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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vermillion on January 22, 2004, 12:57:14 PM

Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on January 22, 2004, 12:57:14 PM
Ok guys, me and some others have been discussing the merits of the "best" fighters of the 60's and early 70's over on Targetware BBS.

http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2389

If you get some time, drop in and give some feedback.

The F-4 Phantom? The F-8 Crusader? The MiG-21?  The MirageIIIc? Which do you think was the best and why?
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Gunslinger on January 22, 2004, 01:05:55 PM
The F15A was introduced in the early 70s but not really operational.  

The F4 phantom scored the most air to air kills in veitnam (i think I know the first ace from then drove an F4)

I would have to go with the F4 (any series) phantom.  The airframe perfromed a big variety of missions and was best all around.  From personal experience I know the Egress systems are a PAIN to work on though.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: GtoRA2 on January 22, 2004, 01:07:47 PM
F4 all the way. It was and still is an amazing plane.... and what a fantastic looking plane as well.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Kommandant on January 22, 2004, 01:16:17 PM
I personally think it was the F86 Saber Jet, but I am biast

And yes I know, 1950's
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: gofaster on January 22, 2004, 01:24:42 PM
Phantom for its versatility, Crusader for dogfighting prowess, B-52 for longevity.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Virage on January 22, 2004, 01:25:19 PM
Compare planes (http://www.airtoaircombat.com/compare.asp)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: AKCasca on January 22, 2004, 01:27:34 PM
For Dogfighting? The F-8 Crusader.  Hate da Phantom, still carry scars on me head from running into pylons late at night :)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Mini D on January 22, 2004, 01:30:07 PM
Phantom. Hands down the best.  Well... once they put a cannon back in it.

MiniD
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: FUNKED1 on January 22, 2004, 01:37:42 PM
The Navy F-4 version with guns.  Navy missiles PWN3D AF missiles.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: rpm on January 22, 2004, 02:09:54 PM
Phantom hands down. Crusaider had the speed, but it was nearly obsolete by the early 60's (altho it flew much longer) and had very limited electronics. Mig would be a close 2nd with it's speed and agility overcoming it's electronic shortcomings.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: FUNKED1 on January 22, 2004, 02:16:55 PM
MiG's also had poor visibility and severe handling problems at high IAS.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vulcan on January 22, 2004, 02:46:26 PM
Hmmm, how about the Buccaneer, or the Lightning. I'd rate the Mirages up there (esp the Israeli variants).
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: straffo on January 22, 2004, 03:11:20 PM
No question : the IAF Shahak










mirage IIIC for you :)
Title: StarFighter
Post by: OntosMk1 on January 22, 2004, 03:17:15 PM
f-104 Star Fighter
do the research, you'll find that Ol Kelly from Lockheed knew what the heck he was doing ;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Dowding on January 23, 2004, 12:37:16 AM
English Electric Lightning.

Mach 2 fighter, 50,000 feet per minute climb rate - still holds several world records for climb to altitude. Simply an amazing plane. Shame you have to go to South Africa to see one fly - the British government still deems it too competitive to allow it to get in the air, apparently.

(http://www.thundercity.com/PLANES/IMAGES/Lightning%20Vapour.jpg)

(http://www.mrmodels.fsnet.co.uk/lgtvert..jpg)

(http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/Images/Glightning.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Montezuma on January 23, 2004, 01:01:11 AM
F-106 with a Genie missile blows away everything.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: _Schadenfreude_ on January 23, 2004, 01:47:52 AM
Mirage IIIJ (IAF) probably had more kills and had more effect on the battledfield than any other a/c during that period.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: CyranoAH on January 23, 2004, 05:04:40 AM
Mi vote goes to the Mirage IIIc
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: MC_Honky on January 23, 2004, 07:37:00 AM
Thank GOD the Canadians have not come on this board with their "THE AVRO-ARROW WAS THE BEST PLANE EVER!" ;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on January 23, 2004, 08:09:26 AM
Ok, time to throw some numbers into the fray.....  They might dispel some of the "F-4 invincibility Myth".

Admittedly, I don't know as much as I would like about aircraft like the Lightning or the Mirage, so someone feel free to add the numbers from those aircraft.

