Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs2 on January 21, 2004, 08:25:50 AM
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6 rooks have seperated from the herd to chase down a lone knit... they have him low and down on energy and are booming and zooming him in their La7's and typhies...
suddenly two other nits show up! the rooks are now hoplessly outnumbered and worse yet.... they are low and too far from the herd!
They have thrown away all their energy and must now fight. The first three or four die whild still trying to figure out if they have enough e to run while bleating pitifully for the herd to come save them.. the last two fight like cornered rats and flip flop all over in their best imitation of acm... too late the herd sends a party out to save them... the nits are running home and soon they cross that invisible barrier that prudence will not allow rooks to cross without the safety of the entire herd behind them.
fortunately it is only a game and no real rooks were injured but it is a good lesson.... rooks don't get greedy... never turn... never get low (unless you are near your ack or vultching with the herd) and never go out without the entire herd.
and.... never get greedy... sure it's frustrating to fight for that one con with 20 other rooks but it beats the situation described above. That could be you!
So... alt is life... fast late war planes are life... the herd is life... and.. if you pork their fuel they can't fight you.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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What were the Knights flying? Mustangs?
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Hey Laz, do you just hate rooks, or is is something deeper? I find that about all you do is piss on about how we suck. Not trying to pick a fight here, but whats up? Pick on the other country's for a while. Be an equal opertunity slammer.. LOL I wasnt one of those rooks, but I am sure you taught them a lesson. (S)
SkipNutz
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oops i reread your post, my above was probabily out of line. I guess I should reread before I comment. I was trying to make a stab at you for slamming me a few days ago... Sorry
\
SkipNutz (looking dumb)
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LMAO! I think i've only ever seen a rook alone once.
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You'd be glad to know those "Rooks" were all Knits few months ago. Even better, is they were all "Bish" twlelve months ago.
The tards have a rotation cycle among the countries - and we're stuck with what you've so poorly educated among the months. 'Bout time you understood the fact, sheesh!
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Yea... I sometimes tell people after I bait them out of the herd "You really should know better than to fly alone like that".. they usually don't take it the right way though.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
LMAO! I think i've only ever seen a rook alone once.
It was probably me. I tend to be the first guy into battle, hence I'm alone. Then after I've smacked a few noggins and struck up a one-man battle front, the reserves come in.
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Lazs! I think you're turning into a bit of an LA7 whiner, like me. ;) Come towards the light... :D
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what a sad, pathetic generalization whine, not even an original whine topic.
It was a nicely narrated story, but you could have put any country in place of rooks & told same true story, on any given day.
I'm sure that knits would NEVER think of fighting 4on1:rolleyes: (gimme a break).
Get real, get a clue, buy a vowel- somthin----
Anton
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u guys are right... you can put any country in place of the rooks... the rookies simply do it more often these days. that is what is so pitiful.
missing the good ol days when people looked for a good fight.
lazs
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I can hear the violins in the background.
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Lol. The only time I saw a rook alone was because his buddies changed course and didn't tell him.
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Originally posted by lazs2
6 rooks have seperated from the herd to chase down a lone knit... they have him low and down on energy and are booming and zooming him in their La7's and typhies...
suddenly two other nits show up! the rooks are now hoplessly outnumbered and worse yet.... they are low and too far from the herd!
They have thrown away all their energy and must now fight. The first three or four die whild still trying to figure out if they have enough e to run while bleating pitifully for the herd to come save them.. the last two fight like cornered rats and flip flop all over in their best imitation of acm... too late the herd sends a party out to save them... the nits are running home and soon they cross that invisible barrier that prudence will not allow rooks to cross without the safety of the entire herd behind them.
fortunately it is only a game and no real rooks were injured but it is a good lesson.... rooks don't get greedy... never turn... never get low (unless you are near your ack or vultching with the herd) and never go out without the entire herd.
and.... never get greedy... sure it's frustrating to fight for that one con with 20 other rooks but it beats the situation described above. That could be you!
So... alt is life... fast late war planes are life... the herd is life... and.. if you pork their fuel they can't fight you.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Exactly.
I saw about 15 rooks flying into a field at 28k and wouldn't come down. So I took a Ta152 to 33k and to my amasement, there is a la7 at probably 37k or so. I try to get higher, they still beat me in altitude. My gosh, I don't think I have seen many rooks below 7k in the past week, unless they were climbing to get to 25k.
Help me, help the rooks. Atleast the bish horde comes and plays.
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Knights/Rooks/Bishops are all made from the same batch... ;)
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I KNEW I should'a flown last night.
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blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
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Steve your posted reply to this thread was a complete and utter failure in punctuation.
What kind of example are you setting for the children ??
Please..
Think of the children.
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Ehehehe. Nah, there was a fun furball between 5 and 62 Tuesday night. I missed most of it though since my SA overloads at 5 planes :D "Etch, check 6" -er no kdding, there's 30 planes in the sector! I'm exagerating a tad, but it was a kick. And even with 30 planes in a sector, those 6 calls help a lot :) I do have a bit of a stiff neck from looking up at all those rooks :) j/k
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To HELL WITH THE CHILDREN I SAY !!
Wounded missing an elevator down on the deck in an attempt to "egress" to my home field I was bounced by one of those high "rook" spits, who after four or five attempts ended up egressing himself..
On my complement on the fight on channel one I was accused of cheating..
WHOOT !!!
Caps of the night.
Jeez steve, they fuggun drool when they attempt to talk..
We Knights have correct punctuation.
..and wear bibs.
Time for a soul search.
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Hmmm..........
I see lazs2 is BAITING again.....He's a MASTER of it :aok
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Got two to come out of the herd tonight -- I flew to a bish base that was being attacked by the rooks and unexpectedly drew a bishop out to fight me. After we danced, the rook p51s came in high and higher. I extended and was looking for a goon until my tank was hitting a quarter with 3 rooks within 3k and another 3+ just out of icon range.
On egress the ponies were not giving up so slowly we drew away from the pack, two realized their mistake and headed back. One insisted on playing. It was a fun fight, something I've missed lately.
to both the bishop and rook player who decided to engage 1 v 1.
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Bibs?!! I'm left to drool on myself.
Man, with all this tough talk on these types of threads, you'd think rooks never get any kills, with all the deadly virtual pilots who oppose them.
Wow Forhim, you've outscored the rooks 72-64, at least you're in the lead. Let me guess, you only die to rooks when they have huge number and alt advantages right? Well other than sundays, rook numbers are about equal to everyone else's; with each team taking it's turn in the bucket. Ohhh, I know, you only die to rooks on sunday nights!
:aok
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i nevar die to rooks;)
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"u guys are right... you can put any country in place of the rooks... the rookies simply do it more often these days. that is what is so pitiful.
missing the good ol days when people looked for a good fight.
lazs"
You're the pathetic one in this situation.
Karaya
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This has all the ingredients of one of those "Waaaah, people just won't fly the way I want them to!" threads. Hmmm, people used to accuse the strat players of that all the time.
Well boot's on t'other foot now. What goes around comes around. :D
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Lazs, shame i dont have my "I hate rooks." 1 man squad still going (i rejoined hornets) you could have been an honourary member and official spokesperson :D
Knits and Bish should unite and kill rookdom!.......
Actually, nah, its no fun to fight rooks.
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Bishops are yummy.
With regards to lazs....well, he's on his own rotation :D
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furball... yeah, the bish are allways preferable to fight. I think maybe the problem with rooks is all the LW squads... Or maybe.. it is just a combo of the new "strat" and all the new timid players and the weight of numbers on the rook side that are all conspiring to make for a very unfun country to face..... It must be really boring and embarassing to be one when the numbers are like that too.
I think about everyone notices it and that is why it get's such a response (agreement from nits/bish and vehement denial from rookies).
I think moving the fields closer together and not letting fuel drop below 50% would pretty much fix the problem and bring the combat back to AH. It wouldn't get rid of the timid and the late war monsters but it would give the early and mid war planes some better footing. Numbers would not be as big a deal... Win/ win.
lazs
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Originally posted by IHham
I saw about 15 rooks flying into a field at 28k and wouldn't come down. So I took a Ta152 to 33k and to my amasement, there is a la7 at probably 37k or so. I try to get higher, they still beat me in altitude. My gosh, I don't think I have seen many rooks below 7k in the past week, unless they were climbing to get to 25k.
Help me, help the rooks. Atleast the bish horde comes and plays.
No, the Bish horde doesn't come down and play. If you want specific examples with names, read on.
Last night I was tooling around in a Yak9T on the deck (10k since it was AKDesert) when a Bish P51D raid flew over my head, with a couple of Spits and P-38s along for the ride. None of them dropped down to take me on. I couldn't climb up to them so I flew on by looking for the C47 behind them. Out in the distance I see a low con. "Aha! That must be it!" So I set up an offset merge and suddenly the icon "P51 2.1" popped up. As he blew past I saw that it was a B-stang, then he was out at 1.0 by the time I got my nose around. By now it was too late to catch the 51 so I popped a few rounds over his canopy to try and get him to turn. He did, but after he flew past he just kept going. 3.1 ... 4.1 .... 5.1... then on Channel 1 comes Zoso with something like "Rook Yak can't kill me when I'm afk! hahaha!" So I responded with something like "Bish P51B at A199 nice runaway". I never saw him again. Funny how a pilot with friends so close by wouldn't bother to engage a lone Yak9T down on the deck and slow.
Interestingly, they never got troops into the base and the raid died off due to fuel starvation and battle attrition.
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The fields need to be closer together and the fuel should never go below 50%.. your story points out why.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
The fields need to be closer together and the fuel should never go below 50%.. your story points out why.
lazs
I agree. I think field proximity is one reason I like FesterMA map so much. Its a great map for Spitfire Vs, FM2s, Hurricanes, 109Fs and G2s and even P-40Es to fly around on. Long distances at 25% gas at a frontline base simply means that there will be a barrel-full of P51Ds up in the air, or a flight of B-17s and A-20s on an NOE raid counterattack to pork the fuel at the other bases.
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I think Steve should be barred from ever flying with a wingman who has a clue and when he sees me he should saddle up right on my 12 till I blast him from the sky:)
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Originally posted by Steve
Wow Forhim, you've outscored the rooks 72-64, at least you're in the lead. Let me guess, you only die to rooks when they have huge number and alt advantages right? Well other than sundays, rook numbers are about equal to everyone else's; with each team taking it's turn in the bucket. Ohhh, I know, you only die to rooks on sunday nights!
Thanks for checking on my stats. It is good to know that "I'm in the lead". I never made an assertion of how good I am nor did I make a comment about RJOs. I was just replying that it is nice to find a fighter or two that is willing to fight one on one or one on two (to separate themselves from the "herd"). And before you say it, the DA is a good place to play if you like fighting the same person over and over. I prefer to fly how I want to and when I want to. I am or was not trying to imply that you change your method of flying. I was just pointing out the nice fights that I had last night that allowed me to remember why I first joined this game. The game evolves and changes with each person who joins or leaves.
As for my deaths and flying style, I won't comment as that will only provide more fuel for your witty comments.
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yep... letting fuel go to, but never below 25% simply makes for even more timid pee 51's in the game.
lazs
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Whats the deal with the rook bashing? Are they winning?
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Well, finding a decent fight was a chore last evening. I decided to fly the P-40E and F4F-4 for the balance of the tour... Cruising around last night in the P-40 was...boring. For the most part, all I saw was high Mustangs who wouldn't even engage a lone Kittyhawk flying at 10k over a 4k-5k landscape.... Anytime I managed to get near one, they'd high-tail it like their bellybutton was on fire and their hair was catchin'.
I finally had an opportunity when one pilot flew a Dora in on the deck and I was able to chase him down. He came back with altitude and despite making an effort to avoid my lower P-40, I beat him up again... But, alas, a fast mover La-7 and a Tiffy showed up and finished the speedy 190. I give him credit though, he at least came to fight and only bugged out when badly out-numbered. But, he was the only one.
There wasn't even a good CV battle to join.
So, after about an hour of watching guys run away, or refuse to engage, even when I deliberately gave them every chance and advantage, ... I logged.
So, who was the enemy? Knits....
Every side has their share of high flying timid pilots. The problem as I see it is that the Pizza map encourages this behavior more than most because the majority of fields at 4k or higher and a long way apart. So, either you have to go up there and meet them, or you find yourself bored senseless.
