Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zazen13 on February 01, 2004, 03:33:56 AM
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The past year has been an exciting one, new maps and a new rotation system with AH2 on the horizon. In the interest of scientific observation I have compiled some data from the HTC database for the year ending December 31,2003 (Jan. 2003 to Dec. 2003 inclusive).
KILLS
Rooks:2,451,393
Avg. Kills/Camp:204,282
Bishops:2,207,677
Avg. Kills/Camp:183,973
Knights:2,272,722
Avg. Kills/Camp:189,394
DEATHS
Rooks:2,105,349
Avg. Deaths/Camp:175,446
Bishops:2,568,464
Avg. Deaths/Camp:214,039
Knights:2,271,325
Avg. Deaths/Camp:189,277
K/D RATIOS
Rooks:1.16 Kills/Death
Bishops:0.87 Kills/Death
Knights:1.00 Kills/Death
INTERESTING 2003 FACTS: (Not Subjective; Based on Actual Data)
-Rooks OUT-KILLED Bishops by 243,716 kills in 2003.
*That works out to 20,310 MORE Kills/Camp on average.
-Rooks OUT-KILLED Knights by 178,671 kills in 2003.
*That works out to 14,889 MORE Kills/Camp on average.
-Bishops died 463,115 MORE times than Rooks in 2003.
*That works out to 38,593 MORE Deaths/Camp on average.
-Bishops died 297,139 MORE times than Knights in 2003.
*That works out to 24,762 MORE Deaths/Camp on average.
-Rooks OUT-KILLED the mean average by 6% in 2003.
-Bishops killed 4% BELOW the mean average in 2003.
-Knights killed 1% BELOW the mean average in 2003.
-Rooks died 10% LESS than the mean average in 2003.
-Bishops died 11% MORE than the mean average in 2003.
-Knights died 2% LESS than the mean average in 2003.
There you have it, enjoy and feel free to verify my findings, it's all here on the website. I will not state my conclusions as part of this post as to keep it objective, feel free to draw your own conclusions and post them here.
Zazen
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lololol too funny this is going to break the 500 thread ceiling!!
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Well, dunno since when Rooks have largest population, but I remember it was not this way a few months back. All I can say is WTG rooks :)
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Zazen,
Can you tell the numbers of each side ? Sorties? Planes in the arena and such?
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well its official... bishops sucks :D :p
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the way i read it bish fight more often than knits or rooks.:)
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who won resets and how many?
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thrila, do you mean they fought and lost more? :)
~S~
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Originally posted by Flyboy
well its official... bishops sucks :D :p
wanna test that theory of yours:)
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Zazen,
Very nice work and interesting results!
Thank you for compiling and posting them.
eskimo
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guess that proves that the country with the most numbers wins... If you attack in 10/1 numbers your risk tgoes down.
pretty simple stuff really.
what is surprising is that the knits were the least numbers so were fighting from a huge disadvantage (prime time at least) and still did well.
rooks seem to have sqauandered their huge advantage... must have been all the suicide fuel porkers and newbies.
lazs
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rooks seem to have sqauandered their huge advantage... must have been all the suicide fuel porkers and newbies.
Gawds I have been out of the arenas for a long time...that was the typical bish tactic for so long it's not funny. 10-15 typhies all flying in a gaggle would come in about 10-15k, all of em would be dead within a minute.
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This shows that rooks are the superior race.
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I dont think it matters .. the rooks had higher k/d's even when the #'s were way down also .
i figured w/ the # adv it would go the other way ...
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
I dont think it matters .. the rooks had higher k/d's even when the #'s were way down also .
i figured w/ the # adv it would go the other way ...
Yes, I found that interesting too. Actually, while compiling this data that very pattern quickly emerged. There was less, usually much less, than a 1/10th of 1 % variation in Kills/Death within any country month to month. The fact that this data trend is so consistant, for each country, over such a long period is intriguing.
Also of note, referring back to the old data from Beta onwards to the present, Rooks maintain this same, anomolously high kill rate throughout. This includes the 18 month period where Bishops and to a lesser degree Knights outnumbered Rooks by a vast margin. Curiously, also, during that same period where Bishops consistantly had overwhelming numbers, their results were just as abysmally sub-par as they are now and throughout 2003. Knights have always been somewhere in between the two, leaning toward the Bishop end of the spectrum of very poor performance relative to Rooks.
In fact, Rooks Kills/Death vs. Knights was 1.20 to 1 for Rooks compared to 0.84 to 1 for Knights vs. Rooks. The ratio of 1.20 to 1 for Rooks is above the Rook average of 1.16 to 1. The ratio of 0.84 to 1 for Knights is well below the Knights average of 1 to 1 and even worse than the Bishops pathetic 0.87 to 1 overall ratio for 2003. So, the Knights marginally better performance relative to Bishops is owed entirely to the fact that they enjoyed disproportionately greater success vs. Bishops than vs. Rooks.
Apparently, each country has, in fact, a unique character unto itself that transcends time, relative numbers, natural migration of squads and new players. Deductive logic then would dictate that this verifiable trend in the data from Beta to the present, including the 2003 data I presented, is the result of the large core of players each country possesses that has never, and therefore likely will never, change to another country. Because of this fact, the relative success and failure of the three countries will never change by any meaningfull degree in the future.
Zazen
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guess that proves that the country with the most numbers wins... If you attack in 10/1 numbers your risk tgoes down.
:rolleyes:
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having a numbers advantage would improve your K/D ratio... it really is that simple. If it is good with low numbers it will be better with numbers advantage... if it is poor then it will improve with numbers advantage.
flying with a country that has a numbers advantage, be it local or area wide is a HUGE advantage... probly not much fun but... and advantage none the less.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
having a numbers advantage would improve your K/D ratio... it really is that simple. If it is good with low numbers it will be better with numbers advantage... if it is poor then it will improve with numbers advantage.
flying with a country that has a numbers advantage, be it local or area wide is a HUGE advantage... probly not much fun but... and advantage none the less.
lazs
As long as you are having fun, doesn't matter where you fly I guess. The stats seem to show the Rooks having the better k/d even during times when they were vastly outnumbered.
Pretty interesting stats.
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Lol! If I knew that these statistics counted I would try to run whenever I got in a fight. I still haven't figured out how the rooks do it so well.
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Do what so well, Punisher?
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Run.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Run.
so rooks get a higher k/d ratio than other countries because they run? I get it.
The rooks get more overall kills too.....not just k/d, so running doesn't factor does it?
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Anyway to see which countries won the most resets? That might answer some questions.. ie: Rooks dogfight more than the bishops suicide/take fields.
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Punisher, you better hope rooks get better at running.
Rooks 214, Punisher 199.
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man if you could only do php coding and have this as a status page!
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It's all subjective. When I fly, I fly low and when I see incoming high cons they are the vast majority of times rooks. Some times it's laughable.
Spent this tour flying under them trying to get them to come down and fight. When they had the numbers they did. ( rough tour on this end )
On the other hand if I meet a gaggle inbound co-alt to do some fightin, they're usually Bish.
It's subjective because of the amount of time I fly, and where I fly.
From this end of view, the Bish fight, the rooks fight if you make it easy..
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(Taken from the Book of Rook)
Well it all started a long long long time ago.........
The Rooks with their magnificent castles quickly hid their Sheep in them and took to the skys .....
Mean while the Bishops are busy praying to their Flock, and the Knights are Struggling to get into their armor ....
So our brave Rooks and quickly climbing to Standard Rook operational Altitude ( Roa=20k ) start out with the Advantage...
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Blah blah blah blah blah... rationalize, blah blah blah.
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Lol Roscoroo!
I rarely ever turn down a fight steve. Even if i'm at the disadvantage.
However, any time a rook has a chance to run, he does from me.
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Blah blah blah blah blah... rationalize, blah blah blah.
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Originally posted by Steve
Punisher, you better hope rooks get better at running.
Rooks 214, Punisher 199.
doing my part to keep rooks' ratios down...
307 Kills of Rooks
99 Deaths by Rooks
:)
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The most telling stat is not given in any database - pilot experience in hours or perhaps camps. Since most new players (and a lot of 2 week trial memberships) fall into Bishop land, the results aren't surprising. Considering the average number of players per country online per hour isn't given, the results seem pretty much equal.
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Dont forget to factor in those without "allegiance."
[list=1]octavius has 251 kills and has been killed 78 times against the Bishops.
octavius has 257 kills and has been killed 74 times against the Knights.
octavius has 113 kills and has been killed 38 times against the Rooks.[/list]
Thanks for gathering this data Zazen!
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Since most new players (and a lot of 2 week trial memberships) fall into Bishop land,
Riiiiiight.
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WTG shane. Stats aside, I think there are excellent pilots and squads on all 3 countries.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
The most telling stat is not given in any database - pilot experience in hours or perhaps camps. Since most new players (and a lot of 2 week trial memberships) fall into Bishop land, the results aren't surprising. Considering the average number of players per country online per hour isn't given, the results seem pretty much equal.