This data comes from "Clashes, Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972".  Its only accurate for a general comparison, but should be helpful


Gross Weight(lbs) Max Vs (SL, knots) Thrust/Weight Wing Loading (lbs/sq ft)

F-105D 52,000 730 0.745        92
F-4   53,000 710 0.79 81
F-8 30,000 650 0.69 69
MiG-21 16,300 595 0.88 58
MiG-19 16,500 620 0.84 51
MiG-17 12,000 575 0.64 44


Now, don't get me wrong.  The F-4 was an incredible aircraft, and extremely versatile, especially as a fighter-bomber.  But as a pure fighter it has problems.  Its two man crew, radar and BVR capability, and high speed/power makes it an incredible interceptor.  These systems would mature as the 70's went on to make it the best fighter in the world at the time.  But without pulse doppler look down radar, systems failures (common to this period), or ROE that precludes BVR shots, it would have a very difficult time with some of the other pure fighters listed here.  And lets not forget that other planes here also have a limited BVR radar guided capability.

Also lets consider size of the aircraft (ability to spot it), view out of the cockpit (see the enemy), and such things as smoking engines.  So do you still think the F-4 is the best in terms of fighter capability only?

*stokes the fires of discussion* ;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: straffo on January 23, 2004, 08:24:10 AM
use SI damit !

Mirage IIIc
Gross Weight(kg)
7000
Max Vs (SL, km/h)
1,390
Thrust/Weight
0.88
Wing Loading (Kg/m²)
200
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on January 23, 2004, 10:28:48 AM
Gscholz, your probably right, and the author switched them.  But thats straight from the book.

Straffo, the Mirage data looks on the high side.  But thats just a quick glance and I haven't done any checking in my data.  You sure thats right?
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Nomak on January 23, 2004, 11:37:13 AM
He did say 60s and early 70s right?

Wouldnt you have to throw the F-14 "Tomcat" (1973) in there then?

Just curious.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: ravells on January 23, 2004, 11:50:58 AM
What criteria are you using to determine the 'best' fighter?

Ravs
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: MC_Honky on January 23, 2004, 01:24:48 PM
MC_HONKY WILL SPEAK NOW:

US airplanes have an abundance of "intangibles"- things that cannot be measured so easy and never show up in a video game,  Things like:

1)   Build Quality (hell I’ve read reports that La-7’s fell apart in midair frequently).
2)   Reliability
3)   Ergonomics (BIG BIG factor)
4)   Field support

If you could get a Mig19 working properly- a decent pilot that knew how to takeoff and land- decent fuel- and find a Con even though you had only a 20 min. endurance- then you had a good chance (ask the Vietcong).
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Westy on January 23, 2004, 01:38:14 PM
F-104 Starfighter  (damn. just saw Ontos beat me. still...)

(http://members.home.nl/noor.luijkx/northam/f104a-15.jpg)


I win!!


Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Furious on January 23, 2004, 01:55:45 PM
An Air Force, Navy and Marine airframe.  That's a nice quality.
(http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/f4/d4c-118173-12.jpg)
(http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/f4/d4c-117088-12.jpg)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on January 23, 2004, 01:57:34 PM
Someday, I'm going to have to get the flight manual data on the F-104 to see how it really stacks up.  My impression of it was that it would be fast in a straight line, for about 3 mins until the fuel ran out, and thats it ;)  But that is admittedly an uneducated opinon.

As to what aircraft I was intending we consider.  Basically the aircraft that could have or did see combat in Vietnam (72-73), the later Arab-Israeli war, and the India-Pakistani conflict of the same general period.  I personally consider the MiG-23, the F-111 (even though it did see limited use in Vietnam), the F-14, the F-15 to be "next generation" aircraft.  But feel free to use your own definitions.  :)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Nefarious on January 23, 2004, 02:13:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
The Navy F-4 version with guns.  Navy missiles PWN3D AF missiles.


Navy Phantoms never had a internal gun/cannon.

The Navy only used 4 Phantom variants from Carriers.

B/J/N/S

The B was the first Phantom to see Navy Service, followed by the J in the late sixties. The S was the same as the J, with updated electronics, Just as the N was the same as the B, with updated electronics.

The Air Force Echo variant was the first Phantom to have a Internal Gun. And the Navy never used them. Although all Variants of the Phantom, could carry a Vulcan 20mm Gun Pod. The navy saw it more as a hinderance than an effective weapon. As a matter of fact, ive only seen one Photo of a Navy Phantom ever carrying them.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Nefarious on January 23, 2004, 02:20:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
the F-14, the F-15 to be "next generation" aircraft.  But feel free to use your own definitions.  :)



The first F-14 Squadrons (VF-1 and VF-2) saw there first operational cruise in 1973-75? West Pac (Gulf of Tonkin).
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: straffo on January 23, 2004, 02:21:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
Straffo, the Mirage data looks on the high side.  But thats just a quick glance and I haven't done any checking in my data.  You sure thats right?