Maybe tonight will be different....
My regards,
Widewing
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Got two to come out of the herd tonight
This is an implication that somehow rooks fly differently than any other country. I'm disputing that in this thread.
My comment on your numbers wasn't a comment on your ability really. More of a point that if rooks flew around in herds, you'd probably not have a K/D of better than 1, unless you are quite skillful indeed.
I am or was not trying to imply that you change your method of flying.
Huh? My method of flying is simple. I head to the biggest enemy darbar that is as closest as possible to a friendly base. FWIW, I often switch sides on sunday nights and hunt rooks, else I skip flying altogether mostly. RJO was a clever way to give the rooks a numerical advantage for a brief time when rooks were constantly outnumbered. Now that the sides are more close to even, I think RJO has outlived its original intended use.
I can see why strat people would love RJO, but rooks that are looking for a fight really don't enjoy it much at all..... the steamroller mentality is not fun for all rooks.
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Originally posted by gofaster
It was probably me. I tend to be the first guy into battle, hence I'm alone. Then after I've smacked a few noggins and struck up a one-man battle front, the reserves come in.
Seems the same way with me, i dont whine about it though as some might, there is sheer love for getting ganged and pushing my SA to the limits. If i make it out i make it out, if i dont... I probebly will next flight :D
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Yeah, I may have to put the Yak9T away until this map is over. I'll have to shop for a high-alt speed burner that can fly for awhile on 25% fuel.
Oh, look what I found.
(http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/thumbs/P51D_tmb.jpg)
(http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/thumbs/P47D30_tmb.jpg)
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I won't expound upon the validity or lack thereof of your original post. But, I will say this. Until you've spent a camp on Rooks fighting the other two, your opinion is entirely subjective. You tend to notice those higher red cons alot more than the higher green ones . Gaining optimum altitude in a plane that is suited to Hit and Run tactics from alt is just a simple matter of flying a plane the way it was meant to be flown. Taking a plane out of it's designed context and using any success or failure as a phallic measuring tool is rediculous. All countries have pilots who conscientiously only fly their planes the way they are supposed to be flown. Rooks do not have a monopoly on this.
Saying Rooks have more P51 and 190 pilots that fly high and only engage selectively isn't a deficiency in testosterone, it is simply flying intelligently in a manner that suits ones aircraft.
If flying a plane low, slow, and perpetually engaging with the disadvantage in defiance of good prudence and logic is a measure of ones worth in AH, it must also be a measure of ones stupidity. It is only a fool that chooses an aircraft to fly, deliberately flies it in a way totally ill-suited to it's performance characteristics, engages willy-nilly at a disadvantage, then cries about the obvious negative outcome that should have been a foregone conclusion to any intelligent thinking person.
All your post says to me is.... Waaaaaaaa.... Rooks have the patience and discipline to fly smarter than we do
Zazen
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>>Yeah, I may have to put the Yak9T away until this map is over. I'll have to shop for a high-alt speed burner that can fly for awhile on 25% fuel. <<
I kind of like the yak on the pizza map. The spit seems way too slow, but I may be chosing the wrong fronts. Monday night, the closest I got to an enemy in 3 missions was 800 yards
:(
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Yeah, I may have to put the Yak9T away until this map is over. I'll have to shop for a high-alt speed burner that can fly for awhile on 25% fuel. <<
I kind of like the yak on the pizza map. The spit seems way too slow, but I may be chosing the wrong fronts. Monday night, the closest I got to an enemy in 3 missions was 800 yards
:(
The Yak9T doesn't like it above 15k it seems, and with the canyons the deck is at 10k at most airbases. That might also explain why there are so many Mustangs flying around.
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if ya move fields closer together, what makes ya think they wont up a field back to come in at 20k anyways?
~S~
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Originally posted by Zazen13
All your post says to me is.... Waaaaaaaa.... Rooks have the patience and discipline to fly smarter than we do
Zazen
Or time to just fly around, spend forever grabbing alt instead of fighting.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Or time to just fly around, spend forever grabbing alt instead of fighting.
Umm, that is rediculous. Average RoC is 2,500ft/Minute+ that's 8 minutes to get to 20k if you start out at a sea level base. I think what you are seeing is the average player is a lazy, undisciplined, easily bored member of the quake generation. Those seeking immediate gratification who are either unable or unwilling to put the time, effort, and patience in to fly in a systematic and intelligent manner. Outside of the computer genre, I call these people the "Fast food generation", those people who expect to have society provide total and immediate satiation of their desires on a whim.
Too many quake type adrenalin freaks are complacent to just up a spit5, niki, etc. and start turning with the first red con that presents itself then wonder with doe eyed innocence why someone with more patience, discipline and forethought than themselves comes along with advantage and aggressively replanes them, over and over and over...Get a clue, fly smart yourself, or learn to derive enjoyment from dying repeatedy at the hands of those who do
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
If flying a plane low, slow, and perpetually engaging with the disadvantage in defiance of good prudence and logic .....
Zazen
Uhhhh - I LIKE doing that :) But then I like it when my boss yells at me, and the wife hits me. I get upset when my sheep laugh at me though.
palef
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Too many quake type adrenalin freaks are complacent to just up a spit5, niki, etc. and start turning with the first red con that presents itself then wonder with doe eyed innocence why someone with more patience, discipline and forethought than themselves comes along with advantage and aggressively replanes them, over and over and over...Get a clue, fly smart yourself, or learn to derive enjoyment from dying repeatedy at the hands of those who do
It takes alot patience to fly a Spit V and be successful with it. It goes nowhere fast and leaves nowhere fast. Bring whatever you want against my Spit V and I will show you patience, and I can guarantee that you won't be replaning me over and over again.
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Bring whatever you want against my Spit V and I will show you patience, and I can guarantee that you won't be replaning me over and over again
Pretty bold ol' buddy. I like that in one who can back it up. I like it comin from you.
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My money is on Slap:D
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>>Too many quake type adrenalin freaks are complacent to just up a spit5, niki, etc. and start turning with the first red con that presents itself then wonder with doe eyed innocence why someone with more patience, discipline and forethought than themselves comes along with advantage and aggressively replanes them, over and over and over.<<
And isn't that a beaten dead horse? Furballers vs. fur wearers :D
j/k. Whatever floats your boat, but I don't see how either style is a guage of the player's inteligence. It would be pretty dumb to climb to 25k in a dora if a player wants to furball, or get the most possible fighting in before they need to log. It doesn't have to mean he has a short attention span - he might just have a dirty 6 - year -old that won't get in the tub, a dog whose bladder is hardwired to his alt meter, or just a grouchy spouse :)
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Zazen have you ever thought that maybe getting kills when you are at a disadvantage feels "better" than when you hold all the cards. For me, getting a kill is often less important than having a good fight. When i am above everyone else my kills some how feel "cheaper" i don't really feel like i have achieved anything.
for instance- in a furball today i was in a mossie @3k when a la7 dived on me. after several passes i finally got him to commit to a rolling scissors, he overshot and i nailed him. It was great fun! Even if i had died, it still would have been great fun- the fight was exciting. That's my point- flying high, holding all the cards- it just isn't all that fun for me most of the time.
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Not holding all the cards in a fight is uncomfortable for some people thrila. Apparently most people. And if I was REALLY gonna die if I lost the fight, I'd be one of them... but for me it is just a game.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Not holding all the cards in a fight is uncomfortable for some people thrila. Apparently most people. And if I was REALLY gonna die if I lost the fight, I'd be one of them... but for me it is just a game.
BINGO !!!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
BINGO !!!
no mercy! dam spray weenies!!
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Originally posted by Zazen13
If flying a plane low, slow, and perpetually engaging with the disadvantage in defiance of good prudence and logic is a measure of ones worth in AH, it must also be a measure of ones stupidity
First it is not a measure of ones worth. It is a preference. A preference that has a fairly common denominator.
Stupidity has nothing to do with it.
The common denomitator in the majority of cases is time "in game".
5 years or better from the major contributors to the threads. In some cases 10.
That's alot of flyin and dyin.
In that time, we've done it all. Done the prudent thing, in some cases alot..
It's a work at it, then work some more, and learn. A right of passage. Get to the point that you have a handle on the prudent way of flying. That takes awhile, rough world out there.
I'm mediorcre but after workin it for a couple of years...at it...I did a tour that wasn't a slouch, I had a parade..
Really..
So I found I could, if I "tried" to do it.
After time it became a chore, not a passion..
No push, no mountain to climb.
Low and slow is a choice.
Low and slow is..
lets play..
"Good" low and slow is the goal.
Low and slow let's you bite off as you much as you care to.
Push.
Rinse and repeat is not in the vocabulary..
Unless your REAL good.
I'm working towards that day but not holding my breath.
It's strange that to some, furballing is rinse and repeat. It's NEVER the same.
Always having the altitude, always having the advantage, knowing how far to go in, and knowing when to leave are good things to strive for.
I did that already. I wasn't a God by any stretch of the imagination but I wasn't half bad.
Having done that, what passion do I serve by just doing it over and over.
Puuuleeze.
My goal on every sortie is to hang it out there far enough to be dead to rights for someone.. and kill him.
I don't do it often, not for the lack of opportunities, but when I do ??
When I was in WB along time ago, I was a newbie and I saw this trainer on the deck with five badguys above him, all alone.
As I flew above watching.. he killed them all....one at a time..
That's the dog.
When I've done that ?? And do it regularly ??
I'll be done.
In the meantime, I'll be workin it.
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>>When I was in WB along time ago, I was a newbie and I saw this trainer on the deck with five badguys above him, all alone.
As I flew above watching.. he killed them all....one at a time..
That's the dog.
When I've done that ?? And do it regularly ??
I'll be done.
In the meantime, I'll be workin it. <<
There's no better way to put it. There's contenders and pretenders. There's thousands of ways to be a pretender. People know the contenders by name.
(in his best Rocky voice ) I want to be a contender.
Buit that is a LONG LONG way off :D
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Originally posted by palef
Uhhhh - I LIKE doing that :) But then I like it when my boss yells at me, and the wife hits me. I get upset when my sheep laugh at me though.
palef
Those are not sheep I keep telling you. They are goats.
:D
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whats wrong with flying a spit 5 on the deck wiggling your tail and daring the planes w/alt adv to come get ya ?? its called sheep herding in a spit .. tee hee
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Yes, not holding all the cards is a worthwhile thing. Going mobhanded in a gaggle, with the strongest, fastest, best climbing, best accelerating, best turning best firepowered wonderplane to a vulchfest is not a challenge. I'm not into those numerical supremacy smashdowns. I prefer to use the midwar planes when conditions permit. But in an arenaful of... well, you know the planes I'm thinking of ;) - you need speed and horsepower sometimes.
I'm trying with the Corsair 1D again this tour - have always liked it, for some reason. But in no way can it turnfight with planes like the Spit V and N1K and other turn-on-a-sixpence London taxi type planes. So when I see all this bleating from the pilots of the slow, manoeuvrable planes that "some guys won't come down and fight on my terms", it makes me laugh. :lol
Nopoop! :) You are allowed to put more than one sentence in a paragraph, you know! ;)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Umm, that is rediculous. Average RoC is 2,500ft/Minute+ that's 8 minutes to get to 20k if you start out at a sea level base. I think what you are seeing is the average player is a lazy, undisciplined, easily bored member of the quake generation. Those seeking immediate gratification who are either unable or unwilling to put the time, effort, and patience in to fly in a systematic and intelligent manner. Outside of the computer genre, I call these people the "Fast food generation", those people who expect to have society provide total and immediate satiation of their desires on a whim.
Too many quake type adrenalin freaks are complacent to just up a spit5, niki, etc. and start turning with the first red con that presents itself then wonder with doe eyed innocence why someone with more patience, discipline and forethought than themselves comes along with advantage and aggressively replanes them, over and over and over...Get a clue, fly smart yourself, or learn to derive enjoyment from dying repeatedy at the hands of those who do
Zazen
BRAVO!
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Originally posted by Shane
no mercy! dam spray weenies!!
Shane .. you have to be red to do that ... :D
or we could go to the DA. I could use a good prettythang beating (Nomak was the last to oblige me) and maybe some pointers.
