Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Curval on January 27, 2004, 04:59:57 PM
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I have a friend who I had lost touch with and today I finally heard why. He was jailed for 3 years (prosecutor wanted 9).
I have only heard one side of the story..his, prior to his appearance in court.
As I understand it he noticed a Verizon van parked out of the front of his home and there were 2 or 3 guys wandering around his property. He went out and asked to see their IDs..which they had...but they were not Verizon IDs..something else. Anyway, he asked them to leave. They refused and started to get very threatening with them. So, he went inside and got his gun, which wasn't loaded. He then went back outside and asked them again to leave, but did not point the gun at them (as they stood on HIS property) but instead held it pointing down at the ground. They called the police.
Really stupid thing to do...but what I don't understand is how that can happen in the US based upon what I read on these boards all the time.
Your thoughts...particularly yours lazs?
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"If youre gonna be dumb enough to pull a gun on a man, you better be smart enough to pull the trigger."
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You omitted telling 'where' in the US. If it was New York or New Jersey I'm not surprised. Sorry to hear it though....
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Delaware.
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Not suprised.
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Threatening someone with a gun is assault, whether it's loaded or not. The assault charge is based on the victim's belief of imminent danger, not on the intent of the accused or on reality.
He went out, actively seeking to confront them. He took the assaultive action. It's hard to argue self defense in that case (although possible). If he'd sat in his house with a loaded gun pointed at the doors and windows, he would have been legally ok.
He should have gone inside and called the police. If they tried to follow him to assault him or his family (again, based on his belief of imminent danger), then put some new holes in them.
Despite what you may have heard about American gun laws, one is not allowed to defend one's property with the threat of deadly force.
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Originally posted by Dune
Not suprised.
Because of Delaware or what he did?
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Threatening someone with a gun is assault, whether it's loaded or not. The assault charge is based on the victim's belief of imminent danger, not on the intent of the accused or on reality.
He went out, actively seeking to confront them. He took the assaultive action. It's hard to argue self defense in that case (although possible). If he'd sat in his house with a loaded gun pointed at the doors and windows, he would have been legally ok.
He should have gone inside and called the police. If they tried to follow him to assault him or his family (again, based on his belief of imminent danger), then put some new holes in them.
Despite what you may have heard about American gun laws, one is not allowed to defend one's property with the threat of deadly force.
Good explanation. Thanks.
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Curval,
Tarmac covered it pretty well.
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Here's something to remember when talking to ex-cons or current inmates.
None of them did it or it was just a misunderstanding. If you want to know the whole story find out the exact charges and get a transcript of his trial.
I can guess at what you will say, "Well I have known this guy for sometime and he's not the type". Well they all say that. Ask the guy who stole your scooter and I'll bet he'll say, "It wasn't me" or "I thought it was mine".
I don't think anyone here can comment on whether or not his sentence was harsh unless full accurate details are provided.
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It sucks for him, regardless. I wish he'd been better educated on the gun laws, had a more level head, or whatever would have avoided the whole mess.
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Batz..I agree completely, which is why I mentioned I only got one side of the story.
I was just floored. He is a really nice guy, brilliant with computers and had a relatively successful consulting business in the IT field.
Now his life is pooched.
I'm not here to defend his actions...more to have the explanation as provided by Tarmac.
Seems that the US is pretty damn harsh on their gun laws afterall.
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Originally posted by Batz
Here's something to remember when talking to ex-cons or current inmates.
None of them did it or it was just a misunderstanding. If you want to know the whole story find out the exact charges and get a transcript of his trial.
I can guess at what you will say, "Well I have known this guy for sometime and he's not the type". Well they all say that. Ask the guy who stole your scooter and I'll bet he'll say, "It wasn't me" or "I thought it was mine".
I don't think anyone here can comment on whether or not his sentence was harsh unless full accurate details are provided.
Yeah 3 yrs with no priors for holding a gun at your side? I guarantee there is something more to the story.
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Curval, no offence, but while I was having a chat with SOB in the AH MA a few nights ago in a big horde of Green, I got a surprise “checksix” call out of nowhere, and when I looked back I saw a blue plane coming down on me very quickly. Next thing I know, I was in half, and the kill message said “Curval Shot You Down” or whatever the message is.
You shat yourself so bad and got so excited, you could only post on the open channel, Blagagggasajshjas, or something like that. The courts seem similar.
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That was quite stupidly done IMO, although I don't think such severe sentence would been needed (prosecutor wanting 9 years for that!? :eek: )
Should of called the cops.. not like his property is going to rot in the five minutes because of the unwanted visitors.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
"If youre gonna be dumb enough to pull a gun on a man, you better be smart enough to pull the trigger."
Naaa, presence of a firearm stops a lot of crimes. However, pulling an unloaded gun is just stupid.