Well it was from memory at work :)

And my 3 Mirage's  books are now some km away ... en route to djibouti so I'll not have a sure answer before 1/2 week :)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Mathman on January 23, 2004, 02:27:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nefarious
Navy Phantoms never had a internal gun/cannon.

The Navy only used 4 Phantom variants from Carriers.

B/J/N/S

The B was the first Phantom to see Navy Service, followed by the J in the late sixties. The S was the same as the J, with updated electronics, Just as the N was the same as the B, with updated electronics.


The S also included the slatted wings.  This, according to my sources, led to a "50 percent improvement in combat turning in comparison with an unslatted F-4J."  It also inlcuded "smokeless" J79's which helped to get rid of the smokey black trail common to the earlier Rhinos.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: MC_Honky on January 23, 2004, 02:28:15 PM
Straffo,

I gotta ask - whats in djibouti ??

I know what it is - why are you going there?
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: qts on January 23, 2004, 02:36:31 PM
It depends what role you want, but for general purpose, although it wasn't proved until the Falklands War in 1982 but I'll go for the Harrier. VSTOL. 'Nuff said!
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: hyena426 on January 23, 2004, 02:50:00 PM
i have to say f-104 starfighter,,that thing still holds the world to clime record to this day i beleve,,and a few othere records,,fast as hell,,climed like a demon,,,first aircraft to sport the vulcan cannon i think<~~not sure on that,,but i remmeber reading it some were


f14 tomcat was made in 1972 or 74 i think,, does it count?,,lol<~~still record holder for low level speed
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: straffo on January 23, 2004, 03:52:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MC_Honky
Straffo,

I gotta ask - whats in djibouti ??

I know what it is - why are you going there?


Me ... nothing :)

It's just a friend of mine who borrowed my books for a short deployement.

There is still some french troops in Djibouti :)

Fyi : http://www.ba188-djibouti.com/
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on January 23, 2004, 04:09:33 PM
Also when the Navy Phantoms went from the B model to the J model, it introduced slotted stabilators and drooped ailerons, so that the approach speed was lowered a little and compensated for a overall heavier aircraft.

The Slated wings were first introduced into the Air Forces E model during the middle of production.  I forget the Block #, but were retrofitted to earlier E models.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: LePaul on January 23, 2004, 04:16:36 PM
Id like to know more about the F-104s too

I read that the Italian Air Force, after many mods and improvements over the years, is retiring their F-104s at the end of '04...replacing them with F-16s
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Dowding on January 23, 2004, 04:19:48 PM
"None of your weedy American Lightnings to be found here! That P-38, well... it ain't noisy enough, it doesn't have flames coming out the back end and it just doesn't compare, full stop. English Electric made the only Lightning worth talking about. If you never saw a Lightning come off the end of the runway and immediately go straight up like a damn rocket making more noise than was believable, then you have my sympathies. You missed one hell of an experience!

While there were rumblings that the American's new F-22 was going to be called the Lightning II, they sensibly decided against it - after all, the F-22's just a box with wings on. No charisma at all. Much better that it is now named after a dinosaur! All this supercruise malarkey - you'd think they invented it or something. Now, continue on and read about the first aircraft with supercruise... the English Electric Lightning."

Mk.3a stats (1964)

Weight empty 28,041 lb

Max Takeoff 41,700 lb

Max Level Speed: Mach 2.27 at 40,000 ft

Initial Climb Rate: 50,000 ft  / min

Service Ceiling: 60,000 ft +

Range typical: 800 m without overwing tanks

Here's a really good comparison of the F-15 and the EE Lightning by an RAF Wing Commander with experience of both planes. Also mentions the Mig-25.