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I'm trying with the Corsair 1D again this tour - have always liked it, for some reason. But in no way can it turnfight with planes like the Spit V and N1K and other turn-on-a-sixpence London taxi type planes. So when I see all this bleating from the pilots of the slow, manoeuvrable planes that "some guys won't come down and fight on my terms", it makes me laugh.
Beet ... <> to you for jumping in the 1D. Very nice plane. No it can't turn with a Spit V, but you don't have to turn with the Spit inorder to kill it. The N1K ... I think that it can dance with the N1K.
Most people think that the first and only thing that one must do in these TnB planes is jerk the plane into the hardest and flatest turn they can get away with and then kill their opponent. 'Tis not the case. What most people forget, is to use the vertical in these planes. Stall figthing is their real strength and most people don't know how to fight in the vertical which gives you the immediate advantage.
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LOL! Zazen, come down off your high horse before you hit your head on the ceiling.
Aces High is a game and nothing more. There's no such thing as flying "smart" or flying "dumb" but rather flying for what is fun for the individual player. Flying in a manner inconsistent with one's enjoyment of the game is the only "dumb" way of flying in my book.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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choosing the fastest plane in the game and then being as timid as possible taking no risk is not really what this game is about for a lot of us.
I believe that the so called strat has made that "style" much more important .... the worst maps... pizza for instance make it the only "smart" thing to do ..
but what is smart? how smart do yu have to be to choose the fastest late war planes in the game? How smart is it to simply never put yourself in danger. I submit that it not only doesn't take any smarts at all but that it is also simply.... boring.
What is more fun? killing someone who never even sees you from a perch that it took you 10 minutes of doing nothing to get to or.... mixing it up with 10 early war planes in 5 minutes and having your SA and ACM strained to the max?
what is better... dieng because the odds finaly caught up with you but getting 2 or 3 before you do or.... being a sky accountant who never earned a kill in his life and knows deep down that he never has learned to fight?
I spit on the sky accountants and their excuses that patience and plane choice equal skill...
lazs
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Oh.. and killu.. what closer fields do is stratify the fights. There would, as you say, be nothing to stop the sky acountant from taking off in his late war monster 1 or even 2 fields back and goint to 20k... he might even meet other sky accountants up there and they could spend joyful hors hiding from each other looking for that 'advantage" but...
the furballers would be in low slow planes and fighting between close fields.. the sky accountants could pork fuel and it wouldn't matter.. the fights would be within 25% range. there would be the late war planes fighting at alt and the furballers fighting low... there would be medium alt guys who wanted action but were too timid to really mix it up looking for a way to kill at the edge of the furs but... anyone who dove into the furs would be either a part of the fur or meat for the other sky accountants when they egressed (made their sissy pass and ran away).
If I am in a large fur at low alt the 20k sky accountant isn't even in the game so far as I am concerned.
This is the only way it will work if you want all planes available all the time.
lazs
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Works for me, now all someone has to do is design a map around that philosophy.
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Leviathan --"Aces High is a game and nothing more. There's no such thing as flying "smart" or flying "dumb" but rather flying for what is fun for the individual player. Flying in a manner inconsistent with one's enjoyment of the game is the only "dumb" way of flying in my book."--
There it is. I'm a pony driver, because for me the thrill of these sims is flying with my squadies, hunting down the bad guys, killing as many as possible and then bringing all of us safely home to our sheep.
The pony is well suited for this mostly because it has legs, both fuel and ammo. I can climb out and hunt for an hour without having to constantly land and reup. I can fly a sctr and a half or two sctrs with my favorite wingman, slap a cap on an enme field and single-handedly shut down their assualt on our field, and then fly home to land 7 kills. Doing that successfully is immensely satisfying for me.
On the other hand, grabbing a stall-fighter and flying to the nearest furball to 'fly till I die' is simply dead boring. I've done it, and I can kill 2, 3 or 4 before they get me, but so what. There's no strategery, no tactical thinking, no teamwork, no larger scale SA... only the me right here right now.
Boooooring. So Lazs, you guys go ahead and have fun fighting it out to see who's "THE BEST" and I'll have fun with my buddies.
Fair enough?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Beet ... <> to you for jumping in the 1D. Very nice plane. No it can't turn with a Spit V, but you don't have to turn with the Spit inorder to kill it. The N1K ... I think that it can dance with the N1K.
Most people think that the first and only thing that one must do in these TnB planes is jerk the plane into the hardest and flatest turn they can get away with and then kill their opponent. 'Tis not the case. What most people forget, is to use the vertical in these planes. Stall figthing is their real strength and most people don't know how to fight in the vertical which gives you the immediate advantage.
Oooh! An from Slapshot. :):)
Yeah, the F4U1D is nice. When flying into a "situation", I like to use the Yoyo manoeuvre. It helps me to do something with the excess speed I might have - ie convert it into height - and also gets the speed closer to that all important cornering speed so that I can at least turn and follow that con. The Corsair has a very good roll rate, and so those yoyo turns can be completed in reasonable time. The other thing is using that roll rate in a vertical dive to egress from the dive in any direction. Do it right, and the con's turning won't save him.
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Originally posted by 11dano11
Boooooring. So Lazs, you guys go ahead and have fun fighting it out to see who's "THE BEST" and I'll have fun with my buddies.
Fair enough?
Ya know he's hit it right on the head here 15 min climb out-15 min level--30 minutes to visit and make buddies.
Furball dweebs don't have the luxury of time spent in relative safety to make buds--what a waste:(
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Obviously, people get their jollies in many different ways. I readily admit I don't understand how putting oneself in a compromising situation on purpose where getting killed is almost a foregone conclusion is fun, but apparently for some it is. If you are one of those who derives fun from pissing into the wind with your free fly-time, knock yourself out. The problem I have is the people who fly in this manner then whine everytime someone who chooses to fly more realistically/intelligently, whatever word you want to use, kills them.
If you want to fly low and slow, flat break turning with the first red con you happen upon just be aware you are a ripe fruit begging to be plucked by everyone else who chooses not to fly this way. So, as long as you are comfortable with that fact and don't whine when the inevtitable happens to you it's all good....
Remember, this whole thread started with a thinly veiled whine about Rooks flying together and higher, which, by the way, is exactly how fighters flew in WW2 and for good reason...it is the best way to achieve local air superiority
Zazen
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Ya know he's hit it right on the head here 15 min climb out-15 min level--30 minutes to visit and make buddies.
Generally it takes about 10 minutes tops from gear up to on station. I guess it just SEEMS like 30 minutes to some :)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Obviously, people get their jollies in many different ways. I readily admit I don't understand how putting oneself in a compromising situation on purpose where getting killed is almost a foregone conclusion is fun, but apparently for some it is. If you are one of those who derives fun from pissing into the wind with your free fly-time, knock yourself out. The problem I have is the people who fly in this manner then whine everytime someone who chooses to fly more realistically/intelligently, whatever word you want to use, kills them.
If you want to fly low and slow, flat break turning with the first red con you happen upon just be aware you are a ripe fruit begging to be plucked by everyone else who chooses not to fly this way. So, as long as you are comfortable with that fact and don't whine when the inevtitable happens to you it's all good....
Remember, this whole thread started with a thinly veiled whine about Rooks flying together and higher, which, by the way, is exactly how fighters flew in WW2 and for good reason...it is the best way to achieve local air superiority
Zazen
Zazen ...
Let me repeat what DMF said one more time ... Aces High is a game and nothing more
If I were alive in 1943, and a fighter pilot, you could bet your sweet bippy that I would be, or strive to be, one of the best sky accountants known to man ... cause it was all real.
This is merely a game ... virtual pixelization of WWII planes. I don't know if you really realize it yet, but we don't really die ... no kidding ... I josh you not.
So why all the timidity and the BS excuse that "is exactly how fighters flew in WW2". Cause ya don't wanna die and possibly face the fact that someone just waxed your bellybutton in a fair 1 v 1 fight. Oh the humility of it all. Best part of getting your arse beat in this game is you can learn from it, adjust, and the next fight will be different.
The style of flying you descrbve is merely winning a fight by a "sucker" punch, rather than squaring off fairly and may the best man win, walk away. Anyone can win using a sucker punch ... it takes skill to look them in the eye and beat them with knowledge.
I know for a fact that I can sneak up on my karate instructor and with one punch, knock him into the subconcious, but sqaure off and meet him fairly, and he can wipe the floor with me if he so chooses. He beats me every time we spar, but each fight becomes more of a challenge for him because I learn something new about him and how to better utilize what I have learned from each prior fight.
This game is no different. You won't learn if you don't lose.
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Originally posted by lazs2
What is more fun? killing someone who never even sees you
That is what happens systematically in the furballs: 20 target-focused sprayers pursuing one out of other 20 target-focused sprayers that are already pursuing one of the first group.
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Slapshot, I agree that some folks (ahem, on both sides) seem to take their positions on this debate awfully seriously, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to land kills. As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game.
It's not that it's a matter of life and death, it's just how my play style developed. Landing kills = good, getting shot down = bad. Way back in my early AW days I was really focused on my K/D. Nowadays, I have no idea what my score is, how many perk points I have, how I am rated or anything else. But I still play to land kills, and I still play as part of a team.
Why is that a problem for so many people? After all, it's how the game was originally set up. The truth is, it's the PURISTS who are NOT playing the game.
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Originally posted by 11dano11
Slapshot, I agree that some folks (ahem, on both sides) seem to take their positions on this debate awfully seriously, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to land kills. As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game.
It's not that it's a matter of life and death, it's just how my play style developed. Landing kills = good, getting shot down = bad. Way back in my early AW days I was really focused on my K/D. Nowadays, I have no idea what my score is, how many perk points I have, how I am rated or anything else. But I still play to land kills, and I still play as part of a team.
Why is that a problem for so many people? After all, it's how the game was originally set up. The truth is, it's the PURISTS who are NOT playing the game.
Exactamundo! AH has a very conprehensive scoring system and a not so comprehensive reward system. Flying realistically is not only reflected in this, but by virture of its very existence in the game, encouraged. Hitech didn't program all that in there to fill an idle Sunday afternoon instead of golfing, so obviously he made a decision to prefer realistic flying to any other as well.
I agree, fail to understand, but agree nonetheless, that a significant portion of the AH community gets some kind of feeling of moral victory engaging at a disadvantage, maybe killing a con or two before they themselves inevitably get killed. I myself get far more satisfaction and extract much more pleasure from the game, taking my time, setting up my kills, killing several, then landing them. It gives the game an almost role-playing aspect. I feel for a few moments as I bask in my glory, I could have been one of those heroes of the sky of WW2 I have read countless books about. There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.
Zazen
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>>As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game. <<
And it rewards you for finding the *THE* fight albeit not it the stats, but in fun. I think Leviathn put it right - the only dumb flying is flying a style you don't find fun. Hopefully the ADD and alt monkey jabs are just that - friendly jabs.
>>I feel for a few moments as I bask in my glory, I could have been one of those heroes of the sky of WW2 I have read countless books about. <<
Well ummm. hmmmm ummmm - I know you are kidding right?
I slow on sarcasm :D
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Originally posted by 11dano11
Slapshot, I agree that some folks (ahem, on both sides) seem to take their positions on this debate awfully seriously, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to land kills. As you say, this is a game, and >THE GAME< rewards you for landing kills. It's part of the game.
It's not that it's a matter of life and death, it's just how my play style developed. Landing kills = good, getting shot down = bad. Way back in my early AW days I was really focused on my K/D. Nowadays, I have no idea what my score is, how many perk points I have, how I am rated or anything else. But I still play to land kills, and I still play as part of a team.
Why is that a problem for so many people? After all, it's how the game was originally set up. The truth is, it's the PURISTS who are NOT playing the game.
Dano buddie ... don't get me wrong. I love to land my kills just as much as the next guy does. I fly to live, but at the same time, I fly to fight.
Just tonight I was flying along all by myself and ran into a flight of 6 Typhoons ... I had a little alt on them ... got over the top of them ... did a split-s and went at them like there was no tomorrow ... 10 minutes later I killed 4 of the 6 and a friendly who just happened by got one and the last bugged out.
I chose to fight ... not run, because I knew, win or lose, I would fly with my hair on fire for as long as I could. Had I been timid and concerned with the 2 kills that I had before this encounter, I would have pulled up my slip and run back to my fellow countrymen and probably missed out on some of the best fights of the night.
Dano ... I have seen you fly, have flown with you, and I would not put you in the category of "timid" and "meek". You fly your P-51 correctly, but more importantly you fly it aggresively. Thats what separates you from the "turn-tail and run if I don't have an advantage" crowd.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Exactamundo! AH has a very conprehensive scoring system and a not so comprehensive reward system. Flying realistically is not only reflected in this, but by virture of its very existence in the game, encouraged. Hitech didn't program all that in there to fill an idle Sunday afternoon instead of golfing, so obviously he made a decision to prefer realistic flying to any other as well.
I agree, fail to understand, but agree nonetheless, that a significant portion of the AH community gets some kind of feeling of moral victory engaging at a disadvantage, maybe killing a con or two before they themselves inevitably get killed. I myself get far more satisfaction and extract much more pleasure from the game, taking my time, setting up my kills, killing several, then landing them. It gives the game an almost role-playing aspect. I feel for a few moments as I bask in my glory, I could have been one of those heroes of the sky of WW2 I have read countless books about. There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.
Zazen
Zazen ... you were doing real good until you said ...
There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.
You have a bad case of myopia.
Like I said before, fly whatever it is that you fly so carefully and when you run into me in my Spit V, please expect nothing but flat turns from me ... it will only make your death that much quicker.
Get off your flat turn soapbox.
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dano.... what would you do if the mustang were not available? I think that it will come to that if the maps continue to make it so that only 4 or 5 planes have a chance.
they will have to seperate the eras somehow. I don't really want that but think that the maps are too late war centric right now. festers excellent map is a good example of comprimise.. it threw a bone to the furballers and early war planes.
So what am i talking about? far fields make it easier to spred out the fights so that the sky accountants can find early war planes alone... 25% fuel adds to this... the only plane you can fly with 24% fuel is the overused and uber mustang which can't dogfight, the maps are designed for failure if you want variety.
as for the guys saying that flying low and slow makes us targets for them... well... never heard of those guys... they don't come down from their perch for me or slap... if they do they go right back up if they think we see em.
And yeah... mstly you do get killed in the furball by guys you never seen but... it is more that you lost track of them or you got to focused or your SA was overwhelmed.... big difference than from the sky accountants searching the nearly empty skies until they find a lower con who is away from his computer.
lazs
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If you want to fly low and slow, flat break turning with the first red con you happen upon just be aware you are a ripe fruit begging to be plucked by everyone else who chooses not to fly this way
Zazen why do you have the impression that furballing only involves flat turning. That is simply not the case. ACM in a furball is far more varied than bnzing from 25k can ever hope do. Maybe if you tried flying lower and enter a furball maybe you would see that too.
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I know exactly what furballing is, I furball myself. Never did I mention the word furball in any of my posts. I am referring to the people who fly low, in slow turning planes that whine about people with altitude wacking them while otherwise engaged. In WW2, getting into a prolonged turnfight was a last resort for just that very reason, you are a sitting duck.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Zazen ... you were doing real good until you said ...
There are no books written about the poor bastards that upped alone, purposefully got away from his buddies, got into a flat turn fight with the first enemy that he saw only to get bounced and die in a ball of fire. They just got buried and replaced.
You have a bad case of myopia.
Like I said before, fly whatever it is that you fly so carefully and when you run into me in my Spit V, please expect nothing but flat turns from me ... it will only make your death that much quicker.
Get off your flat turn soapbox.
Actually Slapshot, I am sure you are a fine Spit5 pilot, but you prove my point, I looked up your last 10 camps, you have never had better than a 2 to 1 k/d ratio, and average just over 1 kill a hop. So, you are actually a fine example of someone who engages, takes out 1 enemy, maybe 2 if you are really having a good hop, then you die. Not exactly a record to go around chest thumping about, and certainly not one that is indicative of any especially intelligent employment of tactics.
The only reason I use the flat turn as an example is because it is what most turn fights devolve into eventually once both the combatants E is expended. Of course in the initial phases when E states are relatively high there are various other ACM's that may be employed. But, provided neither of the combatants die in the initial phases, most turnfights devolve into a full flap merry-go-round at stall speeds on the deck, with both adversaries questing to pull lead for a brief moment for a shot. So, even if you win, you are in an incredibly disadvantageous position if there are any other enemy about, which is almost guarenteed in the MA.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually Slapshot, I am sure you are a fine Spit5 pilot, but you prove my point, I looked up your last 10 camps, you have never had better than a 2 to 1 k/d ratio, and average just over 1 kill a hop. So, you are actually a fine example of someone who engages, takes out 1 enemy, maybe 2 if you are really having a good hop, then you die. Not exactly a record to go around chest thumping about, and certainly not one that is indicative of any especially intelligent employment of tactics.
[/B]
I'm curious exactly how I would prove your point. Give it a shot.
Furballing is far more than flatturning. It's a situational awareness workout. Surviving such an engagement, should one choose to do so, requires the utmost in plane performance, ACM skill, application of situational awareness, gunnery, and even some luck. It is certainly no more or less "intelligent" than any other way of flying; less safe, perhaps, but it stresses other abilities and interests than flying to live.
They are different. Neither is better.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Zazen13
a significant portion of the AH community gets some kind of feeling of moral victory engaging at a disadvantage, maybe killing a con or two before they themselves inevitably get killed
Zazen
As aways when this discussion comes up, I'm always interested in the flying habits of those of an opposing view to see if by examining their flying habits their comments on flying and dying have any validity.
One day after doing this research on a pilot I'm going to be surprised. Today is not the day.
Zazen when you DO go for a flight, it lasts an average of 31 minutes, it's in a tiffy. You don't fly much else when you decide to fly..
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/p2f20f140f4e76a2e2bb948f88be9ee72/f9d6c07a.jpg)
Looking back as far as July you had 5 kills and 2 deaths in a Hurri and 1 kill and 1 death in a FM2.
You don't have any idea of what we are talking about because you haven't done it..probably ever. It doesn't make the K/D pretty in the majority of cases.
I doubt you'd give it up..
Do one in the weeds, then you'll have something to say.
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The good pilots don't go around thumping chests. Everyone knows who they are and regardless off stats respect their ability. If they beat you and you tried or you beat them straight up you'll never here a whine or excuse just a Salute.
And the really good ones or those that want to improve hang around the fight till its done cause pixel death don't hurt.
Your style is fine and it's your 14.95 and no one can stop anyone from doin thier thing--but when you make statements about how much better it is than someone elses it would help if your prepared to back it up with your plane not your keyboard.
Slap made ya an offer to prove yourself and all your doing is strutting your stuff in print.
Although it does seems MetaMouthing on the BBS seems to be the best way to display talent now-a-days.
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Originally posted by lazs2
they will have to seperate the eras somehow. I don't really want that but think that the maps are too late war centric right now.
I think Lazs is coming round to the idea of an RPS. :aok:D
Interesting posts by all. I can see where everyone is coming from. I'm a land-the-kills guy myself. I generally fly at a disadvantage in the MA because I fly alone and don't fly the planes I'm most likely to run into - P51/LA7/Spit ix/N1K/TYPH.
I'm fascinated by the way some talented and experienced AH hotshots persist with the Spit V. That was the first plane I learned to fly upon entering FlightSimdom c1998, and once I'd learned the basics, I was encouraged to move on to something else which did not have training wheels.
I've seen some films of guys flying the Spit V in AH, and it's so unrealistic and gamey in some instances that I might as well be watching an arcade game. Now DMF has been up front, and said that AH is nothing more than a game, so I can't fault him. But I've been doing my own offline tests with the Spit V, and found that I could make a 180° turn in about 6-7 seconds, starting from 240mph (slightly below corner speed) and finishing at 200mph. To do this, I was pulling 6G! But I could do it without blacking out, and without even greying out. That can't be right. How many 6G turns could a real pilot withstand, without a G suit, before he collapsed from exhaustion? Added to that, we have the gamey 8-way view hat switch, which some people stir around as if they had a double jointed thumb. Not plausible for a real pilot - especially not the Linda Blair view. And then comes the masterstroke. Spit V has con on 6, pulls a 6G turn out to the side, con overshoots, Spit pulls back in and lines up a 500 yard shot - unadulterated BS. Yeah, it may be fun and all that, but it's got bugger all to do with WW2, in which I doubt that any of those things could be achieved. So what does this prove? That someone would have been a WW2 Spit V hotshot? Hardly. The only thing it shows is how good someone is at exploiting the game attributes to be good at Aces High.
Now some of us might like to seek a deeper immersion - imagine how a plane like a P47, for example, might have been used in WW2. And I can't see anything wrong with folks who want to do that. I've read Gabreski's book, and it becomes clear that few if any of the 36 guys he shot down ever saw him. He used different techniques - speed and surprise much of the time. But try that in AH, and we have the wailing and gnashing of teeth - waah - alt monkeys, sky accountants etc. - when all those guys are doing is flying the way they want to fly. But that seems to give certain people a problem. Did someone say "purists"? ;)
So I think it's a bit rich for the Spit V (and others) band of master turn fighters to denounce someone elses "timid" gameplay, when they themselves rely on gaminess to the nth degree.
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Aw beet that is a biggest bowl of crap you've served in awhile.
YOU do a tour in the Spitty 5 and then PLEASE post a film of how gamey it is..
I'm looking forward to it. Beet down in the weeds with everyone diving on him...doing those gamey reverses and dropping them one by one..
Beet, I'll watch that film !!
And when I've seen you do it, kill the 5 or 6 that were above you when you couldn't egress.. and you took names ??
Next tour, how bout it ?? I'll never argue with you again.
Just let me watch THAT film.
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Nopoop - better still, YOU provide me with WW2 footage of Spit V pilots making those 6G turns over and over and over and over and... YOU provide me with WW2 film of a Spit V nailing guys at 500, 600 yards (or more) over and over and over and over...
What purpose would a down in the weeds film provide? That I can game the game in a virtual Spit V? Talk to someone who gives a crap.
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Wait, fogitabotit, I understand now.
THIS week you got your bellybutton handed to you by a Spit V..
SHOW ME THAT FILM !!
I forgot what killed you last week that you went on an on about.
Buck up.
500 is 300 on the spittys FE that ruined your week. He prolly suckered you and you bit. That's the best.
Amazing how when I get killed I know it was my fault in each and every case, but with you it's always for some other reason.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually Slapshot, I am sure you are a fine Spit5 pilot, but you prove my point, I looked up your last 10 camps, you have never had better than a 2 to 1 k/d ratio, and average just over 1 kill a hop. So, you are actually a fine example of someone who engages, takes out 1 enemy, maybe 2 if you are really having a good hop, then you die. Not exactly a record to go around chest thumping about, and certainly not one that is indicative of any especially intelligent employment of tactics.
The only reason I use the flat turn as an example is because it is what most turn fights devolve into eventually once both the combatants E is expended. Of course in the initial phases when E states are relatively high there are various other ACM's that may be employed. But, provided neither of the combatants die in the initial phases, most turnfights devolve into a full flap merry-go-round at stall speeds on the deck, with both adversaries questing to pull lead for a brief moment for a shot. So, even if you win, you are in an incredibly disadvantageous position if there are any other enemy about, which is almost guarenteed in the MA.
Zazen
The only one I have seen chest thumping is you. You made a broad sweeping statement about those that fly early war turn fighting planes and I am telling you that you are full of it.
Stats ... smats ... What my stats don't show is the fact that if there is gas in the tank and bullets in the wings, I am game. It doesn't matter who it is or how many there are ... if there is a fight to be had then I am there.
Like I said, find me and I will gladly show you how un-intelligent my employment of tactics really are you pompous ass.
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Beetle... I'm far more outspoken about timid pilots than most of these guys, but I don't fly the Spit. People have a reason to fly somewhat timidly when they are fighting a spit. At least the people in the runstangs and el gays. If they screw up to badly, they are going to die before they can run away.
What I despise about these same people is they fly just as timidly when they are facing any other plane.
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Beet ... I have to agree with Nopoop. What a load of BS.