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Originally posted by Curval
Seems that the US is pretty damn harsh on their gun laws afterall.
In all those gun debates, I'm sure you remember hearing some gun owners say things like "we don't need more laws, we need to enforce the ones we have."
No offense, but your friend is a pretty good example of the law functioning as intended (based on the story you told).
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Originally posted by Creamo
You shat yourself so bad and got so excited, you could only post on the open channel, Blagagggasajshjas, or something similar. The courts seem similiar.
lol Creamo...actually I typed "SSSSLLLUUURRRPPP". I did not mention your name when I typed it nor did I mention it on these boards or to any of my squaddies.
But thanks for bringing it up.;)
Your point is well taken too.
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my guess is that there is MUCH more to the story. I am not versed on delawares gun laws but this sounds fishy.
I can not imagine this happening in even California if you are on your property and not threatening anyone. I also see no reason to have an unloaded gun.
There is no law that I know of in Califiornia or any western state that would not allow you to carry a gun on your property.
I know of felons on parole who were caught with a loaded gun in their vehicle who did not get any additional time added to their sentance for the firearm violation... certainly they didn't get 3 years.
Seems that your friends case would have been very high profile.
lazs
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Not suprised because it was in Delaware.
BTW, as I found out recently, while here in AZ it is illegal to use deadly force to protect property, in Texas (under certain circumstances) it is not.
However, as the facts have been presented here, this guy had no reason to go for his gun. It doesn't sound like he, anyone else or his property was in any danger.
And I also agree with Funked, I'm betting there's more to the story.
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All's good Curval. Were almost even. Calibrating the Saitek now.
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That ****ek could stay calibrated for what, 10 minutes?
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Just another example of what is wrong with this country. We're going in the toilet.
des
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He should of shot all of them and claimed they attacked him. They were probably scoping his property so they could rob it.
Thievin Bastiages!!
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(prosecutor wanting 9 years for that!? )
comming up on an election year. and the prosecutor probably has aspirations to a higher office. it doesn't matter what party he runs with, in todays political climate "tough on gun violence" doesn't look bad on the resume.
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so, ummm, who were the Verizon guys?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
That ****ek could stay calibrated for what, 10 minutes?
Get off the BBS and fly.
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Aaah! "The Peoples Republic of Delaware", that explains it. I'm sorry to hear about your friend. If you contact him, after he gets out, suggest he move to Virginia. A far more 'Civilized' state.
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Too bad about the Delaware thing. in Arizona if someone is on your property you can level your gun at them and order them off. OTOH you cannot shoot them., at least not for merely trespassing.
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Lol, I find it funny how whenever a state does anything remotely liberal, they immediately get called "The People's Republic of So-and-so."
But I still agree with it. :lol
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I wonder how up to date he was on his phone bill.
There's always more to stories like this than what you hear. I'm suprised he reacted that way to a verizon van parked out in front of his house. I'm suprised he'd think to grab a gun (unloaded especially) and threaten someone with it. And... I'm suprised he'd get 3 years if that's all he did.
MiniD
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Must be hard to keep up with state to state laws! why dont have the same laws for the whole country?
:confused:
A friend of mine was on a holiday with his girlfriend, when he got back from the holliday it turns out that he had a break in in his appartment,
A week later he gets the word that its one of his better friends that did the break in, he takes his car and go looking for him, he finds him, throws him in the back of the trunk and off too the "friends" apartment to get his stuff back (stereo, dvd player, tv etc) he parks outside, he pick his "friend" up from the trunk, but his "friends" girlfriend sees this from the appartment and calls the police.
He got six years in the slammer....
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Originally posted by Maniac
Must be hard to keep up with state to state laws! why dont have the same laws for the whole country?
:confused:
A friend of mine was on a holiday with his girlfriend, when he got back from the holliday it turns out that he had a break in in his appartment,
A week later he gets the word that its one of his better friends that did the break in, he takes his car and go looking for him, he finds him, throws him in the back of the trunk and off too the "friends" apartment to get his stuff back (stereo, dvd player, tv etc) he parks outside, he pick his "friend" up from the trunk, but his "friends" girlfriend sees this from the appartment and calls the police.
He got six years in the slammer....
Of course, If he shot a 7/11 clerk he would get about the same... how does that all figure out?
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Of course, If he shot a 7/11 clerk he would get about the same... how does that all figure out?
Ya, we all was devestaded by this sentance... He could have robbed a bank and got the same sentance...
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Originally posted by Mini D
I wonder how up to date he was on his phone bill.
There's always more to stories like this than what you hear. I'm suprised he reacted that way to a verizon van parked out in front of his house. I'm suprised he'd think to grab a gun (unloaded especially) and threaten someone with it. And... I'm suprised he'd get 3 years if that's all he did.