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/lightning/memories.html
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: hyena426 on January 23, 2004, 05:38:34 PM
F-104 as one of the most powerful and good designed planes of its era maintained a lot of world records. Here is a list of its records:
USAF time-to-intercept record : Target: 10669 meter, 227 km. from base time-to-intercept: 8 minutes 59.9 seconds. Average speed 1850 km/h. Performed by Captain M. Schaff, USAF; Captain B. Jones, USAF. 10/12/1958.
World speed record : 2259 km/h (about Mach 2). Performed by Captain W. W. Irwin, USAF. YF-104A. 17/5/1958.
World altitude record : 27,813 meter. Performed by Major Howard C. Johnson, USAF. YF-104A. 7/5/1958. 31,515 meter. Performed by Captain Joe B. Jordan, USAF. F-104C. 14,12,1959.
Women's world speed record. 1936.75 km/h (Mach 1.6). Performed by Jacqueline Cochran. 1/5/1963. 2299.58 km/h (Mach 1.8). Performed by Jacqueline Cochran. 11/5/1963.

World time-to-climb record :

F-104s were very successful and in West Germany they passed out of service only in 1990. The F-104G was the best one among them. The F-104s usually carried one M-61 "Vulcan" cannon and AIM-9B "Sidewinder" heat-seeking missiles



General characteristics F-104A  
Primary function Fighter
Contractor Lockheed Aircraft Corporation
Power plant One General Electric J79-GE-3A/3B turbojet engine with afterburner
Speed max.  1,047 mph 1,669 km/h
min. 195 mph 314 km/h
Initial climb rate 1,006 ft/s 307 m/s
Ceiling 64,830 ft 19,760 m
Range normal 730 miles 1,174 km  
maximum 1,400 miles 2,250 km  
Wingspan 21 ft 9 in 6.6 m
Length 54 ft 8 in 16.7 m
Height 13 ft 5 in 4 m
Weight empty 13,184 lb 5,980 kg
max. takeoff 25,840 lb 11,720 kg
Crew One
Armament One 20mm M61A1 cannon (725 rounds); 2x AIM-9B Sidewinder on wingtips; 4,000 lb of bombs under the wings.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Otto on January 23, 2004, 05:55:20 PM
The F-8.  It was a Fighter.   Everything else was a compromise.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: hyena426 on January 23, 2004, 06:01:02 PM
The Lockheed F-104 Starfighter was nicknamed "the missile with a man in it," since its long, thin fuselage and stubby wings resembled a missile more than a conventional aircraft. The F-104 was the first interceptor in our nation’s service to be able to fly at sustained speeds above Mach 2 (twice the speed of sound).

The Starfighter’s design was radical for its time, as it was a small, straight-wing aircraft while most contemporary designs were much larger and featured swept-back wings. The wingspan is only 21 feet, 11 inches, and the wings themselves have a 100 negative dihedral. The razor-sharp leading edge requires a specialty fitted cover when on the ground to protect the ground crew. A narrow fuselage fits tightly around the power plant, and its forward portion curves down slightly to allow maximum pilot visibility.

The F-104 featured the General Electric 14,800-pound-thrust J79 turbojet engine and afterburner, which occupied more than half the length of the fuselage. The fuel tanks and cockpit took up much of the remainder, so that insufficient space remained for the necessary electronics systems. A series of self-contained electronics packages were

developed which could be ‘plugged in" to suit the individual mission. Basic armament consisted of an M-61 Vulcan 20-mm gun in the fuselage and a Sidewinder GAR-8 missile on each wingtip. The M61 was a Gatling type with multiple rotating barrels and an extremely high rate of fire.

Design of the F-104 began in November 1952. The U.S. Air Force had a requirement for a superior day fighter, and Lockheed began work on its Model 83. Two prototypes, powered by the Wright J65 engine, were ordered by the Air Force in March 1953. On February 7,1954, Lockheed test pilot Tony Le Vier made the first flight in the XC-104. Fifteen YF-104A aircraft, powered by the GE J79 engine, were ordered for testing.

The first F-104A deliveries took place on January 26, 1958. They were delivered to the 83d Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Hamilton Air Force Base. California. Soon afterward, pilots from this squadron set new world speed and altitude records. Maj. Howard C. Johnson established a world airplane altitude record of 91,249 feet on May 7. 1958. On May 16, 1958, Capt. Walter W. Irvin established a world speed record of 1,404.19 mph. The F-104 also established seven climb-to-height records. Four of these replaced old records: the 15000 meter, 20.000 meter. and 25.000 meter climbs set completely new records.

The major variants were the F-104B, a two-seat version of the F-104A, used as an operational trainer: the F-104C, modified for use by the Tactical Air Command with provision for inflight refueling: and the F-104D, a two-seat version of the F-104C.

The majority of Starfighters were used in foreign service. Most of the F-l04Gs, F-l04Js, and CF104s were built under license in NATO and SEATO countries. The basic Starfighter was modified to be a multimission fighter with considerably strengthened structure and different operational equipment.

