Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on January 25, 2004, 01:18:05 AM
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Over the course of 2+ years, I haven't flown the P-38 very often. When I do, I have no problem maintaining a reasonable K/D in it despite the fact that I was using it as a Jabo (27/4 over the past three tours).
This tour I wanted to explore its performance under controlled circumstances. So, I have been spending time in the DA and TA (mostly in the DA) learning every facet that I can discover. So, over the course of this tour, I spent about 50% of my online time in the DA and TA learning this complex and difficult fighter.
Much of what I learned surprised me.
I have flown guns on and off dogfights against most of the main rides in the MA, including the Spit IX, La-7, Yak-9U, P-51D and N1K2. I spent at least 10 minutes chasing S2F's Wildcat around as well. Most of the pilots I played tag with were of average or slightly better than average skills. Since this was what we generally encounter in the MA, I wasn't put off by it.
In the case of the F4F-4, it's lack of power means that the vertical regime is difficult to fight in. Once I got behind the Wildcat, there was nothing it could do to shake the big Lightning. S2F tried every possible maneuver, but the P-38 remained on his tail. Thanks to awesome rudder authority, low speed rolling was no problem. I trimmed the plane for full flaps, requiring a touch of forward pressure when speeds exceeded 200 mph (the flaps blow up, so the pressure eases on its own). It took some experimentation to find the best trim settings, but once I had them pegged, the P-38 responded better than I could have hoped for.
As for the speed demons of the plane set, any attempt at a maneuver fight against the Lightning quickly degrades into a bug-out by the hotrod. Either run or get clobbered. Two La-7s augered from high-speed dives trying to get away, only to find that damned P-38 right on their tails. With combat trim off, the speed boards work as advertised.
A couple of Co-E, Co-alt brawls with Yak-9Us revealed to me that guys flying these things figure they can out-turn the Lightning... They figured wrong. After a couple of hard turns, their airspeed was below 250 mph - a place you don't want to be with a P-38 close by. Down come the flaps (that's a nice feature of a HOTAS set up, flap buttons on the stick), and the fight goes close and personal. It wasn't long before the Yak's poor low-speed handling became a major liability. In each case, they then tried to go vertical. Another mistake.
Fights with the dreaded Spit IX were a revelation for both me and the Spit driver. Its only real advantage is in a sustained turn, essentially a Lufberry. Yet, even that advantage is fleeting if you use the Lightning's powerful rudders and torque-free characteristics properly to get in a shot. Should the fight continue for a long time, the Spit's chances improve somewhat. However, in each case, the fights didn't last long enough.
Fights with the N1K2 were very much like those with the Spits. One guy tried a scissors to shake me. Again, the awesome rudder authority allows for a flat skidding turn and the Niki was an easy target. Another niki jock was stunned to watch the big Lightning follow him through a series of low-speed loops. If he had ever seen Leviathn's P-38 film, he would have realized that the P-38 can loop endlessly.
Fights with 109s proved interesting. None of the post 109E type can hang with the P-38 at low speeds. The best turner being the 109F, which simply can't maintain enough speed to fight effectively enough in the vertical plane. The G models were good to excellent in the vertical, but not quite good enough, and turnfighting with a P-38 is death. Indeed, they really need to stay fast. Every 109 driver encountered wanted to fight in vertical. Again, at Co-E. Co-alt that's a problem for them. I would argue that the P-38 is the best vertical fighter in the game. Some guy, frustrated at having his Typhoon abused, grabbed a Spit XIV, only to discover that its vicious torque was a real handicap. I also flew against other P-38s. Quite honestly tho, not one of these guys had a clue how use the Lightning. With one fellow, we played a fun game. Each spawns their fighter on opposite end of the runway, we taxi mid way down the runway until nose to nose. On the count of 3, throttles are firewalled. Once airborne, the fight is on. He tried Spits, 109s, the 202, La-7 and even the Tempest. The result was the same. My P-38 was on him before he could get up and reverse. Eventually, he switched to a Zero. He never did understand how the big P-38 could get airborne, climb 200 feet and reverse before he could get his Zeke up and reverse. Each try netted the same result.... Bullets slamming into his cockpit. He even tried full flaps on takeoff. No improvement. It's all about power loading and torque free low-speed handling. Nothing in this game can match the P-38 in that regard. Sure, the Zeke can turn tighter circles, its problem is that it turns very tight, but very SLOW turns as it hasn't the power to accelerate to speed quickly. The P-38 has the advantage of not only getting airborne quickly with full flaps, it can immediately pull into a high yo-yo. The Zeke can pull into a high yo-yo as well, it just takes several seconds longer to get around. Going to just 25% fuel helps a bit, but it still can't quite get around before it gets slammed. At least this guy wasn't able to do so. It's a interesting and revealing exercise.
On the down side, the P-38 is a large, easy to hit target. Visibility is generally lousy, requiring constant rolling and skidding to check below and behind.
Anyway, I've come away from this "training", if you will, with a new found appreciation for the P-38 as a dogfighter. I'll be flying it more in the MA as the current tour winds down. I'd also like to coax a few of the better sticks into the DA to provide a genuine challenge as one can only measure one's progress by the level of the opposition. I'd really like to play some tag with the better P-38 jocks. If nothing else, I'll learn faster.
My regards,
Widewing
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Welcome to the world of the P-38 Widewing :D
it really is a great plane
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McGuire was killed because of a mistake in SA... pure and simple, do not blame it on his aircraft
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i find lightnings very easy to kill and kill with.
easy to hit easy to hit with
blah blah
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Here's another stunt the P-38 can do, that only the Zeros and N1K2 can mimic.
From a standing start (not using auto-takeoff), apply max power. Hold the P-38 on the runway until about 160 mph IAS, then pop it off, maintaining back pressure, pulling into a loop (leave the gear down if you wish). Add flaps until over the top, where you ease off power and pull out with plenty of ground clearance. If you try this with the Zeros or N1K2, work the throttle or you will impact the ground. Forget doing it with any Spitfire... They make big holes. I have film should anyone be interested.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by storch
What killed Tommy McGuire, the #2 P38 ace of WWII? Turning in a low, slow, P-38. The allied aircraft are somewhat over modelled in this game. Thanks for your post. Interesting insights.
LOL go read up again will ya storch.
McGuire was still carrying both of his drop tanks and was heavy on fuel when they encountered the e/a. In essence his overpowering drive to pass Bong killed him, in trying to save his fuel to extend his flight, figureing the 4 38s could deal with the one e/a, leading him to order his flight not to drop tanks.
He tried to turn his 38 with those tanks on, was too low, stalled and mushed it into the trees below.
That says little about the AH 38 to me. I don't see many 38 drivers in the game flying at full fuel and two tanks, entering a turnfight with anyone.
Dan/Slack
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bah...it seems all the really good planes are being revealed for what they really are...soon enough someone will come up with some reason or another why the ki61 is a uber dweeb plane
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Originally posted by Guppy35
LOL go read up again will ya storch.
