Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Tilt on January 27, 2004, 03:39:25 AM
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I suppose I could say that WoD jumped at the chance/honour to fly with the Allies in frame 3.
I could say that we fancied a bit of a change.
I would have to categorically deny we just volunteered to help balance the sides.
It could be said that they (them other axis squads) ganged up on us, that secret meetings took place, that a note was pushed under the door in the dead of night saying "some ones gotta go and we have decided its you guys". Guess I'd have to deny that too.
But I hates em already......damn axis types...........
Does any one have that flag the Mexicans waved at the Alamo? .................. the red one?
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Originally posted by Tilt
"some ones gotta go and we have decided its you guys".
No Tilt, the note said "....we have decided its you." Singular!
:D
Thanks for frames 1 and 2, Tilt & WoD, always a pleasure flying with you gents!!
Camo
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(http://www.humanities-interactive.org/texas/alamo/enhanced/ex004_15h_gs150.jpg)
design is perfect, whats reason to swich?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ramzey
[Bdesign is perfect, whats reason to swich?:rolleyes: [/B]
Wrong flag................. I meant the red one............:p
Santa Anna left no doubt regarding his attitude towards the defenders of the Alamo. He sent a message that demanded immediate surrender or death by sword. Travis answered the demand with a cannon ball. Santa Anna hoisted a blood-red battle flag, the traditional Mexican symbol of no quarter, no surrender, no mercy.
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design is perfect, whats reason to swich?
Your opinion has been noted and discussed by all the command staff of all the participating squads. 9 squads voted to continue and gave feedback on either the B17 or the SBD option. 1 squad voted to cancel the frame.
The specific reason for the switch is that 2 allied squads said that they preferred the SBD option for frame 3 instead of the limited B17 option. They emailed me and others saying that they thought 3 - 4 formations of B17s (9-12 late war B17s) could produce a more exaggerrated effect on the frame than the JU88s did. Since the B17s are much more heavily armed and can take much more punishment.
So after getting feedback from squads instead, while not historical, the US is getting SBDs with second lives.
In light of this, to have the allies at a number disadvantage does not make sense and is not balanced (with the B17 option it would have been balanced). So we are moving the WoD to the allied side for the frame to boost the allies numbers. Consider it a transfer of a fighter squad from Mindanao since the IJN did not take out those bases in the south.
P.S. Your website and email was down last night. Hopefully it is now up and you have gotten the objectives for frame 3.
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Ghostdancer, as Allied CO of the 3rd frame I never recieved any email asking if we prefer SBD's with 2 lives to B-17s.
I actually have an opinion, and emailed you.. plz reply.
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Originally posted by ViFF
Ghostdancer, as Allied CO of the 3rd frame I never recieved any email asking if we prefer SBD's with 2 lives to B-17s.
lol
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ps. our ISP is moving server, webpage is up now, mail will be up soon. Always you can mail me at ramzey@joimail.com
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ViFF I have posted here and sent it in most of the emails. The suggestion of SBDs was put forth and argued for by Flyboy of your squad. Feedback was asked on the B17 idea when we were discussing the results of frame 1 and that is Flyboy brought up the SBD idea.
Now alot of people just sent their comments to me privately and did not send their comments to everyone involved. Since you did not comment on it, I took it that Flyboy, your X.O. was stating your squad's position.
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ViFF I just sent email to all the command staff of the squads.
You have the SBD option. Which is the SBDs, 2 lives each and Wings of Death move to allies.
Or you have the B17 option. 3 formations of B17s (9), no second life, alt cap of 22K, and Wings of Death stay IJN. Oh, and obviously no dive bombing B17s please.
I am awaiting your choice, and feedback from 880th and 56th Firebird. 315th had made their opinion clear that they think the event should be cancelled.
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GD my english is not perfect, but i write about swiching design to other.
You have great selective reading. Im impress
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Ramzey you wrote in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107005):
Ghostdancer, could you cancel last frame and let Suave run his setup next week? Of course if he is ready
This setup is wont worth to fix
These are your words and I think all of those reading it understand your stated position. You may hold to your opinion of me that I am doing "selective" reading. You may try the excuse that your english is not very good and keep stating that to everyone that I and others don't understand what you really mean. Its a simple two sentences your wrote here.
I will let your words asking to cancel the last frame (frame 3 of the event) and moving up Suave SSO instead speak for you.
Your opinons on the BBS and previously by email has been noted. It has been read by the CMs and the command staff of the other squads.
