Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: WhiteHawk on January 25, 2004, 07:48:58 AM
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In the canopy? And how do you use it?
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The "stick and ball" are used to make sure you are not rolling or sliding. The "stick" shows roll and the "ball" shows yaw. Use it to manually trim your aircraft in flight and give it a glance before you release your bombs just to make sure you are flying straight.
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Reference the ball.
If the ball is off to the right, your nose is yawed to the left. You are in uncoordinated flight. To get back to coordinated flight and get your nose pointed in the direction your aircraft is moving,
"Step on the Ball." (IE apply rudder).
cheers,
RTR
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"Be the Ball" (Chevy Chase, Caddyshack)
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I find it most helpful when I hang pictures about the cockpit. I'm a stickler for everything being perpendicular..
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Originally posted by Hajo
"Be the Ball" (Chevy Chase, Caddyshack)
LOL! Nnnnnnnnnnnnnn... :lol
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Originally posted by Blooz
The "stick" shows roll and the "ball" shows yaw.
I wouldn't take the instruments in AH too seriously. I have found several flaws. For example, the magnetic compass is calibrated backwards, and therefore has to rotate the wrong way in turns in order to give correct readings as calibrated. (WB makes the same mistake, though IL2 has it correct). The manifold pressure gauge drops to minimum when the engine is stopped. In real life, it would settle on the reading which equated to the ambient atmospheric pressure.
And I have just done a test of the turn indicator in a Spit V. I made this short film (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/film93turn.ahf) (57 secs.) in which I am able to make a 90° right turn by holding full right rudder while banking the aircraft to the left. Throughout this right hand turn, the turn indicator shows a left turn being made. (Disregard the magnetic compass entirely - it doesn't work at all in films)
I suspect the "turn" indicator has actually been set up to indicate angle of bank. However, the turn indicator does not (ie should not) indicate angle of bank. That's the job of the artificial horizon.
The ball seems to work OK.
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Beet your confused. The ball is not a "turn" indicator. It is reading correctly for the manuver you doing. Your skidding the airplane. Regardless of your wings banked to the left your skidding to the right. Banking it to the left makes the rudder a half assed elevator in the up position and will send you that way.
The "stick" which is missing from your example cockpit shows angle of bank. But that isn't a turn indicator either. It's just the angle of bank. It's been a REAL long time, but if my memory serves me you used the "stick" with the ball centered to make a "standard rate turn" IFR. But many cheap beers have been done in that amount of time...
Coordinated flight, as in "stepping on the ball" in your example will bring it back to center.
In coordinated flight the ball will ALWAYS be centered regardless of atitude. Just like setting a glass of water above the instrument panel and doing an aerobatic demonstration. Bob Hoover used to do glass of water aerobatic demo in a Shrike Commander when he was still flying. Centered ball means the water stays in the glass.
It is not a turn indicator.
Cross control "slip" can be used to lose altitude quickly. In your film, if your at idle, hard right rudder and a bank to the left is a way to lose altitude quickly with a minimum of forward progress. I use it quite a bit.
In a Cessna 150 it works great, but you can't get out of hand doing it. Cross control stalls are a handful that close to the ground.
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I have been going through the flight instruction in FS2004. Rod Machado, the instructor, explains the purpose of the stick and ball is to keep your passengers heads from hitting the walls of the cockpit.
In air combat, this is not a great concern. I do notice many of the balls are positioned on or near the sight. It can be used as an aid in shooting. If you center the ball, your shots will not go right or left of your sight.
Gunner
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Nopoop, the ball is working fine. My film is to demonstrate the TURN indicator. And by the way it IS a turn indicator, even though you said (twice) that it wasn't. You do know the difference between turn and slip, I take it? You might also want to learn the difference between yaw, your, and you're. Seems like I'm not the one who's confused. :lol
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/turnind.jpg)
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Jeez Beet, I've never looked at that clock before..
It's got a L and a R on it that's for sure. That might stand for Larry and Ron or Linguisa and Ragu..
After a short flight it appears to be a mechanical stick and ball gauge. One showing angle of bank the other a slip indicator. The bank needle swaps sides in a roll when you pass through 180 degrees as the stick does in the traditional gauge. The top needle is the ball showing slip. Givin flying in 3 dimensions, just how in the world would a gauge know which way your turning ?? What if your upside down turning to the right ??
