Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Mister Fork on January 28, 2004, 03:12:14 PM
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Britain, June 1942
Operation SeaLion is on the backburner but the idea that England is available has Hitler thinking about the possibility. Churchill is finally getting the support he needs from the Americans with the arrival of medium bomber squadrons. JG2 has a visiting delegation of Italian C.202 fighters to assist in their training. The German lion may be unleased yet... an perhaps capture that pesky Typhoon for their own use...
Map: Battle of Britian
Dar: Historical
Fuel: 1.2
AAA: .7
Tower & Sector: 2000ft with full friendly
America and England
A-20G
B-26
C-47
Boston
Hurricane IIC&D
Spitfire V
Typhoon* (limited to a single field on the east coast as a new aircraft 6-42)
M Series
Panzer
Germany & Italy
Bf 109F-4
Bf 109G-2
Bf 110G-2
Bf 110C-4
Stuka
Ju-88A-4
Ju-52 (-47)
M Series
Panzer
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Add the 190a5 :p
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
JG2 has a visiting delegation of Italian C.202 fighters to assist in their training.
...er...where are they?
F4s and G2s v. Spit Vs. Could be interesting.
- oldman
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the PTo boys r gonna b acryin :aok
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Originally posted by Eagler
the PTo boys r gonna b acryin :aok
Why? What's different? :D :aok :lol :eek: :aok :rofl :D
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Originally posted by Eagler
the PTo boys r gonna b acryin :aok
Not for long, buddy! :rofl
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Its nice to see the Typhoon in the RAFs stable before 1945 for once.
.
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Don't should be there Spit 9 not only 5 for game ballance?
109F overall better then Spit 5, But G2 is clearly outperforms it.
Actually G2 is faster and climbs better then Spit 9 too but at least it is closer.
Limited Typhoon will not really help.
Shouldn't be there at least one fast plane for RAF not only turnfighters - maybe P47D11 or something other for BnZ?
Maybe put Typhoon at more bases?
Add Boom & Zoomer figter for RAF plz ;)
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Originally posted by artik
Don't should be there Spit 9 not only 5 for game ballance?
109F overall better then Spit 5, But G2 is clearly outperforms it.
Actually G2 is faster and climbs better then Spit 9 too but at least it is closer.
Limited Typhoon will not really help.
Shouldn't be there at least one fast plane for RAF not only turnfighters - maybe P47D11 or something other for BnZ?
Maybe put Typhoon at more bases?
Add Boom & Zoomer figter for RAF plz ;)
If ya let the balance dog out of it's cage ,we'll end up with another MA type setup. Looks to me like Fork did his homework for this. Heck theres probably too many choices for both sides as it is. Balance is in the eye of the beholder anyway.
There were no P-47 groups in England in the summer of 42. In fact I don't think there were any P-38 groups in England at this time. Not that we have an early P-38 to put in anyway. If there was another FG besides the 4th FG in the UK , they were probably flying spits as well.
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Originally posted by artik
Don't should be there Spit 9 not only 5 for game ballance?
Spit IX would have been available only in the latter part of '42, in limited quantities, so following "normal" CT prcedure they'd have to be perked :)
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whenever there is a chance for more spitfires there is allways someone here to ask for it
gush spitdweebs:cool:
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Yeah! Where's the Spit I??????!!!!!!! :D
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I think it is funny that in recent past post the axis complain about having only one or two fighters to fight against four or five allied fighters...well, now this is thier map and plane set. Allies have the Spit V and Hurricane vs four axis planes. And, of course, the axis pilots can do the "running" this week. :rofl
oh wait, I guess the Typhoon will be used as soon as the axis guys capture bases so it can be in oldman's furballing distance from the fight:eek:
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You whine about everything
Count umm again
Hurricane IIC&D + 2 (the 2d sux but its a fighter)
Spitfire V + 1
Typhoon* + 1
To
Bf 109F-4 + 1
Bf 109G-2 + 1
Bf 110G-2 + 1
Bf 110C-4 + 1 (technically its a Bf 110C-4b Fighter-bomber)
Typhie is the fastest plane and has 4 hizookas.
The Hurri IIc and Spit 5 while slow can out fly any of the 2 109s.
Then the A20g will be flown as a fighter and check its top speed while your at it. The B26 is fast and defended well.
You piss and moan about everything and must suck if you can’t do well flying allied planes this set up. Overall it looks like fun to me.
I would suggest including the 190a5 as a sub for the a3 since their performance is so similar but its no big deal.
