Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bullethead on January 22, 2004, 11:27:04 PM
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I've been looking through the stock skins for AH2 so far available and I hate to say it, but I'm extremely disappointed not to see any new plane parts to skin. I just don't see any changes from AH1 in this regard. If I missed the new parts, please point them out to me.
But assuming I'm right, then AH2 skins will have all the same limitations that AH1 skins had. For them as don't know, here are some of those problems for the AH2 planes that currently exist:
- P51D: only 1 horizontal stabilizer texture, which is used for both top and bottom. So the upper and lower surfaces will always be the same color. Thus, no camo'd 51Ds with OD on the top and gray on the bottom. Given that the AH2 skin sheets so far are laid out just like the AH1 skins for the same plane, I expect this problem to continue on all monochrome planes (silver and blue) as they are introduced, just like it did in AH1. So no camo P38s, P47D30s, TBMs, F6Fs, Kates, Vals, or A6M2s, either.
- Both P51s: use of shared decals in MARKINGS.bmp for national insignia on wing. Thus probably no way to change the insignia of 1 without changing the other's, plus you're stuck with the decal unless you want insignia on both wings.
- C47 and B26: only 1 nacelle side texture, so there's no way to put an anti-glare panel on the inner side of a silver plane.
- Spits: no separate textures for the cannon fairings, so I suppose their paint will be snatched out of the middle of the upper wing surface again, which means that if you change the camo pattern from stock, you'll get multi-colored cannon tubes.
- All Planes: only 1 lower wing texture that's used for both sides. If this continues, there'll again be no way to do the Brit 1940 1/2 black-1/2 white belly, nor the 1941 "U.S. ARMY" on the bottom of the wing.
I was really hoping that this time, HTC would give us a separate terxture for each part of the plane at least. Not having this imposes very severe limits on the types of skins we can make :(
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Is this true? Will there be an update, this is just a beta, you know, maybe it will get made up....
Would be such a shame....
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Both P51s: use of shared decals in MARKINGS.bmp for national insignia on wing. Thus probably no way to change the insignia of 1 without changing the other's, plus you're stuck with the decal unless you want insignia on both wings.
The interiors parts, this time, I think can be used all separate for all planes.
I've done an Adolf Galland pilot skin, placed it in one plane folder. It doesn't show in the other planes, only that specific plane.. which probably means the cockpit guages and stuff, can be also customized(although probably unacceptable for MA).
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Kweassa said:
The interiors parts, this time, I think can be used all separate for all planes. I've done an Adolf Galland pilot skin, placed it in one plane folder. It doesn't show in the other planes, only that specific plane.
So you can tweak the decal insignia for the P51B w/out ruining it for the P51D. Well, that's cool as far as it goes, but it still leaves the bigger problem of having decal insignia at all. The 51s have wing decals because they only have 1 upper wing surface texture, which gets mirrored. So you can't avoid the decal without getting insignia on both wings, and Brit (for example) camo patterns would be the same on both wings.
I know this is a beta and all, so I hope this situation changes.
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That is the way they are going to stay. It's not a mistake. It's done to conserve download sizes, and also to fit in with video memory requirements in the game while maintain good quality. If we did another texture for the other wings of the, for example, that would double the video memory requirement and the download size. I don't foresee us changing that any time soon.
The guages are the same for all planes, except for the british. That may or may not change in the future.
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NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
I was hoping that with the advent of AH2 and the ability to make custom skins that we would have textures that would allow us to make different patterns on the aircraft.
Currently I am working with some new skins in IL-2 and working on some for the Target:Hanoi mod and love the ability to have different textures mapped. Which give us the different color surfaces on both the top and bottom of the aircraft.
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You can still do that. There is nothing stopping you from changing the color. You just have to abide by the format. It's limited, I know, but I work with limits everyday. You work with what you've got.
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nm
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SUPERFLY said:
That is the way they are going to stay. It's not a mistake. It's done to conserve download sizes, and also to fit in with video memory requirements in the game while maintain good quality. If we did another texture for the other wings of the, for example, that would double the video memory requirement and the download size.
I think we're talking past each other.......
I understand about the hardware limitations. However, HTC has already standardized all exterior plane parts on 2 files of the same size for all planes. So whether the plane is camo or not, it still forces the system to handle 2 files of the same size.