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and in response you wrote about cancel next frame and none word about replace it by other setup
QUOTE]Originally posted by ghostdancer
I have not gotten responses back from every squad yet. But here is the responses I have gotten from the commanding staff of the squads participatin so far in response to Ramzey call to cancel frame 3:
[/QUOTE]
should be
QUOTE]Originally posted by ghostdancer
I have not gotten responses back from every squad yet. But here is the responses I have gotten from the commanding staff of the squads participatin so far in response to Ramzey call to cancel frame 3 and run Suave setup next week in place of fame 3:
[/QUOTE]
right?
Suave is not ready with next setup, cancel next frame of SOPS is unacceptable. SO we running last frame of this setup. Its obvious
SO what for this pool? just for fun?
eot for me
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All the command staff of the squads have read the emails sent and the posts sent. They all know you called for frame to be cancelled and if possible to move up the next frame.
For somebody who claims he doesn't know English very, well you are doing a very, very good job of trying to cut a very, very fine semantic hair.
I posted the following on the CM board:
Since most of the squads C.O.s or X.O.s are CMs I thought I would also post here.
Ramzey wants to cancel frame 3 and move to Suave.
I have already heard from the 88oth (Warloc) saying no and from the 101 RED Israel saying no.
You called for the cancellation of frame 3 of this event and if possible moving up the other SSO. They read it, I emailed them about posted it on a forum that I know many of them read to try to speed up the process and I got their answers.
I am sorry that you are unhappy that the other squads did not agree with your assessment of frame 1. I am sorry that you are unhappy that the other squads command staff voiced their opinion and wanted to continue with frame 3 with the modifications and have been giving constructive feedback instead of canceling and trying to move Suave’s SSO forward.
I do believe and give them credit that they perfectly understood what you were asking for and then what I was asking if they wanted to cancel frame 3 and bring Suave's SSO up a week if possible.
They are adults who read the threads and their email and are able to make logical well founded solutions without having everything spelled out in exquisite detail in every single posting and every email. I believe they can extrapolate and remember what they read in a posting and email to the next during a discussion. That I don’t have to constantly in every single email and posting repeat exactly what they have read and has been stated before or that they won’t remember.
I believe they do remember your email about frame 1 where you emailed about the quality of the squad ops events and your concern for the rest of the event. At the time I requested their opinions and feedback. The C.O.s and X.O.s of the other squads thought it was fun and said that their pilots, in general had fun that frame. And that they did not have an issue with the quality of squad ops.
Your response was:
"its not the point i have funn or not."
That is your opinion and you are entitled too it. Just like now. But they are entitled to their opinions. You many continue in your opinion and semantics argument that since I did not say and move Suave’s SSO up in every single posting and correspondence that they did not know what they were being asked to give an opinion on.
Ghostdancer, NOT CANCEL EVENT, SWICH DESIGN!
next is not ready so we have NO other choice. Design is good or not
so, pls stop using this comunistic demagogy, i heard it enough in school
You may continue to insult me via email for my attempts to actually gather people’s input and feedback to figure out what I did wrong and improve my performance and the fun factor of events offered. And for then describing my decision based on the unanimous feedback of the command staff of the other squads as “communistic demagogy.”
Basically I am damned if I consult others and let myself be swayed and modifications based on their feedback or if I ignore them. I am sure if I ignored them and valued 1 opinion over the other 9 or only my opinion that I would be deemed by some to be just a demagogue on a power trip.
You may continue to try to convince me and others that you don’t mean what you say and that your actions don’t also what you convey.
You have that right.
I will continue to strive to treat people in a professional way (failing at times granted .. since I am human). I will continue to give people the credit of being able to think logical and critically. I will continue to seek the feedback of the participants and command staff of squads. And I will give it due consideration.
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its not the point i have funn or not.
If you add the word "personally", you get what Ramzey meant to say:
"It's not the point that me, as an individual pilot, needs to have fun or not, but the overall amount of people that particpate in historical based events get's the possibility to have fun. "
I don't think that anyone here expected you to cancel frame 3, just because ramzey proposed it... even not ramzey himself.
Making a poll about this was pathetic, especially if the XO of CM team and teamleader of friday and sunday SO makes it.
As long as 315 RAF doesn't break any of these rules (http://events.hitechcreations.com/squadops/rules.php) , you can tell us considering to leave or make as many polls as you like to bash us. We will stay. ;)
We like to fly historical events and as long you don't write openly, that you encourage player critics as long as they don't come from ramzey or myself, we will give our input via email or on this BB. All the critics, even though you obviously have a different point of view on this, are not meant as personal attacks against you or any other admin CM. That's how it is, was and always will be.