On October 12. 1959. the Starfighter protect was awarded the Collier Trophy.

Starfighters served in the Air Force until the early 1960s. A few saw service in Vietnam. and they were also used in Air National Guard units until 1975. Their European counterparts stayed in service even longer.

The museum’s specimen is a Lockheed F-104A, military serial number 55-2961, the seventh F-104A produced (formerly a YF-104A). It was procured by the NASA Flight Research Center (then NACA High Speed Flight Station) at Edwards Air Force Base. California. on August 23. 1956. It was first flown by NASA on August 27. 1956, and logged 1.439 flights over a period of nineteen years.

The airplane. NASA number 818. was used in a number of research programs at Edwards It was used in the evaluation program of the Starfighter at first and was later used to help confirm wind tunnel data in actual flight, as a flying testbed, and as a chase plane. It was a part of the research program that led to the X-15 airplane program; a particularly important phase was the testing of reaction type controls.

Nineteen pilots flew the 818. Among them were three Apollo astronauts. including Neil Armstrong seven X-15 pilots, including Joe Walker: and six lifting body pilots. It made its last operational flight on August 26. 1975. and was flown to Andrews Air Force Base. near Washington D.C.. for transfer to the National Air and Space Museum later that year.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: LePaul on January 23, 2004, 06:44:56 PM
There was a pilot here locally who was in the warbird biz, trading planes back and forth.  He had an F-104 that came from Norway (maybe Sweden)...it had effectively sat in a roadside hangar and maintained quite nicely for years.  He invited me to the hangar to see it up close and wow...it had the wings off, being refurbished...but just amazing.

He traded/sold it a while ago and teased he'd let me know if he wanted to part with it.  

If you think my BD-5 building was a short trip to suicide, can you imagine me in owning an F-104??  Geez with my income, I could only afford to fly it once a year!!  Par in insurance, training, etc etc..omg!
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: hyena426 on January 23, 2004, 07:20:12 PM
wow,,it would be so cool to own a peice of history,,any war jet would be killer,,but i allways liked the f-104,,fast and never took to its max,,i remmeber reading about a rich private owner tring to break the low level speed record he beat it<~was held by a modifide f-4 phant,,,then navy came out with the f14 tomcat that beat his record for low level,,,the guy came back out to beat the navy's record and died in the attempt,,,ever sence then,,they wont let any private owners go for speed records anymore in military aircraft,,i dont think they will let private owners even break the sound barrier right? against fcc regs i beleve

my cousin is a engineer and was taught under a guy who did most of the work on the f-104,,he told my cousin little secrets they had to do to make it fly,,like channeling heat from the motors threw little groves in the wings to create hot air over the wings,,so they would have more lift<~~guess the wings were too small to get anuff lift for it to fly,,he gots alot of f-104 info,,ill have to dig him for alittle more
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Cobra412 on January 23, 2004, 08:15:51 PM
If F-15's were included in the early 70's category I'd have to pick them.  I'am partial to them as I work them for a living.  And as far as climb to altitude records I don't believe the F-15 has tried for any serious records since the original Streak Eagle.  Beings it was only using PW100 engines I'm sure the newer engines could easily out perform what it did but by how much who knows.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: LePaul on January 23, 2004, 10:37:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
That would be a CF-104. We sold them when we bought F-16s in the early '80s, but we kept two to train aircraft mechanics (one in a mechanic school here in my home town). We also got one of John Travolta's Learjets. :D


I was asking my friend who saw it with me...you're right, its one of yours.  (He also jested "I recall you grasping for your checkbook when he said 'Might be for sale'  LOL)

One of the guys here is a retired jet engine mechanic, loves to talk about working on J79s..teases me about us "pitching in and getting one from the boneyard and get it flying"...:eek:

An R2 dome behind the cockpit would look kinda cool  :p
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: lasersailor184 on January 23, 2004, 11:35:52 PM
I can't believe you guys are even asking this!!



The best airplane of the 60's and early 70's is the p47 Thunderbolt.  It saw use throughout Vietnam as a close air support plane.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Raubvogel on January 24, 2004, 12:28:45 AM
Huh?

My Big Coloring Book of Fighter Planes doesn't say that!
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: mrblack on January 24, 2004, 12:42:50 AM
F-4
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Rino on January 24, 2004, 09:08:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
The Navy F-4 version with guns.  Navy missiles PWN3D AF missiles.


