Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fariz on January 31, 2004, 04:50:06 PM
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Problem with formation flying in AH is that in the game you can't control your position at the side of your leader by your peripheral vision. It makes formations like a classic finger 4 very hard to maintain, and even if you mannage to create this formation in flight, it is unstable, and takes too much attention to maintain. So in AH, formation flying turns into flying in "trains", where all the wingmans shall have leaders in their direct view.
My suggestions:
1) Add a formation "autopilot". Pilot has a ".leader" command. Pilot chose their leader, then hit "formation autopilot" button, which place him into the correct position at the side of leader, and this position is maintained by the autopilot till autopilot is switched off.
To prevent gamey use of this fuction is shall work only at short distances, for example .5k, and it shall break when leader makes battle moves (splits, breaks, hard turns etc), so it work only in pre-engagement situations, when this formation needed to cover each other 6th etc. In a battle it will not help.
It shall work as all other autopilots in AH. If pilots moves stick, autopilots is switched off. Only difference is that when autopilots is switched off due to leader move, his wingman shall be switched from "formation autopilot" to "level autopilot".
2) Add side screen icons which shows distance to the leader and direction to him (like in Rowans "Battle of Britain"). Also shall work only at close distances.
I think 1st way will be better.
Additionally it may be added a ".formation" command for leader, who can set distance between planes in formation, and (may be) even a type of formation himself (where to place his wingman, left or right).
It may be some way also to set formation not only for pair, but for a wing also. Apart from the apparent game advantages of such thing, it also will add to the visual and immersion side of a game. Imagine seing finger 4 fighter formation at the escort over the formation of bombers.
I understand, that for many AH players this feature is not needed, but people who flew scenarios will understand the need for such thing. Specially considering that AH2: TOD will be around some day.
Just ideas. Will apreciate your comments.
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:aok Very nice idea! Supporting it fully... ;)
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I don't like 2 because I hate a cluttered screen.
1 sounds good and I think FA may have something similar. I also agree it should work as long as the unit flies a straight course (with the exception of climb). Any course changes need to be handled by the pilots.
I agree that it should be short but below 1k. (800yrds is a good distance.)
Multiple formation sets may be too difficult because most would require someone be "in the lead". To simplify thing a simple line abreast formation would work best because the planes form on each other rather then on the "leader". Line abreast works best in online games do to lack of peripheral vision anyway. Or if multiple formation sets are desired then by highlighting the leaders icon (like padlock) would allow folks to lock on the leader then the leader could set formations.
Before the realism freaks jump in the one of the reasons for flying in formation is so the unit can better cover each other visually. Right now flying formation requires more concentration to stay together and allows for less time scanning the skies.
Good suggestion Fariz.
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Great idea Fariz, it'd be awesome to be able to fly close formation, as it is now, when you try to fly formation your too busy maintaining your position to even think about enemy airplanes... :aok
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Stupid idea Fariz. You suck. :D
lol j/k :P, Bloody brilliant idea! Id love for HT to implement this.
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Half the fun of flying for me is flying in formation. Wouldn't want an autopilot doing it for me.
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Great idea Fariz :aok
As long as Hawker gets to be in front, no more accidents :rofl
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Originally posted by 1Duke1
Half the fun of flying for me is flying in formation. Wouldn't want an autopilot doing it for me.
I agree Duke.
It takes skill to stay in a formation that provides cover for a group of bombers. And why shouldnt it?
I have little trouble staying in my position in a bomber formation. As long as the lead buff form pilot doesnt have his throttle firewalled and calls out his intentions as to altitude and heading changes in advance, it is quite easy.
The purpose of having a qualified and competent lead buff pilot is to coordinate the whole group and keep them together, not have some AI feature do it for him.
I understand the motive for your idea Fariz; to make what you consider non-important aspects of buffing easier. I just dont agree with there being a need to make it easier.
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Originally posted by 1Duke1
Half the fun of flying for me is flying in formation. Wouldn't want an autopilot doing it for me.
So do not use it. Autopilot is not something you must use, it is always your choice if to use it or not.
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Originally posted by loser
I agree Duke.
It takes skill to stay in a formation that provides cover for a group of bombers. And why shouldnt it?
Loser, I speak about fighters actually. With buffs you can use the external views, and this mostly solve the problem, but in fighters staying in a "historic" formation is more a burden, than a help due to limitations of computer view systems. Right now trying to fly in finger 4 you usually end using all your attention for just staying together, instead of using it to find the inbound bogies.
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Originally posted by DJ111
Great idea Fariz :aok
As long as Hawker gets to be in front, no more accidents :rofl
Actually will be harder to shot down Trikky if such autopilot is developed, but he has the magic ability to jump in front of his friends guns, so I think we will not lose the pleasure of seeing him going down :)
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Originally posted by WldThing
Stupid idea Fariz. You suck. :D
lol j/k :P, Bloody brilliant idea! Id love for HT to implement this.
Wld, wanted a serious talk with you. I heard that you are spreading lies that you won a duel with mel? You know that I canceled my AH account, and using it, but this lie is outrageous and will not be tolerated!
Please stop doing it. I am member of a Green Peace now, and the whole bunch of crazy folks are ready to protect me!
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easy to fly formation here, just most not patient enough
please No .formation commands
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Originally posted by Fariz
So do not use it. Autopilot is not something you must use, it is always your choice if to use it or not.