Any plane available in the AH hanger can be flown out of plane that would wreck most men within minutes. We can do things in these planes, with consistency and frequency, that noone has ever been able to accomplish, nevermind survive ... move on.
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Flying from a disadvantage is the equivalent of acm weight training.
Winning from a disadvantage is the hardest thing to execute. Read Shaw. Its a pretty clear message to the fighter pilot that there is a high probability of flying perfect defensive ACM and still dying.
The subtext here folks is if you are winning at 2-1 or 3-1 clip from a disadvantge when you turn it on in a scenario/special events situation you are damn near unbeatable compared to a "smart flyer" because when everyone is talented it becomes evident who can create their own shot and who cannot. This also applies to the horizontal cherrypickers who love to find furballs. Basically a sky accountant without the alt adv.
So don't think for a second that a Levi or a Drex couldn't put a hurt on you with a D9, a wingman and a 2k alt adv.
No one wants to see that. Least of all HTC.
Those kind of beatdowns lead to cancelled subscriptions.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Any plane available in the AH hanger can be flown out of plane that would wreck most men within minutes. We can do things in these planes, with consistency and frequency, that noone has ever been able to accomplish, nevermind survive ... move on.
I agree - but that's total gamey crap. If that's what you want, fine. I'm not saying there's no skill involved. I'm saying that the skill that is involved is Aces High *GAME* skill. Nothing more. You have learned how to ploy the various game features and parameters of the AH game to your advantage, nothing more. The scenarios depicted in these heroic missions are over contrived, and the skills deployed in those scenarios are totally abstract. All I'm saying is that you should not berate some guy who flies smart in a P47/190/whatever and kicks your butt. He's probably on a different mission, a different page of the script. He might be flying alone and testing the performance of his plane and his own skill at handling it. I conducted that experiment in a poor turning, poor climbing P47D25 - and it became my best plane for k/d - 215/47. The fact that I did not descend to weed height, slow to 180mph and then seek out a Spit V to see who could win a turnfight is neither here nor there.
Enjoy what you do! Just don't piss on others when they enjoy what they do, especially whan it does not fit in with what you do. :)
Nopoop - "500 is 300 on the spittys FE that ruined your week. He prolly suckered you and you bit. That's the best." I'm not convinced. I've had kills like that in the past, and when I checked with the other guy, our distances were about the same. But you're a film buff. Here's a film of me shooting a YAK in my F4U-1D. I delivered all the killer blows from 600+ yards on MY end, and that's BS. I even apologised to the guy afterwards for gaming the game. The film (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/800yardbsshot.ahf) is only 29 secs in length - I think your attention span should hold out. :lol
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Beet for cripes sakes the guy DIDN'T MOVE !!!!!!!
If you think that 1800 feet with 6 fifties at a non moving target is BS I don't know what to tell you.
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From "P51 Mustang Aces" (William N. Hess)
Combat report: On Oct. 12 Yeager led the group enroute to escort bombers striking at targets at Hanover. Over Steinhuder Lake, 22 Me 109's were sighted passing from 11:00 to 1:00. Yeager stated: "I was coming out of the sun and they were about 1.5 miles away at the same level of 28,000 feet. I fell in behind the enemy formation and followed them for about 3 min, climbing to 30,000 feet. I still had my wing tanks and had closed up to around 1,000 yards, coming within firing range and positioning the squadron behind the entire enemy formation. Two of the 109's were lagging over to the right. One slowed up, and before I could start firing, rolled over and bailed out. The other 109 flying his wing, bailed out imeadiatly after I was ready to line him in my sights." "I was closest to the tail-end of the enemy formation and no one but myself was in shooting range and no one was firing. I dropped my tanks and then closed up to the last Jerry and open fire from 600 yards, using my K-14 sight. I observed strikes all over the ship, particularly heavy in the cockpit. He skidded off to the left and was smoking and streaming coolant and went into a slow diving turn to the left. I was closing on another 109, so I did not follow him down. Lt. Stern reports that the enemy aircraft was on fire when it passed him and went into a spin."
Hooligan
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Do one in the weeds, then you'll have something to say.
I fly some in the weeds when I'm in the mood; it's a blast. The game is what you make of it, why one side views the other with disdain is beyond me. Usually it's a furballer who turns up his nose at other people's styles. i.e Lazs or the tripe Hornet posted. Lazs is entitled to his views and I respect them.
I think it's deliciously ironic however, how vehement some of the replies get when someone who is not a furballer speaks in any tone other than reverence about the weed whackers. Look at Hornet's post, it falls just short of hero worship. Sure Todd and Drex are good sticks. Just as surely as theses two could get in D9's and cherry pick to their hearts' content, I'm sure there are a couple of d9 pilots who could get in turnfighters and meet w/ success.
I think it's great that a game exists that allows for so many choices of game play. I continue to be amused that some people think one style somehow is more noble or requires more skill than another.
As for the Slapshot /Zazen debacle, Zazen I'm not trying to take sides too much but I cringe when people quote K/D and K/S as a measure of skill. Sure it CAN be a measure of one's success in the MA, but not necessarily is it a good example of one's skill. I know Slapshot to be a very competent pilot who simply doesn't care about whether he survives, he wants to get in as many fights per flight as possible, regardless of circumstances. With this in mind, I think you can see why K/D and K/S might not be good indicators of Slap's ability at all.
OTOH I respect that you fly to survive and garner the most pleasure out of landing your crate as much as possible. since the game is literally what we chose it to be, I don't think one side is any more accomplished/better than the other.
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bah...totally wrong call steve.
both skill sets have value and are effective of that there is no doubt.
1 skill set has a longer shelf life than the other before you are out of practice. So folks looking to round out their game will look to fight from bad spots. Seems like a pretty basic concept.
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Hornet, I stated my opinion. The fact that you think I'm wrong isn't going to change it. If it makes you feel better, disagree w/ me some more. I have my views and they are based on my experiences in both venues, not becuase someone like you came along and tried to give me my opinion.
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Originally posted by Steve
I fly some in the weeds when I'm in the mood; it's a blast. The game is what you make of it, why one side views the other with disdain is beyond me. Usually it's a furballer who turns up his nose at other people's styles. i.e Lazs or the tripe Hornet posted. Lazs is entitled to his views and I respect them. I think it's deliciously ironic however, how vehement some of the replies get when someone who is not a furballer speaks in any tone other than reverence about the weed whackers. Look at Hornet's post, it falls just short of hero worship. Sure Todd and Drex are good sticks. Just as surely as theses two could get in D9's and cherry pick to their hearts' content, I'm sure there are a couple of d9 pilots who could get in turnfighters and meet w/ success. I think it's great that a game exists that allows for so many choices of game play. I continue to be amused that some people think one style somehow is more noble or requires more skill than another.
Steve - that was a cracking post! :):):aok Exactamundo. You nailed it. Now whereas the furballers may have leaned to one side of the debate, I may have appeared to lean to the opposite side. But if I did, I was only trying to create balance. I don't mind if the weed wackers want to fight at 3K, and find action within 2 minutes of taking off. I'm not going to piss on their parade, unless they piss on mine or anyone else's. And it has to be said that this whole thread got started by Lazs, lamenting the fact that a few Rooks he saw would not play the way he wanted them to. It is a game, and so far I think Steve and DMF are seeing the big picture.
Nopoop, that film was part of a 6 kill sortie in which I was down in the weeds below 1K for much of it. The seaweeds that is, as the flight was off a CV. I'd post the entire film, but you'd make fun of my limey accent. :lol
I am no expert in guns/gunnery as you know - lol. Learned a bit last October with Lazs though.
So I asked a friend - former WBer and current AHer - who is also a learned military historian. The context in which I put the question was in relation to a 109G6 egressing from a Spit V and being shot at 500 yards, 600 yards or more. I then pointed out to him that I myself could get kills at 600, 800 and one time even 1000 yards at a 30° upward angle. And this was his reply. I have underlined the bits that stuck out. Please read carefully. The gentleman speaks excellent English, but it's not his first language.Yes, the gunnery is way easier both in WB and AH then in real life.
WW2OL is actually a bit closer to reality.
Sims in general do not model most or any of the matters which affect the shooting. Airplanes differed a lot even in gun mounting, which already afffected hwo the bullets start their flight. Weapons never get hot, which worsens the accuracy - thats why in RL pilots shoot short bursts, to allow the guns cool off. Then all the kazillion details about bullets in flight. In real life practical shooting distances were generally 200 meters. There was a reason why pilots were taught to shoot close - that way you could actually hit.
You got to remember as well, that a fleeing target is fast. It runs away from the bullet, which means the longer the range, the longer way bullet must fly. 800 yards shot is not 800 yards for the bullet, it is 1000-1200 yards. At those ranges bullet has lost much of its velocity. When it hits it must pierce the airplane fuselage. Wartime tests showed bullet loses about 70% of its piercing power just on penetrating the plane skin - as it is not 90 degree penetration. After that it has much less chances on piercing critical components or armor.
So yes - 800 meter shots are total bull****.
Have you ever thought about the bullet penetration in games? I am 100% certain that when you shoot at 800 yards, the bullet penetration and kinetic energy is modeled fully, as 100 yards or so shot! The energy of the bullet should be less in longer ranges, but by my arse, they're just as efficient when they strike at 800 yards as in 100 yards and that just isn't correct.
But no can do. It's a game. It makes you mad but gotta live with it, if you want to enjoy flying.
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I agree - but that's total gamey crap. If that's what you want, fine. I'm not saying there's no skill involved. I'm saying that the skill that is involved is Aces High *GAME* skill. Nothing more.
Wow ... what a revelation !!! Thanks.
You have learned how to ploy the various game features and parameters of the AH game to your advantage, nothing more.
Just like you have ... does stick stirrin' ring a bell ?
The scenarios depicted in these heroic missions are over contrived, and the skills deployed in those scenarios are totally abstract. All I'm saying is that you should not berate some guy who flies smart in a P47/190/whatever and kicks your butt.
Anybody that kicks my butt in any plane gets a <>. Anybody that rips me apart from their cherry perch after someone else has worked me to the point that the cherry picker gets an effortless kill ... gets silence. You on the other hand must come here and vent your frustration with BS, rhetoric, and anecdotal evidence. Drag all the Historians and AW/WWOL pilots you want ... they mean nothing. You would not have quoted him if he did not agree with your opinion. Ballistics have been debated to death in other forums with ballistics experts ... carries far more weight than what you brought to the table.
My problem is not with those who don't fly the weed wackers ... its with those who wont engage without an overwhelming advanatge or overwhelming odds and then preach that they are superior. Fly with the "JB"s for awhile. They are the gamest LW pilots in the game. They fight !!! ... and have provided some of the best fights I have had in this game ... all in German rides.
The last week or so, I have been flying (solo), and trying to engage 1 v 1 at the 10K+ level and still, without the overwhelming advantage, they fly right on by or turn tail back to where they came from hoping to find the protection of the herd. Because their scared ? Because they might lower their K/D ? Because someone might make fun of them ? Because the have no clue as to how to fight 1 v 1 ? I wish I knew.
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Steve, good thoughts. Hornets shelf life statement is true also.
My rust starts at 48 hours.
With either advocation, being a good shot is paramount. If I could be implanted with the marksmen "chip" in this wittle head I'd be most appreciative.
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Never did I say someone who gets in a dweebfire and yanks and banks on deck is somehow an inferior person. All I said was, that style of play, while undoubtedly fun for some, is totally unrealistic. But, as some have mentioned many facets of the game are very unrealistic, including some flight models. In reference to the original post, my argument was that flying at appropriate altitude in co-ordination with ones teamates engaging discriminately is very very close to how the air war in WW2 was approached.
Not that one way is intrinsically better than the other. I enjoy both from time to time myself. But, no pilots in WW2 grabbed a dweebfire saying to himself, "Ok, I am fabulous, I'm just gonna dive into that mess over there and wiggle around spraying at everything I can until either my fuel or ammo runs out and I die!"
Well, maybe a few did, but we'll never know, cause they are dead....
I guess what we can agree upon is that different people have different ideas of what a successfull hop is. I get little satisfaction from any hop where I hand the enemy my pelt. It doesn't matter if I kill ten before someone gets my pelt. It wasn't worth it. But, then there's some like Slap, or +Dead, that just want to see how many they can take with them to the grave in their dweebfire of doom. If that's what gets your rocks off, go for it. But, to conclude in reference to the original post. Getting pissy because people choose to employ the tactics and strategy that were actually used with great proven success in WW2 is in a word, stupid.