McGuire was still carrying both of his drop tanks and was heavy on fuel when they encountered the e/a. In essence his overpowering drive to pass Bong killed him, in trying to save his fuel to extend his flight, figureing the 4 38s could deal with the one e/a, leading him to order his flight not to drop tanks.
He tried to turn his 38 with those tanks on, was too low, stalled and mushed it into the trees below.
That says little about the AH 38 to me. I don't see many 38 drivers in the game flying at full fuel and two tanks, entering a turnfight with anyone.
Dan/Slack
Guppy I suggest you follow your own advice and read up yourself.... Read the below excerpt from the after action report submitted by Capt. Edwin Weaver and Lt. Douglas Thropp, the only survivors of the flight of four P-38's. FYI, Major Jack Rittmayer was also killed in this fight.
McGuire's response was immediate as he turned sharply to the left, but something went wrong as his Lightning shuddered and threatened to stall. He sharply increased his turn in an attempt to get a shot at the enemy fighter, but his plane lost momentum and snap-rolled to the left. It was last seen in an inverted position with the nose down about 30-degrees.
That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present. Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover. His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.
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Ah, posts like these give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I love my P-38.
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It's definitely the most enjoyable and flexible plane to fly in the game. The fact that prudent use of flaps and trim are required to take advantage of its full potential just add to the fun.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Guppy I suggest you follow your own advice and read up yourself.... Read the below excerpt from the after action report submitted by Capt. Edwin Weaver and Lt. Douglas Thropp, the only survivors of the flight of four P-38's. FYI, Major Jack Rittmayer was also killed in this fight.
That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present. Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover. His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.
LOL hiya Bodhi! (used to fly with ya in AW as Tiffi way back when :)
Yeah I've got Stanaway's book on the 475th with all the accounts of McGuire's last flight as well as just about every other 38 book I could find. My mistake with the use of the term "mushing in". My point is the same. McGuire lost it trying to turn a fuel heavy 38 with two drop tanks, got too slow, lost it, and went into the trees.
To use that to compare to an AH 38 is kinda silly don't ya think?
Dan/Slack
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I wonder how the .38 fares against the Spit V then. Anyway, Spit IX is my favourite 38 killer as well as 109F.
Oh, this:
"From a standing start (not using auto-takeoff), apply max power. Hold the P-38 on the runway until about 160 mph IAS, then pop it off, maintaining back pressure, pulling into a loop (leave the gear down if you wish). Add flaps until over the top, where you ease off power and pull out with plenty of ground clearance. If you try this with the Zeros or N1K2, work the throttle or you will impact the ground. Forget doing it with any Spitfire... They make big holes. I have film should anyone be interested"
Gonna try it. I have actually seen a real Spit IX do this, well, actually taking off straight into a loop,but rolling out at the top. Amazing sight which I have not seen any other WW2 warbird do yet.
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I like dogfighting spits, both V and IX. The IX is a little faster, but doesn't turn quite as well. The V, on the other hand, is just the opposite. Makes for a fun fight, it's still tough for me to identify the model until after I've engaged.
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Widewing the 38 is a nice ride however ....
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P38 is all about flaps... You bring them in at the right time.. You accel out of a turn like mad. It turns just as well as any other plane. Like Fester said... Easy to kill, easy to kill with, if you have any idea what your doing.
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38 is one of those planes. Someone hands you your bellybutton when they are in it so you take it up and cant do dick in the thing. Some guys just really know how to get the best out of it. Same as in the war I guess.
80% of my deaths in the 38 are due to compression.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Guppy I suggest you follow your own advice and read up yourself.... Read the below excerpt from the after action report submitted by Capt. Edwin Weaver and Lt. Douglas Thropp, the only survivors of the flight of four P-38's. FYI, Major Jack Rittmayer was also killed in this fight.
That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present. Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover. His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.
Actually there is strong evidence that he was killed by a "trailer"...a japanese pilot reported making a pass on a 38 in this fight and pulling back up into the low cloud cover....he was never seen or reported in original after action reports. don't remember where I read this but report was considered accurate...obviously what actual damage he inflicted...and on what plane is not 100% certain...but he was a recognized ace and reported multiple strikes on the pass.
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Originally posted by humble
Actually there is strong evidence that he was killed by a "trailer"...a japanese pilot reported making a pass on a 38 in this fight and pulling back up into the low cloud cover....he was never seen or reported in original after action reports. don't remember where I read this but report was considered accurate...obviously what actual damage he inflicted...and on what plane is not 100% certain...but he was a recognized ace and reported multiple strikes on the pass.
Where did you see that info Humble? I've never come across that story.
From the stuff I have there were two Japanese planes, a Ki-43 Oscar flown by WO Akira Sugimoto and Sgt Mizunori Fukuda in a Ki-84. Sugimoto in the Oscar was the one who got into it with the 4 38s with Fukuda coming to his aid, and in the process, seeing McGuire crash and then shooting down Rittmeyer. Fukuda in turn was shot up by Weaver and hit 23 times, but was able to flee the scene.
Sugimoto in the Oscar was also badly shot up but managed a forced landing only to be killed by Filipino guerilla's as he exited his plane.
I would assume that the report you saw refers to Fukuda in his Ki-84 as he shot down Rittmeyer and survived to tell the tale. But if there was a third Japanese plane, I'd never heard that before. If you can remember where you saw it, I'd love to know where
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I would assume that the report you saw refers to Fukuda in his Ki-84 as he shot down Rittmeyer and survived to tell the tale. But if there was a third Japanese plane, I'd never heard that before. If you can remember where you saw it, I'd love to know where
McGuire's wreckage was examined and no damage was found relating to gunfire.
Japanese combat claims, or action reports for that matter could generally be stored in the fiction section of most libraries. I have seen after action reports where the reported number of destroyed and damaged American aircraft was over-claimed by nearly an order of magnitude (6 destroyed, 3 damaged, where the claim was 52 destroyed and "many" damaged).
As it is, if no one saw this guy it was certainly because he wasn't there.....
My regards,
Widewing
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bah, the 38 stinks. ;)
~S~
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Excellent post Widewing. Really enjoyed it. I have tried the manual trim option but find it to much of a high workload in a fight. I was wondering, do you manually trim while fighting or not?
Also, I suspect that only elevator and aileron trim would be important. Am I correct in this assumption?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
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i personally never use manual trim, i leave combat trim on all the time. i only use the flaps. it has worked for me, i guess. ive tried the manual trim but it only causes problems for me, probably because ive used combat trim so long.
~S~
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i use trim for geting my butt of a dive when the controls have froze
but using them in combat has allways been hard for me
i find that the extra turn you get from using it bleeds speed and you hurt your speed very fast using trim for turning
the only plane im using trim alot for dogfights is the 109E-4
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Perk the 38! Perk the 38! Perk the 38!
Oops, wrong thread.
Interesting report, Widewing. Insights like yours help many of us better appreciate more rides and tactics. Thanks.
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Manual trim is really not a lot of work in the 38.
Given the torqueless property of the 38, aileron and rudder trim never need to be touched except when damaged. Only elevator trim is important.