     What navy missiles would those be?  The same sidewinders
and sparrows the Air Force used? ;)

     For what it's worth. I worked fire control on 1967-8 Block 35
F-4Es in the early eighties, so I'm voting for Double Ugly :aok

     Rino
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Nefarious on January 24, 2004, 01:17:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
What navy missiles would those be?  The same sidewinders
and sparrows the Air Force used? ;)
 



Quote from F-8 Crusader Units of the Vietnam War

Pickings were lean for the next three years, with only one Navy F-4 crew getting a kill in 1970. It was not until the heavy combat in the Spring of 1972 that US Crews began to score again, altough the VPAF's maturing tactics and experience resulted in several periods of suprising success against Air Force Phantom II's, whose crews still struggled with outdated combat formations and frustrating failures with the service's two primary aerial missiles, the Aim-4 Falcon and the Aim-7 Sparrow-Air Force F-4s and the Navy's latest Sidewinder missile variant were not technically compatible.



I'm not sure what variant they are talking about...So you see not all were the same.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Gunslinger on January 24, 2004, 02:16:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I can't believe you guys are even asking this!!



The best airplane of the 60's and early 70's is the p47 Thunderbolt.  It saw use throughout Vietnam as a close air support plane.


U got to be kidding me right?   Is this what your referring too?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/7/75/A1.skyraider.750pix.jpg)

If so this is the A1 Skyraider and it was one of the only prop driven attack aircraft flown by the USA in the 60's and 70's

AWSOME plane though...could carry its own weight in ord.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: vorticon on January 24, 2004, 02:58:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MC_Honky
Thank GOD the Canadians have not come on this board with their "THE AVRO-ARROW WAS THE BEST PLANE EVER!" ;)
(http://www.avroarrow.org/images/newpics/DND/Linenotext1.gif)  
fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.
4) First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.
5) First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.
6) First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.
7) First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.
8) First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.
9) First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.
10) First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and  others certainly used that idea.
11) First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.
12) First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).
13) First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.
14) Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.
15) Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).
16) Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.
17) Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.
18) Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)
19) Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)
20) First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.
21) First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.
22) First oxygen-injection re-light system.
23) First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.
24) First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.
25) First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.
26) First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.
27) First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)  

Wingspan: 50 feet
Lenght: 85 feet 6 inches
Height: 21 feet 3 inches
Weight (empty) 43 960 pounds
Weight (max take-off) 62 430 pounds
Cruising speed: 701 mph (Mach 1.06)  
Max speed: 1 312 mph (Mach 1.98)
Climbing speed(0 to 50 000 feet) 4 minutes 24 seconds
Operating ceiling: 58 500 feet
Interception ceiling: 75 000 feet
Powerplants: 2 x Pratt Withney J-75 rated at 23 450 pounds each  
   
-capable of sustaining 1 (or was it 2) G manouvers at mach 1.5 without a loss of E

fine...i'll do it



1) First a/c designed with digital computers being used for both aerodynamic analysis and designing the structural matrix (and a whole lot more).
2) First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.
3) First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational

oh wait it was a plane of the 50's...i guess it doesnt count...

BEST PLANE EVAR !!!111ONEONEONE

:D
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on January 24, 2004, 03:34:31 PM
Nefarious, there were few kills from 1969 to 1972 because the US pretty much stayed out of North Vietnam except for recon flights , "reaction" fights, and a few excursions.

The AIM-4 Falcon was a Air Force IR missile that was a dismal failure, and the fighter squadrons quickly stopped using them.  Both the USAF and the USN used the AIM-7E and AIM-7E2, but technically they tended to have high failure rates, and the Navy effectively stopped using them for a while, preferring Sidewinders.  

By the 1972+ phase of the war, the USAF and the USN used two different varients of the AIM-9, which were technically different and incompatible.  The Navy varient was better.

In regards to the outdated tactics, its referring to the USAF's use of the WWII style tactics of the "Finger Four" unit style of flying which was not very flexible and effectively used 4 aircraft to have one designated "shooter".  The Navy used the more modern tactics (and very similar to the wingman tactics we use) of "Loose Duece" where the "lead plane" switched off between the two pilots at need, and was much more flexible.

Just trying to explain some of the references in your quote.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Cobra412 on January 24, 2004, 04:54:02 PM
The "loose deuce" tactic that was implemented is not much different than what was used in WWII.  It has very few minor changes compared to the "double attack" tactics doctrine.