Actually, you are incorrect. The team assignment for new players rotates. When I opened my wife's account she began as Knights. My friend from work began as Rooks. All teams have an equal influx of new players.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Steve
WTG shane. Stats aside, I think there are excellent pilots and squads on all 3 countries.
That is exactly correct. These statistics are generalized to the scale of an entire country. There are going to be abundant exceptions. I am sure we could collect 100s of screenshots of Bishops and Knights with impressive individual statistics. But, we are dealing with a total of almost 7 million kills and 7 million deaths in 2003, even a few 100 exceptions to the statistical evidence are insignificant relative to this vast a sampling. The point is, each country has a clearly defined 'personality' if you will, that takes into account these exceptions which are already factored in statistically. For every Shane that has a 3 to 1 Kill/Death ratio vs. Rooks there 5 with a 0.25 Kills/Death ratio vs. Rooks.
Zazen
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Originally posted by NUKE
so rooks get a higher k/d ratio than other countries because they run? I get it.
The rooks get more overall kills too.....not just k/d, so running doesn't factor does it?
Crumb brings up a great point here. The stereo-type of a Rook to this point has been that of a runner. In actual fact Rooks are the premier Killers, far out-killing the other two even when disadvantaged numerically for extended periods of time. What these statistics clearly show is that, that Rook Pony running from you has 4 of your buddies pelts in his pouch and has no intention of risking getting HO'd, rammed, bounced or anything that may prevent him from landing them and basking in his well-deserved glory.
While I understand that may be frustrating to the chaser, it's just prudent play. The simple fact is, the Rooks kill rate far exceeds that of Bishops and Knights and has since beta to the present day. The fact that they choose to disengage at times that do not suit the enemy is only a reflection of the desire of the Rook to land his kills. The average Bishop who rarely survives a typical engagement would understandably not comprehend this motive. Thus, Rooks get unfairly and one-dimensionally type-cast as runners.
Zazen
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Originally posted by NUKE
so rooks get a higher k/d ratio than other countries because they run? I get it.
The rooks get more overall kills too.....not just k/d, so running doesn't factor does it?
This statistical evidence represents much more than the "Fly to Survive" mentality. When we are dealing with an entire years worth of kill totals what we are really talking about is EFFECTIVENESS. Without even considering K/D ratios, any country that destroys vastly more enemy aircraft than it itself loses, even while disadvantaged numerically over extended periods of time, is plainly MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE. These are the only really important statistics in real life large scale conflicts, and while in a game they are for recreational purposes only, they still paint a very clear picture of RELATIVE EFFECTIVENESS.
Zazen
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(PG 17 in the Book of Rook ) states .........
"After multiable Kills of 2 or more, any and all Rooks will do their darnest to get back to their Castle ... (sticking toungue out afterwards at Bishops or Knights is optional )
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Originally posted by nopoop
It's all subjective. When I fly, I fly low and when I see incoming high cons they are the vast majority of times rooks. Some times it's laughable.
Spent this tour flying under them trying to get them to come down and fight. When they had the numbers they did. ( rough tour on this end )
On the other hand if I meet a gaggle inbound co-alt to do some fightin, they're usually Bish.
It's subjective because of the amount of time I fly, and where I fly.
From this end of view, the Bish fight, the rooks fight if you make it easy..
It is your prerogative to fly however you wish. But, intentionally engaging at a disadvantage does nothing but handicap your innate potential effectiveness. I understand that some gain some feeling of moral victory or superiority doing this and being successfull. But, what you are really doing, in the big tactical picture, is giving the enemy more tools to beat you with, tools he doesn't need or deserve.
I have played these games a LONG time. I have learned that you are going to be engaged at a disadvantage against your will plenty enough to prove your mettle and more. Why then intentionally thrust yourself into disadvantageous situations. Got too much free time? Have a martyr complex? Dunno, you tell me....
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Why then intentionally thrust yourself into disadvantageous situations. Got too much free time? Have a martyr complex? Dunno, you tell me....
Holy crap, Zazen, how many times must people explain it to you?
We do it because it's fun for us. It's not about innate efficiency or blah blah blah blah or some feeling of moral superiority and blah blah blah. It's about having fun in the time we have to play. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Holy crap, Zazen, how many times must people explain it to you?
We do it because it's fun for us. It's not about innate efficiency or blah blah blah blah or some feeling of moral superiority and blah blah blah. It's about having fun in the time we have to play. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this?
-- Todd/Leviathn
I totally understand that Todd. But, there is a paradox at work here. The same "Fun Seekers" you speak of are the ones whining like stuck pigs about how Rooks fly. They sure as hell don't sound like they are having much "Fun" to me. I think it's more a matter of people looking for a quick fix that requires the least amount of mental effort and forethought, only to have Rooks come pop their cherries.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It's not that I don;t grasp it. It's just that these same' Fun Seekers", whine like stuck pigs about how Rooks fly. They don't sound like they are having much fun to me . I think it has more to do with mental laziness and the desire for a quick fix that requires the least amount of mental effort on their part.
Do you hear my whining? I think the only mental laziness I see going on around here is poorly-reasoned classification of other players and flying styles. Mental effort? It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is and what it offers, but to attribute personal deficiencies to liking a certain flying style is just, frankly, pretty idiotic.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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>>Actually, you are incorrect. The team assignment for new players rotates. When I opened my wife's account she began as Knights. My friend from work began as Rooks. All teams have an equal influx of new players. <<
Ooops - had no idea. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Do you hear my whining? I think the only mental laziness I see going on around here is poorly-reasoned classification of other players and flying styles. Mental effort? It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is and what it offers, but to attribute personal deficiencies to liking a certain flying style is just, frankly, pretty idiotic.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Don't know if I call that whining, but you sure are getting really defensive. I've known you a long time, you are a fine pilot. I have watched you with one of my 'shades' accounts, you mainly vulch suppressed fields. Is that fun for you? If it is go for it, but the holier than thou attitude doesn't become you. In your own way, you do exactly what I do, you seek situations of advantage and exploit them maximumally. Get off your pedestal please.
Zazen
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Lets get back to the facts. It has been quite some time since rooks were in the bucket, time to retire that saw and return to reality.
I did a topic search and got the hit I was looking for on the date 11-07-2002
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69234&highlight=rooks
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have played these games a LONG time. I have learned that you are going to be engaged at a disadvantage against your will plenty enough to prove your mettle and more. Why then intentionally thrust yourself into disadvantageous situations. Got too much free time? Have a martyr complex? Dunno, you tell me....
Zazen
I can only speak for myself, but I play only to furball, I dont care about the flight too the furball, and I will and do AUGER[/b] without a second thought to save a 10 min flight back to base just to "land" kills. I land less than 15% of the time, and those times that I do it is ONLY because I happen to get unengaged in combat right over a friendly base. No martyr complex, not too much free time, the only thing that interests me is the actual air combat[/b] nothing else.
I say (jokingly of course) that you folks that bother to land are the ones with too much time on your hands.:D
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Originally posted by Zanth
Lets get back to the facts. It has been quite some time since rooks were in the bucket, time to retire that saw and return to reality.
I did a topic search and got the hit I was looking for on the date 11-07-2002
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69234&highlight=rooks
And the Point is? You stated the Date is 11/07/2002
sorry but that was a while back. a long while back.
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Originally posted by Grits
I can only speak for myself, but I play only to furball, I dont care about the flight too the furball, and I will and do AUGER without a second thought to save a 10 min flight back to base just to "land" kills. I land less than 15% of the time, and those times that I do it is ONLY because I happen to get unengaged in combat right over a friendly base. No martyr complex, not too much free time, the only thing that interests me is the actual air combat[/b] nothing else.
I say (jokingly of course) that you folks that bother to land are the ones with too much time on your hands.:D [/B]
That's the best reason I've heard yet. You are a great example of an exception. There's alot that do this and want to land, and it's not a matter of limited free-time. Alot of these individuals fly 1000, 2000 even 3000 sorties a camp. Obviously, this thread is not of terrible interest to folks like you, and guys like Lazs, whose total flying time this month was 8 hours (I swear he must spend more time posting than flying heh). I am speaking more to the 15 hour+ a week regulars.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Don't know if I call that whining, but you sure are getting really defensive.
[/B]
I'm not getting defensive, Zazen. What I'm trying to do is get you to understand that Aces High is an open-ended game that has no "right" or "wrong" way of playing. Flying one way does not denote mental superiority or finely-honed mental acuity, and neither does flying in a completely contrary manner indicate mental laziness or inferiority. Until you begin to recognize this, you're going to sound like a nutcase.
I've known you a long time, you are a fine pilot. I have watched you with one of my 'shades' accounts, you mainly vulch suppressed fields.
[/B]
LOL Pellik, is that you?
Is that fun for you? If it is go for it, but the holier than thou attitude doesn't become you. In your own way, you do exactly what I do, you seek situations of advantage and exploit them maximumally. Get off your pedestal please.