MiniD
Surpise!
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In Arizona you are allowed to fire warning shots at people that don't look "right" if they get near you.
I was at Steve's house for a party when I thought I heard a scratching sound at the back screen door. I instantly lept from my chair, dove to the ground and put 3 rounds through the door in less than 7 seconds. Steve had his gun out too and was covering me just like he does in AH.
When we investigated outside we found the culprit......a rustling plastic bag.
Needless to say we all laughed and drank a few more beers before firing celebratory shots at random into the electricity filled night sky.
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Umm, lets see did he feel immediately threatened physically? Sounds like a no.
Did they attempt to follow him inside? Sounds like a no.
Did he have ample oppotunity to call the police? Sounds like a yes.
Imagine you're a contracter for Verizon, you're trying to locate some buried cables. You're checking out a property, then the owner gets home. You try and explain what you're doing but he gets ****ty at you. You need to do your job because theres a major outage somewhere so you keep looking. Next thing the guy comes storming out of his house with a big bellybutton gun. What do you do?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Needless to say we all laughed and drank a few more beers before firing celebratory shots at random into the electricity filled night sky.
I can't wait to hear when someone gets a bullet in his head, dropping from the sky...
What goes up, goes down.
Like in Afganistan, during wedding celebration some genie decided to celebrate it by shooting his weapon straight at the sky and a bullet drilled into the husbands head..
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Umm, lets see did he feel immediately threatened physically? Sounds like a no.
Did they attempt to follow him inside? Sounds like a no.
Did he have ample oppotunity to call the police? Sounds like a yes.
Imagine you're a contracter for Verizon, you're trying to locate some buried cables. You're checking out a property, then the owner gets home. You try and explain what you're doing but he gets ****ty at you. You need to do your job because theres a major outage somewhere so you keep looking. Next thing the guy comes storming out of his house with a big bellybutton gun. What do you do?
Hey..you are probably right on the questions and answers, but the rest is pure supposition.
Sure I can imagine a major outage and a guy storming towards me with a big gun....I can imagine alot of stuff...are you suggesting this is how it happened? Maybe, it's just not the admittedly one sided story I heard.
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Curval, I remember a case nearly matching this few years ago. It made national news...I wonder if it could be the same case as your friend's.
I remember it was some utility company and the homeowner asked for ID and the ID did not match the company name. I dont remember the state, but it was the same deal almost exactly liked you said.
I would almost bet this is the same incident, as it sounds so familiar.
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Originally posted by lazs2
my guess is that there is MUCH more to the story. I am not versed on delawares gun laws but this sounds fishy.
I can not imagine this happening in even California if you are on your property and not threatening anyone. I also see no reason to have an unloaded gun.
There is no law that I know of in Califiornia or any western state that would not allow you to carry a gun on your property.
lazs
You're right Lazs, "not threatening anyone" being the key. If you walk out onto your front yard to investigate a disturbance you are permitted to posess a legally owned and registered firearm.
However, if you point that gun (or knife) it's brandishing a weapon, or assault depending on how they write you up.
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So, I can't run out onto my lawn yelling "Get off my ****ing property you ****ing ******s!" while swinging a noose with a "ghost" costume on?
What has this country come to?!
-SW
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Ya Nuke, when ya gonna replace that door?
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Originally posted by Steve
Ya Nuke, when ya gonna replace that door?
well, if i ever get outta Texas I'll buy you and Stacey dinner and a door :)
p.s. Texas is FLAT as a pancake.....I miss the mountains and scenery
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
So, I can't run out onto my lawn yelling "Get off my ****ing property you ****ing ******s!" while swinging a noose with a "ghost" costume on?
Yes.....yes you can.....for a few minutes....before the nice young men in their clean white coats come...to tak you away.....ha ha.
BTW....please explain the reasoning behind brandishing an unloaded gun? Where I was trained, you dont take a gun out in a non training situation unless you plan on using it...and you dont plan on using a gun unless you plan on killing someone. By bringing our an unloaded weapon.....all you do is invite all other involved parties to shoot you in self defense.....and there you stand...proud...with your unloaded weapon.
If they are a threat....the gun should be loaded...I mean...an unloaded gun isnt much help.
If they are not a threat....ummm...well....why the gun....did it make him feel good or something?
This sad story is a perfect example of stupidity and ego meeting head to head. Let this be a lesson...do not even think about brandishing your weapon unless you indend on killing someone. Loud noises andelling are for scaring people....guns are for killing those who pose a legitimate threat....who are too stupid to be scared.
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Originally posted by Fishu
I can't wait to hear when someone gets a bullet in his head, dropping from the sky...
What goes up, goes down.
