Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on January 28, 2004, 03:43:46 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3432531.stm
Wouldn't want to wish ill on anyone, but it would be ironic if one these fools contracted Alzheimer's in their later years. I simply love how the spokespeople, with not a single post-grad qualification or experience in the field, deem a whole science to be 'meaningless'.
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I see nothing wrong with a torture/death lab for some of the smartest animals in the world.
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What exactly is the cost of animal research? So some monkeys die, big deal. The gains in science far out weigh the loss in the animal kingdom. Unless of course the programm is too expensive or something. I dont know Im just guessing. Better stop before I piss off PETA and they come get me.
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The security costs for keeping out the animal rights heroes were deemed prohibitive.
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Alzheimer's wrecks families. It's worth the death of some monkies to eradicate it, and I fail to see how any other position can be justified.
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Wait a few years and a computer program will be able to figure it out. Just like the cancer-cure/smallpox program.
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Yeah, silly me, I forgot about the cure for cancer announcement. Wasn't it hidden on page 56 of 'Nature'?
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Why don't they just do as everyone else does... relocate their labs to somewhere in eastern europe? No one's going to b*tch over there...
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Dont be surprised if you do see some cures for cancer in Nature. My University got a multi-million dollar grant for figuring out a way to treat a certain type of cancer with a plant hormone.
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Simple solution experiment on animal rights activists.
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Vegitarian medicine? Are you suggesting that there will be no animal testing in the development of any drug using that hormone?
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I believe in a decade Singapore will the world's foremost biotech recearch center and western recearch a pale resemblance or its current state.
When fundamental christians as well as the leftists of the western world slam down on the recearch in the most important areas - genetics, the Singapore government declared a hands-off zone. Stem sells, embrio, cloning, animal - nobody cares or gives a damn. Already quite a few prominent US and british researchers moved there to work on the projects that are impossible to conduct here. If it continues for a few years, they will have a solid research industry that will be impossible to dislodge.
And to speak realistically, once they come out with some treatment for degenerative desease or a recipes for gene-manipulation to create a designer babies, the westerners will eagerly buy them. They would not care whether the research was done on one of the stem cell lines not approved by Bush or a tortured monkey, etc.
miko
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Eventually babies will be manufactured with perfect abilities. And i dont see anything wrong with that, why should babies inherit their parents weaknesses and possible fatal gene combinations?
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And what if there was some unexpected genetic throwback that suddenly activated 50 generations down the line? Backed into a genetic cul-de-sac the human race would come to an abrupt halt.
I'm for cautious development under the scrutiny of the public eye, with people doing overt, good, science.
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Pro vice-chancellor at Cambridge University, Professor Tony Minson, said the project would have been financially unviable even without the protesters, because of numerous delays and rising costs.
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The Singaporeans have always been big on genes.
I remember when Lee Kwan Yew (the Prime Minister for many years until very recently) made some sort of crazy programme which involved financial incentives for post-grads to marry each other and have children on the grounds that that the kids would be cleverer than the norm.
Ravs.
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Originally posted by ravells
I remember when Lee Kwan Yew (the Prime Minister for many years until very recently) made some sort of crazy programme which involved financial incentives for post-grads to marry each other and have children on the grounds that that the kids would be cleverer than the norm.
and six fingers and toes...and 1 out of every 3 is a retard.
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Simple solution to the problem:
Build the center in the middle of the nearest army base :D
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ravells: ...made some sort of crazy programme which involved financial incentives for post-grads to marry each other and have children on the grounds that that the kids would be cleverer than the norm.
What's so crazy about it? Post grads are marrying each other anyway and their kids are cleverer than "the norm". The only issue is that they have later and fewer children per family than people of lesser intelligence and that exerts a dysgenic effect on the population.
That programme sounds more sane than giving financial incentives for school drop-outs not to marry each other but have children on the grounds... Err.. Hmm.. :confused:
miko
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Vegitarian medicine? Are you suggesting that there will be no animal testing in the development of any drug using that hormone?
Quit taking things to extremes. I told you about one case where cancer research didnt require animal testing. I have no idea from where you drew that conclusion.
Try to have some empathy for other creatures.
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empathy for other creatures ?
i ate cow last night. There was a chicked yesterday. Piggy ham... good stuff... then as I walked home, I was responsible for mass murdered of ants and other small crawling animals.
I took a shower and attempted genocide on all the bacteria on my body, I thought I heard their dying screems "WHY ???!!!" as they washed down the drain.
Then I did my laundry, detergent killed more microbes then there was casulties in all World Wars combined..
I think tonight I'll have sushi... talk about slaughter... tuna, salmon, red snapper, yellow tail, shrimp.... oh boy. Just call me Adolf !!!!
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Lol Miko!
After talking on the 'divorce' thread about the sanctity of marriage and how modern Americans are devaluing it, are you really advocating that financial incentives for marrying somebody of a particular class is a good thing???
The scheme is crazy because, as far as I know, there is no compelling evidence that the child of two post grads will be any more intelligent than the norm (however that is defined).
Ravs
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Why don't they just do as everyone else does... relocate their labs to somewhere in eastern europe? No one's going to b*tch over there...
Our beloved law-enforcement restricted narcosis usage in veterinary, because vets can't get drug licenses. So since December they operate pets only under immobilizing drugs.
Idiots. There is nothing worse then a fool with initiative.
This is what "animal rights" have to take care of.
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Eventually babies will be manufactured with perfect abilities. And i dont see anything wrong with that, why should babies inherit their parents weaknesses and possible fatal gene combinations?
Imperfection is inherent in Human Beings. That's what makes us human. I don't think we'll ever see the cloning of perfect babies. While it might sound appealing, these abominations wouldn't be human.
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I think it depends upon the degree of imperfection that you are talking about. Many embryos are aborted because they have some terrible congenital defect. Wouldn't it be a lot nicer if, for example, stem cell research made it possible for those embryos to be born without disabilities?
Ravs
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They need to crack down and start treating the animal and nature rights *******s like the terrorist they are.
It won't take very many times of the Anti terror teams raiding these *******s before they realise animal life is not the same as human.
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ravells: After talking on the 'divorce' thread about the sanctity of marriage and how modern Americans are devaluing it, are you really advocating that financial incentives for marrying somebody of a particular class is a good thing???
I am not advocating any redistributive scheme by a government.
But if I had to choose between subcidising the procreation of dumb and psychotic (both highly-inheritable traits) or intelligent and well-balanced, I know which one I would prefer to have my tax money spent for.
The scheme is crazy because, as far as I know, there is no compelling evidence that the child of two post grads will be any more intelligent than the norm (however that is defined).
There is a multitude of research and mountains of evidence indicating that intelligence is 60-80% inheritable. Two post-grads with measured intelligence of 130 IQ points will have children with an average intelligence of about 122, not 100.
And the children of those children will also have the average intelligence of about 122 because the statistical regression to the mean effect only works for one generation and the subsequent one establishes the new mean.
Considering that it should take about 105 IQ points to successfully graduate from a high school, about 115 IQ points to be able to enter a college and about 120 to go into graduate studies, we would certainly have noticed if children of the post-grads had an average IQ of 100 and half of them were barely able to finish the high school.
lasersailor184: Imperfection is inherent in Human Beings. That's what makes us human. I don't think we'll ever see the cloning of perfect babies.
You do not have to worry about that because the imperfection that is supposedely inherent in human beings is moral, not physical. The genetic manipulation only deals with physical improvements. It strives to bring healthy and intelligent babies but it never claims to do anything about their morality - except for reducing the inheritable trait of psychoticism which makes people more likely to be lazy and immoral.
The cloning will not make perfect babies in any sense unless you have a "perfect" person to behin with - since cloning is just making an exact copy.
miko
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Miko, Mengele (and some modern-day eugenics) would be proud of you...
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Imperfection is inherent in Human Beings. That's what makes us human. I don't think we'll ever see the cloning of perfect babies. While it might sound appealing, these abominations wouldn't be human.
Our appearances would ofcourse be the same for very long time, since we know what kind of treatment "different" gets in our society. At first they would just disable the dangerous genes in the "products", but with growing knowledge they would start to optimise our internals. For example make certain joints or bones more stronger, maybe make muscles grow faster with little exercise etc.
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Miko said:
There is a multitude of research and mountains of evidence indicating that intelligence is 60-80% inheritable
First I've heard of it. I've always understood (albeit it was some years ago when i discussed this with some psychologist friends) the results were inconclusive because there were so many other variables (such as high IQ parents having better jobs and therefore being able to give their children a better start).
Do you have any sources for this information? I'd be curious to read about it.
Thanks
Ravs
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Isn't that how Heinlein created Lazarus Long?
:aok
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2bighorn: Miko, Mengele (and some modern-day eugenics) would be proud of you...
Eugenics is a state policy of trying to improve the population's genepool. As a libertarian I am flatly opposed any state actions besides ensuring people's safety and security of property.
If you think that considering intelligence of a prospective mate due to desire to have smarter children or subcidising an intelligent couple (as long as it is voluntary) is equivalent to torturing innocent people, your thinking is really screwed up.
Or do you think I am dangerous for just believing the clear statistics gathered by hundreds of studies that intelligence is inheritable? How fascist of you...
Anyway, Eugenics is not a german invention but as american as apple pie. Tens of thousands of people were involuntarily sterilised in US in 1920 and later and from US the practice spread to scandinavian countries and other.
Tuomio: For example make certain joints or bones more stronger, maybe make muscles grow faster with little exercise etc.
That is a facinating idea. In modern times when food is not scarce, there is no survival penalty for carrying extra muscle mass - or less fat - even if it is unused and requires some increase in caloric intake.
Sure, we can all face a famine where people without energy reserves would starve first. But instead of carrying extra 20 pounds of fat with weak muscles, one can use the extra muscle mass to carry around 30 pounds of nutritious food in a backpack. Unlike body fat, it can be dropped escaping up a tree or offered to someone - sparing him the need to eat you. :)
ravells: First I've heard of it. I've always understood (albeit it was some years ago when i discussed this with some psychologist friends) the results were inconclusive because there were so many other variables
That theme is so non-politically correct that I myself stumbled onto it few years ago while doing research on the origin and operation of various evils of modern times. It was just one more book that had place reserved next to "The Prince", "Mein Kamph", "Das Kapital" and "The General Theory" on my "bad guys" bookshelf. :)
The infamous "Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray is a must read for either suppoorter or opponent of "nature vs. nurture" argument. It has a good general overview of the fundamentals and discusses several studies including massive NLSY, but being a social text, it mostly uses as a given the underlying science covered in more detail in books like Jencen's "The g Factor" - which is a real explanation of why and how the intelligence is inherited. The underlying biology, the tests that do not involve concious decision making - and thus are not subject to culturl bias, the explanation of math involved, etc.
Lynn's "Eugenics: A Reassessment (Human Evolution, Behavior, and Intelligence)" and "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" cover a lot of material and contain a comprehensive bibliographies.
Lynn is a proponent of state-conducted Eugenics which is anathema to all freedom-minded people but the validity of his science is not affected by his atrocious political views.
With those few names you can discover a whole lot of stuff on the net published as articles, interviews and excrepts, since the books are quite expensive except "The Bell Curve" which is a bestseller and should sell for about $12.
Of course one you check the industry journals of evolutionary psycholohy and biology and genetics, etc., the picture there is diametrally opposite to the one painted by the mass media. Few scientists wish to ruin their careers coming publicly as Murray (Herrnstein was dying anyway) and Jensen, but in trade journals that no outsiders read, they are quite explicit.
miko
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MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINS!!!
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If testing on animals will help my grandchildren one day, then bring it on. Animal activists can kiss my ass. We humans didn't get to the top of the food chain to eat grass, damnit.
We can't live without animal products. Leather is a popular material, and beef is a great meal.
Screw PETA...I'll take mustard on my ham and Swiss, please.
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texace: We can't live without animal products. Leather is a popular material, and beef is a great meal.
I would be willing to pay extra few cents a pound to have the animal I eat slaughtered humanely. I am sure most would agree with me.
miko
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(http://awgn.antifork.org/pic/misc/brains.jpg)
Oh, oops..sorry...
(http://www.ucht.n-i.nhs.uk/ASU/brains.gif)
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Originally posted by miko2d
texace: We can't live without animal products. Leather is a popular material, and beef is a great meal.
I would be willing to pay extra few cents a pound to have the animal I eat slaughtered humanely. I am sure most would agree with me.
miko
I do..my "New York" friend.
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I never said anything amout inhumane slaughter. I do agree with humane slaughter.
But, at the same time, I do not like having the same crap shoved down my throat by PETA. I considered them a whacked-out group before, and after the "Fur Is Murder" flyer incident I now laugh at them whole-heartedly.
I'm all for humane slaughter...I never said anything about it. :D
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Originally posted by fd ski
empathy for other creatures ?
i ate cow last night. There was a chicked yesterday. Piggy ham... good stuff... then as I walked home, I was responsible for mass murdered of ants and other small crawling animals.
I took a shower and attempted genocide on all the bacteria on my body, I thought I heard their dying screems "WHY ???!!!" as they washed down the drain.
Then I did my laundry, detergent killed more microbes then there was casulties in all World Wars combined..
I think tonight I'll have sushi... talk about slaughter... tuna, salmon, red snapper, yellow tail, shrimp.... oh boy. Just call me Adolf !!!!
Amen brother. :)
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Seconded, Funked. :aok
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How can you learn anything about sick human brains from studying a healthy animal brain? Seems to me you'd want to study the sick human brains to see what's wrong. I believe that's the current path for Alzheimer's research and the discovery that there's an increased amount of a certain protein in key areas of an Alzheimer's victim's brain.
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The animal brains differ from the human ones not as much in brain chemistry as in the organisation. So a deseases that are caused by disruptions of brain chemistry can be studied on the animal brains easily. Probably not allof them but many.
They did a lot of heart-transplants on dogs before they did it first on a human.
miko