[/B]
Holier than thou? I think you're getting things confused since I'm attempting to explain to you that no one way of flying is better than any other. It is you who claim otherwise and in so doing elevate yourself on a pedestal. I'm trying to drag you back into the mud with the rest of us unwashed masses.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Have a martyr complex? Dunno, you tell me....
Zazen
it's fun. :)
and it's just another aspect of the game one should at least try to become semi-adequate at.
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My Dad can beat up your Dad! Neener, neener, neener!
LOL. Gawd these kind of threads crack me up :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
LOL. Gawd these kind of threads crack me up :)
Dan/Slack
you're a nomad, it doesn't take much. even a wee bit of runway does it for ya.
:)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Why then intentionally thrust yourself into disadvantageous situations. Got too much free time? Have a martyr complex? Dunno, you tell me..
I'm glad you asked. I've been flyin since 98 and have run the whole gamut of flight. Spent a few years in 190's over the hill, flying to live, doin the S3's, learning to be a pilot of opportunity in a low risk situation. After a time, I got pretty good at it, not as good as you do, but pretty good none the less.
Over time, what I found is that while being good at what I did, I didn't fight a whole lot. That's not in the low risk scenario of doing things. But on those occasions when I stepped in too far I had to fight. I really enjoyed the fight. The hundreds of planes I've shot down over the years I couldn't tell you about. But the fights ?? I remember them all.
Flying to live for me became same'o same'o. Bland. I have a goal or set of goals that keep me coming back day after day. Never the same, always different, always a challenge. I'm going to be that guy at the bottom of the pile that kills them all.
Impossible you say ?? For me it prolly is. Got two or three squadies that do it on a regular basis so I know it can be done. So I work it. Work it every time I'm up.
Not a martyr and I work around 60 hours a week so it isn't too much time.
I think it's for my 10 kill film when they were all above me.
Maybe tomorrow.. If not, there's always the next day. This tour I've learned that I need to keep my speed down. I've been too fast, going to keep the speed down and work on it.
Kill a couple above you and it's a drug..
..three ???
WHOOT !!
I'm....a junkie..in training.
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Levi, you hit the nail on the head. i will fly this game how i want, the way that i have fun, and i would expect everyone else to do the same.
:cool:
~S~
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We do it because it's fun for us.
There are just as many furballers on each side. Not only that, a furballer probably increases overall K/D, say compared to the jabo auger dweeb. I mean, how many vet furballers have a k/d of less than 1? Ergo, most furballers increase team K/D and cannot be attributed to a side having less than a 1 K/D.
you mainly vulch suppressed fields.
Are we talking about Leviathn here? I've found him all over the map. I'm sure he vulches just like anyone else, but to say "mainly" I think is unfair....inaccurate.
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Well, I meant that crack about people who land jokingly of course. I could land quite a bit more, though I would still get kilt much more than not even if I made a serious attempt to RTB every mission.
I also switch countries a lot.
Country Kills As Kills Of
Bishop 34 20
Knight 46 49
Rook 33 44
Dont know exactly why I have more "of" and "as" Knights since most of the time I dont even know what side I am on when I fly. I just log on, check the roster and go to the side with the least numbers. Still, my numbers are fairly even really, one 5" CV gun mission netted 13 or 14 kills, I forget, so that alone can throw off the stats.
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Or straight to the point of my goal, my quest, my ambition...
When there is 5 or 6 badguys circling above a lone goodguy, and one at a time they drop in and die to his guns..
When the last one left finally dives in and dies..
I want to "feel" what he sees spelled out in the buffer..
WHOOT !!
Bring it !!
Cya's up.
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Poop can you make any more sense!?
Ladies and gents, this guy has it all figured out. He has found the balance... a veteran of the fight... a yogi you might say. Buddhists everywhere aspire to be him.
! :D
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Rookies die just as easily as any Knitwit/Bishop in this game and those stats are like ranks, virtually meaningless.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Steve
There are just as many furballers on each side. Not only that, a furballer probably increases overall K/D, say compared to the jabo auger dweeb. I mean, how many vet furballers have a k/d of less than 1? Ergo, most furballers increase team K/D and cannot be attributed to a side having less than a 1 K/D.
That's a fact steve, most furballers manage to at least take 1 out with them before they die. Shane is a great example of someone who almost never lands but has a decent k/d ratio. The best furballers have good k/d ratios, they just haveta take a few with them before their E runs out and they get swamped and die.
Each country has these people. To say Bishops have more, therefore that's why their statistics are completely inferior just doesn't make any sense. The more furballers the better for overall country K/D. With that in mind I would suspect Rooks actually have the majority of the skilled furballers. What Bishops have the majority of is people who aren't successfull at killing in the MA so out of sheer frustration cultivate that, "Piss in the other guy's cornflakes mentality" then proceed to pork and auger into fuel bunkers 24/7and do HQ dar runs all day long.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Shane
you're a nomad, it doesn't take much. even a wee bit of runway does it for ya.
:)
We dont even need a runway :)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have watched you with one of my 'shades' accounts, you mainly vulch suppressed fields.
Zazen
ZAZEN ,
TODD flies exactly how I tell him to fly. I have implanted a device in his large cranial cavity thru which I send signals telling him how to fly his plane. I taught TODD everything he knows. There is also an electric plug in TODD ( You guess where) that gives him a severe jolt if and when he vulches. Therefore his vulching is a very small part of his overall flying day as he is pretty much a wuss about pain.
Dr Lew
Master and inventor of the Shock Flying System
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Originally posted by Zazen13
...But, we are dealing with a total of almost 7 million kills and 7 million deaths in 2003...
:eek: 7 million deaths in 1 year?! That is genocide! :D
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zazen.... LOL "watched you with one of my shades accounts".... yeah... so friggin worried about looking bad that you have to have shades accpounts? what, is that the one where you have fun as to break all the tension and stress of flying with the higher motives that "zazen" (whoever he is) is married too?
why not just fly the way that is fun under your real handle?
typical rook.
and it is I who have control over the way DMF flies..
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by MadBirdCZ
:eek: 7 million deaths in 1 year?! That is genocide! :D
The actual numbers for 2003 are:
Kills: 6,931,792
Deaths: 6,945,138
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Originally posted by lazs2
zazen.... LOL "watched you with one of my shades accounts".... yeah... so friggin worried about looking bad that you have to have shades accpounts? what, is that the one where you have fun as to break all the tension and stress of flying with the higher motives that "zazen" (whoever he is) is married too?
why not just fly the way that is fun under your real handle?
typical rook.
and it is I who have control over the way DMF flies..
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Yes, but I can get a controversial thread fired up faster than a cat can lick it's arse! ;)
Zazen (Lord of the Trolls)
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Originally posted by Shane
doing my part to keep rooks' ratios down...
307 Kills of Rooks
99 Deaths by Rooks
:)
Just as I am doing my part to keep Rooks ratio's UP....
Total Kills this Camp: 304
Total Deaths this Camp: 17
K/D for the Camp:17.90 to 1
Kills of Bishops:222
Deaths to Bishops: 11
K/D vs. Bishops: 20.20 to 1
Bishops K/D vs. Zazen: 0.03 to 1
Kills of Knights: 82
Deaths to Knights: 6
K/D vs. Knights:13.67 to 1
Knights K/D vs. Zazen:0.07 to 1
For comparison's sake , just to add some statistical perspective, Shane has a 3.10 K/D vs. Rooks. Not be-littling Shane,he's a great flyer, but a 3.10 to 1 K/D does not deviate from the average enough to be remarkable in any way.
I am just your average Rook, so you can see how we are as effective as we are. This was also a very poor camp for me. I was very rusty from a 10-day Hawaai vacation .:aok
Zazen :D
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LoL what a bunch of maroons. Bow to the almighty Rooks, Please Horde noobs.:rofl
Nopoop you are quite right. There is nothing better then taking a guy who has to have an advantage, flying under him only to have him dive in and die. There is nothing better and no better smackin the face than this. So all you fly high and die types keep up the good work.
Your right poop it is a drug. Once you get the skills to stay alive on the bottom you never want to waste all that time climbing again.
Also I have noticed a nice trend with the rook hordes, since there are so many noobs etc loggin rook these days I have seen alot of the more skilled vets switching to the usually out numbered side. Mostly to knights. It has been awsome flying with the more skilled vets. you guys.
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Originally posted by mars01
LoL what a bunch of maroons. Bow to the almighty Rooks, Please Horde noobs.:rofl
Nopoop you are quite right. There is nothing better then taking a guy who has to have an advantage, flying under him only to have him dive in and die. There is nothing better and no better smackin the face than this. So all you fly high and die types keep up the good work.
Your right poop it is a drug. Once you get the skills to stay alive on the bottom you never want to waste all that time climbing again.
Also I have noticed a nice trend with the rook hordes, since there are so many noobs etc loggin rook these days I have seen alot of the more skilled vets switching to the usually out numbered side. Mostly to knights. It has been awsome flying with the more skilled vets. you guys.