The only minor difference is the fact the Fighter/Free Fighter roles have changed ever so slightly.  The Fighter was expected to get the kill where as the Free Fighter was only there for support/lookout during an engagement if roles turned on the Fighter.

The "loose duece" tactic actually allows either aircraft to be the fighter at any given time.  Key in these is switching roles constantly during the engagement fluidly.

This doctrine is infact better than the old "fighting wing" tactic but that had already been figured out during WWII and is why the "double attack" doctrine was put in place.  Then later on during Vietnam the "loose duece" doctrine was implemented using only a slight variation.

The Finger Four formations wasn't necessarily the issue as was the "double attack" doctrine itself.  Using one fighter out of the flight of four wasn't exactly correct either.  Each flight consisted of 2 groups of wingmen and in that flight they could split the flight and use bracketing techniques within the two seperate sets of wignmen.  But ofcourse every engagement determined how the fight was pursued with so many different variables.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: lasersailor184 on January 24, 2004, 05:11:13 PM
No, definately not referring to A1 "Sandies".
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Gunslngr on January 29, 2004, 06:21:32 AM
Oh my other brother Gunslinger,
You forget the A/B-26 Invader. It was used in 40's, 50's, 60's
and 70's ( and probably in some special operations in the 80's).

One could also make an arguement for the AC-47 and AC-130
gunships


(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/attack/a4/b26k-1b.jpg)







Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
U got to be kidding me right?   Is this what your referring too?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/7/75/A1.skyraider.750pix.jpg)

If so this is the A1 Skyraider and it was one of the only prop driven attack aircraft flown by the USA in the 60's and 70's

AWSOME plane though...could carry its own weight in ord.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: 2Slow on March 22, 2004, 01:41:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Phantom. Hands down the best.  Well... once they put a cannon back in it.

MiniD


Crusader would be a close second or tied with the F4.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Thrawn on March 22, 2004, 08:34:29 PM
A couple of Canadian pilots in CF-104s shot down a couple F-15s in a two on two exercise.  To add insult to injury, the Canadians flew the entire engagement with flaps and wheels down.  :)



PS:  NEVAR FORGET THE ARROW!!
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: SunTracker on March 22, 2004, 09:33:03 PM
Canada also tricked a U.S. aircraft carrier into thinking a lighthouse was another ship-

NOT
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Thrawn on March 22, 2004, 09:58:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
Canada also tricked a U.S. aircraft carrier into thinking a lighthouse was another ship-

NOT



Of course not, but my statment isn't that unbelievable if given proper context.  

Does anyone know how many training flights a month USAF F-15 pilots went on, in the late 70s early 80s?
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Glasses on March 22, 2004, 10:06:47 PM
Crusader although the Phantom holds a special place in my heart for being  the workhorse of the 60s as far as fighters go.

Still the F-8 is coolest :D
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: NUKE on March 22, 2004, 10:09:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
A couple of Canadian pilots in CF-104s shot down a couple F-15s in a two on two exercise.  To add insult to injury, the Canadians flew the entire engagement with flaps and wheels down.  :)



PS:  NEVAR FORGET THE ARROW!!


Yeah, the Arrow was so good, I bet it could be world class today....unlike the F-15.

Truth is that the Arrow was a waste of money and it's mission was outdated  almost before it flew.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Thrawn on March 23, 2004, 02:07:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, the Arrow was so good, I bet it could be world class today....unlike the F-15.


Who said the F-15 wasn't any good.  No one.  Are you seeing things.  :o



Quote
Truth is that the Arrow was a waste of money



It was a waste of money, it might not have been if they had completed the order.

Quote
and it's mission was outdated  almost before it flew.


So we went on to replace the Bomarks with Voodoos why?  
;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: -dead- on March 23, 2004, 09:05:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
Phantom for its versatility, Crusader for dogfighting prowess, B-52 for longevity.
I'd put the B-52 down as one of the worst fighters ever. ;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: bpti on March 23, 2004, 09:24:16 AM
F105!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on March 23, 2004, 01:06:35 PM
Wow... talk about reviving a dead thread.

I'd like to see the source on the F-104 vs F-15 story :)

The F-105 while it did great service is not really a fighter.  It was pretty much designed to be a bomber, and thats how it flew.  Calling it a lead sled is not inaccurate in the least.