Simshell, if you're using it to attain better a turning radius you're using it wrong. Flaps help you there, not trim. If you were to yank the stick back so far that trim would help, you'd be stalling anyway.
Manual trim helps primarily in vertical manouevers. Combat trim has the unwanted property of trimming your elevators up when you lose speed in a climb, which forces you to fight with your stick to maintain the line you want to take, and it makes accurate gunnery in this situation difficult. Manual trim allows you to keep the tabs fixed in the position you want, so you can maintain very smooth control at low speed in the vertical.
Try it. Hammerheads, wing-overs, zoom climbing in general is much better with combat trim off.
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Wanna know something really cool, I know where McGuire's 38's wreckage is....
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Widewing,
Great post on the 38. Unfortunately it flies NOTHING like the P38J model from Air Warrior (ahh the glory days of relaxed realism...LOL). I have been trying the P38L from AH over the past week or so. Great Jabo machine. Still learning the ins and outs of it...maybe you and I could go to DA and I could learn a few things about it.
The main reason I went to the 38 is Fester handed me my arse in a sling a couple of weeks ago and it pissed me off SOOOOO much I decided to learn how to dogfite in it.
Anyone willing to show me the ropes in the P38 ill be sure to bring the beer!!!!!:D
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Tried that off-runway-loopie-thingie in a Spitfire Mk IX. Made it in first try, but with only 10 feet of ground clearance though:eek:
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Wanna know something really cool, I know where McGuire's 38's wreckage is....
Where is it? Is it still in the jungle, or did somebody bring it out?
Charon
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Originally posted by Angus
Tried that off-runway-loopie-thingie in a Spitfire Mk IX. Made it in first try, but with only 10 feet of ground clearance though:eek:
Did you leave the landing down? The P-38 does it without retracting the gear, and it clears the ground by a much greater margin. I found that the Spitfire would dip a wing at the top of the loop, pushing it out of plane. With the P-38, you can do one after another, after another until you grow bored.
I watched some guy doing it in the TA the other day, except he didn't pull into the loop directly from lift-off... He would fly a bit longer, building more airspeed, before he pulled up into the loop.
Try it in the B5N Kate. That thing, although gutless, is the best aerobatic plane in the game.
One thing that really helps the P-38 in the DA is the use of the F3 view. Those big blind spots no longer exist. Furthermore, if you really want to go for maximum dweebness, it takes only a little practice to get proficient at shooting from the F3 view. Of course, this is available to everyone and every plane flying in the DA (a useful tool for self evaluation). Nonetheless, the P-38 benefits from it more than most.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing,
You gonna be up tomorrow in the AM at all? If so would you care to show me some pointers in it?
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Originally posted by guttboy
Widewing,
Great post on the 38. Unfortunately it flies NOTHING like the P38J model from Air Warrior (ahh the glory days of relaxed realism...LOL). I have been trying the P38L from AH over the past week or so. Great Jabo machine. Still learning the ins and outs of it...maybe you and I could go to DA and I could learn a few things about it.
The main reason I went to the 38 is Fester handed me my arse in a sling a couple of weeks ago and it pissed me off SOOOOO much I decided to learn how to dogfite in it.
Anyone willing to show me the ropes in the P38 ill be sure to bring the beer!!!!!:D
Some things that will help.
1. Turn stall limiter off. (I know nobody uses it, so they say)
This off and you will see major plane performace gains in ALL aircraft.
2. Manually trim P38 (No combat trim)
You can pull out of 500 MPH near vertical dives easily manually trimming.
3, FLAPS, FLAPS, FLAPS. Flaps and throttle control are the key to the P38.
4. If you encounter alone P38 somewhere 1st thing you do is turn on your Film Recorder, It is ethier Fester, AKAK, or 38Maw. After they thrash you (me) good watch it and learn.
Also AckAck has some good P38 films floating around here some where do a search and watch them.
Remeber that the P38 loves the vertical but is very good near stall also.
Iam no where near as good as the above mentioned sticks but I do alright in the P38.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Here's another stunt the P-38 can do, that only the Zeros and N1K2 can mimic.
From a standing start (not using auto-takeoff), apply max power. Hold the P-38 on the runway until about 160 mph IAS, then pop it off, maintaining back pressure, pulling into a loop (leave the gear down if you wish). Add flaps until over the top, where you ease off power and pull out with plenty of ground clearance. If you try this with the Zeros or N1K2, work the throttle or you will impact the ground. Forget doing it with any Spitfire... They make big holes. I have film should anyone be interested.
I did this easily with the Spitfires. Even the heavy Mk XIV didn't pancake. No flaps.
The P-38 I had trouble with at 160, but a 175 it worked if I used flaps. Without flaps the P-38 made a big hole.
I did it in the Bf109F-4 and Fw190A-5 easily too.
The Mosquito can do it if you get up to ~200mph before pulling off the runway, slower and it can't complete the loop.
This ability doesn't seem too remarkable actually.
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THanks sixxgunn......I do fly with the stall limiter off in the acft. As for manual trim I dont usually use it unless I really need to. Might have to experiment with that.
REQUEST.....any of you 38 jockeys out there if you are up tomorrow during the AM and would like to help out with my learning curve I would really appreciate it.
Regards:D
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I took the gear up, throttled a little back when I went over the top, then full gas later, no flaps (forgot them).
Anyway TY for the information, gonna try the P38 more as a result. Guess I've always been using in in the wrong way.
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Cut throttle into turn.. pump it on the way out. :D
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Originally posted by storch
What killed Tommy McGuire, the #2 P38 ace of WWII? Turning in a low, slow, P-38. The allied aircraft are somewhat over modelled in this game. Thanks for your post. Interesting insights.
I cant agree more with the fact that the P-38 didnt kill him, his over agressive nature did. Very rarely (before the jet age) does a pilot get killed becuse his own plane. (unless your in a POS) Tacitcs and a bunch of ability are what saves the day.. Not a super ride. It helps, but the plane dosent get you a 6'oclock, the pilot does...
Skip
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Here's a write-up I found about McGuire.
Two things I found interesting.
1. After Bong got the record, McGuire was grounded till after Bong's Heroes Welcome and McGuire was out on an unathorized mission the day he died.
2. He was flying someone elses P38. (Yes a P38 is a P38, but different planes have unigue characteristics)
Here's the CUT AND PASTE.
_____________________________ _______________________
Enlisted as an Aviation Cadet at MacDill Field, Florida, July 12, 1941. Training at Randolph Field and Kelly Field, Texas. Commissioned 2/Lt. and received Wings in February 1942. Assigned Alaska Air Command. Arrived to the SWPA in Australia assigned to the 49th FG in March 1943 but saw no combat. Transferred to the newly formed 475th FG.
The 475th entered combat in August 1943 and McGuire quickly became an "Ace", destroying 5 Japanese E/A in two missions on August 18 and 21, 1943. Promoted to 1/Lt. in September 1943.
While flying 431st FS C.O. Frank Nichol's P-38, Lt. McGuire shot down three "Zekes", was himself shot down, WIA and had to be rescued from the sea by an American PT boat on October 17, 1943. McGuire was hospitalised until December 26, 1943 when, back in combat, he was credited with destroying 3.5 "Vals". Promoted to Captain, December 1943. McGuire was promoted to Major and C.O. of the 431st FS/475th FG on May 2, 1944.