Your "turn" gauge shows exactly what the stick and ball does. A bank to the left and a slip to right. Requiring left rudder to center the ball.
Though the stick and ball has mistakenly been called a "turn" indicator. It IS under normal coordinated flight circumstances, hence the confusion.
The same explanation applies.
It was no doubt added to the Spit for no other reason than you guys over there are redundant..and the ball thing prolly confused you..
But you called me a dolt and you've hurt my feelings so your off my Christmas list.
..and if you don't appoligise and admit your wrong, you won't get a phone call on your B day either.
Then Toad will come here and whup on ya..
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Nopoop!
- The slip indication is handled by the ball.
- The angle of bank is indicated by the artificial horizon.
- The rate of turn is shown by the turn indicator.
Givin flying in 3 dimensions, just how in the world would a gauge know which way your turning ??
It works by means of a gyroscope. You mentioned the Cessna 150 in your earlier post. In an aircraft like that, the artificial horizon and direction indicator would operate by vacuum powered gyros, whereas the turn indicator normally works off an electrically powered gyro. These instruments are sensitive to deviation in direction relative to space. On many civil types, the turn indicator is a pair of wings very similar to an artificial horizon. This often misleads rookie pilots into believing that the turn indicator indicates the angle of bank. It does not. Put the aircraft into a 25° degree bank, and hold it out of the turn using rudder, and the turn indicator will show neutral. By the same token, if you're on the ground, taxiing from your parking spot to the runway holding point, you'll probably have to make a number of turns as you negotiate various taxiways. At each turn, the turn indicator will swing hard over - even though the aeroplane remains level. Because the instrument indicates the rate of turn, and NOT the angle of bank. But... I've just tried this in AH, and it's FUBAR. Make a 180° turn on the ground, and the instrument remains in the neutral position. Very gamey - should be right up your street. :lol ..and if you don't appoligise and admit your wrong, you won't get a phone call on your B day either.
Oh well, no phone call for me next birthday. Pity. I've got the big one coming up! Then Toad will come here and whup on ya..
Erm... no....
... because he knows I'm right.
...And you're wrong.
And you really ought to check your facts before you say I'm confused.
Better luck next time. :aok :aok :aok
Toodle-Pip
:lol
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cut&paste...
TURN-AND-SLIP INDICATOR
The turn-and-slip indicator (right) provides the only information of either wing's level or bank attitude if the other gyroscopic instruments should fail. This indicator is sometimes called the "needle and ball". This instrument, along with the airspeed indicator, magnetic compass and altimeter, can assist the pilot in flying through instrument weather conditions, even when it is the only gyro instrument operating.
The turn needle of the turn-and-bank indicator gives an indirect indication of the bank attitude of the aircraft. When the turn needle is exactly centered, the aircraft is in straight flight. When the needle is displaced from center, the aircraft is turning in the direction of the displacement. Thus, if the ball is centered, a left displacement of the turn needle means the left wing is low and the aircraft is in a left turn. Return to straight flight is accomplished by coordinating aileron and rudder pressures.
The ball of the turn-and-bank indicator is actually a separate instrument, conveniently located under the turn needle so the two instruments can be used together. This instrument is best used as an indication of attitude. When the ball is centered within its glass tube the maneuver is being executed in a coordinated manner. However, if the ball is out of its center location, the aircraft is either slipping or skidding . The side to which the ball has rolled indicates the direction of the slip or skid.
In a slip, the rate of turn is too slow for the angle of bank, and the lack of centrifugal force causes the ball to be displaced to the inside of the turn. (To correct, decrease the angle of bank, or use rudder to increase the rate of turn, or both). In a skid the rate of turn is too fast for the angle of bank, and excessive centrifugal force causes the ball to be displaced to the outside of the turn. (To correct, increase the bank angle, or use rudder to decrease the rate of turn, or both).
In coordinated flight, the needle may be used to measure the rate of turn; in a "standard rate turn", the needle is aligned with the left or right marker (dog-house) and the aircraft will turn at the rate of 3° per second or 180° in one minute. Hence, in these conditions, the needle indicates both direction and rate of turn.