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"The Ki-61 and A6M5 while slow can out fly any of the 2, F4U-1 or F6F"....hmmm, my new favorite quote! :)
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Originally posted by LtMagee
And, of course, the axis pilots can do the "running" this week. :rofl
Why run when you can dive in and get wacked? :)
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GEEEZZZZ just give each side C47 only and he'll still complain.LOL:rofl
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How about the 190 A5 at the rear non-perked? Just a thought. Either way looks like fun Fork.
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Originally posted by simshell
whenever there is a chance for more spitfires there is allways someone here to ask for it
gush spitdweebs:cool:
Buddy read the original post and what I'm talking about.
The plane equivalent to Spit 5 is 109F not G2
if Typhoon is limited need a plane that can ballance the 109G2
I've asked for unlimited BnZ or Spit 9 that is closer to G2. Spit 5 is really outperformed by 109g2 thats all.
I do not fly Spit mostly but game ballance is more importance IMO.
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you want perfect balance... go the MA.
nothing says you can't bnz witha spit5.
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2xHizookas on the Spitfires are alone are worth more than two G-2s.
Start from a co-alt situation, and a mistake for 2 seconds will kill a F-4 instantly. Sure it's fast, and sure it can outaccelerate a SpitV. But that's only if the Spit pilot so much sucks in gunnery that can't land a single hit until the F-4 accelerates from about 300 yards to outside 600 yards - and even still, occasionally a sniping shot will knock out something from 800yards.
On the other hand, mess up in a SpitV and it can just start turning in one direction until the cavalry arrives. Couple that with the horrible single MG151/20s, and more often than not a messy Spit will manage to kill at least one bad guy, before he goes down, however he may suck. When the speed difference is within manageable limits, even a small advantage in turning is of incredible worth. Practically the best turner in the game besides the Zeros and Hurricanes, and a SpitV is a killer.
AH SpitV will dive and stick with a F-4, G-2, even a 190A-5 unless the dive altitude is large enough. If you have less than 5000ft to dive you won't be able to pull away from a SpitV.
The SpitV is about 30~33mph slower than the F-4 and 40~43mph slower than the G-2. The difference in speed between a SpitV and a G-2 at altitudes under 15k, is about the same as between a Spit9 and P-51D. Remember what happens in the MA: the P-51D, a plane that dives like hellfire, still gets often caught by a Spit9 in the MA if he isn't already 400mph+, or has too low an altitude to dive.
Only a shallow, steady, long dive can allow a plane to pull away from any Spitfire.
Frankly, put two pilots of simular skill level fighting against each other and I'm willing to bet on the side that chooses the SpitV wins almost every engagement, if the planes start at equal terms. Or at least, push the F-4 into some deep shi* until it miraculously pulls away and heads back home.
The only consistent, and highly successful method of gaining a critical advantage over the SpitV when met in a coalt situation, in a F-4, that I can think of, is by dragging the SpitV to the deck, and then starting a very very long and boring climb up again to build altitude advantage - I'm not a good pilot, but I've been using 109s for almost two years in AH, and still that's the only 'standard' and 'safe' way!
The two planes are well matched, but not everybody is as familiar with the 109s as the Spits. Learning to utilize advantages which does not immediately translates itself to maneuvering/tactical advantage, clearly needs quite some experience.
Compared to that, the A6Ms and Corsairs are a different matter - even a mere 2000ft dive will allow a bad Corsair/Hellcat pilot to pull away outside 600~700 yards. AH Zeros stay solid up to too high speeds, which makes it difficult for Corsairs or Hellcat pilots to turn the tables, but at least it's not gonna get caught - it's 60 miles faster than the Zero at almost all altitudes, nearly 70~80mph faster than the Zero by WEP figures. Heck, even the Bf109G-10 has troubles catching the F4U-1/1D/1C when it starts diving and running away.
Ki-61 is about the bare minimum that holds enough speed, has good guns, and can dive good enough, that allows people to have a real chance against a Corsair or a Hellcat(which the latter, out performs the Ki-61 in everything). The speed difference between a Corsair and a Ki-61 is about 50mph.
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The G-2 is indeed, and clearly an overmatch. But really guys :rolleyes:, it's NOTHING like what the Axis(especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically.
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It looks like it'll be a fun setup for both sides - let's not try to ruin the fun.
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I remember 1948 setup of 109g6 vs Spit5
I have flown with 3x20mm and it is known that 109g2 has better perfomance then g6.
I'm not the best pilot in AH. But it was really clear for me that 109 clearly outperforms Spit V.
It is felt mostly in climb raitio. I clould almost allways be higher then Spit, I could easily outrun and outclimb it. I had 9min of WEP vs 5 min. I had 3xMG151/20mm that not worster then 2xHispano guns. Compression speeds were quite close (and don't tell me stories how Spit 5 can outdive 190A5 at high speed 190 plays with SPit like a cat with a mouse) Only disadvantage I had is turn raito, but flying smart it will not be a problem.
I really flet that I can be allmost safe flying 109 and make my kills. (If not C205 was that was much harder target)
I would suggest add P-47D11 or to make Typhoon unlimited - or very lightly limited probably with 2 perks or make it aviavable over England only thus if fornt will move less Typhoons will be avialable. Probably it is better then bring "spit dweebs" from MA.
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"it's NOTHING like what the Axis (especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically."
Oh really, what setup was that?
"2xHizookas on the Spitfires are alone are worth more than two G-2s."
Thats a baseless claim (despite being such a catchy phrase) as is the claim that the MG151/20 somehow doesnt work. Worth two how?
As for the rest of it, hey, if you want to furball in the 109 go ahead, but dont say the two are equal because you choose bad tactics in the 109. Reminds me of the MC202 vs P-40E posts "the P-40 has six fifties" as if that makes all the difference.
Its fair to compare when you assume both fighters are flown properly, to their strengths. A Sopwith Camel can defeat a 190D-9 under some circumstances I guess, but im not sure thats evidence of anything meaningfull.
*Has zip to do with the setup, just responding to above posts*
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But really guys , it's NOTHING like what the Axis(especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically.
Im glad this was brought to light. I think its about time CT staffers add the N1K to PAC set ups that have the Hellcat and Corsair.
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Originally posted by Slash27
But really guys , it's NOTHING like what the Axis(especially Japanese) planes have to face regularly and typically.
Im glad this was brought to light. I think its about time CT staffers add the N1K to PAC set ups that have the Hellcat and Corsair.
:D :lol :rofl :aok
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Amen Slash....lets end the insanity.
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Oh really, what setup was that?
Setups with Corsairs, Hellcats, and FM-2 against the A6M5 and the Ki-61?
Or how about just any clandestine, typical setup inside any CT period?
* I don't think I've ever rode any conventional prop that the Axis can muster that outruns a P-51D or a Tempest in a late '44~'45 timeline.
* Or a P-51B in '43 timeline, and the P-47D-11 in that same time line.
* Any Axis plane outrun the La-7 in the most recent Hungary setup?(Well yeah, D-9s and G-10s outrun the VVS over 15k..but..)
* Now, what outruns the Typhoon in this setup sugested by Fork?
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Yes, I am very aware, that the speed advantage alone doesn't mean anything. However, a combination of certain planes which are available to one side, but unavailable to other side, does mean something. And that, is the source of the 'unbalanced' complaints.
Example:
*In a late '44 ETO setup: A G-10 or a D-9 may be set up against a very interesting matchup with a P-47D or a 51D, but add in the RAF Spitfire9, and the Luftwaffe is immediately is pressed into a very timid defensive. The 51s chase down everything, and once the plane is caught the Spit9 deals the death blow.
A coalt fight against a 51D, one can manage. But if even a single Spit9 enters the combat area and the 109 or the 190 is dead.
*A Ki-61 or a N1K2 may hold a good chance in dealing against Corsairs and Hellcats, but throw in a force of FM-2s in that combo. and again, for the Axis the tactical limitations immediately becomes clear.
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No single plane in the game posesses all the "uber qualities" of out turning, out running, out accelerating, out rolling and etc etc..
However, a "mix" of planes that combine the planes that are best in at least one category, assembles a "uber combo". Especially, when the combo of speed and turn immediately manifests itself on a tactical level. Would a combo of good rolls and climbing be as much as worthy? I think not.
So, in how many cases, did the Axis posess the turn+speed combo? How about try naming a single setup which the Allies DIDN'T have the speed+turn combo?
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The most advantageous setup for the Axis, in terms of A2A combat, that I've ever seen, was Darwin. That's the only case where I remember the Allies not having the speed+turn combo with them. (Can anyone name any other setup?) The single Axis type of A6M2 totally outperformed one US P-40, and very well matched one RAF SpitI. And still, in the setup, Spitfires were the faster. The Axis didn't have any 'combo'. The Darwin felt so advantageous to the Axis because there hardly was any advantage to any side at all. That really says a lot.
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The Allied "mix" is never, ever missing anything. It always stays the most perfect combo there can be.
Admit that fact, mate.
Ofcourse, this isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone else's fault - it's only natural, since the history went that way: two Axis nations against an alliance of all the nations that had the capability to provide advanced planes.
Nor is it anything a reason to belittle the wonderful and skilled Allied pilots in the CT. Things just turned out that way - I'm sure most of the dedicated Allied pilots would just as much stay Allied, even if things were reversed.
Also, I can understand the reason why you're so frustrated with this. Sometimes Axis pilots who are as much equally frustrated of fighting a combo of the best performers, go berserk and decide to pick on Allied pilots out of rivalry and steam.
However, when the can of worms is opened and facts start flying, some things are just undeniable. Advantage in turning is the first immediately applicable tactical advantage in combat. Advantage in speed is the second.
Allied guys have had both on their side, for a very very long time. Care to deny that fact?
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So the point of this rambling, is seeing people complain about a G-2, when they even have a '44 version of the Typhoon on their side, makes the other side laugh.
Look at the combinations again:
Allied: turn, firepower, speed, ordnance
Axis: climb, roll, acceleration
How would anyone complain with that?
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well said.
as a average pilot that always flys axis, the only time i feel any kind of equipment parity is early PAC or Mediterraenian scenarios.
this past hungary scenario was an especially frustrating week of fruitlessly chasing or trying to shake mechanically superior a/c.
that's just the historical facts of life tho, combined with the availible plane set. nothing to be done there.
but it is amusing to still see the allied flyers complain.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Look at the combinations again:
Allied: turn, firepower, speed, ordnance
Axis: climb, roll, acceleration
How would anyone complain with that?
This setup is nicely summarized there.
Mostly it comes down to tactics. Fly with your squad, so everyone should know what to do, and you should be able to engage any enemies you come across, whether you're flying for the Allied or for the Axis. It requires only a bit of planning and coordination. And don't go flying alone. Or, if you do (like most of us do :)) be aware of the strenghts and weaknesses of the opposing plane(s)...
Sorry, I don't mean to tell anyone how to fly since I suck anyway, no matter what I'm flying or who I'm flying with. :D
But this setup is pretty balanced, as have been the others (at least in my opinion) lately in the CT.
Just my opinion or 2 cents. You can whine if you want to. :)
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Now we are back to the question...Historical or "fair":confused:
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I like the setup like it is, a new BoB, hooray!
But then again I am an idiot.
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Hungary was miserable, every plane but the G10 was utterly outclassed by the Lala's and Yak-9U's. I give Hungary an F.
This one would be ideal if the Tiffie was gone. Also, why do the Brits have the A20 and B26? Shouldn't they only have the Boston?
The setup could be somewhat evened if the 190A5/A8 was added as a sub for the A3, afterall isnt our Tiffie a later version than the era we are in?
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Originally posted by Grits
Hungary was miserable, every plane but the G10 was utterly outclassed by the Lala's and Yak-9U's. I give Hungary an F.
Actually If you fly 109G-10 and 190D-9 you can beat all Lavochkins and Yaks.
Yes if you take 109g2 and expect to outrun La7 you will not. If VVS uses most modern plane you should use them too to win.
I flew couple of times for axis in Hungary setup and have to tell I feel much better in cocpit of 109G10 then in cocpit of La7 or Yak.
Most important perfomance of 109G10 over La7 and Yak is Suprior climb raito, surpior speed over 10k (even with gondolas), and 9 min of WEP.
This combination actually gives you allmost allways E advantage over VVS planes. It takes 2.5 minutes to get to 10k from the deck. At this alt La7 loose most of advantage over 109. Only thing you have to do in 109 is roll climb with WEP duaring 3 minutes (you will still have 5 min WEP for combat if you will enter directly) and you outperform La7 in all.
So to all axis players - you have great planes - use them smart and all ok. But if you going to fly G2 on the deck and tell 109 outperformed by Yak and La7 - it is true - outperformed.
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Originally posted by Grits
Hungary was miserable, every plane but the G10 was utterly outclassed by the Lala's and Yak-9U's. I give Hungary an F.
Don't sell the 109F short, Gritz.
9 Kills of La-5FN
1 Deaths by La-5FN
16 Kills of La-7
5 Deaths by La-7
2 Kills of Yak-9T
0 Deaths by Yak-9T
8 Kills of Yak-9U
4 Deaths by Yak-9U
And I don't particularly fancy German iron.
:D
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Setups with Corsairs, Hellcats, and FM-2 against the A6M5 and the Ki-61?
When was this set up ran?
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I think the FM2 was there also.....and the NIK1
then they wined about the FM2 being too Uber.....
But then I could be wrong??:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by artik
But if you going to fly G2 on the deck and tell 109 outperformed by Yak and La7 - it is true - outperformed.