Maj. McGuire's consistent position as "#2" in the unofficial "Ace Race" stood with a tally of 31 confirmed victories when "#1" Dick Bong was relieved from combat in December 1944. McGuire shot down 3 E/A on Christmas Day 1944 and added 4 more E/A the next day, December 26, to bring his score to 38 victories - This feat, which in part, helped earn McGuire the Medal of Honor also prompted Gen. George C. Kenney to "ground" McGuire at least until top ace Maj. Bong received his "heroes' welcome" returning back to the USA.
On January 7, 1945, McGuire flying Fred Champlin's P-38 #112, was back leading an unauthorized flight over the Negros Islands, Phillipines when they attacked a lone IJAAF Ki. 43 "Oscar" piloted by Warrant Officer Akira Sugimoto of the 71st Sentai. McGuire gave an order to "Save droptanks..." The fiesty Sugimoto amazingly, turned to fight and immediately got strikes on Douglas Thropp's P-38 but was chased off by Frank Rittmayer. Sugimoto turned and again dove on McGuire and Edwin Weaver who stayed in a defensive circle close to the deck. Sugimoto was later chased into the clouds and out of the fight by Thropp. Damaged in the scrap, Sugimoto bellied-in on Negros Island only to be captured and later shot by Filipino guerillas. Coming out of the clouds over Negros, Thropp witnessed an aircraft burning on the ground which he later realized was the P-38 of McGuire. Over 30 years later, it was learned that a second E/A, an IJAAF Ki.84 "Frank", piloted by Master Sgt. Mizunori Fukuda, had entered the fight and immediately shot down Maj. Rittmayer. McGuire had then tried to rack his Lightning in a violent turn to help out but only managed to stall his heavily loaded and underspeed P-38 which then dropped into the jungle below and crashed. McGuire was too low to bail-out and was killed instantly. In attempting to engage the E/A, McGuire disregarded some of his own "rules of engagement" which included:
- Never attempt combat at low altitude.
- Never let your airspeed fall below 300 mph.
- Never keep your wing tanks on in a fight.
Fukuda's Ki.84 was also damaged in the scrap and he crash-landed while his returning to his base.
_____________________________ _______________________
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Excellent write up and good post! Enjoyed reading it. Sounds alot like a story I read in a book.
SkipNutz
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Originally posted by Karnak
I did this easily with the Spitfires. Even the heavy Mk XIV didn't pancake. No flaps.
The P-38 I had trouble with at 160, but a 175 it worked if I used flaps. Without flaps the P-38 made a big hole.
I did it in the Bf109F-4 and Fw190A-5 easily too.
The Mosquito can do it if you get up to ~200mph before pulling off the runway, slower and it can't complete the loop.
This ability doesn't seem too remarkable actually.
It's not remarkable the way you're doing it.
Do it exactly like this:
Accelerate until the gear groans..Keep it on the ground.
Then, while still on the runway, pull up into a loop, no extending to build airspeed. no lifting off and flying on the deck, and keep the gear down throughout the maneuver. You must begin the loop at 150-160 mph. You will find this a whole lot harder to do.
My regards,
Widewing
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I did it no problem in a Spit 9.. how much fuel are you loading?
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Widewing,
I wasn't staying low to build speed. I was pulling off at 160mph (well before the gear groan) and pulling back into an immediate loop. I was raising the gear as your description of "leave the gear down if you wish" made the gear sound optional.
Spit IX (easily), Spit XIV (barely), Bf109F-4 (flaps required) and Fw190A-5 (flaps required) all managed it at 160mph. P-38L (easily, flaps required) managed it at 175mph. Mosquito (flaps required) managed it at 200mph.
I loaded 25% fuel in all cases and minimum armaments for the P-38 and Mossie.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I did it no problem in a Spit 9.. how much fuel are you loading?
50%, all types.
My regards,
Widewing
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Just did it fine in a 190a5 with 50% gas.
What alt field were you taking off from? It just doesnt seem that hard, honestly.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Just did it fine in a 190a5 with 50% gas.
What alt field were you taking off from? It just doesnt seem that hard, honestly.
A1 in TA.
My regards,
Widewing
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Great post wildwing...no matter how much I try, I suck in the 38, I pretty much only use it for attack :(
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Just skimming the basics Widewing :)
Now go fly it in the MA exclusively for a month, then come back and tell me what you think about those goddarned flaps autoretracting on you and making you spin.
thats was #1 issue for me cancelling my subscription. every flight, every sortie, I would always end up sciscoring someone (you know, MA you have to face the B&Z and T&Z at the same time coming at you)... and in a good number of those sorties the flaps just pull themselves up the very second they hit the maxspeed, even though it was at that speed for a fraction of a second as one was pulling a high G which bled the speed down to 200mph in less than a second. Flaps retract, plane spins, you lose angles, lose the fight/the angle you had gained.
all thanks to that fairy feature that shouldnt even be in that plane.
BTW, I have my HOTAS (i have 2 hat switches) set up so one of my HAT switches trims the elevator, super easy to trim even during combat. :)
and the dive flaps still do not pull the nose up at around 3g's when deployed past 350mph. gah.
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Originally posted by OIO
and the dive flaps still do not pull the nose up at around 3g's when deployed past 350mph. gah.
What do you mean? I throw out the dive flaps when the needle is pegged at 500, and there's a significan't improvement in the sky-to-ground ratio on my screen.
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Widewing, I like flying the 109's, and P38's. Would love to spend some time in the DA with you. I'll look for you online tonight. By the way, I make a great target, and only wine a little if you HO me.
:)
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mos, in the real 38 the dive flaps had 2 distinct 'effects' depending on the speed at which they were deployed.
if deployed under 300mph and kept deployed under 300mph (say 300mph , deploy flaps and dive to 500mph), the dive flaps would allow the 38 to pull up the nose like we do now in the game. This effect is, id say, well modelled. It prevents the 'tuck under' compression lock.
however, if the 38 had dived and had achieved high speeds (300+) , and the dive flaps were deployed, the effect was very different. It would create a strong 3G nose pull-up effect.
P38 test pilots even commented that if they let go off the wheel the 38 would do a nice loop all by itself after deploying the flaps at high speed.
This effect is not in the game. And sadly, its effect was the best for combat situations, as a 38 could do a zero g dive (90 degree dive), have him and the guy in his tail reach compression speed (even a 190 which has its controls stiffen lots at high speeds), then pull the dive flaps and the 38 would pull out of the dive much much much faster than any plane behind him.