Zazen
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Were there any 'furballer' survivors of ww2?
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Originally posted by nopoop
As aways when this discussion comes up, I'm always interested in the flying habits of those of an opposing view to see if by examining their flying habits their comments on flying and dying have any validity.
One day after doing this research on a pilot I'm going to be surprised. Today is not the day.
Zazen when you DO go for a flight, it lasts an average of 31 minutes, it's in a tiffy. You don't fly much else when you decide to fly..
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/p2f20f140f4e76a2e2bb948f88be9ee72/f9d6c07a.jpg)
Looking back as far as July you had 5 kills and 2 deaths in a Hurri and 1 kill and 1 death in a FM2.
You don't have any idea of what we are talking about because you haven't done it..probably ever. It doesn't make the K/D pretty in the majority of cases.
I doubt you'd give it up..
Do one in the weeds, then you'll have something to say.
Actually, I have been playing these games for a decade or so. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Had your observations been objective you would have noted I also fly the F6f (a turnfighter) almost as much as the Typhoon and attain the same kind of success with that style of play.
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Originally posted by Steve
Hornet, I stated my opinion. The fact that you think I'm wrong isn't going to change it. If it makes you feel better, disagree w/ me some more. I have my views and they are based on my experiences in both venues, not becuase someone like you came along and tried to give me my opinion.
easy there steve. please take a breath and re-read my posts. I'm not putting down B&Z guys in either one. My objection to your comment was that my point was pure "hero worship".
It's not. B&Z is the most effective way to fly. A good pilot using this tactic has a much larger area of influence. From the opponents perspective he is already a hard "out" from the fight. But AH is a wierd community..people are so eager to divide into 2 camps.
My point is these skills are transferable.
As hard an out as the skilled B&Z guy already is...its much more a problem if even if you get him pushed down and 2v1'd he is still a threat to win. Now that's a real pain in the ass. But that kind of balance can only come from practice, which I believe is the primary motivator for going into bad spots.
The key here being balance, something lost in the debate as people rush to
find their correct hat...is it furballers vs strat or furballers vs B&Z today?
I think this community may troll itself sometimes.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
My problem is not with those who don't fly the weed wackers ... its with those who wont engage without an overwhelming advanatge or overwhelming odds and then preach that they are superior.
Slapshot,
I have no wish to escalate any hostility, or to tell you how to enjoy your monthly $14.95 worth. As far as I can tell, I never tried to claim superiority over you or others like you. Fly what you want, how you want.
I don't care if someone wants to claim to be superior in this game to me or anyone else. The stats are there, and we can interpret them how we want.
But what I do find to be a major irritation is when someone seeks to vindicate his own flying style by denouncing someone else's.
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Wow! There are some famous quotes and words of wisdom in this threat.
Nice beginning to the thread there Lazs.
I have actually seen a Rook below 7K feet just the other day. It was a Typhoon on its way to augering from 24K feet in the process of porking fuel at a Knight base.
This thread has to continue, it is a load of laughs.
Poops post are the only ones making any sense, and that is a first! :)
::lol
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I've been trying Swager. Thanks !!
It might have something to do with my dedication of taking my daily dose of "Focus Factor".
I buy it in bulk.
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bah...totally wrong call steve.
Hornet, I didn't mean to sound hostile in my disagreement, if you perceived it as such, please accept my sincere apology. Wrong about what?
As hard an out as the skilled B&Z guy already is...its much more a problem if even if you get him pushed down and 2v1'd he is still a threat to win.
Hornet!!! That's the guy I am trying to be!! I'd like to be that that guy while having a K/H of 12(means i'm having fun in a ton o' fights) without artificially enhancing K/H by augering or vulching(more than anyone else).
Edit: I've never achieved this, btw. :p
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Wah, wah, wah, somebody didn't play the way I wanted them to. Get over it. (In response to the 1st post)
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Originally posted by MrSlim
Wah, wah, wah, somebody didn't play the way I wanted them to. Get over it. (In response to the 1st post)
LOL, Mr. Slim! :lol Welcome to this BBS. :)
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Zazen, This is some of the most intelligent posting I have seen on this board regarding "You don't fly the way I want you to fly so I can easily kill you and feel self important in a game".
Bravo
Originally posted by Zazen13
Saying Rooks have more P51 and 190 pilots that fly high and only engage selectively isn't a deficiency in testosterone, it is simply flying intelligently in a manner that suits ones aircraft.
If flying a plane low, slow, and perpetually engaging with the disadvantage in defiance of good prudence and logic is a measure of ones worth in AH, it must also be a measure of ones stupidity. It is only a fool that chooses an aircraft to fly, deliberately flies it in a way totally ill-suited to it's performance characteristics, engages willy-nilly at a disadvantage, then cries about the obvious negative outcome that should have been a foregone conclusion to any intelligent thinking person.
All your post says to me is.... Waaaaaaaa.... Rooks have the patience and discipline to fly smarter than we do
Zazen [/B]
:aok
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Originally posted by Gunslngr
Zazen, This is some of the most intelligent posting I have seen on this board regarding "You don't fly the way I want you to fly so I can easily kill you and feel self important in a game".
Agreed! :aok
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steve... I'm sure there are some of the sky accountants who could get out of their dee 9's and peee 51's and get into early war planes and do well but.... they don't so we won't know.
now, there is an example.... some time back there was a squad of very careful and very good pee 51 guys... they did very well and covered each other. they were called the 13th tas.. they were probly the best in the 51 ever.
I challenged them to fly earlywar/slow planes for a tour... I felt it was the only way they would know what I am talking about. they did and now they know what I am talking about. They were not spectacular at first in the slow planes. They have gotten much better... they don't even fly 51's much anymore.
The maps and the strat have given huge advantages to the late war planes. If you fly a late war plane you are starting with a huge advantage.
Think about it... what does 25% fuel do to every plane except... the peeee 51?
It is like the old shooting courses where you had to shoot plates with a pistol... you could use any handgun you wanted but one station had 7 plates to shoot as fast as you could. You could use a revolver if you wanted. (at the time, all revolvers were a max of 6 shot).
move the fields slightly closer together and never let fuel go below 50%.
lazs
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Every post you make has a tremendous amount of truth to them until you open your mouth and make statements such as this ...
But, then there's some like Slap, or +Dead, that just want to see how many they can take with them to the grave in their dweebfire of doom.
You don't know me ... you have never fought me, yet you can make such statements.
Like I said before and maybe you didn't catch it ... I love to land my kills, BUT if there is still a fight to be fought, then I am going to fight it as long as I have gas, ammo, and a target. Thats MY choice ... that is what I pay $14.95 for.
Just yesterday on my first 3 hops I went 20-0 before dieing ... surely not the characteristics of someone who really doesn't care to land kills.
Just because I don't subscribe to YOUR idea of playing this game, and just because I don't choose to fly a plane that you approve of, I am somewhat lesser than you and a dweeb ? GFY
Your still a pompous bellybutton and now a hypocrit.
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Originally posted by Steve
Hornet, I didn't mean to sound hostile in my disagreement, if you perceived it as such, please accept my sincere apology. Wrong about what?
cc sry steve...was referring to being wrong bout the hero worship, wasnt lookin at flyin style.
as an aside...ever wonder why the hardcore e-fight guys get so bent bout the knife-fighters? Tactically speaking they should be singing furballing its praises and trying to convert as many as possible on the bbs. It could've been the greatest troll in history. Hell get everyone low and turning, would make things easier for em...always thot that was odd...
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Originally posted by Hornet
as an aside...ever wonder why the hardcore e-fight guys get so bent bout the knife-fighters? Tactically speaking they should be singing furballing its praises and trying to convert as many as possible on the bbs. It could've been the greatest troll in history. Hell get everyone low and turning, would make things easier for em...always thot that was odd...
cuz them alt-monkey-bnz-cherrypicking-runatslightesthintofthreat-dweebs can only think linearly. ;)
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Hornet --"as an aside...ever wonder why the hardcore e-fight guys get so bent bout the knife-fighters?"--
Not sure what you mean. What e-fight guy has gotten bent about the knife-fighters?? It's ALWAYS the other way around.
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they go on and on about "realistic flying", "fly to live" "turn and burn quakers."
yanno?
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Originally posted by Hornet
cc sry steve...was referring to being wrong bout the hero worship, wasnt lookin at flyin style.
as an aside...ever wonder why the hardcore e-fight guys get so bent bout the knife-fighters? Tactically speaking they should be singing furballing its praises and trying to convert as many as possible on the bbs. It could've been the greatest troll in history. Hell get everyone low and turning, would make things easier for em...always thot that was odd...
It has nothing to do with easier or harder. It's all about the fact that AH is supposed to be a Massively Multi-player WW2 Combat FLIGHT SIMULATOR. Any action perpetuated by a significant portion of the community that is totally unrealistic degrades the immersion factor for everyone else.
A good example of this is spawn camping. Totally unrealistic, totally ruins the feel of actually participating in a pitched battle during WW2. Weed wackin' "Turn n' burn" till you get popped folks do the same thing. Totally unrealistic, no pilots did this by choice in WW2, it would have been tantamount to suicide.
I would prefer everyone fly smart and as realistically as possible, it would make this WW2 Combat FLIGHT SIMULATOR have a role-playing feel that you could really get involved in, but I guess that's what TOD will be one day. Of course if everyone flew smarter, it would be harder, but that's a good thing. Nothing especially difficult about bouncing some guy in a spit5 with no alt and no E.
I don't know about everyone else. But, I choose to fly AH not only for the flying but because I love the history of WW2. I read books about it, buy history channel documentaries, I even took elective courses in military history during college. The thing that attracted me to AWFR then AH was that it so closely approximated what I had read Airiel Combat during WW2 was really like. It is because of this love of the genre that I so vehementally detest those that bastardize and belittle the experience for that quick adrenalin fix and nothing more. Yes, in a way I wish they would just go back to Quake.
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Nothing especially difficult about bouncing some guy in a spit5 with no alt and no E.
Come and get it oh pompous one !!!
If all this drivel that you spew forth is for real ... you really need to seek help.
Anybody know if Voss has a twin ?
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yes, in a way I wish they would just go back to Quake.
Never played Quake, sorry. Though I must say it does give me extreme pleasure to know that my very choice of flying style chaps you so severely. Just by showing up in the arena I must ruin your day all while I'm having fun and not even thinking about it.
Tour of Duty sounds like your cup of tea, though I can't wait to see how your survivalist instincts match up with actual mission objectives. I suspect you'll do far more poorly than you think.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I thought the MA was practice and the scenarios were for immersion. Hmm.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Nothing especially difficult about bouncing some guy in a spit5 with no alt and no E.
Come and get it oh pompous one !!!
If all this drivel that you spew forth is for real ... you really need to seek help.
Anybody know if Voss has a twin ?
Let me just say, this thread is serving a greater purpose that will become apparent in the near future
Zazen
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as an aside...ever wonder why the hardcore e-fight guys get so bent bout the knife-fighters? Tactically speaking they should be singing furballing its praises and trying to convert as many as possible on the bbs. It could've been the greatest troll in history. Hell get everyone low and turning, would make things easier for em...always thot that was odd...
I always felt it was the weed whackers getting on the BnZ guys.
I really enjoy both styles. With the giganto maps (big Isles)
flyin the slow stuff is rather dreadful.
I agree 100% w/ lazs that bases should be closer together. I just can't see how it would hurt anybody's game play. Alt loving people could simply take off from rear bases. People that want to fly "realistically" could do so, and people who want to get instant action could as well. Maybe even have certain planes be able to up w/ 50% fuel regardless of current base fuel status. I know this opens a can of worms as to what planes.. maybe just the earliest war stuff: i.e. fm2, p40, zeke, 109 e,.... spit 1&V, hurri.... etc. This way, the strat players could affect the enemies ability to do harm to their own strat by killing ord and fuel as far as long reaching planes go, while the furballers could still have their fun. I know I'm gonna get flamed for this... but it's an idea.
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Well that's not a bad idea. I would agree with it if I was of the persuasion that thinks early war planes should have some advantage given to them to even them up in the MA. But personally I feel the older models should be for special events, for the most part.