You are right, but the catch is, sooner or later you must come down to where the enema is (5k and under) or you cant kill them. How do you beat 5 Lala's and 5 Yaks in 6 G10's? Maybe you can, I cant.
Word on the street is Arlo said...
Don't sell the 109F short, Gritz.
I dont, and I got kills in it an several other (A5, G10) LW aircraft, but in Hungary (even more so than normal for me) it was a one way trip to a gang pileon.
I still give Hungary (the planeset, not the map) an F. Map was really cool, planeset bit the big one.
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When was this set up ran?
Granted, not recently.
But I've been here since CT was first created. I remeber what the early days of PAC setups in the CT was like. The setup, did run. Even worse, there was a setup with A6M2s and 5s, against Hellcats and Corsairs.
Yes, it was the early days of CT before every setup was 'standardized' in terms of balance and playability.
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Besides, throw in a N1K2 in the mentioned setup and still things don't change. The point remains valid, I'm afraid.
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I thought Hungary was good.
Regardless of the La-7s, there were basically only two "types" of fighters in both sides, which were very simularly matched with no certain combination of tactical advantages horded to one side's planeset. Speed was about equal. Little bit of advantage in maneuverability to the VVS, but not so large as that cannot be covered by the LW machines.
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Imagine a USAAF vs LW setup. P-51s and P-47s vs Bf109s and Fw190Ds. Two sides, two plane types, closely matched.
And then, add in a Spit9 to the setup and what do you get?
It becomes a early~mid '44 setup with that.
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Now, regardless of history, in terms of game balance, that's exactly the same thing as adding in a N1K2 for the Axis planes on the recent Hungary setup.
I'm willing to bet a whole lot of people will spend the entire week whining about adding in the N1K2 is a destruction of balance.
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In terms of gameplay the only thing which justifies the uber variety of Allied planes is history. And the Axis pilots are willing to accept that. In that case, they'd expect no less from Allied pilots.
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Besides, throw in a N1K2 in the mentioned setup and still things don't change. The point remains valid, I'm afraid.
I guess if the N1Ks not shooting at you it does.
In terms of gameplay the only thing which justifies the uber variety of Allied planes is history. And the Axis pilots are willing to accept that. In that case, they'd expect no less from Allied pilots.
Can you show when or where the "Allied pilots" have said differently?
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Originally posted by artik
Actually If you fly 109G-10 and 190D-9 you can beat all Lavochkins and Yaks.
Yes if you take 109g2 and expect to outrun La7 you will not. If VVS uses most modern plane you should use them too to win.
I flew couple of times for axis in Hungary setup and have to tell I feel much better in cocpit of 109G10 then in cocpit of La7 or Yak.
Most important perfomance of 109G10 over La7 and Yak is Suprior climb raito, surpior speed over 10k (even with gondolas), and 9 min of WEP.
This combination actually gives you allmost allways E advantage over VVS planes. It takes 2.5 minutes to get to 10k from the deck. At this alt La7 loose most of advantage over 109. Only thing you have to do in 109 is roll climb with WEP duaring 3 minutes (you will still have 5 min WEP for combat if you will enter directly) and you outperform La7 in all.
So to all axis players - you have great planes - use them smart and all ok. But if you going to fly G2 on the deck and tell 109 outperformed by Yak and La7 - it is true - outperformed.
Good post. When I flew my G10 I felt in command of the fight and averaged maybe 5 kills per sortiedespite rather poor aim.
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"But I've been here since CT was first created. I remeber what the early days of PAC setups in the CT was like. The setup, did run. Even worse, there was a setup with A6M2s and 5s, against Hellcats and Corsairs."
Yeah, I've been around awhile too, I remember when trial memberships were a month long and the "BOB" map was all we had. There was no A6M2 then... what are you talking about??
Back then we didn't ***** about planesets or balance, we played and had fun... I wish it was like that now.
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"In terms of gameplay the only thing which justifies the uber variety of Allied planes is history. And the Axis pilots are willing to accept that. In that case, they'd expect no less from Allied pilots."
I would post a reply if I had any idea what the hell you were talking about.
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You'd understand when you see it is you who bend, not the spoon.
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lol
Confuse him with that eastern mysticism!!!
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"but add in the RAF Spitfire9, and the Luftwaffe is immediately is pressed into a very timid defensive"
"Imagine a USAAF vs LW setup. P-51s and P-47s vs Bf109s and Fw190Ds. Two sides, two plane types, closely matched.
And then, add in a Spit9 to the setup and what do you get?"
Seems I have found a translation after all, and its nothing new.
Can you say "hizooka" in Tibetan?