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*** Always has to be beeeeachin about those flaps... :D
:rolleyes:
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bump, i just like seeing the 38 thread:}
~S~
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Originally posted by OIO
Just skimming the basics Widewing :)
Now go fly it in the MA exclusively for a month, then come back and tell me what you think about those goddarned flaps autoretracting on you and making you spin.
thats was #1 issue for me cancelling my subscription. every flight, every sortie, I would always end up sciscoring someone (you know, MA you have to face the B&Z and T&Z at the same time coming at you)... and in a good number of those sorties the flaps just pull themselves up the very second they hit the maxspeed, even though it was at that speed for a fraction of a second as one was pulling a high G which bled the speed down to 200mph in less than a second. Flaps retract, plane spins, you lose angles, lose the fight/the angle you had gained.
all thanks to that fairy feature that shouldnt even be in that plane.
BTW, I have my HOTAS (i have 2 hat switches) set up so one of my HAT switches trims the elevator, super easy to trim even during combat. :)
and the dive flaps still do not pull the nose up at around 3g's when deployed past 350mph. gah.
I've never lost control due to auto flap retraction. Sure, I've had them retract many times, but a touch of top rudder offsets the tendency to drop a wing. Frankly, it's no problem whatsoever. Besides, I like flying the P-38 on the ragged edge, because it is one of the very best knife fighters in the game.
The problem with the P-38 is it is the most difficult fighter to truly master in the plane set. Moreover, you will never master it by flying in the MA only. Why? Because 90% of the fights in the MA are high-speed engagements. To really explore its limits, you need to spend 50 hours or more in the TA/DA fighting against good sticks in their favorite rides.
I had several fun fights with a skilled Spitfire pilot who maintains a 6-7/1 K/D flying Spits in the MA tour after tour. He had a SpitV with 25% gas, I had the P-38 with the same 25%. We engaged pretty much Co-E and Co-alt. We flew a series of merges and reversals, with the Lightning beating the Spit on the reverse every time. Eventually, the Spit had burned off most of his E and it wasn't difficult to gain an advantage and stay glued to his six regardless of what he did. After a few minutes of this, I pulled off and reefed around into a nice lufberry to the left. I wanted to see if I could beat the SpitV at what it does best, sustained turning. I flew a wide circle allowing the Spit to get within 90 degrees of me from behind. Then, I pulled it in tight and around we went. After 1 turn, we were 180 degrees apart and he dumped his flaps in an effort to tighten his radius. Near the end of the third complete turn, I had enough lead to put a long burst into his cockpit. Since we were in the TA, no damage is sustained, so the fight goes on. The Spit reverses out of the lufberry and I kick some rudder, reverse the ailerons and stay to the inside, drilling him again. He then pulled too hard, stalled and impacted the water. Afterwards, we talked about the duel. He said he was pushing the Spit as hard as it would go, circling at 80 mph, the stall warning howling the whole time and the Spit a hair's breath from snapping into a spin. Meanwhile, the P-38 was rock steady, barely twitching and responding to rudder very well.
We had similar results a bit earlier when he took up a Niki, except the Niki was considerably easier to abuse. Another MA regular (Nun) observed the engagements and was equally surprised at the capabilities of the P-38 when in the UFO mode. I was as surprised as anyone... I only regret not filming it...
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I only regret not filming it...
Bah! I was a quarter of the way through the post and I thought to myself, "I wonder if he's still got the film, I'd like to see that."
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Been flying in h2h for a month or so now, Im learning more about it then I knew when flying in MA. Flying around low in a furball sure does teach you a lot. I'd say Im on a 50% increase in SA/ACM since flying in the MA last. Especially considering I fly 38 95% of the time Im online, which is quite a bit.
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Originally posted by mos
Bah! I was a quarter of the way through the post and I thought to myself, "I wonder if he's still got the film, I'd like to see that."
I'll make sure to film the next one. From time to time I find I'll disco when attempting to turn on the film during flight. So, if I forget to turn it on while in tower, I don't try to.
For me, the discovery that the P-38 can stallfight successfully with Spits, Nikis and Wildcats was a revelation. Instead of being wary of the lone Spitfire spotted Co-alt, I now relish the opportunity to draw him into a low-speed turning fight, where he figures he holds the cards. The same goes for Yaks too. Ghosth and I flew a series of duels where he flew the Yak-9U and I the P-38L. I took 50% fuel, he had 25%. At low speeds, it's no contest at all; the P-38 is much better. At high speeds it's very even until the P-38 runs out of WEP. From that point the Yak has a slight advantage until the speeds bleed down. However, that edge is enough that Ghosth got guns on me 3 times, I got mine on his Yak two times. Ghosth would then have to extend away or end up in a turning contest where the Yak is outclassed. As it was, When we agreed to try some high-speed duels, I was climbing and he had extended just beyond icon range. I leveled off and he reversed for the merge. He had a down hill run and carried at least 400 mph into the merge, I had barely 300. So, there was an energy deficit from the outset, plus my engines were already very hot and I only had about 60 seconds of WEP remaining. But, that's what you can expect in the MA anyway and you had better learn to deal with the disparity in E. Should the shoe be on the other foot, the P-38 would have the advantage and the Yak driver must work to equalize the E states. Ghosth is a very good stick and the Yak is his favorite ride. Beating him at his own game is very tough, and he will make every effort to avoid fighting against the P-38's strengths, which means being very careful in the vertical regime, and avoiding turning contests. All in all, it was great fun.
For the player who wants to become proficient with the P-38, I suggest (and Lazer surely agrees) that they spend as much time in the TA/DA (or even HTH rooms) as possible.
My regards,
Widewing
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or, as i did, just take your beatings in MA and learn as you go. of course, that is probably a longer more painful process.
~S~
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Originally posted by storch
What killed Tommy McGuire, the #2 P38 ace of WWII? Turning in a low, slow, P-38. The allied aircraft are somewhat over modelled in this game. Thanks for your post. Interesting insights.
Pilot error killed him, not the plane.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Bodhi
That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present. Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover. His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.
Maybe Widewing has a copy of the report or hopefully Savage is lurking about and will post a copy of the report of a recent investigation to the cause of McGuire's crash.
The report alludes to pilot error as the cause. In the P-38, if you throttle back on one engine and then want to advance it, you have to cut back on the other throttle and then advance both throttle together. If you don't, the plane had a tendency to enter into a violent snap spin and at low alts like McGuire was, the result is usually fatal as there is no time to safely recover. The reports points to this as being the most likely cause of Mcguire's crash. Together with the facts that McGuire was flying an unfamiliar P-38 and not his usual ride and he violated one if his dictas by keeping the drop tanks and was in a race to be the #1 ace, it was almost like Destiny's recipe for disaster.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by OIO
P38 test pilots even commented that if they let go off the wheel the 38 would do a nice loop all by itself after deploying the flaps at high speed.
Dive flaps were not put on the p38 until late J models, because of compression problems p38 pilots had against 109's in a dive. 109 pilots figured this out and would go in a short dive and pull up to gain a little more time against the p38.
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Originally posted by Joker312
Excellent post Widewing. Really enjoyed it. I have tried the manual trim option but find it to much of a high workload in a fight. I was wondering, do you manually trim while fighting or not?
Also, I suspect that only elevator and aileron trim would be important. Am I correct in this assumption?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
The only trim you need to adjust is the elevator trim. Since the P-38 has no torque, there isn't any adjustments needed for the aileron or rudder trim.