I'm upset that you think that we don't like flying SSO and it made me really angry when Flossy asked us to re-evaluate our participation in this. Do really think, that I would spend dozens of hours of my freetime and sit until night in front of my PC working on the squadops page, if I don't like it?
If you are honestly, there would be no squadops page ready without me (well, there didn't much change since I finished my part in mid Dec). I feel sorry that I left the squadops page project for those people who worked with me on it and shared their thoughts of how to make it. Especially Gremlin, who now has to work alone again on coding and has to understand what I have done and how.
But how could I work for people that ask me indirectly to leave SO?
You feel insulted? What do you think how I feel?
I suggest skuzzy closes this thread and we spend our time and energy on sunday squadops and not on politics.
That's my last statement on this topic.
p.s. If you want to know how difficult it is to discuss with sophisticated native speakers, you should start to learn polish and discuss with ramzey in 1,5 years. I bet it would change your mind.
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Your opinion is noted and I am sure will be evaluated by all and they can make up there own minds as to what was meant of not by Ramzey's words and yours.
You consider a poll pathetic. I consider it checking to see if others felt the way being ascribe to them by one party. I have many examples in the past of modifying SSO events, while the event was going, based on players feedback. So you can say state that nobody would contradict me .. once again you are making the assumption of speaking for them and assuming they are afraid of me somehow because of my position. I believe past events have shown that I do listen and do modify. I have in the past even removed a CM from running an event based on player feedback.
But you are entitled to your opinion that it is pathetic and nobody would contradict me.
I try to keep my style as flexible and consensus building. I do have other CMs tell me that it should be more dictatorial and that this is the setup, these are the rules, and either participate or don't.
The point of fun was stated in email and the other respondents were saying that they and their squads are having fun. You may make your case that Ramzey really meant that his response was only meant about him having fun and not in response to another squad saying that they had fun contradicting his opinon. That is your right.
I am sorry that you feel insulted that other people's opinions are taking into consideration. But did I call any of you a communist demagogue? Did I call for Tilt being punished (banned) for not getting orders out in time like the 412th was? When in truth I had explained that frame 1 was delayed because of real life event without going into detail about the exact details. Only explaining the details after calling for Tilt to be treated like the 412th.
Did I say step down from working on the events server. Gremlin was already working on the events server and on your own initiate you started one of your own without being asked by the CM corp to do so. He asked to incorporate you into the project and it was agreed to.
Your participation was valuable and did speed up the process but yes, it was being worked on. Can not your statements about Gremlin be considered insulting to him?
Do you not think that the posts that Ramzey has posted can't be viewed in a negative light?
and why we not learn week ago?
design is perfect, whats reason to swich? :rolleyes:
You have great selective reading. Im impress
(in response to Bike Kil's post)
if somone will give you cube to play, you will be happy to ;-)
Need a go on. I value all feedback. The others have given feedback even when upset and unhappy about frames and specific items. The tone of their messages in my opinion is different. You say it is not. That is fine and your opinion.
My closing thought is remember that HiTech and Pyro posted a thread in the past about civility and uncivility on the BBS boards and consequences.
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constructive feed back, here you have
Frame 1
After you post objectives i ask you to open ports as airfields and move IJN fleet back to prevent fast NOE strike.
When you call off frame i wont pay more attencion about other mistakes in setup. I was sure week more can give you time to rethink all settings.
Obvious for me was:
- secound life for bomber pilots will be secound life as bomber pilot
- IJN will be obligued to use bombers for attack, not jabo. What in consequence will force IJN to fight with defending forces and defend his bomber during bomber run ( dive bombers). Obvious was, high alt Kates with max 3 bombs cannot do many damages on field. So bombers will fly up to 22-25 k. Its very hard for P40B to fight on this alt , but not impossible.
Obvoius was, defending 3 ports USAF must split forces . With lower numbers, even if all are in fighters its impossible to stand against IJN strike . So will be not concentration of allied fighters.
USAF units who patrol southern port cannot fly there in less then 20 min.
I did mistake and let one of the squadrons CAP 15 more minutes on request of SL. I should force them to rearm and send over eastern port. My weeknes i not did that. Thats why first strike was not intercepted.
I should mention , it was 1h 20 min of event time.
After that i establish CAP and scouts over last 2 targets and wait for secound strike.
15 min before frame end we spot bunch of zekes trying to reach our port in time. Flying mid level due lack of time. We let them pass and keep searching for bombers. But bombers never come.
I should mention its highly historical incorect to use zekes as Jabo in this setup.
Lucki for people and setup we all saw fight in this last 10 min of event. Thats is the reason about low level of complain. But thats not mean it was perfect frame.