The problem with allowing this is that it grants those who use it a major tactical advantage through improved situational awareness. Typically, automatic functions in the game (combat trim and fuel control) trade performance for ease of use; the game performs these functions automatically but less efficiently. The engine management ability that Vulcan suggested in the AH2 forums fits this mold pretty well.
What you're proposing trades nothing. There is no disincentive to using the formation autopilot, and in fact those who use it enjoy both easier functionality and better performance due to enhanced situational awareness.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Cooley
easy to fly formation here, just most not patient enough
please No .formation commands
Thanks for reply. I will apreciate if you will explain me how having such autopilot can spoil your personal fun. Probably something negative I do not see?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What you're proposing trades nothing. There is no disincentive to using the formation autopilot, and in fact those who use it enjoy both easier functionality and better performance due to enhanced situational awareness.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Todd, I understand what you are saying. But IMHO you mess 2 kind of helpers, in-battler and off-battle ones. The in-battle shall have a tradeoffs, and I will hate myself if they will make combat trim the mandatory helper. But there are off-battle helpers in game also already. They are autopilots: auto-level, auto-angle, auto-climb. They also give you some advantages for no tradeoffs. And yet everyone uses it.
My point is not to make this game further from reality (as a gamer I prefer realistic games), but closer to it. For example, in a real finger 4 even when checking 6 you could control your position in formation by having your leader in pereferical zone of your vision. In AH you shall constantly switch view buttons, and you are more obsessed by staying in formation than looking around. In my understanding having this feature will make situation in game more realistic, not less. And as I said, it will be offbattle helper, along with those we have already.
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I do and don't like it... I would like to see it in scenarios for better control and design of buff boxes. Currently, they have to turn off friendly fire because the B17s warp slightly and it would be complete carnage.
For MA or fighters? Why? If the leader throttles down its not that hard to stay close. Sounds far too 'gamey' to me, not to mention the current buff formations still have control issues where the drones end up flying at odd, ever changing angles. Last thing we need is fighters doing the same...
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id give anything to have a formation autopilot, get a huge buff box going and have all the noobs hit autopilot so they can man their guns instead of flying in formation badly
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Originally posted by Delirium
For MA or fighters? Why? If the leader throttles down its not that hard to stay close. Sounds far too 'gamey' to me, not to mention the current buff formations still have control issues where the drones end up flying at odd, ever changing angles. Last thing we need is fighters doing the same...
Shall not happen. Right now formation drones are autopiloted from the server, that is why some anomalities. Formation autopilot if implemented is clint side, it just will use AI for plane position instead of joystick input, while client-server message flow will be the same.
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Most people saying no fly in the main only. This "formation" idea offers no great "SA advantage" then 2 or 3 guys in close proximity on auto climb communicating over AH voice.
However, in scenarios and events where you have 12 - 20 guys in a flight with reduced icons then something like what Fariz suggests would be great. Most of the time these large groups split into 2 or 4 man flights. Maintaining spacing and contact in a structured environment is important. Guys who fall behind and drift away have to make constant adjustments because of the lack of peripheral vision. It doesn't take "skillz" to make the adjustments its just added workload.
When Fariz is talking about a "formation" I don't think he means 5 or 6 guys in a gaggle like what some fly in the main. Its not like 1 guy would have control over the entire group of fighters like the bomber drones. All it would do is keep the correct spacing while in level flight.
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it would be an fe controlled thing if anything only between two players. and all you would need is the fe tracking 1 players position and staying in formation with that player the way drones do.
it wouldnt affect host resources this way.
id love to see formations in AH
we dont see them even in scenarios
you could have simple 5 point position command
hold position left, right, left rear, right rear, rear.
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so the player could select who to follow and the leader could be selected by the player following.
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but then how do you impliment this?
what ai coding would be necessary to achieve this?
would it work like fleets? where there is a carrier and the little ships maintain position around it? somthing simple and straightforward would be nice
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Originally posted by Citabria
id give anything to have a formation autopilot, get a huge buff box going and have all the noobs hit autopilot so they can man their guns instead of flying in formation badly
Again, I am not talking about buffs. Buffs will be in a box this way or another when AH2:TOD is ready, because most buffs will be AI. HTC probably also considering adding a formation autopilot for humanly controlled buffs in such boxes, because other way it will be easy to find out which buffs in a box are controlled by humans and which by AI, and it will be exploited.
My concern are fighters.
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Like padlock you just, cycle through and hi lite the guy you want to maintain formation with and click a button (like alt z or something) and you maintain a given spacing. For instance you stay about 500yrds from the guy you are locked to on your fe.
To keep it simple a line abreast formation would go like this:
Player 2 locks to Player 1; Player 3 to Player 2; Player 4 to Player 3 etc... Then if 1 breaks the rest stay in formation.
To get more complicated you could have a group lock to 1 guy who is the "lead" and this lead could have a few dot commands to change fromation type. .formation finger4; .formation eschelon left etc...
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Originally posted by Batz
Most people saying no fly in the main only.
I fly plenty of Friday night squad ops with the Shillelagh squadron, thanks. And I still say that it's an unbalancing idea... everyone will use it and there will be absolutely no benefit to not using it. Is it really that hard to match manifold pressure and auto-climb speeds once a group gets into formation? I've never had any problems with it in seven years of scenarios and various other "realistic" non-MA settings.
Maybe it would function best as an arena-configurable setting so that it can only be used in scenarios. Something about hundreds of absolutely perfect formations in such an environment rubs me wrong though.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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If everyone uses it how is it "unbalancing"?
How is it more unbalancing then 3 guys flying together "loosely" communicating over squad vox?
It simply reduces workload like auto climb/level/speed does now. It’s not a matter of adjusting mp. The group can match speed by typing .speed xxx.
The lack of peripheral vision makes true formation flying more difficult. All the “formation” would do is allow a unit to maintain a more orderly spacing instead of the gaggles of planes typically seen. It may improve the individuals SA by reducing his workload but the group itself has no better SA then anyone of the auto climb/level gaggles. We have 360 Linda Blair in AH, there aren’t many blind spots that would require specific types of formations. 4 guys spaced 500yrds apart in formation won’t see anymore then the 4 guys on auto climb spaced loosely.
I fly plenty of Friday night squad ops with the Shillelagh squadron, thanks.
Well good for you. What I said was "most people". You made the choice to include yourself in that generalization. My reply wasn't specifically directed toward you. I flew ToD (now squad ops) from the 1st one until I gave up my “Wotan” account. Only maybe 3 times did I see anything resembling a formation. Most were gangs of aircraft with a few stragglers.
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Ohhh I can picture squad nights from here...
Airmess: Guys, we're turning northbound in a second...
Straffo: Not now, I have to stir my choucroute or it will burn! Childern, out of the kitchen, now!!!
Ecke: nein Nein... ich kan nicht Messy, the foam of my beer hasn't settled yet!
Saw: o/t phone! (sounds of tobacco & papers...)
Airguard: I need to finnish this collumn in my newspaper...stand by...
Airmess:
...
PS: I like the idea :aok
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One thing....formation flying is not done by using "peripheal" vision. Those hollywood shots of pilots looking straight ahead, or away from the lead for extended periods of time, while maintaining "perfect" form is complete BS. When flying close form, the wingman is looking at his lead's aircraft 90-95% of the time...the other 5-10% are quick quick glances at the gauges, horizon, other wingmen, etc. If you don't, your gonna swap paint, and Look at any closeup photo of aircraft in formation, and you will see the pilots heads all turned towards the aircraft they are flying wing off of....they definitely are not turning to smile at the camera;)
Now if flying in a loose cruise position...yes...you will have a little more time to be looking about, positioning is not as rigid (more fluid), and gives the pilot more time to look for enemy. But the majority of your time you are still flying off the lead, and maintaining your position.
Entering combat, you will be in a combat spread....very fluid, and loose formation, positioning not rigid at all. Here you more eyes all around, rather than padlocking your lead, trying to find the enemy. You still check lead for positioning, but not quite as often....you basically have a piece of sky a few hundred feet above and below leads alt, and a set range (.5-1.0 for ex) from your lead to fly in.
If this was ever implemented, I would'nt use it. Have to agree it is "gamey". There is no "perfect" formation flying unless you are the Blue Angels, and it is a hell of a workload. Majority of form flying *today* is done in loose cruise. Tight form flying is for initial joinups and when getting ready to enter the break at an airfield/CV, or in crappy weather.
I could go on, but I've now been on watch for 12 hours, time to go. Look forward to reading response's later tonight.
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Originally posted by 1Duke1
One thing....formation flying is not done by using "peripheal" vision.
I can't say how it was in reality. But about field of vision, you can check it yourself easily. Look straight ahead, better at some point on the wall. Move your hands to the sides with 3 fingers up on each hand. Now move them ahead slightly till you will clearly see 3 fingers on each hand. Then measure degree between your hands. You will find out that normal untrained field of a clear vision is between 130-170 degrees, while in games field of vision is around 90. This is where the problem is. That is why in AH scenarios you will see all fighters flying in the messed groups, instead of formations. Trying to stay in historic formation is tiresome and wear out your view hat.
Honestly, I am not trying to find a solution for some abstract problem, I just want to see historic formation in more structured environment, like scenarious or TOD.
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One thing....formation flying is not done by using "peripheal" vision.
No one said that. Here is what I said:
The lack of peripheral vision makes true formation flying more difficult.
Take a 2-man line breast. You can't gauge relative position without turning your head 180 degrees.
Those hollywood shots of pilots looking straight ahead, or away from the lead for extended periods of time, while maintaining "perfect" form is complete BS. When flying close form, the wingman is looking at his lead's aircraft 90-95% of the time...
90% of the time?.
In typical finger 4 formation pilots had designated search areas. The whole point behind the development of certain formations wasn’t just to "be together". They allowed greater flexibility in defense and attacking. WW2 fighters didn’t have avionics and awacs telling where the bad guys were. Until late in the war most planes didn’t have bubble canopies. There were blind spots and by flying in formation the unit could help cover each other visually.
When flying close form, the wingman is looking at his lead's aircraft 90-95% of the time...the other 5-10% are quick quick glances at the gauges, horizon, other wingmen, etc. If you don't, your gonna swap paint, and Look at any closeup photo of aircraft in formation, and you will see the pilots heads all turned towards the aircraft they are flying wing off of....they definitely are not turning to smile at the camera
Who said close? We said 500 to 1k yards, 1500ft - 3000ft.
Now if flying in a loose cruise position...yes...you will have a little more time to be looking about, positioning is not as rigid (more fluid), and gives the pilot more time to look for enemy. But the majority of your time you are still flying off the lead, and maintaining your position.
No one said anything about combat formations. We are talking cruise. Certain formations allow for better defense against attack. With a formation like line abreast there are any number of counters to an attacker. From a "sandwich" to any number drag maneuvers. Spacing is important. It varies with plane type and the main consideration is turn radius at the given altitude and cruise airspeed.
Entering combat, you will be in a combat spread....very fluid, and loose formation, positioning not rigid at all. Here you more eyes all around, rather than padlocking your lead, trying to find the enemy. You still check lead for positioning, but not quite as often....you basically have a piece of sky a few hundred feet above and below leads alt, and a set range (.5-1.0 for ex) from your lead to fly in.
We (the guys I fly with) enter combat with any number of tactics and formations. Sometimes "welded wing" where the wingman stays locked. He basically follows the leader in. Loose Deuce where 1 stays high and one engages or Double Attack. We aren’t talking wingman tactics anyway. As stated from the beginning Fariz suggested that the formation is only maintained in level flight. He never said the "wingmen" would follow you like bomber drones.
If this was ever implemented, I would'nt use it. Have to agree it is "gamey". There is no "perfect" formation flying unless you are the Blue Angels, and it is a hell of a workload. Majority of form flying *today* is done in loose cruise. Tight form flying is for initial joinups and when getting ready to enter the break at an airfield/CV, or in crappy weather
Well this is a game and there are many "gamey" things. Auto climb/level/speed. Auto takeoff, auto trim, to name a few. Again no one said "perfect blue angle" formations. Maintaining between 1k and 800 yards isn't close nor does it need to be perfect.
Re-read the thread. Fariz's suggestion only has to do with "cruise". Flying to and from the battle.
I just got home from work so I am headed to bed before the super bowl. But here’s a link to a SimHQ article Andy Bush wrote.
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_013a.html
There are a couple of articles on my webpage as well.
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/images/rotte.gif)
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Originally posted by Batz
Player 2 locks to Player 1; Player 3 to Player 2; Player 4 to Player 3 etc... Then if 1 breaks the rest stay in formation.
In (*Fill with whatever country you want *) mode they all link this way , dive on a enemy field and the last locked pilot press the trigger to detonate the whole :D
@saw : perfect description it sounded very real :D
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I've wanted this for buffs for a long time. It takes constant flying for a buff to stay in formation, which is fine until fighters attack. Within a few minutes of manning guns, most buffs will drift apart. We already have a weakness in buffs that the jobs of 5 to 10 must be done by one. A "Lock On Leader" command would at least allow gunners to man guns while maintaining formation.
Back when I used to fly regularly with my squad, we used to fly buffs with a .speed command and make minor adjustments from the nose gunner position with the rudder. This worked fairly well, but not everyone could do it well and a few would never manage to get in tight with the group. Extended gunner time would tend to cause some to drift as well.
It would also be nice to have a "Bomb On Leader" command. This would be an option to make another pilot's bombardier yours. Great for carpet bombing.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Batz
If everyone uses it how is it "unbalancing"?
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Because those who choose not to use it gain no advantage from their choice. So basically you want an entire arena or scenario or whatever filled with picture-perfect finger four formations requiring no skill or effort. How quaint.
How is it more unbalancing then 3 guys flying together "loosely" communicating over squad vox?
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Because this requires one to simply hit a button and then do nothing other than pan around. The scenario you've just given requires teamwork, communication, and skill in order to work successfully. Personally, I feel these are good qualities that should be rewarded rather than punished.
It simply reduces workload like auto climb/level/speed does now. It’s not a matter of adjusting mp. The group can match speed by typing .speed xxx.
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I see this analogy bandied about, but I don't buy it. Auto-climb/level/speed really are just workload reducers. Formation flying is a tactical choice, however, and not just busy work like trimming to climb. Apples and oranges... one saves you the trouble of having to constantly adjust trim for speed or angle while the other turns, adjusts speed, trims, maintains distance, etc etc. You cannot compare these two.
The lack of peripheral vision makes true formation flying more difficult.
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The lack of peripheral vision makes engaging in combat more difficult too. Would you like an auto-combat function now?
All the “formation” would do is allow a unit to maintain a more orderly spacing instead of the gaggles of planes typically seen. It may improve the individuals SA by reducing his workload but the group itself has no better SA then anyone of the auto climb/level gaggles.
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I disagree. If those in the auto-climb/level gaggles must also pay attention to their wing leader and any commands he might issue, then they must balance situational awareness with tight formation flying.
We have 360 Linda Blair in AH, there aren’t many blind spots that would require specific types of formations. 4 guys spaced 500yrds apart in formation won’t see anymore then the 4 guys on auto climb spaced loosely.
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So now you've just undermined Fariz's argument. He stated, "It makes formations like a classic finger 4 very hard to maintain, and even if you mannage to create this formation in flight, it is unstable, and takes too much attention to maintain. So in AH, formation flying turns into flying in 'trains', where all the wingmans shall have leaders in their direct view."
If the point of auto-formation is to eliminate players looking directly at the leader and thus reducing their situational awareness, how can auto-formations not increase situational awareness? Do you disagree with his statement?
Well good for you. What I said was "most people". You made the choice to include yourself in that generalization.
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Oh, please. About three people spoke up in opposition to this idea in this thread. You clearly were pointing the finger at all of us while giving yourself an "out" by saying this. Spare me.
My reply wasn't specifically directed toward you. I flew ToD (now squad ops) from the 1st one until I gave up my “Wotan” account. Only maybe 3 times did I see anything resembling a formation. Most were gangs of aircraft with a few stragglers.
Formation flying can be taught. The lack of proper formations ties directly into the lack of decent air combat maneuvering and tactics witnessed in the main arena and elsewhere. Players just don't know how to do these things because nobody taught them how. Rather than spend the energy implementing an auto-formation command, why not take that time and effort to train players to wing properly?
The peripheral vision argument is well made by Fariz and others, but we must remember that the lack of realistic views impacts many facets of AH and not just formation flying. Once we start tinkering with that, where do we stop?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Citabria
but then how do you impliment this?
what ai coding would be necessary to achieve this?
would it work like fleets? where there is a carrier and the little ships maintain position around it? somthing simple and straightforward would be nice
It's fairly simple. Simguild (of flying circus fame) had your option 1 in their Battle of Britain. It was a very nice feature.
curly
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Thanks everyone who answered :) Now it is up to HTC, if they will find this idea interesting and worth their time to implement, we will see it in sometime. If no, then no. :)
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Because those who choose not to use it gain no advantage from their choice. So basically you want an entire arena or scenario or whatever filled with picture-perfect finger four formations requiring no skill or effort. How quaint.
Are you asking me or telling me what I said? I said a simple line abreast with around a d800 spacing.
Because this requires one to simply hit a button and then do nothing other than pan around. The scenario you've just given requires teamwork, communication, and skill in order to work successfully. Personally, I feel these are good qualities that should be rewarded rather than punished.
There's no skill required for auto climb/level and hat switch manipulation. Whether in a finger 4 or just within the same 3k radius they still are able to search the same amount of sky.
You need the same level of teamwork in what Fariz has suggested. All auto-formation does is keep planes spaced while otw to your target. Any maneuvering or course adjustments are made by each pilot. When AH 2 comes out then folks with TrackIR or Freeview will have a an advantage over those who can't or don't use them. They make SA, combat and formation flying easier. Are you going to tell HT not allow these to be used?
I see this analogy bandied about, but I don't buy it. Auto-climb/level/speed really are just workload reducers. Formation flying is a tactical choice, however, and not just busy work like trimming to climb. Apples and oranges... one saves you the trouble of having to constantly adjust trim for speed or angle while the other turns, adjusts speed, trims, maintains distance, etc. You cannot compare these two.
All Fariz's suggestion does is reduce workload. There's some tactical advantage to formation flying but no more then what we see now. No one said the these formations would work like bomber drones.
The lack of peripheral vision makes engaging in combat more difficult too. Would you like an auto-combat function now?
No it doesn't. SA in combat is different situation. We aren't talking about combat anyway.
I disagree. If those in the auto-climb/level gaggles must also pay attention to their wing leader and any commands he might issue, then they must balance situational awareness with tight formation flying.
Even if the auto-formation feature Fariz suggested is apart of AH the individual pilots would need to balance all these issues like they do now. The formation only maintains space while in level flight. Listening to AH voice or reading the text buffer will effect SA the same in both examples.
So now you've just undermined Fariz's argument. He stated, "It makes formations like a classic finger 4 very hard to maintain, and even if you mannage to create this formation in flight, it is unstable, and takes too much attention to maintain. So in AH, formation flying turns into flying in 'trains', where all the wingmans shall have leaders in their direct view."
If the point of auto-formation is to eliminate players looking directly at the leader and thus reducing their situational awareness, how can auto-formations not increase situational awareness? Do you disagree with his statement?
Most folks in AH aren’t flying any kind of recognizable formation for the very reason Fariz said. They are simply in close proximity heading in the same direction. Proper search patterns in a wedge or line abreast formation are directed inward toward each other.
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_013b_3t.gif)
All the auto-formation will do is eliminate the adjustments needed to keep your spacing, thus reducing workload like auto climb/level/speed.
Oh, please. About three people spoke up in opposition to this idea in this thread. You clearly were pointing the finger at all of us while giving yourself an "out" by saying this. Spare me.
I don't know how many in this thread are against it. I read a few replies then typed a response. Even if there were only 3 including yourself it’s still up to you to decide whether or not to include yourself in my generalization. What do I need to get "out" of? If I was specifically replying to you I would have used quotes like in this thread.
Formation flying can be taught. The lack of proper formations ties directly into the lack of decent air combat maneuvering and tactics witnessed in the main arena and elsewhere. Players just don't know how to do these things because nobody taught them how. Rather than spend the energy implementing an auto-formation command, why not take that time and effort to train players to wing properly?
The peripheral vision argument is well made by Fariz and others, but we must remember that the lack of realistic views impacts many facets of AH and not just formation flying. Once we start tinkering with that, where do we stop?
Sure it can and what better way then to add an auto feature so the new guys can learn? The better the pilots and the group the less need there is for rigid formation. In ToD my squad of guys were all good pilots. We all knew what to do with out really talking about it. Urchin, AG, Erlkonig, Leitwolf, Heinkel, Scot etc... didn't need constant direction.
Contrast that against a scenario with guys who have never flown together and across the spectrum of skill levels and you end up with a less then cohesive unit.
Reducing workload allows the new guys to watch and pay attention to what’s going around them without worrying about if they are in the right spot. Once combat commences this all changes. But no one is talking about combat anyway.
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I've been trying to implemement a loose Finger 4 formation set in the squad I fly in as of late. To do this isn't as hard as some may think. For starters there is no friendly collision so that is one less con to formation flying. And you have the auto level/auto climb options. If you were in different style aircraft this could be a bit more difficult.
Plus at the spread ranges any particular flight should be flying shouldn't cause to many problems either. Your going to have enough distance that even with friendly collision on you shouldn't be hitting them. When doing tac turns, if friendly collision was on then you'd have to be a bit more careful.
Once in an engagement your flight should be breaking of in pairs so it then becomes even slightly easier. And to top it off you'd also most likely be going to a line abreast position at that time anyway. This is due to it's advantages in both attacking and defending against bogeys.
Only issues I see with formation flying is the folks knowing what the formation sets are, there pros and cons, and there responsibilities in the formation. Once they have those basics down it's pros definately out weigh it's cons. The most you'll be doing is adjusting for slight variances whether it be your closing rate or extension rate to the leader. Majority of the time you'll be scanning around and then coming to check your spreads.
Once this is down you'll get into the more difficult stages of tactical doctrines (ie; double attack, loose duece, fighting wing(welded wing). The proper use of bracketing, the sandwhich, Thatch Weave, half splits, defensive splits,nose to nose turns and nose to tail turns. I guess the question is if your going to do formation flying how deep do you plan on going into the whole subject? If it's just for the sake of it looking pretty then there is no reason to spend the time doing it. It's only one small piece of a very large and complicated puzzle.
To top it off when doing bomber formations the basic Finger 4 is only a small part of the overall group formation. The Mighty 8th used many different formations through out the war as I'm sure other bomber squadrons did. They aren't just as simple as lining up in the Finger 4 and head to your target. There is a major issue of proper spreads in both the horizontal plane and the vertical plane. Now add there escorts and you're puzzle gets even more difficult.
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While this sounds like a fine idea, I think it would be too much of a crutch in the pre-engagement manuevering. I think it would be a nice tool to have in the training arena and to be able to turn it on in H2H games for training purposes.
There's no problem flying a nice formation without any kind of formation autopilot in the game. The biggest problem I've seen people have with formation flying is they make too much of a correction on the controls. Instead of just nuding the bird over a hair then bank it at 45degrees and then try to yank it back.
I have no problems holding my position in formation with anyone in my squadron, especially when we're flying our ponies.
Of course, formation flying with dissimilar aircraft is a challenge.
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Originally posted by Batz
Are you asking me or telling me what I said? I said a simple line abreast with around a d800 spacing.
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I was referring to Fariz's statement about the Finger Four formation in pointing out the logical conclusion of an auto-formation command. You'll have an arena or scenario full of perfectly formed flight groups without requiring any skill or practice. As formation flying is a skill one can and should learn in the game, such a function does not strike me as preferable.
There's no skill required for auto climb/level and hat switch manipulation. Whether in a finger 4 or just within the same 3k radius they still are able to search the same amount of sky.
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So why the auto-formation command then? For aesthetics? I'd hate to allow such a realism compromise for purely aesthetic purposes.
You need the same level of teamwork in what Fariz has suggested. All auto-formation does is keep planes spaced while otw to your target. Any maneuvering or course adjustments are made by each pilot. When AH 2 comes out then folks with TrackIR or Freeview will have a an advantage over those who can't or don't use them. They make SA, combat and formation flying easier. Are you going to tell HT not allow these to be used?
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You're very good at comparing apples to oranges. Do I really need to explain to you how TrackIR and Freeview substantially differ from a universally available formation autopilot function with only advantages and no disadvantages?
All Fariz's suggestion does is reduce workload. There's some tactical advantage to formation flying but no more then what we see now. No one said the these formations would work like bomber drones.
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By reducing workload you achieve a tactical advantage by enhancing situational awareness. But wait a minute... didn't you just say that auto formation requires no more or less work than auto-climb or auto-level? So which is it... is it a workload reducer or not? If it reduces the workload no more or less than the features already available to users, why even include it at all?
No it doesn't. SA in combat is different situation. We aren't talking about combat anyway.
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Yes, it does. The fact that I can see 45 degrees up but not to either either side puts me at a severe disadvantage compared to situational awareness in reality. And of course we weren't talking about combat, but then again I wasn't either... I was referring to how the lack of peripheral vision in the game affects many facets of gameplay and not just formation flying. Yet nobody has (yet) proposed gameplay concessions to account for those deficiencies.
Sure it can and what better way then to add an auto feature so the new guys can learn? The better the pilots and the group the less need there is for rigid formation. In ToD my squad of guys were all good pilots. We all knew what to do with out really talking about it. Urchin, AG, Erlkonig, Leitwolf, Heinkel, Scot etc... didn't need constant direction.
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I'm certainly in favor of a training auto-formation command that is arena-configurable. Enable it in the training arena and in H2H arenas sort of like the bomb practice marker and stall limiter so that new players can experience proper formation flying first-hand. But for the main arena or scenarios? Let them put that practice to the test.
Contrast that against a scenario with guys who have never flown together and across the spectrum of skill levels and you end up with a less then cohesive unit.
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Part of the thrill of scenarios is trying to stick together, cover one another, and keep a vestige of organization in chaotic surroundings. I'd hate to see that go away with the press of a button.
Reducing workload allows the new guys to watch and pay attention to what’s going around them without worrying about if they are in the right spot. Once combat commences this all changes. But no one is talking about combat anyway.
No, we're not talking about combat. But part of a successful formula for combat is remaining a cohesive unit up until the moment of combat. In my opinion, the game should reward those capable of maintaining better cohesion over those who cannot. Auto-formation removes that variable entirely from the equation.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
There's no problem flying a nice formation without any kind of formation autopilot in the game.
I just want to say in my understanding and experience it is a problem. If it was not, we would see formations all around, specially from immersion and realism buffs like many guys who fly in scenarious. To see what the real picture is very easy, you have to film any of AH scenarious and check how many fighter groups you see will looks like historic formations. I personally made a try for a formation, and found it hard and unrewarding. Simply saying, while some simplification will not be made in this field, it will be same way, no historic formations. It shall be clearly understood.
Next step is if HTC consider it important or unimportant part of the game. In my understanding, for AH classic it is not very important, because classic it is not structured. I even could live without it for scenarious, because they are not so often. But for something like TOD, which targets a specific niche of players, such things shall not be overlooked. It is such details which make picture a whole; seing a box of b17s and a messed gang of fighters over them as an escort is a strong immersion breaker IMHO.
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Originally posted by Fariz
Shall not happen. Right now formation drones are autopiloted from the server, that is why some anomalities. Formation autopilot if implemented is clint side, it just will use AI for plane position instead of joystick input, while client-server message flow will be the same.
I believe formations drones are presently set by your FE and positional data communicated the usual way............
This is a good idea Fariz............I believe it could be simpler ...............the AI drone model could be used directly.
The command could be
/.formL or /.formR or /.formT
There could also be range setting /.formD ### (0 to 999)
Your FE then takes over holding you at a set distance (with a fixed tolerance) to the left/right/trial position of your chosen lead man.
All limitations of the present drone formation FM then apply and the whole thing is set in each players FE without any increase in data traffic(except for the fact that there are actually lots of AC close together). In this way massive formations could be made.
Only down side is that 20 guys could /.formL fariz at 500 and all sit in the same space. This could be eliminated by a single latch (like the join command) where by "Fariz" could only have one left/right/trial at any one time.
I would not be concerned re the use of the Bomber AI model in combat............AI drones can even now only make quite gentle course corrections........ once you drop out of the tolerance zone then the AI formation model drops out too.
Also remember the daisy chain effect on a finger 4. A small correction by the lead could end up a large correction for tail end charlie
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I wouldn't say it's the "Next step" fairz, I say it was a step decided a long time ago. I.E. I still don't belive it is a good idea for the game.
HiTech
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I was referring to Fariz's statement about the Finger Four formation in pointing out the logical conclusion of an auto-formation command. You'll have an arena or scenario full of perfectly formed flight groups without requiring any skill or practice. As formation flying is a skill one can and should learn in the game, such a function does not strike me as preferable.
Here is what you said,
So basically you want an entire arena or scenario or whatever filled with picture-perfect finger four formations requiring no skill or effort.
You even quoted me before that.
So why the auto-formation command then? For aesthetics? I'd hate to allow such a realism compromise for purely aesthetic purposes.
I didn't mention aesthetics. I said it reduces individual pilot workload. Auto-anything is there to reduce workload. If there was no auto climb then folks would need to take attention away from SA to maintain climb rate and speed. If there was no auto level folks would need to spend more time maintaining their heading. If there was no Auto speed folks would to spend more time watching mp etc...
Auto-formation adds nothing more then any of these others. What it does do is reduce the individual workload and keep his spacing. Not everyone in a group is distracted at the same time making adjustments. So there’s no reduction in the groups SA.
You're very good at comparing apples to oranges. Do I really need to explain to you how TrackIR and Freeview substantially differ from a universally available formation autopilot function with only advantages and no disadvantages?
All these fall under your umbrella of "realism compromises". You claim that an individual would be at a disadvantage because all groups would use it. Well the "individual" who doesn’t use the features quoted above are at a disadvantage as well. So if you claim that certain features ought to be left out of the game because it may disadvantage some one it’s logical to inquire how far you would go in opposing "realism compromises".
Remember you typed the below as a reason why you believe auto-formation will be "unbalancing".
Because those who choose not to use it gain no advantage from their choice.
By reducing workload you achieve a tactical advantage by enhancing situational awareness. But wait a minute... didn't you just say that auto formation requires no more or less work than auto-climb or auto-level? So which is it... is it a workload reducer or not? If it reduces the workload no more or less than the features already available to users, why even include it at all?
No what I said there's no advantage gained from auto-formation that isn't already there for 5 guys on auto climb in a 3k radius using auto -climb/level/speed. Go re-read it.
I am referring to work load reduction for the individual. Like the multiple spacing corrections necessary on prolonged flights. Some folks will takeoff and set the direction and hit auto-climb then go afk. Well a player might want to up and use auto-formation and go grab a drink without drifting half a sector away from his flight. He may want to alt tab out and review his orders. He may want to take the time to review a few things with command etc.
This is what I mean by reducing individual pilot workload. Your claim is that it folks on auto-formation get some extra tactical advantage that they currently don't have. I certainly don’t see it.
But if HT decides he is against then that's that.
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Originally posted by Batz
You even quoted me before that.
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Are you now actually engaging in a semantics argument? Jesus, Batz, stop wasting both of our times.
I didn't mention aesthetics. I said it reduces individual pilot workload. Auto-anything is there to reduce workload. If there was no auto climb then folks would need to take attention away from SA to maintain climb rate and speed. If there was no auto level folks would need to spend more time maintaining their heading. If there was no Auto speed folks would to spend more time watching mp etc...
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And one of the points I was trying to make earlier was that formation flying requires quite a bit more attention than manually performing any of the other tasks you mentioned, and often times it includes combinations of all of them (maintaining heading, watching MP, RPMS, etc.). This isn't just a workload reducer; it's a substantial workload reducer not consistent with the other auto functions you've mentioned.
Auto-formation adds nothing more then any of these others. What it does do is reduce the individual workload and keep his spacing. Not everyone in a group is distracted at the same time making adjustments. So there’s no reduction in the groups SA.
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Basically where I disagree with you is this notion that "keeping spacing" should become automatic. Spacing, formation flying, and the like strike me as skills that require practice to perfect and yield real benefits in scenario environments. In contrast, the sorts of things that auto-level, auto-climb, and auto-speed handle really are just brainless busy work requiring no skill. Once you begin automating a skill-based function (formation flying), what next?
All these fall under your umbrella of "realism compromises". You claim that an individual would be at a disadvantage because all groups would use it. Well the "individual" who doesn’t use the features quoted above are at a disadvantage as well. So if you claim that certain features ought to be left out of the game because it may disadvantage some one it’s logical to inquire how far you would go in opposing "realism compromises".
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Formation flying provides tactical advantages particularly pre-engagement by keeping groups cohesive and close together. I've already stated this. The fact that not turning on auto-formation provides absolutely no tactical benefit means that auto-formation would become so dominant as to become the norm. And since formation flying is a skill, you would basically have an arena full of players supplanting skill for automation. Is that what we really want? It seems that's not what HiTech wants.
No what I said there's no advantage gained from auto-formation that isn't already there for 5 guys on auto climb in a 3k radius using auto -climb/level/speed. Go re-read it.
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I disagree. Unless you somehow think that a close-knit group of players flying in close formation within 800 yards of one another somehow equates to a loose grouping of players in a 3k radius of one another once combat begins, auto-formation clearly provides a tactical advantage beyond simple situational awareness.
But if HT decides he is against then that's that.
Indeed he does seem against it, but I wish he'd explain the choice a bit further.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Even though the issue is dead I will offer 1 more repy:
Yes we disagree.
Here's why
Let's say 5 guys launch from a field and turn to a heading. The group leader says "heading 270 climb @ 175 mph mp XX" The group turns to the heading and goes into auto climb and types .speed 175 and adjusts throttle.
From here on out mp / rpm adjustments are minimal. The only real "distraction" is the spacing adjustments. Not everyone in the group will be distracted by these adjustments at the same time so the SA of the group remains constant.
The only real benefit is for the individuals in reducing their workload by eliminating the spacing adjustments through out the cruise period.
Auto-formation won't perform turns and maneuvers just keep you at dXXX on your FE from the player you are linked to as long as he remains straight.
Pre-positioning isn't much of a factor if you are seen, which is usually the case. As soon as dots are visible most folks start to counter and prepare. Ultimately it comes down to the fighting skills of the group and individuals not "formation flying skillz".
The only real "tactical" benefit worth mentioning that I can see is in defensive maneuvering. From good spacing and positioning there are a host of counters to an attack. For the players who prefer to start from the defensive this advantage would be exploited. But these maneuvers require some practice and that the pilots fly together enough to know what to expect from the other. It still comes down to people.
When I say "workload" I am not saying that adjusting position is the equivalent to carrying a 300lb boulder up a hill. I mean the same type of workload that things like auto-climb/level/speed and things like simplified engine management eliminate now.
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I think it'd be nice to have formations but I don't think I'd like to see it implemented in the way of a key stroke. Also to get the right formation spreads then you'd have to be looking at each aircrafts capabilities.
I'd honestly prefer that folks have to learn what a good spread should be and not have someone else just do it for them. I think this should be left for the squadrons that really wanna use tactics in here. With tactics comes a major advantage and for some the hours of study and training are all for not because we wanna make things simple.
I'm devoting alot of time here to learn and try to teach such things as formations and there uses. If anything have a website link devoted to such things so others may have a place to learn such techniques. Granted with simply implementing formation hold routines it wouldn't affect the overall scheme that much due to the fact they still have to use proper tactics afterwards. It just seems the easy way out is all.
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I think there is a misunderstanding of the use of formations.
Militarily, the formation is intended to get a group of folks from one point to another in an orderly manner.
In the real world of aircraft combat, you have to worry about collisions with your wing elements in addition to watching for the enemy.
That is the reason for different types of formations.
Since there are no friendly collisions, half the problem is eliminated. We just need to get the herd to the same spot at the same time.
Spreading out a bit helps provide good visual coverage. Since a group of people watching should be better than one, as this helps eliminate the blind spots of the individual; keeping an eye on your leader and wingmen shouldn't be much of an issue.
Autopilot functions already help maintain formations, throttle and rudder trim simplify it greatly. My biggest problem when flying on someones wing, the leader doesn't understand that I can't maintain any position with him cruising at 100% throttle. Something I remind my guys in the squad of often. Flying formation and not looking silly still requires practice, as I rediscovered after a long break with the squad not practicing this. The term "goat-rope" comes to mind.
The addition of this feature would be interesting, but I personally doubt it would be used often or make a significant difference in game play.
IMHO,
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Formation flying takes skill and all of your attention.
It is fun learning how to do it online.
use padlock if u want.
Biggest problem with lack of formation flying in MA ... flight leaders that take off first and go full throttle. Leaders should throttle back a hair.
I would hate to see formation flying become another key press.
Communication and auto pilot usage can do what you ask .