Personally, I try to keep my elevator trim in neutral as much as possible.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by guttboy
Widewing,
Great post on the 38. Unfortunately it flies NOTHING like the P38J model from Air Warrior
That's because it's a different model and a different game. But if you really want to know, the P-38L in AH is far easier to fly than the P-38J we had in AW. The only thing the P-38J in AW has over the P-38L in AH was the lack of auto-retracting flaps. Other than that, whatever you were able to do in the P-38J in AW, you can do and more with the P-38L in AH.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by OIO
Just skimming the basics Widewing :)
Now go fly it in the MA exclusively for a month, then come back and tell me what you think about those goddarned flaps autoretracting on you and making you spin.
thats was #1 issue for me cancelling my subscription. every flight, every sortie, I would always end up sciscoring someone (you know, MA you have to face the B&Z and T&Z at the same time coming at you)... and in a good number of those sorties the flaps just pull themselves up the very second they hit the maxspeed, even though it was at that speed for a fraction of a second as one was pulling a high G which bled the speed down to 200mph in less than a second. Flaps retract, plane spins, you lose angles, lose the fight/the angle you had gained.
all thanks to that fairy feature that shouldnt even be in that plane.
And from HiTech's reply to one of my anti-autoretracting flaps posts, I don't think he's inclined to get rid of this hand-holding feature.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Widewing
For me, the discovery that the P-38 can stallfight successfully with Spits, Nikis and Wildcats was a revelation.
You can add the Hurricane to that list as well. The stall fighting ability of the P-38 is one of the things I've always boasted about when talking about the P-38. With it's fantastic low speed handling and no torque, it's amazing a plane with its rather large profile can be so agile.
ack-ack
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You meet a decent hurri/spit/n1k pilot coalt and don't boom and zoom it, there is a decent chance you WILL DIE, unless you use the stall fight tactics... which are fun :D
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You've gotta be kidding me. Widewing, I want to get with you in the DA and fight P-38 vs Spit/N1k. I'd have to see this to believe it.
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Originally posted by Urchin
You've gotta be kidding me. Widewing, I want to get with you in the DA and fight P-38 vs Spit/N1k. I'd have to see this to believe it.
Film both sides please. Win or lose, I always want to learn more about how to fly the Lightning.
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When flying the P38 (which is almost always) my biggest fear is other P38's.
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Usually don't have to worry about other 38's, they are mostly dweebs with no experience in it. There aren't more than a handful of guys in AH that can really fly it.
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And I would like to see this film also, Urchin in spit/n1k would be sorta brutal.. ;)
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Well, it has been my experience that a P-38 is dogmeat against a spit/nik flown with any kind of skill. If Widewing has managed to kill a good pilot in that kind of fight then I can learn from him.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, it has been my experience that a P-38 is dogmeat against a spit/nik flown with any kind of skill. If Widewing has managed to kill a good pilot in that kind of fight then I can learn from him.
I'm always game for a scrap. If we run into each other in the MA or DA, we'll go have some fun. The P-38 is great fun for stall fighting, something one rarely gets to do in the MA without some guy jumping in to take advantage of low, slow targets. A few of us were furballing low in the DA the other day, and one tardling after another would dive in guns blazing.... We finally took it to the TA where you can ignore them.
See ya up there.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You can add the Hurricane to that list as well. The stall fighting ability of the P-38 is one of the things I've always boasted about when talking about the P-38. With it's fantastic low speed handling and no torque, it's amazing a plane with its rather large profile can be so agile.
ack-ack
Yea but you cant outturn some NOOB in an La7. ;)
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I hope ya'll pick a date and time, then post it here. I will be there to see this !
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Me also
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Originally posted by Sway
Me also
Whoops, too late... Urchin and I spent an hour in the DA tonight, flying all kinds of fighters, even dive bombers. Great fun. He has a very clever move on the merge that took me a several sorties and a lot of trashed airplanes to figure out and counter.
We did a Spit9 and P-38 matchup. Yeah, the P-38 CAN turn with the Spit.. But Urchin always found a way to get the advantage. Hell, he beat me with his merge move when we both flew 38s. LOLOL
Clearly, the guy I fought in the SpitV and Niki was not anywhere near to Urchin's ability. But then again, very few players are up to Urchin's ability.
Anyway, it was a fun time and I surprised him by flying the B5n, which, of course, has no forward firing guns. I flew too close to his 6 with it and ran into him. :D
After about an hour Urchin had to go, but I had the most fun I've had a a long time.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm slowly learning the 38 in here. I used the 38 mainly in AW with lots of success. In here it feels completely different. Better I think.
I've had some great fights, and some not so great fights. So if anyone has some helpful tips and/or films they wanna share..I'm all ears!
I do have one question though...I have heard a few times that you have to work the throttle on the 38 to get her to turn. I do a "little" but not much. When are you guys cutting throttle? At the top of a loop or what? Most of the time my throttle is to the firewall.
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I don't think I'd ever cut throttle near stall speed, but the 38 is capable of shedding speed very quickly by chopping throttle and applying rudder, so it can be a good thing to do to reduce your turning radius and get inside someone if you're coming in a little fast.
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I usually let off throttle before turn and then pump it half way through, and I get accused of hacking FM. I get 38 to turn pretty tight, just doing throttle control.
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I pretty much do the same thing as Lazer does, sometimes I'll jockey it a little more to get the lead on the bogie in the turn if it's necessary.
There also times that I'll cut my throttle completely in a turn to stall out but that's only in stall fights and not regular angles fighting.
ack-ack
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exactly...
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Originally posted by Guppy35
"LOL go read up again will ya storch.
McGuire was still carrying both of his drop tanks and was heavy on fuel when they encountered the e/a. In essence his overpowering drive to pass Bong killed him, in trying to save his fuel to extend his flight, figureing the 4 38s could deal with the one e/a, leading him to order his flight not to drop tanks.
He tried to turn his 38 with those tanks on, was too low, stalled and mushed it into the trees below.
That says little about the AH 38 to me. I don't see many 38 drivers in the game flying at full fuel and two tanks, entering a turnfight with anyone.
Dan/Slack"
Dan, I know that this theory has been proposed by a lot of knowledgeable people (including at least one of the American pilots that survived the incident), but I don't think it is consistent with McGuire's discipline and history.
I think it is more likely that McGuire had NOT expected to engage this bandit. There were four p38s and just one Oscar. By this time during the Phillipines camapaign, the Japanese were becoming very intimidated and gun-shy, having come out on the short end of many, many engagements with P38s. All of the planes were flying beneath a layer of grey clouds, and the single observed Oscar was travelling in the opposite direction from McGuire and his companions at high speed. He could easily pop up into the clouds and be gone long before the group of Lightnings could turn around. Hence McGuire ordered his companions to retain their [expensive] drop tanks so that the mission could be completed. In fact, Japanese records indicate that that original Oscar did indeed scoot on home without tangling with the Americans in their powerful formation of four Lightning veterans.