Tilt did great battle plan and execute it well. But avoiding fight on SOPS os not main target of event. COuple times people was complaining about, not seen action duiring event and allways CM's state it was "unexpirienced commander", sho should not walk this way. Of course it was not against rules , but as somone said "unsporty"
errors:
- wrong choice of terrain wichone have low numbers of airfields, and they are placed far one form other.
- only one operatioinal airfield for allies ( good for USAF , airfield was not object to attack)
- incorrect writed rule about secound life for IJN bombers
- missing rule about using numbers of planes (in consequence)
- missing rule about not using Zeke as jabo plane
-wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useles (have you heard about observation corps?)
Frame 2
Knowing everything what went wrong in frame one i suspect rules will be corrected.
But again was not.
Camo walk same wasy as Tilt did. Using tactic of burning fuel by 2 hours.
2 hours zeke use plane advantage to stay above allied fighters and after 1:20 minutes we saw ju88 passing 28k+ over our fields.
Minor damage they did atacking form this alt are just funny.
Of course its cool to fly, drop bomb and fly back home knowing nothing can touch us. But its good for somone who fly FS or delivery mail. I ican say 2 kills for allies we did, was only by accident. When bored zekes attack us.
not use in this frame dive bombers keep away any fight. Simple IJN have no reasons to escort or even trying to clean up space from allied fighters. Allies cannot reach bombers, even if they have poof chances to idamage them
errors in frame 2
- no alt limit for ju88
- no rule about minimum numbers of used planes
- wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useles
- too long distance between IJN and US airfields making impossible to do secound strike
- and still bad rule about secound life
Frame 3
here was extended version of complaing about errors in frame 3. But for good of USAF i will post it via mail
enough?
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lucull, I am not going to close this thread. I would remind everyone that insults have absolutely no constructive value. If you want to be taken seriously, then that is the first thing that will stop. Right now.
I would like to think that everyone is intelligent enough to realize that insults will never serve to improve a situation. If you think or believe it is correct to insult, then you will need to move on.
Please do not insult my intelligence by attempting to defend a position riddled with insults.
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constructive feed back, here you have
Frame 1
After you post objectives i ask you to open ports as airfields and move IJN fleet back to prevent fast strike.
I moved the IJN fleet back as you requested to prevent a quick strike.
While I can let ports up airplanes I have not control over the map and it could have proved very hazardous for them upping there. Plus, your point of moving the IJN fleet was to prevent a quick strike. I did not see the need to move the fleet and then also open up the ports so that you could try to spawn there.
As for landing at the port to rearm you can try but there is nothing I can do to make it easier.
When you call off frame i wont pay more attencin about other mistakes in setup. I was sure week more can give you time to rethink all settings.
I had Flossy call off the frame and site the reasons. At not time did I say I was scrapping the events and we were moving up Suave’s event. That is an assumption you made.
Obvius for me was:
- secound life for bomber pilots will be secound life as bomber pilot
- IJN will be obligued to use bombers for attack, not jabo. What in consequence will force IJN to fight with defending forces and defend his bomber during bomber run ( dive bombers). Obvious was, high alt Kates with max 3 bombs cannot do many damages on field. So fight bomber will fly up to 22-25 k. Its very hard for P40B to fight on this alt , but not impossible.
Second life of bombers were actually used as fighters pilots. They could have used them as bombers if they wanted. There are pluses and drawbacks to them reupping as bombers. Its part of being faced with a tactical and strategic decision. Tilt made choices about how to use them.
IJN used the bombers as JABO. They were D3A1s. They did not up B5Ns. The IJN commander was faced with decisions about how to use his planes. If he used B5Ns he has several problems .. their performance at alt. The fact that they are basically defenseless and the problems of bombing from high alt with such a small bomb load.
You made assumptions about how the IJN commander would deploy his forces and these were not borne out. Could they have done what you feared yes. Even if they did the consequences might not have turned out the way you feared.
Obvoius was, defending 3 ports USAF must split forces and with lower number even if all are in fighters its impossible to stand against IJN strike . So will be not concentration of allied fighters.
USAF units who patrol southern port cannot fly there in less then 20 min.
The three ports were stationed in close proximity to each other (2 right next to each
other) and 1 2 sectors away. The IJN fleet was moved, at your request to make sure that you had the time to get to those ports and get alt. As you requested.[/b]
As for concentration of allied fighters yes and no.