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Nightmare for a Rook?...hmmm....lemm Bishops in short supply :D
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There are THREE reasons why the furballers can't see that moving the bases closer together creates a problem for the strat flyers. [list=1]
- They think that strat-play is synonymous with fuel porking.
- They don't play the strat game themselves and therefore don't understand it and don't know what they're talking about.
- They can't see that trying to capture a base that's within earshot of another one is going to lead to a conveyor belt of goon/troop killers.
In the current AH setup, with all the planes available all the time, and bardar/flashing map/"base under attack"/siren all combining to give the game away, there is very little opportunity for a stealth attack. When the bases are too close together, the siren at one field can be heard in the tower at a neighbouring field! :lol
Sure, you can up from a base further back if you want alt, but if you're flying jabo you won't want to do that; you want to get to the destination quickly and work from about 5K. It takes time to kill acks and kill the town. And in that time, the game features I have mentioned will have given the game away, and the LA7 reception committee will have the red carpet rolled out. That is precisely why base captures come down to one thing - numerical supremacy. In that, I agree with Lazs. But it need not be that way...
...just last week on pizza, I was working with a guy called Wrecker to capture a few vehicle bases. (Probably bores some of you, but I like variety!) We could not spawn troops there. (The previous dorks had porked the barracks when we captured our base) So I upped a goon. I had to ask Wrecker to leave the area - just to stop the damned map from flashing, as the enemy had an 11K base nearby. I flew the goon on a path that minimised the map flashing time, and got the troops in.
With the bases too close together, the above scenario would not have been possible. An LA7 would have been waiting for me. Because with the fields too close together, it only takes an LA7 a couple of minutes to get there. Oh yeah, and it always is an LA7, by the way. :rolleyes:
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zazen... you certainly do NOT wish everyonme flew as realistically as possible... If you did then that would mean that sorties would last hours and most players would not get a kill in several years of flying. You want SELECTIVE realism... you want to face early war planes that are spred out and trying to compete with your late war monster on your terms.
beetle... we have been through this before. with a lot of bases close together the sky accountants need not go to those fields till all the others are captured. The real thing that happens is.... the strat girls MEED the furballers.. they need and envy them. they can't stand seeing peope having a good furball... they feel left out... even if the fight is occuring in an area that has no "strategic" importance... the strat girls will try to pork it because they really can't stand....
being ignored.
And that is why they fear closer fields... they fear being ignored by those who want to have fun. Far fields are warm and comforting to them ... like mommas voice telling all the other kids they have to play with them.
lazs
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LOL Lazs! Have you started drinking again? :lol
Am I a strat girl? I thought I was just a sissy. Steve has me down as an effeminate poofter... and I have girly hands.
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They think that strat-play is synonymous with fuel porking.
That is the only strat play that seems to be a constant as of late. You yourself have voiced distain in this tactic and have also felt the effects of such. No other strat on any map has more effect than fuel. That is the problem at hand and hopefully HT will address this within AH II.
They don't play the strat game themselves and therefore don't understand it and don't know what they're talking about.
Here you go again with your broad sweeping brush. I call BS !!! I came from the MAW. One of the best strat squads in all of AH. No other squad, outside of the AKs and FBs, can have such an impact on the map if they move as a complete unit. I know all about strat ... every nook and cranny. The 13th also knows every strat nook and cranny too. I personally have captured more bases than you could ever dream of.
They can't see that trying to capture a base that's within earshot of another one is going to lead to a conveyor belt of goon/troop killers.
Cod forbid that we make things harder for the horde. FesterMA field placements were designed to be taken, but also taken back quickly if you do not stick around and defend it. It was meant to stop the steamroller effect, and it does just that for the most part. On all the other maps, once the steamroller gets moving, it is extremely hard to flank the horde and try to take back what they just took. They need not leave any of the hordelings behind to defend, so the roller just gets bigger as it moves forward.
Why do people think that maps should be easy to reset. I would think that maps should be designed to be very hard to be reset and take a real concerted and strategic effort to conquer.
I guess some people really need those 25 perk points when they "win the war" ... :rolleyes:
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what a useless bunch of crap....
BnZ.....TnB
one day you guys are gonna learn that both apply to each other....both styles COMPLIMENT each other.
you CANNOT always BnZ....same for TnB
learn both STYLES and apply them when necessary....or you just plain suck.....
whats it gonna be like when you gotta learn to REVERSE on an enemy attacking you.....OMG.:rolleyes:
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Zazen you are exactly the conservative puss that fits the High Alt, Always at an Advantage, Run Like a Girl, Can't Fight, Sky Accountant category. Nuff Said.
Beetle once again your resons against moving bases closer together are...
It makes strat too hard Whaaaaa. You would actually have to fight. Again it doesn't hold water.
You say you wouldn't be able to capture a base with just two people, well I say you shouldn't be able to, talk about gamey.
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Slap, looking at the early part of your post, you still seem to be equating fuel porkage with "strat play". I haven't fuel porked in months. I did it for a while, back when it was a hot topic on the BBS and I knew how much grief it caused the furballers. :lol:p But it's a bit of a low trick, and simply isn't Cricket. A bit like potting your opponent's ball in a game of billiards - not the done thing. My dad used to get really indignant when my brother did that to him - lol!
I personally have captured more bases than you could ever dream of.
Bollocks. I started looking back through your stats, back to the days when you were gooning. Of about 6 tours I looked at, you generally got about 3-5 captures. One time you got 8. Big deal.
Yes I've tagged along with the AKs many a time - a good bunch. I would like to join them if invited, but I wouldn't be able to make US prime time squad nights.
The only strat targets I destroy are the town, the VH and the acks. At a V-base I'll just get the two acks and the VH. Cod forbid that we make things harder for the horde.
In the example I cited in which I was able to capture a V-base in the absence of the usual LA7 rapid response unit, It was Wrecker who got the acks, and I came in a goon. Wrecker left so as not to keep the map flashing. I hardly call a solitary goon a "horde".
Oh and one last thing. Do not equate strat-play to "winning the war". Some people might be online long enough to see it through, but I'm not one of them. The strat is there to provide an objective - to capture an enemy position. I think the idea is that the enemy tries to prevent that from happening, and in the course of doing that there's a lot of combat and we all have fun.
Mars01 - You say you wouldn't be able to capture a base with just two people, well I say you shouldn't be able to, talk about gamey.
How many people does it take to fly a goon in this game? :rolleyes:
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How many people does it take to fly a goon in this game?
Oh my bad your right. Give me a break, so what next beet, take out all the ack remove the need to blow up the buildings and turn this game into nothing but goon drivers.
Two people should not be able to capture a base. The bottom line is you dont want to be challenged or your skill tested. You want easy to capture bases with very little opposition.
That says alot about you and I was just starting to like you:D
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Originally posted by mars01
That says alot about you and I was just starting to like you:D
Awwww! I've gone all mushy. :o
No Mars, I think you were missing my point. My point was about being able to capture a base by stealth instead of by numerical supremacy. As long as we cling to the "must have lots of guys to make the capture" stance, then, as Lazs says, success/failure will depend on one thing and one thing only - Numbers. It's a philosophy that is wedded to the steamroller. This game does not reward stealth. It does the opposite. I aired my views about this in 2002 in this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52208) thread, and I still hold those views. Nothing has changed.
If bases are being milk run, do not blame me or the other girly milk maids. Blame the A.D.D. dolts who can't be arsed to defend those bases. - They have radar.
- They have bardar.
- They have the flashing map.
- They have the warning siren.
- They have Yankee trilling "base under attack".
For cripes sake, how many more warning systems must they have before they get off their butts to defend, instead of whining about us milkmaids? Oh wait... that would not be "fun". Never mind. :p
Oh yeah, almost forgot! Mars, you don't need two people to capture one of those pizza V bases. One can do it. :lol
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There are THREE reasons why the furballers can't see that moving the bases closer together creates a problem for the strat flyers.
They think that strat-play is synonymous with fuel porking.
They don't play the strat game themselves and therefore don't understand it and don't know what they're talking about.
They can't see that trying to capture a base that's within earshot of another one is going to lead to a conveyor belt of goon/troop killers.
No Mars, I think you were missing my point. My point was about being able to capture a base by stealth instead of by numerical supremacy.
Your point was that moving bases closer together makes it harder for the strat guys. Don't change the subject.
The numbers cry is moot, because no matter what you do with the strat game if you have a horde you will win the base.
I agree the strat game is nothing more than the country with the most players wins.
That is not the debate and moving the bases closer actually reduces the ability for the horde to be affective, because the defenders can up from a base close by. This creates a need for the horde to break up and attack multiple bases at the same time or a furball will ensue.
I could care less if a base gets captured, as far as I'm concerned if there is a good furball going on you can have all the other bases. So defence etc who cares.
If you are the only person taking a base what difference does it make if there is a field close by or not? Someone could up from the field you are at and defend. IT has nothing to do with the proximety of the bases.
Strat should need a concerted effort by a minimal number of people to take an airfield. Again The bottom line is you dont want to be challenged or your skill tested. You want easy to capture bases with very little opposition.
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Originally posted by mars01
Your point was that moving bases closer together makes it harder for the strat guys. Don't change the subject.
No, my point was that it makes it too easy for the opportunist goon hunter - an entirely different matter. And that opportunist goon hunter will almost always be up in an LA7. I notice from the stats that you get the vast majority of your kills in an LA7, which tells me a lot about you. Coming from a guy who also said "The bottom line is you dont want to be challenged or your skill tested." it cracks me up. :lol EasyMode™! "I could care less if a base gets captured, as far as I'm concerned if there is a good furball going on you can have all the other bases. So defence etc who cares.
BS. I've checked your career stats, and you have killed 178 goons. Is that your idea of a test of your skill? You whine about guys going after "defenceless" bases, but you're quite happy to whack a defenceless goon. If you REALLY don't care about losing bases, and if you REALLY enjoy a test of skill, then why all the goon killing? They are the easiest kills of all. Seems like your "test of skill" is flying LA7s and whacking goons - at the same time claiming you don't care if you lose bases.
Doesn't add up.
Try again!
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/mars01.jpg)
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I notice from the stats that you get the vast majority of your kills in an LA7, which tells me a lot about you.
It tells you nothing about me. I do fly an La7 alot to chase down all the runners. But I also turn fight in an La7, just the other week I was turn fighting a Zeke with an La7 and winning. Something I doubt you or any of those like you would or could do. That is a challenge a test of skill.
BS. I've checked your career stats, and you have killed 178 goons. Is that your idea of a test of your skill? You whine about guys going after "defenceless" bases, but you're quite happy to whack a defenceless goon. If you REALLY don't care about losing bases, and if you REALLY enjoy a test of skill, then why all the goon killing? They are the easiest kills of all. Seems like your "test of skill" is flying LA7s and whacking goons - at the same time claiming you don't care if you lose bases.
Now this is just stupid, yeah beet I wont kill goon if I see one, how stupid are you?
Again since you have no good reson why the bases should not be moved closer together other than it's harder to strat, you try to change the subject, which means you have no reson to not move the bases closer together.
And my history should show me being more of a strat player, thats what I started as, because it is much easier to be a strat homo than a furball homo.
But since then I realized how stupid the strat game is and how much more rewarding the AtoA game is and have worked at getting better at it.
Thus I could care less what bases are captured if there is a good furball going on.
If there are no furballs, which is usually the case becaue of the shty maps, then I will up for base defence because thats all there is for AtoA and unfortunately its mostly jabo morons coming in.
Thus my stance to move the bases closer and create an opportunity for more furballs to exist and you can skillessly sneak all the undefended bases you want.
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Slap, looking at the early part of your post, you still seem to be equating fuel porkage with "strat play". I haven't fuel porked in months.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't fuel bunkers a "strat" target ? Ergo, it is part of the "strateegery" and its seems to be the most popular strat target these days. Don't want to fight anybody ... go pork their fuel so that can't do anything.
I never said you did pork fuel. I know how much you despise it and would assume that you don't.
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Ya mean my idea for the fuel on early war planes was that boring huh? Gosh, I've never been disappointed for not getting flamed. I was certain some late-war-fly-realistically pilots would tell me what a goober I am.