The answer to controlling and trimming an aircraft in straight and level flight by means of the turn-and-bank indicator requires a return to basic control principles - i.e., control yaw with the rudder and keep the wings level with aileron. Therefore, when flying straight and level through the use of the turn-and-bank indicator, prevent yawing with appropriate rudder pressure, and keep the wings level with appropriate aileron pressure. The needle will not deflect while heading is constantly maintained, since no turn exists.
In other words, control the ball with rudder since the ball moves parallel to a plane passing through the rudder pedals, and control the needle with aileron since the ailerons affect bank angle, a primary requirement for a normal turn.
It is important that both the needle and ball are used together. The problem associated with using these instruments separately is that although the ball will positively indicate that the aircraft is slipping or skidding, just which one of these the aircraft is doing can only be determined by reference to the needle. Furthermore, the needle will not positively indicate a bank attitude. An aircraft could be in a bank attitude and yet the needle could remain centered or indicate a turn in the opposite direction, if controls are not coordinated.
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Virage explained it very well, much better than I. My memory isn't that poor after all. So I guess..
I'm correct after all, but you can still think you are if that's what you need.
Big ONE ?? Fifty ??
Your a youngster.
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You guys are confusin the buhgeezus outta me!!
What the heck do we need these guages for anyway? Just fly that way really fast, if something gets in your way, pull the trigger :D
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masking tape and a 6 inch piece of yarn taped outside the cockpit works as a good turn indicator. Just dont have your engine running. It will alwyas be straight :)
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..as a side note beet and I would argue about the color green.
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Nopoop! You're such a nice chap, and fun to argue with too. :):D
You said it was not a "turn indicator". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you thought I was still talking about the ball. I wasn't, and had moved on to the turn indicator instrument, as depicted in my picture - with comment. :lol It is clearly marked as a TURN indicator, but you said it wasn't a turn indicator.
Virages explanation is a good one. Read the last two sentences of it 100 times. Your "turn" gauge shows exactly what the stick and ball does. A bank to the left and a slip to right. Requiring left rudder to center the ball.
I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt here also; that may be how it's set up in AH, but having done my own tests, I can tell you that it's not set up properly, and does not provide valid rate of turn information in AH.
Indeed, as Virage's C&P reminds us, it is a useful instrument in the event that the vacuum system fails - the turn ind. will still work because it has a different source of power. Some aircraft don't have a vacuum system, and the instrumentation is "partial panel" - no artificial horizon or direction ind., just the turn and ball.
Virage's C&P saidThe turn needle of the turn-and-bank indicator gives an indirect indication of the bank attitude of the aircraft.
That statement is clouded by the words "indirect indication". The fact is, the turn indicator will not provide an absolute indication of the angle of bank, because there's another factor that enters the equation. Speed. A plane like your C150 travelling at 100mph can make a Rate 1 turn of 3° per second with a modest angle of bank. Indeed, taxiing on the ground, it can make a Rate 1 turn without having to bank at all! But a faster plane, travelling at say 250mph, will need to bank more steeply to achieve that Rate 1 turn.
So yes, the turn indicator could be used as a loose indication of angle of bank - in coordinated flight and at a predetermined speed.
One could also argue that a clock that stopped at 8:44 is dead accurate twice in each 24 hour day. True, but not a lot of use. :aok
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Ahh!!!
Now I know why i suck so bad.
The noodle and pea doesn't work right.
That was good for my ego.
If HTC ever fixes this, be afraid!
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To pull the tongue out of my cheek:
If it's any consolation, the AH horizon is overmodelled.
It is perfect, like a lazer gyro.
I'm sure this was to compensate for the dodgy turn and slip indicator.
Most mechanical gyros will be thrown completely out of whack with just a few aerobatic moves.
HT, YOU NEED TO FIX THIS!
lol, sorry.
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Hmm but the spit didn't have a ball. That gagues is exactly the same as all needel and ball setups on other planes . We just put an extra ball on most planes closer to the gun sight.
HiTech
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Extra balls never hurt no one :)
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
Extra balls never hurt no one :)
unless they get stepped on.
:eek: