Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Blammo on January 31, 2004, 10:49:02 AM
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Here's the scenario:
Alt for both: ~ 12K
Equal E (with maybe a smidge more on the pony).
I initiated a near veritical (90 degree) dive to break the engagement. About 2 secs later the pony rolled over to follow me down. I was at full throttle and WEP. I assume so was the pony.
At first his gain was very slow and I thought that within a few seconds I would be able to pull away. Within two seconds on the dive he started gaining on me. At alt he was about D950. By the time we passed through 5K he was about 350 - 400 and closing. I finished pulling out at 1.5 to 2K and he was right on my 6 at 150 to 200.
Question is: How? A pony can outdive a P-47? If so, the P-47 is porked if it is trying to break an engagement with a pony.
So:
What could I have been doing wrong?
or
Are these planes modeled this way?
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Well as you mentioned you made almost a 90 degree vertical dive, the P-51 could have been easy on his stick and rolled down gently to not lose more E than he needed to chase after you, that is if he was smart. Plus P-51 faster than P-47 in a dive too i believe, and im positive its faster in level flight.
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Hey, Wildthing:
I know in level flight and straight-line acceleration, the 51 has it all over the Jug, but I never seen anything that said it could outdive it. Do you know of a resource that might show this?
Also, I did a unload transition into the dive, so I don't think I could have used that much E.
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Blammo, P51s are probably the best divers of the game, you cant match them with P47s. Go to Dueling Arena, to the highest field and test P51D and P47D30 in a dive to the sea.
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In real life P51's were known to catch 262's in a dive.
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That's possible IF Me-262 was at level flight but if both were in dive... I don't think so or P-51 was capable to pass sound barrier.
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Originally posted by GODO
Blammo, P51s are probably the best divers of the game, you cant match them with P47s. Go to Dueling Arena, to the highest field and test P51D and P47D30 in a dive to the sea.
I think you just made the point: "P51s are probably the best divers in the game". Maybe they are modeled differently in the game than in real life?
Anyway, I would be interested in doing some controlled test on this. Or, at the very least, seeing some data to support the idea a 51 could outdive a 47. It will very important to me the next time I need to get out of a fight with a pony.
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The only plane outdives the Pony in AH, is the Ta152H.
..
Of course, the moment alt drops and and both planes are forced to level the 51D starts to catch up with the Ta slowly.
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The diving ability of the P-51 in AH has been questioned many times. The P-47 is a good diver against other planes, but the Pony and Spit seems to be better in the game.
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Look at the wartime test results in "America's Hundred Thousand" on page 605. Best dive performance in order was P-38G, followed by F4U-1D and P-51D (tied) and then P-47D. The differences between these 4 were apparently not large, and the ordering in later tests was different.
If the P-51 unloaded during its entry into the dive and you didn't it should have caught you easily. Also, unless you filmed this and looked at the instruments for both aircraft at the beginning of the event you can't really be sure that the e-states were that close.
Hooligan
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Thanks for the reference and the info, Hooligan. I will check out the resource you mentioned.
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Assuming you both unloaded, with enough time the determining factor will be the critical mach no., which is higher for the P51
-blogs
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Dont mean to bust your bubble but p51 and p47 level acclerate almost exactly the same. It's just that the p51 has highe top speed.
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That's possible IF Me-262 was at level flight but if both were in dive... I don't think so or P-51 was capable to pass sound barrier.
The me262 isn't either. But anyway, Chuck Yeager was notorious for destroying Me262's with a p51.
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How many did he get? And I'll bet all were vulched on landing.
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No. I was talking to jamx the other day, and he said that most were snap rolls from him luring the me262 onto his six.
He then does a wierd snap back and takes a good shot. I do think that he got one or two flat out.
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Blammo, how quickly did you initiate your 90 degree dive?
A harsh turn will cause slight E to be burned.
Also, the P51 could have cut the corner. Think of a triangle, your path follows the two sides while the P51 follows the hypotenuse with a lead pursuit angle.
That also depends on the amount of E advantage you claimed the P51 had in the beginning.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No. I was talking to jamx the other day, and he said that most were snap rolls from him luring the me262 onto his six.
He then does a wierd snap back and takes a good shot. I do think that he got one or two flat out.
Yeager only got 11 and 1/2 kills during WWII, and claimed only two 262s. One was as I expected, a landing vultch. The other I can't find any info about. He might have claimed a probable kill on the 262 he scored hits on in the quote below.
While Flying a P-47 with the 357th Fighter Group, Gen Yeager encountered jet-propelled Messerschmitt (Me) 262s. Attacking the high element, he got hits on one of them before they pulled out of range. Separated from the rest of the flight, he spotted a lone Me 262 with its gear down approaching an airfield at approximately 500 feet. Diving at the deck, he fired a long burst into the jet before breaking off to avoid intense flak. The Messerschmitt crashed short of the runway and became the first jet aircraft on the 357th’s victory list.
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Question is: How? A pony can outdive a P-47? If so, the P-47 is porked if it is trying to break an engagement with a pony.
simple. all WWII pilots were either liars or biased.
Bozon
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The me262 isn't either. But anyway, Chuck Yeager was notorious for destroying Me262's with a p51.
"Chuck Yeager: World War 2 ace, shot down 11 German planes, including 2 Me-262 jets"
Notorious? ROFLMAO !
Oh and about Me-262 speeds... (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/wwiiol/me262_speeds.jpg)
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Yeager never flew the P-47 in combat. His unit (357th FG) was equipped with the Mustang on its initial deployment. Yeager flew Mustangs exclusively in combat.
My regards,
Widewing
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Yes, I noticed the P-47 remark too. This was the only quote I could find that described more than just the one 262 vultch. I can't find a description of how he got his second kill. Fact still remains, Yeager claimed 11 kills during WWII, two of which were 262s.
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I recall that the 65th SQN RAF did have an air-to air engagement with 262's. P51C it was, and 1 262 got shot down.
One pilot of that squad stated that the 51 would indeed be able to partially break through the barrier, losing control at a certain speed and regaining it again at higher speed.
Yeager would perhaps know ;)
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Not even the 163 could break the sound barrier. If for some insane reason someone were to strap a huge rocket to a P-51 and dive to mach 1, the P-51 would disintegrate in midair.
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I have always found the Tempest in AH to be a great diver, how does that compare to pony and Ta-152?
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As a sidenote, the X-1 was NOT the first plane to break the sound barrier, nor was it Chuck Yeager :D
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Then who was?
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Eugene Walsh, flying a prototype(?) jetfighter (Sabre I belive) in a dive actually.
Yeager was the first to break through in a level flight. Walsh died while trying that, and so did Geoffrey De Havilland. I do not know if it is belived whether those made it through the barrier.
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Oh, Walsh was one of those that scrambled at Pearl Harbour actually ;)
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Originally posted by Angus
Oh, Walsh was one of those that scrambled at Pearl Harbour actually ;)
No way, everyone knows it was only Ben Affleck and his buddy that made it up in the air.
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Oh Eugene Walsh. I figured it had to be an unlucky German that got his jacket snagged on a V2 or something. ;)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Oh Eugene Walsh. I figured it had to be an unlucky German that got his jacket snagged on a V2 or something. ;)
LOL....best one in a while
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:)
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Aww, that would suck lol.
Would the excess weight on one side give it a looping path? I.E. It turns around mid canal and heads for berlin?
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I have a book somewhwere that claims a test pilot put an F86 prototye into + Mach 1 dive at the sam time Yeager was tooling around in the X1.
Don't know if I beleieve it.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Then who was?
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Well the P-47 could be superior on the Mustang :)
P-47 Reigns Supreme over P-51 Mustang
Don Whinnem B-17 Escort Mission
352nd FG ETO -
We were escorting B-17s. I was flying Al Marshall's wing. We got into a mixup and got separated from the Group. I looked over my left shoulder and saw something coming in. I called , 'Al, there's a bandit coming in at 7 o'clock high'.
We did a scissors. Al broke left, I broke right and when I completed my circle it looked like Al was being shot up by an ME109 I put the throttle to the firewall, poured on the water injection and got on his tail. When I got within 200 yards I started firing and got strikes all over the plane. But as soon as he was hit he broke up sharply, and only then did I see the square wingtips and square tail. It was a P-51!
I called our Group Commander, Col. Joe Mason, a real tiger, and said 'Sir,there are some P-51s in the area'. He came back, real caustic, 'The hell they are. They're 109s. Shoot the bastards down'. 'But sir, one of them is a P-51 and I just shot it up pretty good'. Silence.
Well, I located the P-51 again, and by this time he knew we were 47s, so I pulled up alongside to take a look. I didn't know it was Glenn Eagleston, but he looked like he was hurting. There was nothing I could do, so I left him and joined our formation.
I got part of the story later that day and the rest of it 3 months later. It went all the way up to the 8th Fighter Command Hqs......A p-47 had shot up a P-51. Col Mason had to go up there and explain it to the brass. But our story held up. The P-51 was 150 miles off copurse, and his camera film showed him shooting at a P-47.
The trouble was that an FW190 and a P-47 have the same silhouette. You have to see the planview to see the elliptical wings.
Three months later I crash landed near a 9th AF base, and was taken to their hospital with a banged up nose and forehead. Eagleton was stationed there and they knew my name from the flap at Hqs, so he looked me up and we drank beer at the club and flew the mission all over again.
Eagleton swore he was shooting at a FW190, and even my camera film looked like I was shooting at a 109 to our Intelligence Officer. Glenn said the only thing that saved him was the armor shield behind the cockpit.. The bullets came in over his shoulder, hit the instrument panel, knocking most of them out.. When he got to his base it was weathered in and he was forced to bail out. His instruments were too shot up to try it.
And that's how Don Whinnem shot down Glenn Eagleston - something no German pilot was able to do. Glenn ended up with 20 1/2 confirmed victories, tops in the 9th AF. Whinnem was no slouch either. He didn't get credit for that P-51, but he got enough 109s and 190s to make him an Ace.
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Originally posted by joeblogs
I have a book somewhwere that claims a test pilot put an F86 prototye into + Mach 1 dive at the sam time Yeager was tooling around in the X1.
Don't know if I beleieve it.
The first pilot to exceed Mach 1 is likely to be Hans Guido Mutke, who, on on 9 April 1945 entered a 40°-50° dive under full power from 36,000 feet in an Me-262 over Innsbruck. His claim is supported by the fact that the controls of the aircraft became totally ineffective shortly before reaching the sound barrier and then full control was regained a few moments later. At the same time both engines flamed-out and the aircraft suffered severe damage. lt is as a result of a pure coincidence that he came to realise that he must have exceeded Mach 1 on this flight on 9 April 1945 with the Me262 "Weisse 9" from III EJG-2. This occurred during a discussion with a group of test pilots during the international meeting "50 Years of Jet Powered Flight" held in Munich in 1989.
Interestingly, Me 262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook, ref: F-SU-111-ND dated 10 January 1946, issued by Headquarters AIR Material Command, Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio (Classification cancelled; 3 June 1955), has the following text on page 13:
Speeds of 960 km/hr (590mph) are reported to have been obtained in a shallow dive 20° to 30° from the horizontal. No vertical dives were made. At speeds of 950 to 1000 km/hr (590 to 620 mph) the air flow around the aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and it is reported that the control surfaces no longer affect the direction of flight. The results vary with different airplanes; some wing over and dive while others dive gradually. It is also reported that once the speed of sound is exceeded, this condition disappears and normal control is restored.
Note the underlined text. Information about the performance of the 262 included material from the British test pilots who flew the plane. How would they be able to describe the plane's supersonic performance if the plane couldn't exceed Mach 1?
It's also reported that an XP-86 pilot named Welch exceeded Mach 1 in a dive shortly before Yeager's flight, and that Chalmers Goodlin had flown the X-1 supersonic on 5 May 1947, but after 26 flights in the aircraft was taken off the project and the aircraft handed over to the military.
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It's believed that the 262 was the first plane to brake the sound barrier in high altitude dives (not on purpose of course). There is a good story by a pilot on the web but I can't seem to find it again.
"It is believed that the Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet powered aircraft, was able to break the sound barrier during dives. There are numerous reports of pilots of sudden, strange aerodynamic behavior during dives that are consistent with the effects while breaking the sound barrier, plus a number of unexplained crashes during high speed dives. Pilots described it as the plane being hit with a large hammer, often resulting in damage to the plane."
Search the web, you can find some nice stories about it. AFAIK there was one pilot who survived such a dive (his 262 never flew again after he landed). Can't find the page on the web tho.
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I never heard about 262's breaking the sound barrier, ever. Wishful thinking? Also the story that an F-86 might have manged it is new to me, but that seems remotely plausible.
Is there someone here with a background in aerodynamics that has in informed opinion about whether or nor a 262 would be able to go supersonic without breaking up?
And, as we all know, some 262's are being built in Texas, one of them is flying as we speak. Could we persuade the chief test pilot to try a vertical dive and see oi the story is true? :D
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There's a lot of stuff of written about the P47D being the best plane for diving, but when I dive in the P51D I can exceed the speed of the P47D's dive. Not sure what's going on.
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Blammo, if you get a chance to repeat that scenario, you'd probably get a good laugh at making the pony overshoot then wathcing it frantically trying to get out of your 8 .50's way. Makes me chuckle just thinkin about it.
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Originally posted by hogenbor
I never heard about 262's breaking the sound barrier, ever. Wishful thinking? Also the story that an F-86 might have manged it is new to me, but that seems remotely plausible.
Is there someone here with a background in aerodynamics that has in informed opinion about whether or nor a 262 would be able to go supersonic without breaking up?
And, as we all know, some 262's are being built in Texas, one of them is flying as we speak. Could we persuade the chief test pilot to try a vertical dive and see oi the story is true? :D
Heres the guys to ask http://www.stormbirds.com/ (http://www.stormbirds.com/) They probly have accumalated the most info on the me 262 ... (BTW they moved to Everett Wa.)
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Hi Blammo,
>Question is: How? A pony can outdive a P-47?
Certainly. The P-47 in real life had a great acceleration in a steep dive but had a far lower Mach limit than the P-51 so in long dives, it would lose out.
By the way, I believe it's impossible that the Me 262 ever broke the sonic barrier in a dive. Control was lost even before Mach 0.9 was reached, and the aircraft would either have come out of the dive on its own without reaching Mach 1.0 or - and that actually happened more than once - continued the dive out of control, self-destructing itself - without reaching Mach 1.0, again.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by Angus
Eugene Walsh, flying a prototype(?) jetfighter (Sabre I belive) in a dive actually.
Yeager was the first to break through in a level flight. Walsh died while trying that, and so did Geoffrey De Havilland. I do not know if it is belived whether those made it through the barrier.
Just to clarify. His name was George Welch, and he was one of the pilots that got airborne at Pearl Harbor. He did the test flying on the XP86 and there is some belief he broke the sound barrier in a dive in the 86 prior to Yeager doing it in level flight. Certainly the 86 was capable of this and it was done often by service pilots flying the F86
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Staga
That's possible IF Me-262 was at level flight but if both were in dive... I don't think so or P-51 was capable to pass sound barrier.
well it is here, i was doing close to 600 (probably 560-580ish) once in my 262 and a P51 with 2k alt advantage gunned me down and overtook me............. :eek:
i knew the P51D was fast, but not that fast.
so i upped one to see how fast i could get it and i couldnt get it going as fast as my 262 was even in a 90degree dive(remember i forgot how fast i was flying since it was along while ago)
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Well I spent two weeks flying a P47 D11 and D25 - great fun, anyway then went back to a P51 for the day - first run went into a screaming dive as I had been doing in the Jug and when I pulled out - as I was now used to Jug wise the damn aelerons on the P51 popped off!!