So you've got these 2 files for each plane. The only question is how you divide up the area into parts for the exterior surfaces. With camo planes, you need more parts but with monochrome planes, you can get by with mirroring and thus use fewer parts. This means each part for a monochrome plane can be bigger than for a camo plane, and thus have more detail on it. But this precludes you ever putting camo on a monochrome plane, because the necessary parts do not exist.
This is what I wish you'd change. Sure, the silver P51D is beautiful, but IMHO the smaller parts on the camo spits and FWs make equally beautiful planes. Especially at the distances we see them at in the game. I mean, who but a skin artist ever does a lot of close-up walkarounds drooling on the rivets? IOW, to me there is NOT a quality issue here.
So PLEASE consider redoing the arrangement of parts for the monochrome planes. Dispense with mirroring, at least on the upper surfaces, and give us the same parts for each plane whether its stock skin is camo or not. That way, we'd be able to put camo on planes that come silver or blue overall, and thus GREATLY increase the variety in the skins available to the players. And the only cost of doing this would be a slight loss of detail on the stock monochrome planes, that nobody would notice in flight.
If you can't swing separate lower wing surfaces under the hardware constraints, I understand. It's only really an issue for a few early-war planes anyway. I can do without separate parts for spit cannon fairings if you cant squeeze them into some unused corner. But PLEASE let us have both upper wings, both upper stabilizers, and at least 1 separate lower stabilizer for all planes.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
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It won't change any time soon. I'm sorry. It ain't gonna happen. We only have two artists, and we are already redoing 4 years worth of artwork. We have standardized our way of doing things for now. Our primary concern is finishing AH2, not remaking textures that we've already spent a considerable amount time on just to satisfy a few people.
Once AH2:TOD is out, maybe things will change, but that is a long ways away. For now, you will have to work within the limitations given, just as we have to do here.
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Custom Skin feature is great idea for designers! :aok
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Fair enough. Thanks.
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:lol what "new" plane parts were you expecting to be able to skin??? the inside of the fuel tanks...
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Originally posted by vorticon
:lol what "new" plane parts were you expecting to be able to skin??? the inside of the fuel tanks...
Did you not read any post in the thread?
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Once AH2:TOD is out, maybe things will change, but that is a long ways away
Oh oh- the cat is out of the bag.:(
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This is a shame. Quite disappointing, really.
And it's a questionable judgment to say it's something that would please only "a few." The skinning communities of sims that accomodate them are quite large. Who's to say it wouldn't be the same in AH?
You've obviously taken a different approach to the issue of ingame graphics -- which is your prerogative, of course -- so I'll be content, I suppose, that AH2 promises other improvements to look forward to.
Splash1
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Thanks for the input here Superfly. I understand what you are talking about and 1024 is a BIG ARSE texture file to play with for a skin. I am just hoping that the future will allow things like being able to have textures on each side that allow you to alter the look of an aircraft from either side with slightly different camo, etc...
Thanks again!
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"custom skins" term should never be used
i just realize we force HTC to please us and to use it
most of planes never will have correct custom skins
Big size of bitmaps give skinners great possibilyty to beat all other simulator games. Errors and limitation push AH2 3 years back.
(http://www.raf303.org/ramzey/wing.jpg)
whan i notice anouncment about beta 11. I cant wait to download it.
Better i will not describe my feelings now
Good bye
mustang in RAF markings
Good bye
P40 in russian, New zeland, raf markings
Good bye
hurricane from BoB
Good bye........................
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God, some of you guys are serious drama queens
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SUPERFLY said:
Once AH2:TOD is out, maybe things will change
I certainly hope it does. I think you're quite wrong to say making the change would satisfy only "a few people". The number of guys who can make skins to your standards might indeed be small, but the number of people who very much want and would use a large variety of skins probably amounts to 90% of your customer base.
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Originally posted by ramzey
[BGood bye
mustang in RAF markings
Good bye
P40 in russian, New zeland, raf markings
Good bye
hurricane from BoB
Good bye........................ [/B]
I'm sorry, but whats stopping you from creating the decal right on the wing? or fuselage? or Tail?
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i see hope
if i read that correct markings.bmp file will affect only current skin you use and nothing else ( i hope, need to be tested online)
If yes this should be not big problem and can be corrected by add markings_a.bmp file
But if its affect display of all other skins. Will be problem for sure.
Main problem of skins is duplicate wing and parts of fuselage.