I see a lot of people are fans of the F-8.  Which was a good plane.  But I wonder why most people discount the MiG-19S and the MiG-21's.  Both were excellent fighters for their time, and given equal pilots..... well its a moot point isn't it ;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: vorticon on March 23, 2004, 01:50:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, the Arrow was so good, I bet it could be world class today....unlike the F-15.

Truth is that the Arrow was a waste of money and it's mission was outdated  almost before it flew.


1. doubt it could be world class today but it would lasted for a while...and its successor would be good...

2. actually the cost to create a single arrow was quite a bit less than the cost canada payed a few years later to buy  planes from the USA...it certainly outclassed the other fighters of its day...and how could its mission be outdated before it flew if not to many years later we purchased american planes for the same mission?

the iriqous engine would have had a 1:1 weight:thrust ratio...and it had a ceiling of 75 000 feet...the only thing on it that would have been "outdated" on it was the BOMARC missiles...
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: MotorOil on March 23, 2004, 03:58:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MC_Honky
Thank GOD the Canadians have not come on this board with their "THE AVRO-ARROW WAS THE BEST PLANE EVER!" ;)


Was just thinking about that.

Avro-Arrow gets my vote.  Would have eaten the F-4 alive as an interceptor.  Probably wouldn't have been that great in the ground attack roll.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: GtoRA2 on March 23, 2004, 04:35:10 PM
Laser
 you may want to exspand your P-47 thing then? I do not think the airforce kept many past like 55 in reserve or gaurd units.

I do not think it was used at that much in South america I do not think the french used it, but I could be wrong..

I am pretty sure it never saw service in Vietnam after WW2.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: AVRO1 on March 23, 2004, 06:34:26 PM
AVRO ARROW gets my vote too. :cool:
But then I am biased since I am CANADIAN. :D

Many of AVRO'S enginneers went on to work for NASA and on the Concorde after Diefenbunker's stupid decision.


Edited for cause of memory holes cause by those damn aliens night visitors. :D
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Torque on March 23, 2004, 06:42:34 PM
It was Diefenbaker that canned the Arrow, Pearson was LBJ's biatch.

There is still a few 1/4 scale test prototypes on the bottom of Lake Ontario. ;)
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Thrawn on March 23, 2004, 09:29:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
Wow... talk about reviving a dead thread.

I'd like to see the source on the F-104 vs F-15 story :)


You would have to come to Ottawa.  :)

My father told me the story a while ago.  He was part of the ground crew with a couple CF-104 squadrons (441 and the 429), which were part of 1 Canadian Air Group at Candian Forces Base Baden-Soligen.  He heard the story sometime between 79-84.  

I could just be BS.  But it wouldn't surprise me if it true.  The 104 pilots were apparently going on 1 to 2 training sorties a day and that sounds like a hell of alot to me.  And after all I thought the mantra here was, "It's the pilot, not the plane.".  ;)

There's a fellow on this BBS that was also with the 429, he may know more about it.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Wolfala on March 23, 2004, 09:59:13 PM
Range typical: 800 m without overwing tanks




800 meters without overwing tanks...sounds like my P38!!!!!
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vulcan on March 23, 2004, 10:20:41 PM
I remember back when I was in Air Cadets there was an ANZUS exercise in Aussie, two RNZAF Skyhawks bounced and got gun kills for two F-15's.

Our Skyhawks had no radar, no locking equipment, just cannons or IR IIRC...
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Gixer on March 23, 2004, 10:42:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
I remember back when I was in Air Cadets there was an ANZUS exercise in Aussie, two RNZAF Skyhawks bounced and got gun kills for two F-15's.

Our Skyhawks had no radar, no locking equipment, just cannons or IR IIRC...



That's impossible Vulcan, the F15 has a 200 and something to 0 K/D ratio. LOL
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Vermillion on March 24, 2004, 08:44:40 AM
Thrawn, anything is possible :) I was just wondering what the situation was.

Vulcan, if the ROE of the engagement was setup as a required visual identification before firing, its definitely possible that a well flown A-4 could outfly a F-15.  Just as in Vietnam where MiG-17s shotdown F-4's, because the F-4 wasn't allowed to use its standoff capabilities and it got drawn into close in dogfights.  Same with the A-4.  Its nimble, agile, and quick, and if the F-15 pilots made mistakes they could easily be "killed" in a guns/IR only environment.
Title: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
Post by: Nilsen on March 24, 2004, 08:48:52 AM
very hard to compare planes unless they met eachother using same tactics, numbers and pilots with same training.