The IJN fielded 21 D3A1s in the first strike and 15 A6M2s. If you split your forces between the two target areas equally that would have allowed you to have 16 P40Bs on station on one and 15 on the other. You have have fighter parity no matter what they hit. If Tilt went with less Fighters yes, you would be outnumbered. His D3A1s would get through but your fighter force should maul his fighters. Then its possible that your second force alerted to the size of the attack could have mauled his D3A1s outbound when their fighter escort was significantly fewer and out of cannon. Remember only D3A1s get second lives.
So yes and no in my opinion.
I did mistake and let one of the squadrons CAP 15 more minutes on request of SL. I should force them to rearm and send over eastern port. My weeknes i not did that. Thats why first strike was not intercepted.
I should mention , it was 1h 20 min of event time.
I understand that it was 1 hour and 20 minutes into the event. I did not expect such a late strike but I have seen late strikes before in events. Which is why I asked squads what they thought and how it affected their fun.
After that i establish CAP and scouts over last 2 targets and wait for secound strike.
15 min before frame end we spot bunch of zekes trying to reach our port in time. Flying mid level due lack of time. We let them pass and keep searching for bombers. But bombers never come.
I should mention its highly historical incorect to use zekes as Jabo in this setup.
Agreed I did not expect them to up with bombs (only 3 did) and thus, did not write a rule banning it. Just like I did not expect if the allies go with the B17 option in frame 3 for them to do “dive bombing B17s.” But in hind sight went back and specifically posted about not doing that just to make sure. I expected drop tanks. Wrong assumption on my part and fixed for frame 2 and frame 3.
Lucki for people and setup we all saw fight in this last 10 min of event. Thats is the reason about low level of complain. But thats not mean it was perfect frame.
This is your opinion and take on it. Which is why I also asked other peoples opinions. They did not agree with you for frame 1. Your opinion is valid and so is theirs.
Tilt did grat battle plan and execute it well. But avoiding fight on SOPS os not main target of event. COuple times people was compplaining about not seen action duiring event and allways CM's state it was "unexpirienced commander", sho should not walk this way. Of course it was not against rules , but as somone said "unsporty"
You need to discuss with Tilt the reasoning behind his plan. I can’t comment on whether he we was on purpose was trying to avoid fights. I think he was trying to maximize his strengths to catch you at a weak point. But only Tilt can fully expounded on his reasoning for his battle plan.
As for your point about unexperienced commander. The CM’s can’t script every person’s move. The only way to learn is to try things. Squad Ops about giving people a shot at trying and some times they fail some times they don’t. Many time they approach the tactical objectives in ways nobody thinks of. No matter what rules are written you always have varying qualities of commanders and battle plans.
errors:
- wrong chiuce of terrain wichone have low numbers of airfields, and they are placed far one form other.
Your opinion. The terrain has been used several times successfully in the past.
- only one operatioinal airfield for allies ( good for USAF , airfield was not object to attack)
Don’t see how another operation airfield would have made more of a difference since we moved the IJN fleet father out. Yes you would have not 2 sectors to fly to target but you would still fly back 2 sectors. Or try to land and refuel at a port
- incorrect writed rule about secound life for IJN bombers
Your opinion.
- missing rule about using numbers of planes (in consequence)
Your opinion. Allied side and IJN side were told about second strike capability and noted in the objectives where said US had to work to keep planes alive to deal with second strike.
- missing rule about not using Zeke as jabo plane
Agreed.
-wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useles (have you heard about observation corps?)
Your opinion. And base under attack was enabled.
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Frame 2
Knowing everything what went wrong in frame one i suspect rules will be corrected.
But again was not.
Both you and Lucull were informed of the modifications. Lucull even responded to them via email. I stated specifically what I was modifying.
Camao walk same wasy as Tilt did. Using tactic of burning fuel by 2 hours.
Camo’s strike came in at roughly the same time Tilt’s did on the first frame. However, this time unlike before the targets were the two airfields and you did not have to travel 2 sectors to patrol. Which was believed to give you the ability to plan refueling patterns and even delay launches to conserve fuel (which was done over in FSO just recently in Battle of Britain).
2 hours zeke use plane advantage to stay above allied fighters and after 1:20 minutes we saw ju88 passing 28k+ over our fields.
Minor damage they did atacking form this alt are just funny.
Of course its cool to fly, drop bomb and fly back home knowing nothing can touch us. But its good for somone who fly FS or delivery mail. I ican say 2 kills for allies we did, was only by accident. When bored zekes attack us.
not use in this frame dive bombers keep away any fight. Simple IJN have no reasons to escort or even trying to clean up space from allied fighters. Thay cannot reach bombers, even if they have poof chances to idamage them
Agreed. I did not seriously ever consider the possibility that somebody would try to bomb in JU88s from that altitude. Since it is extremely inaccurate. I have seen it done in FSO but basically only when you have a massive bomber force carpet bombing (i.e. 30 formations of buffs). I did not seriously think any CiC would choose such course that most likely guaranteed not doing damage to bases. On the flip side the IJN could have also just upped all JU88s and flown high and go without escorts.