Hurricane from BoB had one wing white one black (bottom). With current bitmap mapping you can crete only half of airplane, secound half is just mirror.
On Mustang front part of fuselage (engine cover) is mirrored (left and right side are same. But from cockpit to tail is used secound part of bitmap (both sides are fully displayed on skin, and only part of secound is used).
Som IJN planes have elevator skin used for top and bottom (white one) To paint green camo on them you need both of them. Top green , bottom gray. If you have only one skin pice used to on them, obvious is green elevator will be on top and bottom. Wich is historical incorrect.
Same "limitation" affect other planes. As i see som are fixed and redone. But mostly skinning is dedicated for one and only one camo/ plane markings.
So, old "skins bugs" from Ah1 are repeat in AH2 (mostly)
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Give a draftsman the finest oils, inks, and canvases, and he will say he needs more to complete the picture. Give an artist a patch of sand and a stick and he will produce the most beautiful picture.
I think anyaway :D
edit : oh thats pretentious as hell, but there is a lot that can be done with the current setup.
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TweetyBird said:
Give a draftsman the finest oils, inks, and canvases, and he will say he needs more to complete the picture. Give an artist a patch of sand and a stick and he will produce the most beautiful picture.
Well, what's got everybody riled up here is that we were expecting all of AH1's skinning problems to be gone in AH2. I mean, HTC had to do everything over from scratch anyway, and this time skinning was to be a real feature useable by everybody in the MA, instead of being restricted to guys making their own maps. And for several years now, those who've been making skins have been begging HTC to remove the limitations that many planes have to being reskinned.
But that didn't happen. Despite all the above, HTC kept things just like they were in AH1, so we still face all the same limitations we've had all along. Sure, so far I've noted a couple of minor improvements at the detail level, but those are very small potatoes compared to the major problems left untouched.
So those of us who've been doing skins for a while are extremely disappointed and bitter about it. You know, hopes dashed, the feeling of opportunity missed, constructive feedback ignored, etc. The skin feature was the 1 new thing I was really looking forward to in AH2. I mean, flight model improvements are great, but those are expected as the product evolves and are things you just take in stride as they happen. Oh well....
but there is a lot that can be done with the current setup.
Sure, you can do a lot of things, but there are severe limitations. Basically, the colors of the stock skin determine what you can do in a new skin, as follows:
MONOCHROME STOCK SKINS: (all silver or all blue)
This includes most late USAAF and USN planes, and the early IJN planes. The upper wing mirrors L/R and there's only 1 stabilizer texture that mirrors L/R and U/L. Due to this, you can only do the following:
- Keep the plane the same basic color and change only the trim and unit markings
- Give the plane solid camo top and bottom (like green/gray), but you also have to paint the entire stabilizer in a trim color
BICHROME STOCK SKINS: (different, solid colors top and bottom)
This includes most early USAAF and USN planes, and the later Japanese planes. The upper surfaces mirror L/R but at least you have separate upper and lower stabilizer textures. This means you can do the following:
- Keep as is, changing only the trim and unit markings
- Convert to monochrome
- Add multi-colored camo, but the pattern will be the same on both wings, which is hardly ever realistic
CAMO STOCK SKINS: (multiple colors with different patterns on the upper surface)
This includes all the Brit and German planes, plus a few others like the Ki61 and P40E (assuming they follow the trend and keep their AH1 paintjobs). Here the only mirroring is the lower surface, so you can do anything EXCEPT have something assymetrical on the bottom. IOW, no Brit black/white schemes, no U.S. ARMY, etc.
But these broad limitations aren't the only problems. Many planes have parts that you can't touch at all, but which will always be the color from the stock skin. Many others have decals for unit markings or whatever that are difficult to deal with. Sometimes you can work around these, sometimes you can't, so that some planes that are otherwise perfectly skinnable are ruined by these effects. Examples are the spinners on FWs and 109s and (from AH1), the nose spikes of the 109G6, the cheek guns on the B17, and the anti-glare strip on the P47D30. There are others and you'll be very frustrated when you encounter one of them after putting several hours into a project.
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It's sad how many people complain that they don't have more parts to skin even though you have been given plenty of valid reasons why this is the case.
If you get your way then it adds a LOT more work for the developers, so you will complain about the game being late. And it will make the game slower for certain people, so again, you will complain...
Get over it and apreciate the work the company is putting into the game.
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nm