Like in Afganistan, during wedding celebration some genie decided to celebrate it by shooting his weapon straight at the sky and a bullet drilled into the husbands head..
A shot fired into the air will be "spent" and just tumble back down at its terminal velocity. It will be tha same as if you drooped it from a building and will not be lethal unless its a 20mm round with some weight to it. It is a myth that bullets fall to earth and kill, most of the rounds that kill from firing a weapon into the air are from an auto weapon and the user hits some around him or in a building due to not having control of the recoiling weapon.
I submit that you can not be killed by a small caliber weapon round falling to earth.
a bruise maybe
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What part of DE? North or Slower Lower?
If it's slower lower I am sad. Any place that pioneers something as cool as Punkin Chunkin should have more sense when it comes to a man's rights as a gunowner.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Must be hard to keep up with state to state laws! why dont have the same laws for the whole country?
:confused:
That's the whole point behind the United States of America. I can't think of a better way to keep the government representative than by having separate laws for many small jurisdictions. Hell, it's bad enough that Californians get to vote for Federal laws that affect me halfway across the country.
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While it is true that many times a bullet that falls back to earth and hits someone it doesnt kill them (small caliber of course)...it is by no means a myth. Many people are killed each years are small arms fire returns from being fired in the air.
Keep in mind that while the terminal velocity of a small caliber bullet is ~300 f.p.s. and that isnt TYPICALY enough to kill, it is enough to kill at times. Not a ure thing...not even an overly likely thing...but much more than an insignificant chance.
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Originally posted by ALF
While it is true that many times a bullet that falls back to earth and hits someone it doesnt kill them (small caliber of course)...it is by no means a myth. Many people are killed each years are small arms fire returns from being fired in the air.
Keep in mind that while the terminal velocity of a small caliber bullet is ~300 f.p.s. and that isnt TYPICALY enough to kill, it is enough to kill at times. Not a ure thing...not even an overly likely thing...but much more than an insignificant chance.
...Which is why we should expand our helmet laws to make it illegal to be in public without a helmet. Who knows when a stray round, a meteror, or a frog won't smack us in the head, killing us?
Think about the humanity, gentlemen...Think about the humanity.
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Are you sure about that terminal Velocity? 300 fps is only about 200mph--which is just slightly more than a human can achieve while assuming the most aerodynamic diving position (arms folded back, going head down). Lead, whether jacketed with steel or not, is way more dense than human flesh, and far more aerodynamic in shape.
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If you're that concerned then wear a helmet- and if you're concerned over the plight of the Common Man then urge your legislators to expand helmet laws to pedestrians. It's for our own good, right?
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Originally posted by Curval
Surpise!
And your response isn't?
There's alot of things that simply don't make much sense with the story. What do you want from it? An explanation how he could go to jail? Some explanations provided shed some light on it in regards to being threatening, but they really don't account for a 3 year jail sentance. That's a felony crime.
Something else was going on there. Considerably more than what people are forming suppositions on.
Will someone go to prison for 3 years for trying to scare someone off of their property with a gun? Maybe, maybe not. The things that make the difference are the things that are not included in what your friend told you. If some verizon technicians show up in your yard for no reason, you most likely can question them and ask them to leave, even while carrying a gun. If some verizon guys show up to disconnect your cable and you get pissed about it... well... things are considered alot differently.
It's just not cut and dry. The little things do matter. They matter a great deal.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Scootter
A shot fired into the air will be "spent" and just tumble back down at its terminal velocity. It will be tha same as if you drooped it from a building and will not be lethal unless its a 20mm round with some weight to it. It is a myth that bullets fall to earth and kill, most of the rounds that kill from firing a weapon into the air are from an auto weapon and the user hits some around him or in a building due to not having control of the recoiling weapon.
I submit that you can not be killed by a small caliber weapon round falling to earth.
a bruise maybe
Somehow I doubt it'd be just a bruise... anyhow, I'd hate to be hit by a bullet dropping from the sky, because some moron was shooting up in the air just for the fun of it.
Even by a bruise, the person would be quite damn pissed off and would most likely call the police, which wouldn't be good for the shooter...
On yearly basis alot of people are getting wounded by this and some are killed.
If you're using 9mm (~115 grams) or kalashnikov 7.62mm (~122 grams, whole bullet I believe, reduce some 7-15 grams from the charge), it's almost the same when it comes down.
It'll hurt... and if it hits well, you're dead.
If this guy uses .45, then it needs even less velocity to do bad damage.
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Cut'n'Paste alert!!
Do a google on falling bullet deaths. Happens
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/border/4137.php
Since the adoption in Arizona of Shannon's Law 2 1/2 years ago, that means a Class 6 felony. The law was passed by the Legislature after the death of Shannon Smith, a Phoenix teenager killed by a falling bullet in June 1999.