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Lol,
your right Steve I was wondering myself. I guess it was too good of an idea:D
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Originally posted by Steve
Ya mean my idea for the fuel on early war planes was that boring huh? Gosh, I've never been disappointed for not getting flamed. I was certain some late-war-fly-realistically pilots would tell me what a goober I am.
Steve your idea is completely stupid and full of BS. It would never work. Only a dim witted individual as yourself could come up with such a lame-brain idea. Geesh ... get real or get out.
Feel better !!! ... :D
Ok ... I like it !!! ;)
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Thanks, Slap... feel better already. :)
Lol Mars,
The sound of slience caught me way offguard.... you could be right.
Edit: silence
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>>I've checked your career stats..<<
Now what is that? An outside database of AH pilots?
Ok, this is really unhealthy:eek:
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Mars,
Again since you have no good reson why the bases should not be moved closer together
I have given reasons. And they are, IMO, good reasons else I wouldn't have given them. Just because you don't agree with my reasons or because you prefer furballing does not mean that my reasons don't exist. And I'm not the only one to see problems with having the fields too close. Talk to MiniD. And read wolfgang's comments - pink text in my sig.
Slapshot! Correct me if I am wrong
Naah, sounds like a full time job. Muhahahaha! :rofl
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;) Yes of course the fuel is a strat target. Maybe there was a time when bombers would carpet bomb an enemy airfield, and the fuel supplies would get hit in all the havoc. But nowadays, the fuel tanks are singled out for destruction. I killed a tardling P38 last night who was doing that, and had no intention of surviving anyway. That's not a strat player. That's a ruin-the-game-for-everyone-else player. Did you come from WB? In WB, runway damage actually counted. Taxi over a crater and your plane would fall apart. What the fun killers used to do was to bomb the spawn points so that planes would blow up as they spawned. The guys that did this probably had no intention of capturing the base - same as the fuel porkers in AH.
I think successful strat play is a matter of deploying resources to kill the town, VH, and possibly the acks, and capping the base or perhaps using decoys to distract the base defenders while the goon slips in from another direction. Being able to do this with as few people as possible is a test of management skill. Like you said, the AKs and MAW are in their element at that game. They're the real strat players. The fuel porkers are just a thundering nuisance.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>I've checked your career stats..<<
Now what is that? An outside database of AH pilots?
Ok, this is really unhealthy:eek:
Yes, Tweet :) I think MiniD manages it. Here's a sample URL which shows Mars01's stats, sorted by number of kills IN.
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=mars01&sortby=killsin_sort <-- right click for full link
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I have given reasons. And they are, IMO, good reasons else I wouldn't have given them. Just because you don't agree with my reasons or because you prefer furballing does not mean that my reasons don't exist.
I'll Beat this dead horse one more time. You reasons and your BS in pink have all been shot full of holes in multiple threads. Just because you give resons doesn't make em right and you know it. See my other posts in this thread as a rebuttle to your thin resons.
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Mars01,
I've read all your posts, and that is not MY BS in pink. Those are Wolfgang's remarks. The fact that you called it my BS tells me you didn't even bother to read it. Talk about biased. :rolleyes: Wolfgang set it up, and those were his observations, not mine. But those observations concur with my own entirely.
The reasons I gave for not wanting the bases too close together are perfectly valid. Your rebuttal comes in the form of "I can't see why the fields should not be closer together so that I can find my furballs more quickly and easily. The only people who don't want the fields to be closer are the strat players. I don't think much of them and I'm not interested in their style of play, so any reason they come up with doesn't count". I find your attitude to be akin to that of Marie Antoinette - "Let them eat cake", she said in response to the plight of starving French peasants in the 18th century.
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beetlle.. I think he means that since you quoted it you must think it is correct ... since it is BS, or, more accurately, applies to nothing more than some head to head stuff... it is fair to say "your BS in pink"
by quoteing it yu are owning it.
lazs
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How can an observation be BS?
:rolleyes:
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I've read all your posts, and that is not MY BS in pink. Those are Wolfgang's remarks.
I am not going to search through all the old threads just to prove you wrong. It was stated in another thread on this topic that the comment from wolfgang which is your BS in pink was based on HtoH or something whatever and Festers map has proved that it is BS.
We have been through this time and time again. Furballs are few and far between because of the proximity of the bases.
I can't see why the fields should not be closer together so that I can find my furballs more quickly and easily. The only people who don't want the fields to be closer are the strat players. ".
Now I know your desperat since you are saying things that I said which I have not. It's not about finding furballs, they dont exist on maps like pizzacrap and others where the fields are poorly spaced.
I don't think much of them and I'm not interested in their style of play, so any reason they come up with doesn't count
More beetle BS, I do care that everyone gets to play their own way. It has been proven and stated with fester map that the bases closer together does not take away from any style of game play, but does allow furballs and early war planes to exist. And the only problem you have with it is it is harder to do some unskilled, undefended vbase captures.
It is you that has said in past post that you dont care about furballers and wether or not they exist.
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exactly laz
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Originally posted by beet1e
How can an observation be BS?
:rolleyes:
ob·ser·va·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bzr-vshn)
n.
1a. The act or faculty of observing.
1b. The fact of being observed.
2a. The act of noting and recording something, such as a phenomenon, with instruments.
2b. The result or record of such notation: a meteorological observation.
3. A comment or remark. See Synonyms at comment.
4. An inference or a judgment that is acquired from or based on observing.
easily if one uses definition #3 or 4, which is what your usage indicates. what it suggests is that your interpretation and commentary upon what you've observed is faulty.
:p
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It's getting late and I'm too tired to argue with you, Mars. I quoted an actual scenario that happened on the pizza map last week. That would have been most unlikely on Fester's old map because an LA7 would be only 2 minutes away.
Sure, you can physically carry bombs and capture fields when the fields are closely spaced, but changes in real estate ownership will only result from use of the steamroller. And that's no fun at all. Hell, when you're jaboing at one field, you're going to show up on the radar at the next field, so killing the radar at the field to be captured might not help.
The reason I "like" the pizza map is because stealth missions become a possibility, and are more difficult for the rapid response units to ruin. Seems like the reason you don't like it is because you get your jollies out of being a member of one such rapid response unit, and on pizza you can't do it. That, plus your ride of choice is wheezing at 15K. :lol
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shane!
what it suggests is that your interpretation and commentary upon what you've observed is faulty.
It wasn't my observation. That came later on FesterMA. A conveyor belt of goons trying to get to the town, and a conveyor belt of LA7s trying to stop them.
Maybe you think wolfgang is a liar?
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wlfgang's observation is faulty.
there's plenty of variety on festerma. he was just too lazy too look for it. much like you insist there *are* furballs on pizzugh and that lazs, et al are too lazy to find them.
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...cake?
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The reason I "like" the pizza map is because stealth missions become a possibility, and are more difficult for the rapid response units to ruin. Seems like the reason you don't like it is because you get your jollies out of being a member of one such rapid response unit, and on pizza you can't do it. That, plus your ride of choice is wheezing at 15K.
Well Beet and thats where the maps should be worked. Much like Fester did. The first version of his map had all the fields closely packed and it was awsome.
The second version of Fester he left the center of the map closely packed and spread the fields out from there. Thus he created a map where you would get you lollys and I would get mine. See on maps like pizza all the fields are spaced far apart. You get all your jollies and I wait for Festers map. Why can't some of the fields be moved closer, while other are not. Then once again I can get my jollies on pizza map as well and we would never have threads like this again.:D :aok
And if you really cared and noticed things, you would have noticed my new favorite ride:p
And if the dam fields were closer I could fly other things. :aok
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Mars, I see that cordiality is returning! :)
A few months ago, when the current vogue tactic of fuel porkage began to get out of hand, some people called for bombs to be perked, and some called for various targets to be hardened. And I became very indignant about these proposals. I have had to defend HQ at times, and I've also had to resupply it. I have no problem with unperked bombs and the fact that my fighter hangars were once destroyed by an organised wave of 110s. They deserved the results they procured, so to them. What I was against was said changes being made for no other reason than to accommodate the players who couldn't be arsed to defend those strat objects.
But then Toad and others observed that whereas it took only one unskilled lemming to pork the fuel to 25% (in two or three passes) it required seven man-sorties to resupply it to 125%. At the height of the debacle, I tried a fuel pork run myself. And it was ridiculously easy, and survivable if the acks were down. And it became clear that with so many tardz who fly a porkage run with no intention of surviving that we had a dilemma. Someone with no skill could ruin the fight. I myself enjoy capture missions, but also the air to air combat which arises from those attempts - and I don't mean vulching. Removing the enemy's option to fight back seemed like the act of a cad.
In the case of fuel porking, the effect that one tard could have in ruining the situation for everyone trying to defend that base and the ease with which it could be done was out of all proportion to the enemy's ability to defend it.
And that's pretty much how I feel about rapid response LA7 goon-kill patrols upping from a neighbouring field to intercept a goon. Planning a field capture without using the steamroller method, ie doing it the way the MAW or AKs would do it requires planning, coordination and timing. The town has to be taken down all at once, or else bits of it will be rebuilding as the troops come in. Now I would have no problem if an LA7 ups at the base being attacked. We can plan for that. But when there are several bases from which that LA7 can spawn, each of which is only a couple of minutes away, there's nothing we can do about it except cover the goon as best we can, which is going to give away its position.
Thus you can see that ONE unskilled LA7 goon hunting tard can ruin an operation which most likely involved five or more players. And THAT is why I don't like the fields too close together. Sure, up another goon - it won't be a long flight on a map like Fester's, but that scenario quickly develops into conveyor belt/steamroller.
The same problem exists for buff squads since the introduction of the Me163. It takes a buff squadron a long time to climb to 25K and make the long flight to enemy HQ. And it takes only one person to ruin it, with minimal effort.
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From my point of view Beetle, the "closer fields" allow people to STOP the steamroller, or at least fight back. What I see, personally, is that on ALL maps now the only way the "front" moves is when one side applies overwhelming numbers. On most of our maps that works great (actually, it works great on all of our maps). What typically happens is that you'll see 40 or 50 planes attacking an undefended base, while penny-packets of 3 or 4 move on to the next 2-3 bases to pork the fuel to keep a fight from developing.
If the bases were closer together (say 12 miles instead of the typical 25 to 50 miles), the defenders would have more options as far as defending the fields go. The attackers would have to pork the fuel at say 6 bases instead of 2 to ensure that nobody would be willing to fight back at their original "target". Would this lead to more "la7 conveyor belts"? Of course. But that isn't a function of the fields being closer together, it is a function of what planes people are willing to fly. It doesn't matter how close the fields are, you are never going to see a conveyor belt of Spit 1's or c202's.
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yep.. it really is that simple urchin.
beelte... you really must try one tour in early/slow planes to see what is going on. try spit 5 hurri or Fm2 P40 zeke for instance for a tour.. try to get in some prime time playing.
lazs
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Beet ... If I read you right ... the bottom line of your post is that closer fields makes it MUCH harder to actually capture fields without some real organization involved.
Isn't that the way it REALLY should be. Capturing fields/towns should require a concerted effort.
When I flew with the MAW, we could take (NOE) at the minimum - 1 goon, 2 110s, 1 Spit/F6f and capture a field before anyone could get wheels up and if they did, the Spit/F6F would fly intercept between the field and the town. The real trick was to have the goon leave way ahead of the pack and then circle just outside of the radar circle. Once the pack got icon range on the goon, everybody headed to target (WEP on). As the last building was being destroyed ... the goon was dropping troops.
This is/was an organized attack but still WAY too easy if you think about it ... field capture it should be harder regardless of field proximity or whatever.
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Beet I understand what you are saying, even though I don't see it that way.
But what I am saying is maps like pizza have all the bases widely spaced. Fester has a range of spacing where both of us are happy. Sure you are probably miserable when you have to work the middle bases and I am miserable when I have to work the outer bases, but we are both happy when you can fly the outer bases and I can fly the inner. On pizza only you are happy and I am miserable no matter where I go.
All I am saying is on the maps where the bases are all a sector or more apart, lets move some of the bases closer together so we can all be happy. Pizza map is so big, I'm sure this can be accomodated.
Pizza Map ignores the furballers while Festers accomodates both and that is why festers map is a great map.