thing though, is that Skuzzy said they were all done upgrading AH, so maybe we can get one in AHII fellas?
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I'm a P-40 fan. :)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109690
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Sweet,lol!
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speaking of unusual markings, heres a Mexican Air Force P47D with the 201 Squadron, the "Aztec Eagles" flying with the USAAF in the liberation of Luzon. The Eagles had mixed US and Mexican markings.
http://www.airartnw.com/images/strike_of_the_aztec_eagles.jpg