This was an oversight. Which if the allies go with the 3 B17 formations in frame 3 an alt cap has been put in place. Although if they really wanted to try to bomb a maneuvering fleet from the high 20s or 30s .. well good luck and have fun watching the splashes. But as you point out while ineffective for bombing the real impact is that it ruins the fun of the defending fighters. Which is why I am making modifications for frame 3 and at people’s suggestions switched to a SBD strike to replace the B17 strike.
errors in frame 2
- no alt limit for ju88
Agreed I did not think a CiC would sacrifice bomb accuracy when they have only small about of bombers to guarantee their safety.
- no rule about minimum numbers of used planes
Your opinion. In hindsight I would now have been more worried about a maximum limit of planes. 36 formations of JU88s would have been a nightmare.
- wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useless
Radar refresh rate was increased. Base under attack was on. Your opinion.
- too long distance between IJN and US airfields making impossible to do secound strike
Disagree. The IJN were given 3 airfields to strike from. The closest at 4 sectors. It depended on their battle plan. They could have opted to use the closer base with different planes. Their battle plan not base locatin precluded a second strike. That is the CiC’s choice.
- and still bad rule about secound life
Rule about second life was modified not to include JU88s. This is your opinion. Lucull even stated he saw the logic behind giving early war bombers a second life so that they did more than just be sitting ducks. In first frame, they came up as fighters and only 1 second lifer came up with a bomb on the A6M2. In second frame no second lives used. I still believe it’s a valid rule and the U.S. has it for its SBDs if they go with that option for frame 3.
Frame 3
here was extended version of complaing about errors in frame 3. But for good of USAF i will post it via mail
enough?
Fine and reasonably thought out present in a positive manner.
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As I said I will consider all constructive and postive feedback. However, I have a balance to walk making 10 squads happy. When in doubt I double check my own thoughts by asking for feedback which is what I did on frame 1. You can consider it poll taking and what value it really has or does not have.
I did not think frame 1 was seriously flawed. But then again people have to understand that CMs can never construct something that has no possibility of getting out of whack if we still want to allow the CiCs to have free will and come up with plans. The other route is I tell you what squad is assigned to what planes, how many planes, when you have to hit a target by, etc. .. in the extreme. I don't think anybody wants that. I know I don't as a participant in FSO.
Frame 2 got feedback on before the event also. On that I will admit I made a mistake. I did not think that one side would basically choose a course that guaranteed the survival of their bombers but do little significant damage to their targets or the defenders. The possibility was brought up but I didn't think I had to say .. well if you do that you won't win the frame by flying that high and really will be tedious. It seems that I do have to spell more things out. So frame 2 is flawed because I didn't seriously consider a possibility. And in hindsight could have been worse because I did not assign a limit on the JU88s .. think of 36 JU88 formation.
Frame 3 I think is workable. I think with frame 2 in mind that switching to equal forces and the U.S. SBDs having second lives instead of using B17s would be the best course of action to better guarantee fun for all. I posted and included it in many emails.
It was missed by the selected allied commander so I reopened the discussion.
Again can be viewed as taking a poll. I view it as consensus building where I ask for feedback to try to keep myself in touch with the participants. This could be a flaw or a wrong way to approach things. Its the way I do it.
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Skuzzy, I'm not riddling anything and I don't find any insulting word which attacks Ghostdancer or any other as person.
I wrote in my last post that any critic is not meant personally and I mean it.
Gremlin buddy, I know what you have coded, how much work is in it and I know the quality of your code I implemented. I also know that you work also on the Scores, Snapshots and CAP pages. I don't think you have a reason to feel insulted when I described my worries, that I left you alone on the squadops page project. :)
But yes, I'm not happy (and defiently not the only one), that the page is still not finished, but the reasons for this don't belong here.
Ghostdancer, I didn't mean Tilt to be treaten like the 412th. I didn't know, that frame 1 was delayed by Tilt's request. How could I by reading Flossy's email:
Hi all
Ghostdancer has asked me to contact you all to let you know that, as he "screwed up" due to various RL issues, Frame 1 will now be put back a week until the 18th. Apologies for the inconvenience, but hopefully moving it to the following Sunday will make sure you get a "quality event". This Sunday, BlkKnit has kindly offered to run a Snapshot instead, so I hope as many of you as possible will come along to that - and bring along others too!