Actually, being one that actually plays on Rooks, I have to say you're wrong. There are more veterans on Rooks now than ever. In fact, just last night a long time Knight came Rooks, said he was fed up with the knit BS and couldn't take it anymore...Wonder what that was all about? That's about to 200th time I've heard an ex-knight say that. You guys need to work on public relations a bit more I guess ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by mars01
LoL what a bunch of maroons. Bow to the almighty Rooks, Please Horde noobs.:rofl
Also I have noticed a nice trend with the rook hordes, since there are so many noobs etc loggin rook these days I have seen alot of the more skilled vets switching to the usually out numbered side. Mostly to knights. It has been awsome flying with the more skilled vets. you guys.
lol not poking at anyone in particular, but i see this alot, "Rook Horde This Rook Horde that" just cause the Rooks usually have more numbers than other countries it doesnt mean Bish or Nitwits dont attack in Hordes. I think its getting pretty stale in my book. If you dont like Hordes dont fight in one, no reason to whine about it constantly. And im the 1st one to notice the Hordes since i Decide to fight in those kind of fights. Maybe switching to different country for a day will prove that every country "hordes" the same.
Since most nitwits are on a greater skill level then the rooks, shouldnt we get the upperhand when it comes to engaging? We come in High and fast you can be the low bogie, with a reverse or two you should be able to get us with your superior ACM tactics...
My 2 cents.......
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LOLH,
Whos whineing - I'm calling a black kettle black. I did not say that the knights or Bish dont horde. You guys are little sensative about it I guess:rofl
Since most nitwits are on a greater skill level then the rooks, shouldnt we get the upperhand when it comes to engaging?
What?
We come in High and fast you can be the low bogie, with a reverse or two you should be able to get us with your superior ACM tactics...
Yep
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In fact, just last night a long time Knight came Rooks, said he was fed up with the knit BS and couldn't take it anymore...Wonder what that was all about?
Unless you got a name your point is worthless
That's about to 200th time I've heard an ex-knight say that.
Yeah I'm sure :rofl
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you should be able to get us with your superior ACM tactics...
Especially when your noob butt comes diving in .... ;)
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Whos whineing - I'm calling a black kettle black. I did not say that the knights or Bish dont horde. You guys are little sensative about it I guess
I must be going blind then... I always tend to see "Rook Horde This Rook Horde that" and its usually coming from the same people. ( Knights )
What?
Same sentance.
Since most nitwits are on a greater skill level then the rooks, shouldnt we get the upperhand when it comes to engaging?We come in High and fast you can be the low bogie, with a reverse or two you should be able to get us with your superior ACM tactics...
Yep
Wish more of you BS BBS talkers used your guns to prove a point. Easy to say how good you are, but yet i dont see it proven in the MA that often. Talk is Cheap and it always will be, not matter how much whining you care to use on this board.
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Wish more of you BS BBS talkers used your guns to prove a point. Easy to say how good you are, but yet i dont see it proven in the MA that often. Talk is Cheap and it always will be, not matter how much whining you care to use on this board.
My God WldThing for as good as you are... Geezz just having a little fun with such a stupid post.
If you really think the Rooks are so much better than the Bish or Knights because of these stats, well then I guess I miss read your character and brains.:D
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If you really think the Rooks are so much better than the Bish or Knights because of these stats,...
That's the intriguing thing really. I doubt there is much difference between the 3 teams at all. I wonder(briefly) about the disparity in kills.
The absurdity of some of the rationalization in this thread is
amusing, I hope it continues. :D
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Originally posted by Steve
That's the intriguing thing really. I doubt there is much difference between the 3 teams at all. I wonder(briefly) about the disparity in kills.
My God, I'm trying my best to even up the numbers by vulching and gangbanging non-stop in my easymode Dweebfire, but I'm just one man!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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the whole horde thing is kinda old. when ya log into a small map, you see it from all 3 sides, there is usually so many people and only a few fields where there is action at. so when i log on, i go where the action is, not to a undefended field to fight buildings. When ya log onto a big map, its the same thing. only a few fields where there is action. it seems to be the nature of the game, go where there is action. i dont see the problem with that. one on ones just dont happen in the main arena too often because of that. mebbe a smaller arena, much like AW fighter town would solve some of this. an arena with smaller numbers allowed in it, so smaller level fighting would take place. other than that as an alternative, the "horde" will always be there, for all countries, just because people log in and go to where the action is.
my 2 cents
~S~
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Originally posted by mars01
Unless you got a name your point is worthless
Yeah I'm sure :rofl
I don't want to name names, that would not be proper, but it is a fact. Choose to believe me or not, your choice.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Steve
That's the intriguing thing really. I doubt there is much difference between the 3 teams at all. I wonder(briefly) about the disparity in kills.
The absurdity of some of the rationalization in this thread is
amusing, I hope it continues. :D
Don't worry Steve it will ;) . I will make sure of it :aok
Zazen
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
My God, I'm trying my best to even up the numbers by vulching and gangbanging non-stop in my easymode Dweebfire, but I'm just one man!
-- Todd/Leviathn
You are doing a great job at that Todd, keep it up!
Zazen
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I don't want to name names, that would not be proper, but it is a fact. Choose to believe me or not, your choice.
How Gay, whatever. Why wouldn't it be proper, he left the knights, if he said it on Rook channel is it really a big secret.
Again more Zazen BS.
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Lol Todd.
Try a vulch in a niki... with all that ammo and ability to get around quickly I assume (have only flown a nik twice) that it must be about the bset vulcher around.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
You are doing a great job at that Todd, keep it up!
I sure would like to try out this "furball" thing I've heard so much about, but I'm afraid it would hurt my K/D ratio. I'd best just stick to vulching; I wouldn't want to hurt my fragile ego or anything.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Steve
Try a vulch in a niki... with all that ammo and ability to get around quickly I assume (have only flown a nik twice) that it must be about the bset vulcher around.
That's definitely a vulch machine. I flew the two-cannoned 190A5 a little bit near the end of last tour and was also amazed at its ammo longevity. I was able to bag 8 or 9 kills in half the cannon ammo load... and that was only gangbanging rather than vulching!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by mars01
My God WldThing for as good as you are... Geezz just having a little fun with such a stupid post.
If you really think the Rooks are so much better than the Bish or Knights because of these stats, well then I guess I miss read your character and brains.:D
I dont where i proclaimed that rooks are the almighty country.. Care to point that one out?
Dont skim the water if you wont jump in...
My character and brains have nothing to do with this, im merely calling it as i go, and the way i see it is, you die too often to hordes and therefore you piss and moan on the bbs thinking it will get better if you do so..
This may not be intended for you mars, im just stating my opinion.
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Just as food for thought here are the January (2004) statistics.
Rook Kills Vs. All:262,736
Rook Deaths Vs. All:238,547
Rook Kills/Death:1.10
Bishop Kills Vs. All:216,717
Bishop Deaths Vs. All:246,801
Bishop Kills/Death:0.87
Knight Kills Vs. All:239,960
Knight Deaths Vs. All:234,067
Knight Kills/Death:1.02
Rook K/D Vs. Bishop:1.13
Rook K/D Vs. Knight:1.06
Bishop K/D Vs. Rook: 0.87
Bishop K/D Vs. Knight:0.87
Knight K/D Vs. Rook: 0.93
Knight K/D Vs. Bishop:1.13
* As you can see the January statistics are very consistant with the entire 2003 year-end statistics. Actually, Bishop K/D is exactly the same as their 2003 total K/D. Similarily, Knights salvaged a reasonable margin on Bishops by being far more effective Vs. Bishops than Vs. Rooks. While Bishops may totally lack relative effectiveness they do get points for being consistant, consistantly bad but, consistant nonetheless ;)
Zazen
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Great stats Zazen. My kill numbers reflect upon your results as well. Generally have a lower K/D against the knits than the bish.
I have to laugh at the hord comments. I've said it before, the Rooks appear to be the only country who have actually organized country wide, specifically RJO. Rook hords often have somekind of loose organization to it. For the knits and bish who don't like it, organize your own hord. For the Rooks who don't like it, go knit or bish.
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Originally posted by WldThing
lol not poking at anyone in particular, but i see this alot, "Rook Horde This Rook Horde that" just cause the Rooks usually have more numbers than other countries it doesnt mean Bish or Nitwits dont attack in Hordes. I think its getting pretty stale in my book. If you dont like Hordes dont fight in one, no reason to whine about it constantly. And im the 1st one to notice the Hordes since i Decide to fight in those kind of fights. Maybe switching to different country for a day will prove that every country "hordes" the same.
Since most nitwits are on a greater skill level then the rooks, shouldnt we get the upperhand when it comes to engaging? We come in High and fast you can be the low bogie, with a reverse or two you should be able to get us with your superior ACM tactics...
My 2 cents.......
Just as an addendum. As a reasonable facsimile or simulation of WW2 airiel conflict AH actually succeeds in this very respect. Engagements typically involved at least 30 to 40 aircraft. On average a 16 man flight was typical for each side. Engagements involving fewer planes were very rare indeed, and isolated 1 Vs. 1 engagements were extremely rare, just as they are in our MA. In fact during the Battle of Britain and later in the war in Europe an engagement may have involved thousands of aircraft engaged in a relatively finite area.
In short squadron tactics actually equated to airiel gang warfare in practice. So, one horde fighting another over a finite area or strategic facility is incredibly realistic.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I sure would like to try out this "furball" thing I've heard so much about, but I'm afraid it would hurt my K/D ratio. I'd best just stick to vulching; I wouldn't want to hurt my fragile ego or anything.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yes, that would probably be best for you, good thinking sir ;)
Zazen
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I dont where i proclaimed that rooks are the almighty country.. Care to point that one out?
Isn't that what this thread is all about.
My character and brains have nothing to do with this, im merely calling it as i go, and the way i see it is, you die too often to hordes and therefore you piss and moan on the bbs thinking it will get better if you do so..
Your right your brains have nothing to do with what you post:D (OK was a cheap shot but I could not resist :D )
I love the hordes, like I have stated in many posts, I fly to the biggest red dar bar I can find and fight as long as I can because I hate fighting my own guys for kills and for me it is the only way to get better. I am not crying about the hordes just calling them where I see them. Although you are right there are alot that cry about them here.
This may not be intended for you mars, im just stating my opinion.
That's cool wld I always enjoy running into you and your squad mates :D
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DMF... you are pretty skilless and timid but... you will know you are truly a master of gaming the game when you achieve oh, say, 17 or so to one K/D in nothing but the fastest planes and have to have several shades accounts in order to enjoy the game.
lazs
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I wish HT would make a 4th country so I didn't have to fly with any of you.
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Oh ya, exactly what is a "shade" account anyway? another name for a second.. third account? Never really understood why a person would need more than one account
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Why do i have a feeling this whole thread was just a front, so zazen could post his stats to show how great he is to the world.
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Originally posted by Steve
Oh ya, exactly what is a "shade" account anyway? another name for a second.. third account? Never really understood why a person would need more than one account
Because they aint good enough to Fly with the Big Dogs , and have to kill something that cant get off the porch.
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Originally posted by mars01
Your right your brains have nothing to do with what you post:D (OK was a cheap shot but I could not resist :D )
Exactly... If the whines changed once in a while, it may actually involve some brain activity on my part, but since its always the same BS it doesnt require much thought.
Originally posted by mars01 I love the hordes, like I have stated in many posts, I fly to the biggest red dar bar I can find and fight as long as I can because I hate fighting my own guys for kills and for me it is the only way to get better. I am not crying about the hordes just calling them where I see them. Although you are right there are alot that cry about them here.
I dont know mars....
""Please Horde noobs.
Also I have noticed a nice trend with the rook hordes, since there are so many noobs etc loggin rook these days I have seen alot of the more skilled vets switching to the usually out numbered side""
Back to what you wrote, i dont see how "Also i have noticed a nice trend with the rook hordes" is not a cry, just a slightly gazed one so its not easily recognized nonetheless.
And just as your calling out on the hordes you see, im calling out on the whines i see.
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Originally posted by Steve
Oh ya, exactly what is a "shade" account anyway? another name for a second.. third account? Never really understood why a person would need more than one account
It comes from the old AW days when you could have multiple screen names etc. I am an "Art of War" kind of person. I believe in knowing my enemy. What better way to know him than get in his skin and fly around for a while, fly with him, film him, even loose deuce with him without him even realizing who you are? Heck, one of my Bishop and two of my Knight accounts are even in squadrons, premier squadrons, and they have no clue ;) You glean some very very intriguing information about the other countries, squadrons and their pilots respective flying styles.
I also use different accounts for different things, for example, if I want to work on a plane I am unfamiliar with I will use one of my shades accounts until I become proficient. Similarily, I use shades accounts to warm-up for the day so when I get on Zazen, my aim, SA, sense of deflection etc. are already keyed up for action. Bear in mind I only have one computer, I do not use these accounts for any clandestine purpose, mainly just for practice.
Zazen
P.S. it's not shade..it's shades, as in dark sunglasses, so no one knows who you are ;)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It comes from the old AW days when you could have multiple screen names etc.
I also use different accounts for different things, for example, if I want to work on a plane I am unfamiliar with I will use one of my shades accounts until I become proficient.
Zazen
shades were mainly used by people associated with running/developing the game so they wouldn't unnecessarily be bothered while they're merely trying to have a bit of fun.
as for your declared reason, at least the one i quoted above...
all i can really do is :rolleyes:
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Well Zazen, sorry to intrude on your conversation aswell... But if there happens to be someone thats "shading" on me..
I vulch
I cherry Pick
I HO
I BnZ
I fly a runstang
I fly a Dweebfire
I Pork fuel if i have to
I suicide CV"s if i have to
I choose to fly into hordes and accept my consequences..
And i do it all cause i have the RIGHT to!
And that is all :D .. Sorry zazen, continue on :)
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Originally posted by WldThing
Well Zazen, sorry to intrude on your conversation aswell... But if there happens to be someone thats "shading" on me..
I vulch
I cherry Pick
I HO
I BnZ
I fly a runstang
I fly a Dweebfire
I Pork fuel if i have to
I suicide CV"s if i have to
I choose to fly into hordes and accept my consequences..
And i do it all cause i have the RIGHT to!
And that is all :D .. Sorry zazen, continue on :)
Not at all Wildthing, I appreciate a man who comes clean. Todd did the same thing earlier, I'm sure he feels better now too. It's the preachers that spout off under the false pretense that their ***** don't stink that need a reality check. Just remember, Big Brother is WATCHING! ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Not at all Wildthing, I appreciate a man who comes clean. Todd did the same thing earlier, I'm sure he feels better now too. It's the preachers that spout off under the false pretense that their ***** don't stink that need a reality check. Just remember, Big Brother is WATCHING! ;)
Oh, this is rich. I challenge you, Zazen, to find anywhere where I've written about how I just fly one particular way and that this way is better than others. I also ask that you find where I deny vulching, gangbanging, chute shooting, HOing, or any other sort of behavior.
God, you're a tard.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Zazen13
...Heck, one of my Bishop and two of my Knight accounts are even in squadrons, premier squadrons, and they have no clue...
What is a "premier" squadron?
... I also use different accounts for different things, for example, if I want to work on a plane I am unfamiliar with I will use one of my shades accounts until I become proficient. Similarily, I use shades accounts to warm-up for the day so when I get on Zazen, my aim, SA, sense of deflection etc. are already keyed up for action...
That is some freaky **** to do just for a video game.
Must be a bummer to have gone through all that and still not get the respect you craved.
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Originally posted by Furious
What is a "premier" squadron?
That is some freaky **** to do just for a video game.
Must be a bummer to have gone through all that and still not get the respect you craved.
Has not thing one to do with respect. I'm just an over-achiever who strives for perfection. Nothing particular to AH, I am like that in every facet of my life. My financial success is built upon that virtue, and it serves me equally well in AH.
I will use each and every tool at my disposal if I believe it will enrich my experience and/or bring me closer to my archetypical ideal of perfection.:aok
Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a life-long obsession I have had with World War 2 history. It is more than a video game to me, it is the immersive embodiment of a lifelong passion. I read every book I can find on WW2, buy all the collector videos, study works on Fighter Combat and first hand accounts. Several members of my family fought for the British in WW2, this is my way of remembering them, and paying tribute to their sacrafice. It's almost a religous experience for me, for that I give my ultimate best effort, it goes far beyond mere idle entertainment.
It is from this perspective that I endeavor to draw parallels between the AH experience and the experience of the real pilots in WW2. Mulling over our statistics and fully understanding the dynamics of combat in its various forms in AH gives me insight into WW2 airiel combat I couldn't possibly get without having actually lived it myself. "A taste of the Past", the golden era of combat aviation is how I think of it. This exercise is becoming increasingly important as WW2 is rapidly vanishing from living memory. Soon it will be only a part of written history. It is through games like AH that the memory stays alive in an abstract form of hero worship. I give Civil War re-enactments as an apt parallel as the Civil war vanished from living oral history some 20 years ago. AH, is a WW2 re-enactment in various forms.
I am fully aware most do not take it as seriously as I do. I realize most just approach AH with the same testosterone soaked vim and vigor as they would a game of Quake or Ms. Pac Man, I came to that stark realization years ago. I just get frustrated when the unrealistic play of some is so blatant it sullies and bastardizes that immersive feel of role-playing an actual WW2 fighter pilot fighting for home, country, and my very life.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Just as food for thought here are the January (2004) statistics.
Rook Kills Vs. All:262,736
Rook Deaths Vs. All:238,547
Rook Kills/Death:1.10
Bishop Kills Vs. All:216,717
Bishop Deaths Vs. All:246,801
Bishop Kills/Death:0.87
Knight Kills Vs. All:239,960
Knight Deaths Vs. All:234,067
Knight Kills/Death:1.02
Rook K/D Vs. Bishop:1.13
Rook K/D Vs. Knight:1.06
Bishop K/D Vs. Rook: 0.87
Bishop K/D Vs. Knight:0.87
Knight K/D Vs. Rook: 0.93
Knight K/D Vs. Bishop:1.13
* As you can see the January statistics are very consistant with the entire 2003 year-end statistics. Actually, Bishop K/D is exactly the same as their 2003 total K/D. Similarily, Knights salvaged a reasonable margin on Bishops by being far more effective Vs. Bishops than Vs. Rooks. While Bishops may totally lack relative effectiveness they do get points for being consistant, consistantly bad but, consistant nonetheless ;)
Zazen
Zazen,
I can't help but notice that the total kills represented here is
719,413
while MiniD's fighter vs. fighter stats show as the total number of kills for the same tour
324,712
The number of fighter kills on fighter is less than half the total number of kills.
If you restricted your analysis to just those fighter on fighter kills, I wonder how it skews the per country numbers...
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Originally posted by Zazen13
For comparison's sake , just to add some statistical perspective, Shane has a 3.10 K/D vs. Rooks. Not be-littling Shane,he's a great flyer, but a 3.10 to 1 K/D does not deviate from the average enough to be remarkable in any way.
I am just your average Rook, so you can see how we are as effective as we are. This was also a very poor camp for me. I was very rusty from a 10-day Hawaai vacation .:aok
Zazen :D
Also compare your flying style with Shane's. Shane has a more aggressive flying style than your timid one. So to add perspective your stats in relation to Shane's is meaningless. Also, how many of your kills were in a ground vehicle or as a gunner? I'm willing to bet that close to half of your kills were either in a GV or manned ack (field or CV).
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Zazen13
... I also use different accounts for different things, for example, if I want to work on a plane I am unfamiliar with I will use one of my shades accounts until I become proficient. Similarily, I use shades accounts to warm-up for the day so when I get on Zazen, my aim, SA, sense of deflection etc. are already keyed up for action...
Dude is your last name Kazinsky, Bundy, Burkawitz or Voss. Holy crap, HiTech must love guys like you. Shade accounts, give me break. You got it bad dude really bad.:rofl
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Originally posted by Steve
Lol Todd.
Try a vulch in a niki... with all that ammo and ability to get around quickly I assume (have only flown a nik twice) that it must be about the bset vulcher around.
I've found out that if it wasn't for the crappy guns on the Ju-87, that sucker would be a great vulch plane. If we had the Ju-87D-5 with the wing mounted 20mm cannons, the Stuka would be the ultimate vulture.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Has not thing one to do with respect. I'm just an over-achiever who strives for perfection. Nothing particular to AH, I am like that in every facet of my life. My financial success is built upon that virtue, and it serves me equally well in AH.
I will use each and every tool at my disposal if I believe it will enrich my experience and/or bring me closer to my archetypical ideal of perfection.:aok
Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a life-long obsession I have had with World War 2 history. It is more than a video game to me, it is the immersive embodiment of a lifelong passion. I read every book I can find on WW2, buy all the collector videos, study works on Fighter Combat and first hand accounts. Several members of my family fought for the British in WW2, this is my way of remembering them, and paying tribute to their sacrafice. It's almost a religous experience for me, for that I give my ultimate best effort, it goes far beyond mere idle entertainment.
It is from this perspective that I endeavor to draw parallels between the AH experience and the experience of the real pilots in WW2. Mulling over our statistics and fully understanding the dynamics of combat in its various forms in AH gives me insight into WW2 airiel combat I couldn't possibly get without having actually lived it myself. "A taste of the Past", the golden era of combat aviation is how I think of it. This exercise is becoming increasingly important as WW2 is rapidly vanishing from living memory. Soon it will be only a part of written history. It is through games like AH that the memory stays alive in an abstract form of hero worship. I give Civil War re-enactments as an apt parallel as the Civil war vanished from living oral history some 20 years ago. AH, is a WW2 re-enactment in various forms.
I am fully aware most do not take it as seriously as I do. I realize most just approach AH with the same testosterone soaked vim and vigor as they would a game of Quake or Ms. Pac Man, I came to that stark realization years ago. I just get frustrated when the unrealistic play of some is so blatant it sullies and bastardizes that immersive feel of role-playing an actual WW2 fighter pilot fighting for home, country, and my very life.
Zazen
Zazen, you were a headcase in AW and clearly it hasn't changed.
Since you are into realism, do us all a favor. Start your tour and as soon as someone kills you, end it. Then show us your stats. I wonder how aggressive you'll be and how much running you'll do.
LOL re-enactment my eye. Let's stick you in a freezer on oxygen while throwing real G forces and weather at you along with the potential for mechanical failure and the possibility of a 20mm cannon shell exploding in the freezer with you now and then.
Of course you'd probably get killed by some vulcher like Todd anyway so the previous would be pointless :)
Hate to break it to ya but this is just a game and will remain just a game no matter how vivid your imagination.
Dan/Slack
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>>Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a life-long obsession I have had with World War 2 history. It is more than a video game to me, it is the immersive embodiment of a lifelong passion. <<
Its paintball to me.
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Originally posted by Samiam
Zazen,
I can't help but notice that the total kills represented here is
719,413
while MiniD's fighter vs. fighter stats show as the total number of kills for the same tour
324,712
The number of fighter kills on fighter is less than half the total number of kills.
If you restricted your analysis to just those fighter on fighter kills, I wonder how it skews the per country numbers...
Check it for yourself i took the numbers right off the score page here on HTC's website. Furthermore, check the statistics at the top of this thread, never has any country scored less than 150,000 kills/camp, not even Bishops who struggle to kill at all. 324,712 total kill would be 100,000 for each team on average, that's just not correct.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Zazen, you were a headcase in AW and clearly it hasn't changed.
Since you are into realism, do us all a favor. Start your tour and as soon as someone kills you, end it. Then show us your stats. I wonder how aggressive you'll be and how much running you'll do.
LOL re-enactment my eye. Let's stick you in a freezer on oxygen while throwing real G forces and weather at you along with the potential for mechanical failure and the possibility of a 20mm cannon shell exploding in the freezer with you now and then.
Of course you'd probably get killed by some vulcher like Todd anyway so the previous would be pointless :)
Hate to break it to ya but this is just a game and will remain just a game no matter how vivid your imagination.
Dan/Slack
Umm, that's like saying those guys re-enacting Gettysburg aren't really re-enacting because they didn't march 50 miles, eat stale bread for 3 weeks and get crotch rot before they did it with live ammunition. Nice argument, try agian.
As for the dying thing, strange you mention that. That is actually my magnum opus, my dream, to go an entire camp without a death or capture. One day perhaps, I have only been playing Aces High just over a year, give me a bit more time to practice ;)
Took me almost 7 years of AW to approach that goal.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Check it for yourself i took the numbers right off the score page here on HTC's website. Furthermore, check the statistics at the top of this thread, never has any country scored less than 150,000 kills/camp, not even Bishops who struggle to kill at all. 324,712 total kill would be 100,000 for each team on average, that's just not correct.
Eh? I just looked through last tour's stats and ground vehicles easily make up this difference. Panzers alone had almost 75,000 kills, Ostwinds 46,000 kills, PT Boats almost 11,000 kills, M-16s over 10,000 kills, and manned guns over 31,000 kills. That doesn't even count kills by other ground vehicles (Tigers, LVTs, M-3s, M-8s) and all types of bombers.
I can see those easily making up the differences.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Eh? I just looked through last tour's stats and ground vehicles easily make up this difference. Panzers alone had almost 75,000 kills, Ostwinds 46,000 kills, PT Boats almost 11,000 kills, M-16s over 10,000 kills, and manned guns over 31,000 kills. That doesn't even count kills by other ground vehicles (Tigers, LVTs, M-3s, M-8s) and all types of bombers.
I can see those easily making up the differences.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yup, this post is about total kills. Not just aircraft kills, total kills.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Also compare your flying style with Shane's. Shane has a more aggressive flying style than your timid one. So to add perspective your stats in relation to Shane's is meaningless. Also, how many of your kills were in a ground vehicle or as a gunner? I'm willing to bet that close to half of your kills were either in a GV or manned ack (field or CV).
ack-ack
AKAK - wrong again , sorry to disappoint, had 86 kills in ostwind and 1 kill in a field gun of my 304 kills.The 86 ostwind kills were all aircraft and I did that in only 36 sorties landing 31 of those 36 sorties. ;)
Anyways, I am not disputing Shane and I have divergent styles, but he was the one that posted his kill stats to make a point. I was merely commenting on them while providing mine for some comparison and perspective. Shane's kills were almost entirely in P51D and La7 does that make those kills count any less? I think not. This entire post is based on Total kills.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, this post is about total kills. Not just aircraft kills, total kills.
True, but I'm pointing out that vehicle and bomber kills explain the difference between MiniD's fighter vs. fighter numbers and the total numbers you presented. There's no mystery here.