On Jan. 1, 1997, a pregnant Tucson woman was struck in the abdomen by a falling bullet. Both she and her baby survived.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/965672/posts
Spc. James I. Lambert III, 22, of Raleigh, N.C. — assigned to the 1st Armored Division — was killed on July 31 in Baghdad when a stray bullet fired by a celebrating Iraqi struck him.
Lambert was standing outside around 7:30 p.m. when fate and the bullet suddenly hit him square in the head. He was evacuated to the 28th Combat Support Hospital where he later died of the wound, the Army reported.
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LOL Fishu is right on, there is a very well documented case in Arizona of a girl.. Shannon someting that died from a falling round. There is a law in AZ called "Shannon's law" regarding firing rounds off in urban area as a result. Also a streamlined object like a bullet will fall faster than the terminal velocity of say, a human. Now, if you have any say .45 rounds... hold a bullet in your hand.. then imagine it hitting you in the top of your head at only terminal velocity. Remember, terminal velocity is a variable.. differs for different objects.
I got this info off the internet:
The more compact and dense the object, the higher its terminal velocity will be
and this:
It will return to the ground at a speed of some 70 metres per second. This sounds quite low but, because of the predominance of cranial injuries, the proportion of deaths and serious injury as a proportion of the number of gunshot wounds is surprisingly high. It is typically some five times more than is observed in normal firing.
from this link: http://www.villman.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1087
And this:
Shannon's Law was named after Shannon Smith, a 14-year-old girl killed in her back yard in June 1999 by a bullet that fell from the sky. At that time, firing random shots in the air was only a misdemeanor. The law passed the state Legislature in July 2000.
link: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0103phxshootfolo03.html
I hope this helps explain how indeed a bullet falling from the sky can be quite fatal.
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Originally posted by Fishu
If you're using 9mm (~115 grams) or kalashnikov 7.62mm (~122 grams, whole bullet I believe, reduce some 7-15 grams from the charge), it's almost the same when it comes down.
It'll hurt... and if it hits well, you're dead.
If this guy uses .45, then it needs even less velocity to do bad damage.
Bullet weight is not in grams but in grains. I don't know the exact conversion but 115 grains is only a few grams. Can a gun expert give us the real measure pls?
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. Also a streamlined object like a bullet will fall faster than terminal velocity.
It cannot fall faster than its terminal velocity. Its terminal velocity is fixed by its aerodynamic properties. Like you say, different objects have individual terminal velocities. Different objects with the same mass may also have individual terminal velocities.
Still, it must count as the most unluckiest death in the world to buy the farm via a falling bullet.
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Dowding, you are absolutely correct. I meant to say the treminal velocity of a human.. as in a person parachuting... which is about 120 mph.
I'm tired, but caught my mistake.. even before you posted the glitch. :)
Sleepy.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Bullet weight is not in grams but in grains. I don't know the exact conversion but 115 grains is only a few grams. Can a gun expert give us the real measure pls?
Uh yeah.. you're right, I weren't paying too much attention on the spelling at the time.
Can see I haven't obeyed the normal sleeping times today...
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Nuke, if it was "a few years ago" it isn't the same case. I spoke to the guys wife and it looks like the sentance may get reduced to a year and a a half, which wil be up in November, so he hasn't been in a year yet. Assuming he has not caused any trouble while inside he may even get out sooner on parole.
MiniD, the whole story is made up, okay? You are right...nothing to read here, just move along.
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Hey Fishu I know the feeling!
Besides I did the same mistake a few years ago during a discussion with other shooters... my rear end still stings at the recollection ;)
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"...Which is why we should expand our helmet laws to make it illegal to be in public without a helmet. Who knows when a stray round, a meteror, or a frog won't smack us in the head, killing us? "
And you don't think finestein, boxer or your mom won't get around to this eventually? After all... if it saves just onme life.
a 250 grain bullet such as a 44 or 45 Colt is about half an ounce.
curval... I don't think you made it up.... I think your friend made most of it up. Like mini di... I don't know what your point is.
lazs
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No point...I had questions that were answered well, and with decency, by Tarmac. No accusations of people lying and no "surprises".
I'm sure my friend made all of it up, but I can't reach him currently except by snail mail to check out the details...the correctional facility does not allow any other form of communication.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Curval
... he noticed a Verizon van parked out of the front of his home and there were 2 or 3 guys wandering around his property. He went out and asked to see their IDs..which they had...but they were not Verizon IDs..something else. Anyway, he asked them to leave. They refused and started to get very threatening with them. ....