But fate intervened in the form of a SECOND Japanese fighter, flown by an experienced ace who must have dropped out of the clouds in a position that made the Americans think that the first Oscar had somehow managed an astonishing turn back toward them. When that second Japanese fighter started shooting at McGuire's wingman, Tommy raked his big, heavy P38 around and took a snapshot, driving the attacker away temporarily and saving his wingman. But McGuire's borrowed Lightning was too low down to recover from the resulting accelerated stall, and the "Iron Major" rode it all the way into the ground on top of those two heavy drop tanks.
This view of the fight is supported by Japanese records brought to light several years after McGuire's death. Those records were unavailable when the two Americans who survived the fight were debriefed, so they may not have been aware that two separate Japanese planes were in the area.
Ultimately, we can never know what went through McGuire's mind during those brief moments. But this view seems more consistent with the Japanese records and with descriptions of McGuire's amazing abilities and well-documented tendency toward self sacrifice.
Regards,
-Peabody-
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Originally posted by Raptor01
When flying the P38 (which is almost always) my biggest fear is other P38's.
Me too! Amen. When I see a high P38 in the distance, I know I am in probably going to die. With most anything else, I have some way to prevail or escape. But against another P38 that has an altitude advantage.... I don't have any tricks. I'm just forced to engage on the other guy's terms and it isn't pretty!
[and frequently the other P38 is Rapotor01, but I'm generally above him. Hehe]
-Peabody-
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sway would still like to get those lessons bro
widewing great post most enlightening
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Originally posted by bbosen
Me too! Amen. When I see a high P38 in the distance, I know I am in probably going to die. With most anything else, I have some way to prevail or escape. But against another P38 that has an altitude advantage.... I don't have any tricks. I'm just forced to engage on the other guy's terms and it isn't pretty!
[and frequently the other P38 is Rapotor01, but I'm generally above him. Hehe]
-Peabody-
Well, I think like most here, when I see a P-38 I think to myself it will be an easy kill. 99% of the time it is. For the reasons I have mentioned in this thread, most P-38s are little threat. Very few players know how to use the P-38 effectively, and even fewer can extract all it's capable of. Those that can will make you wish you had taken them a lot more seriously.
My favorite ride for brawling with P-38s is the F6F-5. Just my preference though.
This past Sunday, we took the whole squad into the TA to work on their P-38 skills. I took up a Spit V and headed for the crowd. Now, since you can't actually shoot them down, any kills you get are maneuver kills (but you must at least shoot them). I landed 11 kills which means I screwed 11 guys into the ground AFTER I had hit them. I was hit once in the process. We did this several times until the guys realized what they have to do to defeat the Spitfire. At that point, we switched to half flying Spits and half in P-38s. The P-38s won about 50% of the brawls. With that we headed for the DA and started over again. Well, the P-38s began to dominate the Spits to the point that the Spit drivers started upping 262s to get revenge.
Since Sunday, the squadron has tripled their kills in the P-38, and cut their losses by 2/3rds. One young fellow (high school student) named Wrecker landed 3 consecutive sorties of 10 kills or more. His comment was, "I absolutely love this plane now!" Wrecker turned around a 1/2 K/D in the P-38 to a 2/1 K/D in less than a week. I figure that if Wrecker stays here for a year or so, he will develop into one of the better sticks. This is why I urge players to spend some time in the DA and TA, regardless of what you prefer to fly. It will do wonders for your MA experience.
My regards,
Widewing
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Well I don't know how you deal with a Spit. Spits scare me when I'm in a 38 if they have any alt or speed advantage over me if they are flown well. I have out turned a few SpitV's and a few more Spit IX's, but I think that that is mainly luck on my part and an average hand in the spits. So what's this great secret to getting over on the spits? I see lots of the better 38 pilots waxing spits left and right, but I have a hard time with them if I don't have an advantage in speed or alt.
(Still learning)
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Most of them tend to over shoot... go horizontal, as you see them start to fall behind cut throttle and reverse. Doesn't always work, but most of the spit jocks in the MA always have the throttle firewalled.
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It is nice to discuss virtual P-38 but what real P-38 was able to ? Any info about reallife Lightnings turn radius/time ?
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Widewings post is unbelievable! I am P-38 fan and I spent my first 5 camps in Aces High glued to it and my p-38 simply never once EVER approached that kind of turning ability, flaps no flaps slow fazt didnt' matter. In fact MY P-38 always always always breaks into a torque roll in a stall and always at higher airspeeds than the airplane on my 6. I even had a JUG out turn me. Nothing I did worked. In fact the only way I can even stay in the AIR turning a P-38 is to engage the stall limiter, otherwise I blink and I have departed controlled flight.
I spent months trying to figure it out. Then I got with a buddy of mine here in New England. He said his 38 flew great and could not understand why I was having so much trouble. So he came over and flew it on my computer. Guess what it was exactly the dog I was complaining about. He told me, and I have verified this, that the P-38 on his system handles radically different from the P-38 on my system. And it isn't only the 38 that shows this inconsistency.
He took to flying the P-51D. Then we went head to head and there was nothing he could do to get away from MY p-51D(and I SUCK at turnfighting) in the Dueling arena and the Training arena. He started noticing that all the things I complained about in the 38 were happening to him in the mustang. So he came over and flew the stang on my comp. He had no problems. Stang flew much better on my comp than on his.
Apparently some of Aces High's airplanes behave differently on differening computers.
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I'd check your stick settings on that computer... or check to see if the little box marked "Stall limiter" is checked... that is the same thing as checking the little box marked "nueter my plane".
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Great post widewing.
There is one thing that bugged me about the p-38 for two years of play plus through that part of the original beta run I participated in.
Every time I flew the P-38 and tried to turn it I would wind up in the most wicked snap rolls I have ever seen. The plane would depart from controlled flight at the slightest sounding of the stall horn. I was furious. I made post after post on the matter, which I see now are all gone. And no one even offered an answer. All I ever got was, essentially, "Sit down! Shutup! And be thankful you have a sim to play." Many have noted I am very critical of AH, my angst was and remains fueled by these kinds of responses. But that's unimportant. It began to look to me like there was something wrong with the version of the game I had vs what everyone else was playing.
Everytime I read a post on the P38 there would be these absolutely GLOWING reviews of it's agility, for the most part historically accurate too. But MY p-38 was just awful. I couldn't figure it out. I almost quit AH over the matter when suddenly a version appeared with Stall Limiter. WOW I could actually FLY it finally. Stall limter kept me in the game. And occaisionally I could do some cool things with the P-38. But it still seemed like there were two different P-38s in the game. Then I found out that there are!
You see I always flew with a full load of ammunition. 500 rounds of .50 caliber ammo per gun. I thought that was better than peanut butter. Then one day, two years after getting into this silliness I tried the plane with the 200 round per gun option. Oh... My... God.
After a good hour kicking myself for being a fool, then cursing every flinty hearty miser out there who had been laughing at me all that time, I realised that AH has much more detailed weight and balance modeling than I ever thought it had.