I have no idea what removing ground vehicles and bombers would do to the number of kills or the K/D ratio for each country.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
True, but I'm pointing out that vehicle and bomber kills explain the difference between MiniD's fighter vs. fighter numbers and the total numbers you presented. There's no mystery here.
I have no idea what removing ground vehicles and bombers would do to the number of kills or the K/D ratio for each country.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Good question, maybe MiniD can give us the answer. There is no inherent provision within the HTC website score pages to differentiate between the different kill types (that works yet). When you try to access the Country Vs. Country detailed breakdown section of the score page it says, "Coming Soon", as it has since I joined Aces High over a year ago.I would LOVE to crunch those numbers if they were available. Maybe after AH2 is released HiTech will devote some programming time to getting that up and running finally.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
.
As for the dying thing, strange you mention that. That is actually my magnum opus, my dream, to go an entire camp without a death or capture. One day perhaps, I have only been playing Aces High just over a year, give me a bit more time to practice ;)
Took me almost 7 years of AW to approach that goal.
Zazen
And all that says is a lot of guys are doing the work down low, while you wait to cherry pick. What kind of 'teammate" does that make you? It implies that you are so intent on your score, and your own 'dream', that a pilot in trouble shouldn't expect your help.
So that means you are high alt, in the fastest ride you can find.
Dan/Slack
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"Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a life-long obsession I have had with World War 2 history. It is more than a video game to me, it is the immersive embodiment of a lifelong passion. I read every book I can find on WW2, buy all the collector videos, study works on Fighter Combat and first hand accounts. Several members of my family fought for the British in WW2, this is my way of remembering them, and paying tribute to their sacrafice. It's almost a religous experience for me, for that I give my ultimate best effort, it goes far beyond mere idle entertainment...
Zazen I read that, kicked back in my chair, shook my head and said to myself.. "Jeez this guys a full blown geek"
Then I looked around and saw the six WWII aircraft and the Huey hanging in my den..along with the signed litho's..
Sat and admired my own wittle nazi's that adorn my computer area....the Tiger tank on my scanner..
Went into the kitchen to grab a cheap cold one and saw the M40 helmut I'm in the process of painting and aging..
And came to the cold hard realization THAT I'M A FUGGIN GEEK TOO !!!
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Originally posted by Guppy35
And all that says is a lot of guys are doing the work down low, while you wait to cherry pick. What kind of 'teammate" does that make you? It implies that you are so intent on your score, and your own 'dream', that a pilot in trouble shouldn't expect your help.
So that means you are high alt, in the fastest ride you can find.
Dan/Slack
Not at all, I almost never go above 20k, my favorite A vs. A plane is the Typhoon which sucks up high, I like to keep it under 18k actually. I will drop to deck to clear anyone's six. I have the K/D I do because I have great SA. In fact, I consider clearing peoples' sixes a top priority, nice juicy fixated target ;) Nothing I do requires I stay at 30k and don't help anyone.
Zazen
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Originally posted by nopoop
"Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a life-long obsession I have had with World War 2 history. It is more than a video game to me, it is the immersive embodiment of a lifelong passion. I read every book I can find on WW2, buy all the collector videos, study works on Fighter Combat and first hand accounts. Several members of my family fought for the British in WW2, this is my way of remembering them, and paying tribute to their sacrafice. It's almost a religous experience for me, for that I give my ultimate best effort, it goes far beyond mere idle entertainment...
Zazen I read that, kicked back in my chair, shook my head and said to myself.. "Jeez this guys a full blown geek"
Then I looked around and saw the six WWII aircraft and the Huey hanging in my den..along with the signed litho's..
Sat and admired my own wittle nazi's that adorn my computer area....the Tiger tank on my scanner..
Went into the kitchen to grab a cheap cold one and saw the M40 helmut I'm in the process of painting and aging..
And came to the cold hard realization THAT I'M A FUGGIN GEEK TOO !!!
That's funny, you sound like me. I painted my office sky blue, just so all my hand painted models looked like they were in the air :)
I just love the history of World War 2, and AH is the closest I can get to living it. I get goosebumps everytime I take-off. Wish I could explain it better, people misunderstand me, I think. ;)
It's not just a matter of being a geek, it's about being passionate about something. I am far from a geek in other areas of my life. I am one of the best pool players in my city of half a million people. I am just as passionate about my 9 Ball game as I am about AH
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
AKAK - wrong again , sorry to disappoint, had 86 kills in ostwind and 1 kill in a field gun of my 304 kills.The 86 ostwind kills were all aircraft and I did that in only 36 sorties landing 31 of those 36 sorties. ;)
Anyways, I am not disputing Shane and I have divergent styles, but he was the one that posted his kill stats to make a point. I was merely commenting on them while providing mine for some comparison and perspective. Shane's kills were almost entirely in P51D and La7 does that make those kills count any less? I think not. This entire post is based on Total kills.
Zazen
Again, lets put this in perspective using your stats. 135 of your 304 kills last campaign were either in a ground vehicle or in a manned gun (you forgot the 48 kills you had as a ship's gunner). So only 169 of your kills were in a fighter.
Does the fact the majority of Shane's kills were done while flying a P-51 or La7 diminish his abilities? Nope, because I'm one of those "It's the pilot and not the plane" kind of people.
Now does the fact that almost half of your kills last tour were in either a GV or manned gun diminish your kills? Yes they do. Why? Because you posted this thread thumping your chest to get people to recognize what a uber-l337 pilot you are by posting the country stats and then to later confirm your uber status by posting your kill stats in rebuttal to Shane. The fact is that Shane's stats are derived from air to air combat, while yours is from manning acks and GVs and then occasionally cherry picking and running away in a plane. So by looking at the stats of Shane's and yours, it's easy to spot the better pilot and it's not you.
I wonder what your Fighter vs. Fighter stats would be after a tour? Probably not good enough to post another feeble chest thumping post like this one.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Again, lets put this in perspective using your stats. 135 of your 304 kills last campaign were either in a ground vehicle or in a manned gun (you forgot the 48 kills you had as a ship's gunner). So only 169 of your kills were in a fighter.
Does the fact the majority of Shane's kills were done while flying a P-51 or La7 diminish his abilities? Nope, because I'm one of those "It's the pilot and not the plane" kind of people.
Now does the fact that almost half of your kills last tour were in either a GV or manned gun diminish your kills? Yes they do. Why? Because you posted this thread thumping your chest to get people to recognize what a uber-l337 pilot you are by posting the country stats and then to later confirm your uber status by posting your kill stats in rebuttal to Shane. The fact is that Shane's stats are derived from air to air combat, while yours is from manning acks and GVs and then occasionally cherry picking and running away in a plane. So by looking at the stats of Shane's and yours, it's easy to spot the better pilot and it's not you.
I wonder what your Fighter vs. Fighter stats would be after a tour? Probably not good enough to post another feeble chest thumping post like this one.
ack-ack
First of all, we were never talking about air to air kills only. Where you got that notion I have no clue. Secondly, I wasn't chest thumping, I was expressing my individual statistics in the same format as I expressed the overall statistics, in a word TOTAL kills, which is what this entire thread is about. I never said I was a better anything than anyone, your imagination spewed that forth. I was just demonstrating that Shane's 3 to 1 K/D, as he put it, didn't "keep Rooks stats down" as much as my 18 to 1 K/D helped keep Rooks stats up, period. Whether I got my kills in a La7, Ostwind, a golf cart, or bungie jumping nude, for the purpose of this post about 2003 TOTAL kills my 18 to 1 K/D is 18 X the mean average, his 3 to 1 K/D is only 3 X the mean average.
I have dueled Shane, and knew him for ages in AWFR, I KNOW with great certainty he is a great pilot. He's spanked me enough times to be sure. I was using his post to illustrate an abstract point regarding my statisctical research and relative impact.
You dislike me as a person so are reading a bunch of crap into posts that only exist in your mind. I hate you , you hate me, deal with it and move on.
Oh, and since you asked, my K/D just in Fighters was 12.1 to 1.
Zazen
P.S. AK-AK, I outranked you in fighter again this camp..neener-neener :aok
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I am one of the best pool players in my city of half a million people.
Zazen
Well..
Now we're getting down to it.
I'm slow, I see the purpose now..
The smoke has all been cleared up with that statement.
I see what it's all about.
Zazen..
I have to have my boxer shorts customed tailered. This is done to make allowances for Thumper..
Mr. Happy..
I mean if you gonna talk the walk, let's see the meat..
It's the same in every game. The good ones don't do the talking, the people that have fought them do..
Everyone knows..who the good ones are.
If you have to point it out, you got a long way to go..