Why, just the other day a couple of buddies and me decided to have some fun during lunch so we jacked a company panel van and drove around a local neighborhood. We found some hardhats in the back of the van and there was a ladder strapped to the roof, so we stopped at a nice-looking house, put on the hard hats, and dragged the ladder around the yard, making sure to carve up the ChemLawn grass real good and trample all over the flower beds. When the guy came out to see what was going on, we told him "Just checking the lines, sir". He demanded to see our IDs, but we told him "IDs? We don't need no stinkin' IDs!" and just kept wandering around aimlessly. Then, he went inside and grabbed an elephant gun with a pistol grip. I mean, that thing was HUGE! So, fortunately for us I found some business cards laying on the dash of the van so I told him that those were our company IDs and that our names really were the same because we were brothers; you know, like how George Foreman named all his kids "George". But the guy wasn't buying it and he became really irritated and started shouting obscenities.
Right about then we noticed the neighbors looking around so we called the cops on the guy. When the cops showed up, we gave a quick statement about how the guy had a meth lab going in the kitchen and we got out of there.
I'm posting this on the Internet, so it must be true! :p
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No offence to Tarmac or anyone here but.... can someone print delawares laws on firearms on private property?
lazs
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Gofaster...I understand the attempt at humour, but this wasn't a post on the internet, it was a friend telling me the story over the phone BEFORE his court appearance in which he was convicted and sentanced.
Also, I've noticed an error in my first post:
"They refused and started to get very threatening with them. .... "
should read
They refused and started to get very threatening with him. ....
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Originally posted by Curval
Gofaster...I understand the attempt at humour, but this wasn't a post on the internet,...
No, no. you misunderstood. I'm posting my story on the Internet. ;)
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Imagine you're a contracter for Verizon, you're trying to locate some buried cables. You're checking out a property, then the owner gets home. You try and explain what you're doing but he gets ****ty at you. You need to do your job because theres a major outage somewhere so you keep looking. Next thing the guy comes storming out of his house with a big bellybutton gun. What do you do?
you get off his property, call into your HQ and tell them to get in contact with the property owner and work it out with him, or scedual a time when he will allow access to his property.
if I'm at work and my forman tells me to go onto someone elses property and the owner is there telling me to leave, I leave. he doesn't even need a gun.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Bullet weight is not in grams but in grains. I don't know the exact conversion but 115 grains is only a few grams. Can a gun expert give us the real measure pls?
I don't know jack about guns. But 1 gram is about 15.5 grains. So 115 grains is about 7.5 grams.
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Go here for weight and volume conversions:
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/weight
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Bullets go point first only when stabilized by the spinning effected on them by the rifling in the barrel, when they peter out they stop spinning and tumble. A tumbling bullet will not be very aerodynamic and will not fall with any great speed or energy. Or do you still think a penny droped off the Empire State Building if landing on edge will go through a car roof?
It takes 7000 gr. to make a pound so a 115gr bullet is fairly light.
Never say never, but show me proof of all this carnage from falling bullets. What’s next bird crap can render you unconscious?
Now firing a weapon up in the air is not the smartest thing to do but guys arrows are much deadlier and where are the laws for them?
(arrows always come down sharp end first)
more antigun stuff that’s all
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Scooter, you didn't read the posts. There is documented proof that people have died from falling bullets? Unless you are a person who refuses to admit when they are incorrect, I don't know what else you need. Did you not read the posts?
edit: I'm anything but anti-gun btw, I carry concealed and have a gun in all my vehicles (3) (no kids)
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Curval... take a pill.
Nobody said anything about lieing.
It's about details. "Someone goes out in a yard with their gun" is not a reason to go to prison for some time. Any supposition as to why that is will be vague at best.
There's some decent explanations under certain circumstances... but it's rare that those circumstances occur. That's why there is a jury that listens to the case and makes a judgement based on law.
I have a tendancy to say if you want to know why this person went to jail for three years, you should see if you can get ahold of the court transcript (if one is available). That will have something a little closer to a more complete set of facts or perspectives from both sides of the argument.
Asking here is going to simply get you oppinions based on incomplete sets of data that really may or may not be relevant.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Steve
Scooter, you didn't read the posts. There is documented proof that people have died from falling bullets? Unless you are a person who refuses to admit when they are incorrect, I don't know what else you need. Did you not read the posts?
edit: I'm anything but anti-gun btw, I carry concealed and have a gun in all my vehicles (3) (no kids)
This is from the sites listed as proof ...
Celebratory bullets fired by Iraqis into sky coming down on U.S. troops
Stars and Stripes ^ | European edition, Sunday, August 17, 2003 | Scott Schonauer
Posted on 08/17/2003 3:47:35 PM PDT by demlosers
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Army Spc. Christiansen Cory was talking with another soldier when he felt something smack his forearm.
“We were standing around and heard a pssssst,” he said. “It felt just like a big rock had been thrown at me.”