Now I am Ex-Army. I know very well thankyou that .50 call amo is very heavy. So I did a little homework and found out that .50 cal ammo weighs .3 pounds per round, linked. At 200 rounds per gun I had removed 1200 rounds of .50 ammo. Thats almost 450 POUNDS, and all that weight is located forward of the pilot.
So for all those folks out there who read these reports of fantastic manuveablity in the 38. Remember there ARE two completely diffrent flying versions. One with 2000 rounds of .50 call ammo in the nose and one with only 800. It makes a difference. But, I still need the stall limiter to keep me in the air in dogfights. I am firmly convinced that some sticks throw more control than others.
What I'd rather have is the ability to scale my stick at 100% of throw. As it stands we cant do that. 90% yes 100% no. But, that's another gripe.
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Firs I'd like to digress to the dive flaps. They do not, never did and never will pull your nose up. That isn't their function. The primary function of the dive flap is to allow the elevator of the 38 to function in a compressed dive. In addition to and secondary to that, the dive flap slows accelration so that over time it takes you longer to get into compression speeds. In normal flight all those things will do is hamper how quickly you accelerate.
Second. Here it is again It's like the two of you are talking about two entirely different planes. Maybe OIO is flying with the 500 rnd/gun MG option instead of the 200. It would make sense.
Originally posted by Widewing
I've never lost control due to auto flap retraction. Sure, I've had them retract many times, but a touch of top rudder offsets the tendency to drop a wing. Frankly, it's no problem whatsoever. Besides, I like flying the P-38 on the ragged edge, because it is one of the very best knife fighters in the game.
The problem with the P-38 is it is the most difficult fighter to truly master in the plane set. Moreover, you will never master it by flying in the MA only. Why? Because 90% of the fights in the MA are high-speed engagements. To really explore its limits, you need to spend 50 hours or more in the TA/DA fighting against good sticks in their favorite rides.
I had several fun fights with a skilled Spitfire pilot who maintains a 6-7/1 K/D flying Spits in the MA tour after tour. He had a SpitV with 25% gas, I had the P-38 with the same 25%. We engaged pretty much Co-E and Co-alt. We flew a series of merges and reversals, with the Lightning beating the Spit on the reverse every time. Eventually, the Spit had burned off most of his E and it wasn't difficult to gain an advantage and stay glued to his six regardless of what he did. After a few minutes of this, I pulled off and reefed around into a nice lufberry to the left. I wanted to see if I could beat the SpitV at what it does best, sustained turning. I flew a wide circle allowing the Spit to get within 90 degrees of me from behind. Then, I pulled it in tight and around we went. After 1 turn, we were 180 degrees apart and he dumped his flaps in an effort to tighten his radius. Near the end of the third complete turn, I had enough lead to put a long burst into his cockpit. Since we were in the TA, no damage is sustained, so the fight goes on. The Spit reverses out of the lufberry and I kick some rudder, reverse the ailerons and stay to the inside, drilling him again. He then pulled too hard, stalled and impacted the water. Afterwards, we talked about the duel. He said he was pushing the Spit as hard as it would go, circling at 80 mph, the stall warning howling the whole time and the Spit a hair's breath from snapping into a spin. Meanwhile, the P-38 was rock steady, barely twitching and responding to rudder very well.
We had similar results a bit earlier when he took up a Niki, except the Niki was considerably easier to abuse. Another MA regular (Nun) observed the engagements and was equally surprised at the capabilities of the P-38 when in the UFO mode. I was as surprised as anyone... I only regret not filming it...
My regards,
Widewing
acceleration acceleration acceleration
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Originally posted by OLtos
What I'd rather have is the ability to scale my stick at 100% of throw. As it stands we cant do that. 90% yes 100% no. But, that's another gripe.
sorry to side track here, but you should have full 100% input if all sliders are at the top alll the way across from 10 to 90
and deadband and dampening are at the bottom, only use deadband /dampening to remove stick spikes and other movements like resting hand on joystick and inadvertently moving it or feet accidently pressing slightly on a rudder pedal
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's because it's a different model and a different game. But if you really want to know, the P-38L in AH is far easier to fly than the P-38J we had in AW. The only thing the P-38J in AW has over the P-38L in AH was the lack of auto-retracting flaps. Other than that, whatever you were able to do in the P-38J in AW, you can do and more with the P-38L in AH.
ack-ack
There was one other thing: The AW P-38 had the amazing "Speed Brake" Dive Flaps. The AHII 38 dive flaps aren't nearly as effective at the speed brake.
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whats this heretic blasphemy about my zeke.. i cry foul......
The guy who couldn't get his zeke around most likely was not adjusting trim before his takeoff run... Trim should be 1/3 to halfway from lowest position on takeoff and by the time you hit 70-80 mph pop flaps and pull a 2-3 g reversal... if he kept his trim full up (defualt takeoff) then the underpowered zeke can barely get out of its own way..
I dont think the p38 can be more nimble as the zeke at those super slo mo speeds.. above 200 mph the p38 will turn with a zeke but much like the super ki, the zeke works best between 150 and 200 near its corner stall speed velocity... (thing rips at about 180mph...)
No discredit to the 38 because the 38 can mix up some B&Z and energy fight the zeke at near untouchability...
DoctorYo
Phear the Zeke...... 38 blasphemy "gizmo kaka"
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3 days ago i was bounced by 1 f4u 1 zero and 1 hellcat.
i finished them all even the zero remarkably couldn't turn with me i saw him wobble than tried to leave the fight.
poor zero
yesterday i did a fight with another f4u we went to the deck also i finished him.
but than i saw that nik tard incoming i shot him before .
He wanted his revenche i was really slow and tried to extend.
but he came closer and closer at the distance of 1.5 i turned on him i imidiatly got on his tail he never expected that after that we did slow turning on the deck.
i was even out of wep but i kept the advantage beeing able to keep a shot him while he couldn't get a shot on me.
I'm a lousy shot but i pinged him many times someone friendly cherry picked him but i still got the kill dough.
Flying since 1.03 P38 only no DA
no sientific sjit just fly the pig.
The G2 with APAR in it is very dangerous dough :)
The P38 is a lovely plane
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Does anyone have a new tactic against the Ki-84?
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Both the zeke and the new Ki have vulnrabilities when they transition from high to medium speed to stall speed ... they suffer the limitations of a 6g's (blackout) before they can get to stall speed where they will out radii about anything at 2-3.5g turn.....
That transition period is where they are most vulrable before they can pop their flaps..
note the zeke is less vulnrable then the KI but it works on both.. The 38 can flap at 250 to the zekes / Ki 150-160 range.. draw your own conclusions...
A experienced zeke/ki pilot will minimize this window by slip(rudder) usage and use of the high yoyo/barrel roll with throttle management to slow them down to their radii attack mode..
DoctorYo
PS in stall fighting you must not only consider turn/corner velocity but radii as well... even when in the 38... in fact in a 1 vs 1 i would go radii all day long at the helm of a 38 due to its docile characteristics..
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Yup, I was suprised why I couldnt shake a P38 on my six in an F4U-1 since I came back.. either the pilots learned how to fly, I forgot how to fly, or both...
even the rolling scissors wasn't helping...very frustrating indeed.