--
Flossy
Head CM
Aces High CM Team
What I have asked for is, that if a CM is not able to make it due to RL issues, he should organize a backup CM, cause that's the way how it is handled if a player/CiC can't make it, instead of delaying the event for everybody.
Something is pathetic, if you know the result already, correct? (but my dictionary gives a couple of more german translations for it)
And I don't think anybody would seriously expect a series to be cancelled in squadops if some players of one side found one frame boring. (only 315 thought frame 1 was boring too)
Of course I think that you encourage player's critics and I see that you change things based on them.
It just doesn't seem that you accept any critics done by ramzey or me anymore and I asked, that if it is like that, you should say it openly. Trust me, we would shut up. ;)
Certainly you didn't ask me to leave the squadops page project. It was Flossy (CM team leader), who told ramzey and me to re-evaluate participation in SSO. As I told you before, how could I work for something, when I'm obviously asked to not participate in it?
Last but not least, I speak for myself and as XO and therefor as representative of my squad, which doesn't automatically mean that I speak for all of my squadmates. And if needed, I help ramzey to argue, when he asks me or I think someone misunderstands him.
I don't speak for anybody else. Wasn't showing this the goal of your poll and meantioning the result in more than half of a dozen messages since then?
I do have other CMs tell me that it should be more dictatorial and that this is the setup, these are the rules, and either participate or don't.
And after the event, you should evaluate your own design and ask players for their opinion about it, to improve for the next design.
You just weaken your own position, when you entrap yourself in endless discussions with players. Frankly, I wouldn't do that. :)
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lucull, do not take my entire post as directed at you. It was not. The only response to you was I would not close the thread.
The rest is to be taken as general comment on the quality of information being provided. Insults, be they sarcastic, indirect, or directed will never provide a medium for constructive discussions to take place.
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I do have other CMs tell me that it should be more dictatorial and that this is the setup, these are the rules, and either participate or don't.
Who would say such a thing? :D
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Alright Skuzzy.
Hehe, daddog. :D
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As a 'former' CM I have not gotten into these discusions much but must now admit that this is getting tiring.
I do not wish to sling insults .. but this entire thread is a waste of time and effort and I do not feel that ramzey is worth wasting time over.
The 'pathetic' pole was very enlightening to me. Was it pathetic in that yours was the only vote for a cancelation? Ahh .. I thought so. Once again the vocal minority tries but fails to derail the SSO ......
thanks for coming out ... :rolleyes:
lucull worked hard on the webpage and got it looking good. It was strange and I still don't know why he walked away from it ... but in the end it will be finished without his help.
Too bad you had some great ideas lucull ..
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Lucull,
Usually I would have asked another CM to cover. The RL illness in family just came up suddenly and I was scrambling and simply could not get things in motion fast enough to give both sides time to put together plans. Ramzey got plans together .. the IJN side was some confusion caused be me assign Tilt as CiC when it should have been AndyH from his squad.
At the last moment since, since I was going to be out of touch from friday to sunday night. I decided it was better to delay than run the risk of the Allies showing up and the IJN not. Which is why I asked Flossy to relay my delay orders. Call me anal but because I wouldn't be in touch and couldn't make sure that everything gotten hammered out in time I did not want to leave people possibly in the lurch.
If I had more warning I would have simply turned things over to another CiC. But we have little control over somethings in our lives.
I would say that I do accept your and Ramzey's critiques. I did make modifications to frame 2. However, there are items that I don't agree with and so won't change. I value all opinions and have to take into account everyone's opinion. I still have to make value judgements and as the posts above denote there are things I don't agree with and their things I did modify.
I have recieved Ramzey frame 3 critique of the rules and there are many things I don't agree with there. But there are some that I do and I will explain via email.
The point of the poll and messages is to gather feedback and relay things. I take it for granted that the officers of each squad keeps in touch with his squad mates and assess their opinions and can pass on the general feeling. I don't think anyone thinks that each of the other 9 squads members are 100% agreement. But each CO and XO basically finds out where his squads stands (majority) and passes it on.
I don't have time to ask for opinions of 70 individual people in SSO. And over 200 FSO. I rely on it being more representatives. The CO and XO are representative of their members and hopefully are accurately reflecting what their members in general think.
As for the results the point of that is simply this that I believe it would be pure arrogance for me to say the other squads think you are wrong. They might have thought you were right. So since I was unwilling to put words in their mouths I asked them.