But when Cory looked down, he discovered it wasn’t a rock that hit him. At his feet was a bullet from a Kalashnikov rifle. It was still warm.
The round likely came from an Iraqi who fired it into the air in celebration of a wedding, the birth of a child, or, for nothing in particular.
Every day, sometimes several times an hour, an Iraqi somewhere in the capital is shooting his rifle into the sky because he is happy about something. It is Iraqis’ version of a party noisemaker.
The only problem is, what goes up must come down. And sometimes the bullets they fire into the air fall and hit people.
Cory, a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division, was lucky. The bullet left only a welt that disappeared in a few days.
But for another soldier, a similar incident proved deadly.
Spc. James I. Lambert III, 22, of Raleigh, N.C. — assigned to the 1st Armored Division — was killed on July 31 in Baghdad when a stray bullet fired by a celebrating Iraqi struck him.
Lambert was standing outside around 7:30 p.m. when fate and the bullet suddenly hit him square in the head. He was evacuated to the 28th Combat Support Hospital where he later died of the wound, the Army reported.
I would like to know what kind of round hit him, a .50BMG round weights 750 gr. not the kind of thing you see everyday. I spoke of shoulder and hand weapons the kind most likely see fired in the air for a party.
and from the other proof
On Jan. 1, 1997, a pregnant Tucson woman was struck in the abdomen by a falling bullet. Both she and her baby survived.
Please show me the all the deaths, I never claimed it would not hurt and I said never say never.
Yes I can read, please do the same
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In 1920 the U.S. Army Ordnance conducted a series of experiments to try and determine the velocity of falling bullets. The tests were performed from a platform in the middle of a lake near Miami, Florida. The platform was ten feet square and a thin sheet of armor plate was placed over the men firing the gun. The gun was held in a fixture that would allow the gun to be adjusted to bring the shots close to the platform. It was surmised that the sound of the falling bullets could be heard when they hit the water or the platform. They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds.
As a comparison, the .30 caliber bullet fired in a vacuum at 2,700 f.p.s. would rise nearly 21.5 miles and require 84 seconds to make the ascent and another 84 seconds to make its descent. It would return with the same velocity that it left the gun. This gives you some idea of what air resistance or drag does to a bullet in flight.
Out of the more than 500 shots fired from the test platform only 4 falling bullets struck the platform and one fell in the boat near the platform. One of the bullets striking the platform left a 1/16 inch deep mark in the soft pine board. The bullet struck base first.
Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150 gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a serious wound.
Many other experiments have been made to find the amount of air drag on a .30 caliber bullet at various velocities and it was found that the drag at 320 f.p.s. balances the weight of the .021 lb. (150 gr.) bullet and terminal velocity is achieved. For larger calibers the bullet terminal velocity is higher since the bullet weight is greater in relation to the diameter. Major Julian Hatcher in his book Hatcher’s Notebook estimates that a 12 inch shell weighing 1000 pounds and fired straight up would return with a speed of 1,300 to 1,400 feet per second and over 28 million foot pounds of striking energy.
13 posted on 08/17/2003 6:26:27 PM PDT by wwcj
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I don't remember anymore which case it was when Iraqis got 'quite' happy and shot in the air more than usual.
IIRC Some 3-5 people died and several were wounded by the *falling* bullets.
I'd hate to get wounded in any way by a falling bullet, shot by some *******.... I'd sure as hell would call the cops and get the guy arrested for some gun crime - so much for his gun collection!
I wouldn't underestimate the power of falling bullets.
Especially when people doesn't necessarily shoot *straight* up.
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I own firearms here in California and brandishing the weapon is in fact a chargeable offense. Also you have to show just cause for bringing the weapon out. Even if they had a bat or knife and were a decent distance away brandishing the weapon is still illegal. They weren't an immediate threat to your life.
It's rather odd because even if they were closer and seemed to be a threat and charged you with the weapon you could still be held accountable. This I'm not exactly sure of this but this is how it was explained to me. The means used to defend yourself cannot exceed the force being used. How they explained it was that a gun defending against a knife is use of extreme lethal force. Not sure how true that is though.
My opinion if someone was on my property and seemed suspicious I would probably access my firearms too, but holstered ofcourse. Only because thats how I was taught in the military. They taught us the "use of force pyramid" and how it pertains to each situation and how to try to deescalate situations.
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Originally posted by Scootter
more antigun stuff that’s all
More like anti-shooting-into-the-sky-like-a-retard stuff.
The skull ain't exactly the strongest thing in the world, a small fast object smacking it will cause more than a minor injury.
-SW
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Every new years in LA someone dies from a High Angle bullet.
We see it happening; physics to the contrary is just wrong. You shoot a gun in the air in an urban area, the bullet will come down.
oh and "I feared for my life" should be in a phrasebook handed to all gun owners.
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talked to the cops at work... "brandishing" a weapon within city limits is illegal even on your own property. You will be warned not to do so... if you are a real moron about it you could be charged with a misdomeaner.... maximum... The worst that could happen is a fine.
outside city limits there is no restriction to carrying on your own property.
Reckless driving will cost you more and hurt your record more.
lazs
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You have Delaware cops at your work in California?
My friend was clearly charged with either threatening or assault with a deadly weapon, not brandishing.
He got 3 years which may be reduced to 1.5 years. That is a fact.
I'm not going to get on the internet and do a pile of research to try and see if my friend is lying, nor am I going to request a transcript of his case to prove the same. I just don't need to do this. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't...I'll take him at his word.
I'm happy with the responses I got here, and I will find out the details in due course. I can't change what happened and fighting about it here is unproductive.
So...thanks, but I'm done.
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Nobody said he was lying curval...
Once again... it's just that there's more to a conviction like this than the story allows for. Especially for that length of jail sentance. If you're asking for an explanation of how it could happen, the only real answer would be "I don't know, there's not nearly enough there to explain it." That's why the discussion turned to such things as right of property laws and brandishing laws. There could be a wide variety of issues.
But given the conviction... Your friend pointed a weapon at someone (all guns are assumed loaded in the U.S.) and threatened them when there were definately other actions that could have been taken. That is illegal to do in many states.
MiniD
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180 fps is enough to penetrate human flesh (for a bullet size thingie)
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Originally posted by Angus
180 fps is enough to penetrate human flesh (for a bullet size thingie)
so can a BB
but I don't think it will kill many, unless you have a real soft head and no-one on this board (myself included) is in any danger:D
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Im betting that utuility company had an easement or right of way across the edge of his property, which is pretty standard. If thats the case, they have a right to come on that portion of the property for purposes reasonably related to maintaining their equipment. Which means they were within their rights to be there. I still find it hard to believe an assault conviction resulted when the gun was never pointed at them.
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curval said that they had no ID. Is brandishing a weapon within city limits a felony in delaware? Are we becoming women and brits?
lazs
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Don't drop the soap... :eek:
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I think this whole thing points out why we need handguns...
I have responsed to "intrusion" alarms while on standby and just put my walther ppk in my pocket. I keep my hand on it and keep my distance while finding out what is going on. Sometimes PG&E (power co) guys will be on the property and not have a co truck or proper ID. I tell them that I am sorry but they will have to leave.
If the guy would have had a handgun he could have avoided showing it until he felt threatened.... in which case... none of this woulda mattered..
Concealed carry is the answer to a polite society.
lazs
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Gun laws vary considerably from state to state. In Texas, it is legal to use deadly force on intruders
In Oklahoma, you can be arrested for having a loaded, concealed (pistol) weapon in a car, although rifles can be openly carried on a gunrack in your truck
In Kansas, remember the farmer whose house was continually being vandalized? The house was vacant, so he rigged a gun to shoot through the door if anyone opened it. I don't remember if the gun killed or just injured the vandal, but the farmer lost his farm in the resulting lawsuit.
curly
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Killing someone with a deadly trap should be a felony. I know that firearms laws vary from state to state but I would be interested in knowing what state if any has a felony penalty for brandishing a weapon on your own property. I would like to know what state asks for a 9 year sentance for brandishing on your own property or for a misdomeanor.
And you guys want to let women vote?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Killing someone with a deadly trap should be a felony. I know that firearms laws vary from state to state but I would be interested in knowing what state if any has a felony penalty for brandishing a weapon on your own property. I would like to know what state asks for a 9 year sentance for brandishing on your own property or for a misdomeanor.
And you guys want to let women vote?
lazs
Lazs, you remember the Kansas case? I don't believe the guy was criminally charged. He lost a large civil suit though.
curly
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Heard about it but don't recal the details.. the guy was wrong no doubt. I suppose it should be manslaughter.
lazs
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Originally posted by AKcurly
In Kansas, remember the farmer whose house was continually being vandalized? The house was vacant, so he rigged a gun to shoot through the door if anyone opened it. I don't remember if the gun killed or just injured the vandal, but the farmer lost his farm in the resulting lawsuit.
Sounds stupid, could been as well the cops coming through the door or someone else with the authority to do so...
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The trip-wire gun cases are discussed in every law school. They are illegal.
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Is there any difference if you have a rifle or a handgun? I mean would it have been legal for him to walk out with a rifle?
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Just a point here. I would think that not all rounds launched into the air are in fact going straight up then down. Quite a few would likely be launched at a much lower angle and wold contain considerably more energy on impact that one that went straight up. A high arc round could still be traveling at higher velocity than a vertical shot.