Also as stated by email one point of view does not out weight 9 others. You may avidly believe you are correct but since this is a group event people must be willing to consider other view points and at times accept them. If I didn't post the results of my feedback then people could say I was just handing down a position and while the majority vehemently disagreed with me.
I asked and found out the majority did not have issues with frame and thought it was fun. Frame 2 the allied side did not have fun and the IJN side did to an extent. But all seem to agree it could have played out better. Frame 3 most want to give it a shot instead of moving up Suave's SSO (which is now academic too late to move it up).
Its about checking people's view points, seeing if your own logic has major flaws, and making a value decision. With 10 squads involved its impossible to make everyone happy all the time and people have to accept that they might be unhappy now. But later on their view point might be the one more accepted which makes others unhappy.
Its like you might not like so-so as a CiC but you know later you will get a shot or that the next CiC you think is terrific at it.
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Oh, one further point if you think things stem from Ramzey poor command of English and him be misinterpreted I would suggest the following.
Ramzey writes his responses in fluid Polish send them to you or another person who can translate better into English. Send the english version back to Ramzey and then Ramzey post.
Tedious and more time intensive but only way I can see to further reduce Polish to English miscommunications.
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Ramzey writes his responses in fluid Polish send them to you or another person who can translate better into English. Send the english version back to Ramzey and then Ramzey post.
Tedious and more time intensive but only way I can see to further reduce Polish to English miscommunications.
Good idea, the only problem is to find a volunteer for that, because my polish is almost as good as yours. I can curse in polish, that's all. :)
But I will try to help ramzey to be more clear and we will try to be more polite and respectful in future and if you are not sure what we mean, just ask for further explanations, before you "strike" back.
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ramzey has the art of sarcasm mastered better than many who speak english as a native language.
There are many online translators. Perhaps ramzey can post here in Polish and those who care can translate it.
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Lucull,
Really? For some reason I thought you were fluid in Polish? Was it just Ramzey, Fdski, Bike Kil, and Suave who were?
I guess I was under the wrong impression that you were too and others from that group.
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Nah, I'm german and I speak only german, english, french and latin, but definetly not polish. Polish is a pain in the bellybutton to learn. :D
We have one other guy in the squad who is from England and doesn't speak polish too.
All others are poles and most of them speak english only a few. I would say there is only one pole in the squad who speaks better english than ramzey. :D
I'm used to ask for further explanations.
I have no problem with this. I knew them even before AH and I met most of them on my visit in Poland in summer last year and enjoyed the polish hospitality. You don't need to speak much when you eat Kabanossi and drink Vodka to have fun together. :)
You can use dictionaries or your hands and feet. :D
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GD,
you should also pull Suave out of that list.
HOwever i have to admit that Suave impressed me with his knowledge of polish language many times! :)
Lucull, your english is wey better then mine, so i believe you don't have much problems with expressing your exact thoughts. It would be greately appriciated if you or anyone else help ramzey to express himself in a polite way (or at least to help him express exactly what he means). If this is's better to do it that way, then ask "you mean what you type? or maybe you mean some other thing? please explain".
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I always try to be as clear as possible, but the list of misunderstandings is incredible long and growing.
Someone should always ask his opponent in a discussion for further explanations, if he is unsure about the meaning. Misunderstandings are inevitable in any form of discussion and are not mandatory related to language problems.
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yes Lucull, you are right here, however things should be started just where it starts. that's why i asked about checking things prior posting. This will possibly save a lot of misunderstandings. Then if this failed it's a good idea to ask of course.
Fact is that persn who is aware of his language skill should take the effort and take care of what he types more then presons to whom the message is addressed.
If that becomes clear that person who posted passed the message he didn't really meant to, it's a good idea to appologize for the misunderstandings. "I'm sorry" is not a hard word to use.
This is not addressed to anyone. It could be me, you, ramzey or any other person who unintentionally offended the other one.
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To give you an impression about how difficult polish language is, download and listen this MP3 (http://wesq.republika.pl/Brz.mp3) file.
It's a polish soldier making fun of a german soldier in WW2.
In case you don't understand the polish soldier's surname, it's Brzęczyszczykiewicz. :D
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LOL !
I understood it hehehe
My family from my mother's side are from Poland, I'm used to hearing some Polish, but mostly Yiddish around the house.
My grandfather was an officer in the Polish Calvary, you know.. the ones that charged the Whermacht Panzers with their horses... he was one of the few who survived, and managed to escape Europe to the middle east, through Syria, then settle down in Israel where he met my grandmother (whos family was also from Poland but uprooted to Israel before WW2).
Sadly, his whole family (all of his 8 brothers and sisters, and parents) perished in the Holocaust.