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was Rook since they were in the bucket early last year, switched to Knights last tour cause it looked like they could use another 1. Haven't had problems creating shots so far.
interesting insight into your personality Zazen...tho you must realize this all makes great bbs material for every other type A out there to go hang an obnoxious kill ratio on the rooks in February.
cya up. :aok
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Originally posted by Hornet
was Rook since they were in the bucket early last year, switched to Knights last tour cause it looked like they could use another 1. Haven't had problems creating shots so far.
interesting insight into your personality Zazen...tho you must realize this all makes great bbs material for every other type A out there to go hang an obnoxious kill ratio on the rooks in February.
cya up. :aok
That's what I'm hoping ;) The more people flying realistically the better, regardless of what country they fly for :D
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
P.S. AK-AK, I outranked you in fighter again this camp..neener-neener :aok
Since I never have and never will play for rank, what your rank is of no relevance to me. Nor does your higher fighter rank mean you're a good pilot. I, like the majority in this thread, can easily out fly and out fight you.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by nopoop
Well..
Now we're getting down to it.
I'm slow, I see the purpose now..
The smoke has all been cleared up with that statement.
I see what it's all about.
Zazen..
I have to have my boxer shorts customed tailered. This is done to make allowances for Thumper..
Mr. Happy..
I mean if you gonna talk the walk, let's see the meat..
It's the same in every game. The good ones don't do the talking, the people that have fought them do..
Everyone knows..who the good ones are.
If you have to point it out, you got a long way to go..
Has nothing to do with talking about it, just illustrating that being passionate about something, even something other than AH creates success and that success in turn feeds the passion.
Strangley playing pool helps my AH and AH helps my pool game, it's all about angles and deflection in both.
As far as my prowess at AH is concerned, I know I am no where near the best, never pretended to be. Most of the serious players have been playing AH 3 times as long as myself. What I am trying to promote in this thread and others is a more conscientious AH that serves to create an atmosphere more closely resembling the era we are simulating, not one that detracts from it. I believe HiTech thinks along a similiar vein, that is how the Tour of Duty concept was conceived.
I love AH, I love the community, this genre and specifically this product has tremendous promise. We must just be wary of selling ourselves and the experience short for the sake of a short sighted lust for immediate gratification.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Since I never have and never will play for rank, what your rank is of no relevance to me. Nor does your higher fighter rank mean you're a good pilot. I, like the majority in this thread, can easily out fly and out fight you.
ack-ack
SUUUUREEEEEE! ;)
Whatever you say Mr. Wonderful :D
Zazen
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The more people flying realistically the better
Zazen, it's great that you enjoy and find success in your efforts to fly in a way that you term "realistically". I'm glad you found a way to have fun and enjoy striving for certain goals.
But Zazen the point you are missing, and the opposite of the one you are trying to make is: there is no better style of flying than the other.
Your desire for immersion, and how seriously you take your K/D is great for you. But to label other flying styles as unrealistic and "stupid" is downright egocentric.
Look, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. Go ahead and revel in your K/D, I congratulate you in that you are having fun, let the others have fun the way they choose... no need to be critical of others.
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Originally posted by Steve
Zazen, it's great that you enjoy and find success in your efforts to fly in a way that you term "realistically". I'm glad you found a way to have fun and enjoy striving for certain goals.
But Zazen the point you are missing, and the opposite of the one you are trying to make is: there is no better style of flying than the other.
Your desire for immersion, and how seriously you take your K/D is great for you. But to label other flying styles as unrealistic and "stupid" is downright egocentric.
Look, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. Go ahead and revel in your K/D, I congratulate you in that you are having fun, let the others have fun the way they choose... no need to be critical of others.
The only people I would refer to as stupid are those that choose to fly a particular way then get on this board and piss and moan because they get cherry picked or whatever. That to me is rediculous. I would never presume to tell anyone how to fly, but if you want to fly low, slow, into a horde of enemy don't whine for days because some Rook in a higher P51D comes by a cherry picks you. Which is exactly what that last thread was all about.
It's not so much about revelling in a ratio as it is cultivating an environment that is conducive to bringing about a more multi-faceted experience. It's becoming apparent that this is becoming like that book , "Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus", where neither side will ever fully understand the other. The reasons people play AH over any other of the hundreds of massively multiplayer games out there are many. Obviously, as far as HTC is concerned that is a good thing as it brings more $ which in turn allow him to develop the product further.
But, as some noted when AW went from hourly to flat rate as more people, who would not ordinarily choose this type of product, do so it does not necessarily enhance the experience. In fact, usually, as we saw with the free trial HTC had a year or so ago (not the 2 week standard one), opening the flood gates actually makes the gaming experience generally worse for everyone, regardless of individual motives for playing. The general purpose of these posts is to remind everyone not to get lazy and let AH devolve into Air Quake, that just happens to involve WW2 genre equipment. It deserves better than that, a little respect and reverence of a bygone era goes a long way.
I would happily pay $29.95/month if it meant people who only play AH to be spoilers, with no other motive for playing than pissin' in other peoples cornflakes, would move on to something else. That is not to say there is no place for the casual part time player, players like gritz, who fly low and get into furballs with no consideration for survival. His motive is still the love of airiel combat. But, if you are just looking to crash parties or get a quick adrenalin fix there are countless hundreds of games that are free play that would serve that end much better.
Zazen
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Originally posted by nopoop
Well..
Now we're getting down to it.
I have to have my boxer shorts customed tailered. This is done to make allowances for Thumper..
Mr. Happy..
I mean if you gonna talk the walk, let's see the meat..
Poopster......... Let's not :D.
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I think what pisses most people off is the neurotic, timid gamers who look for loopholes in the game and use every advantage and try to mask it with the term "realistic" when "realistic' is the last thing they want. They fly the fastest planes and do everything in the world to avoid a fair fight... when the pressure of being so pompous and uptight gets to be too much for them they get a "shades" account because... they adctually think that people care about their "realistc" timid persona or.... even know who it is.
pitiful... as DMF says.... gawd what a tard! Can you imagine being around this guy in person?
lazs
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"Practice accounts?"
:rofl
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One other thing I think deserves mentioning. Flying "realistically" does not necessarily mean you fly for rank or even care about rank at all for that matter. In fact, flying realistically actually makes it harder to rank higher. I performed an experiment last camp with my Zazen account and my wife's account. With my Zazen account I flew as I usually do with that one, to survive. With my wife's account I flew in the classic, "furball until you drop" mode, rarely landing at all in nothing but TnB planes, even experimenting with planes I have rarely or never flown. Guess what....
Wife's account in "Furball until You Drop" mode.... Fighter Rank 89
Zazen's account in "Fly to Survive" mode....Fighter Rank 131
*Not only that, but it took only 16 hours flown on my wife's account to achieve a higher rank than with the Zazen account in 28 hours flown.
So, this proves a few things, first of all, the sub-ranks that go into the aggregate Fighter rank are far more competitive for the "Fly to Survive" types, specifically the K/D ratio sub-rank. Secondly, my wife's account had almost the exact same hit % as the Zazen account with far less K/D, obviously and slightly fewer kills per sortie, the only other real difference was kills/time. Due to the fact I rarely landed and generally didn't get much altitude before engaging and rarely disengaged to re-alt, kills/time with my wife's account was much higher. So kills/time outweighs the much higher K/D and slightly higher kills/sortie of my Zazen account by a large margin.
My conclusion, after that experiment, flying to "DIE" is actually much easier to do and far easier to rank higher with than "flying to survive". If my motive was to impress people with my godlike rank, and chest-thump, I sure as hell wouldn't try to do it flying to survive, I'd just furball until I either killed everything, ran out of ammunition, or died. Saying people like myself "Fly to Survive" as an attention getting device or some such thing are rediculously off-base from a statistical point-of-view. "Flying to survive" takes longer, requires more forethought, is much harder to rank higher with, and one bad day for a "Fly to survive" type would ruin your score for the whole camp. In the final analysis, "Flying to survive" is actually more thought and time consuming with far less potential reward from a rank/score perspective. People who "Fly to survive" then are doing it primarily for their own personal edification and nothing more.
The other thing to note, and this applies to myself as well as many others typecast as "Fly to Survive" types. Don't assume just because we choose to fly to survive we can't yank and bank with the best of them, we just choose not to as it leaves you needlessly vulnerable to any dweeb with some alt that happens by the fight you are currently engaged in. You don't play these games ten years without being at least moderately proficient at every facet of gameplay. To think otherwise is an exercise in deliberate self-dellusion.
I don't know about anyone else but I learned to TnB LONG before I ever even considered "Flying to Survive". It was only after I became bored with that style that I looked to "flying to survive" as a more tactically complex and realistic approach to airiel combat. The first year I played AW I flew spitfires exclusively, then for the next two years I was yanking and banking in the 109-Franz. It wasn't until I deduced I could glean no more insight into the nuances of airiel combat from this limited vantage I began to fly the Fw190 in "Fly to Survive" mode. I am sure most successfull "Fly to Survive" types have a similiar pattern.
Zazen
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Who the hell is Zazen?
I like the stats though, although I think they'd be more useful broken down by category like fighters, bombers, GVs, manned ack. Or at least planes and GVs/manned ack.
Personally speaking, I've never noticed that much of a difference between the countries, though I have seen that the side with the largest numbers tends to be the side flying the most timidly.
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Nopoop typed:
"Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a life-long obsession I have had with World War 2 history. It is more than a video game to me..."
_____________________________ _____________________________ ________________
A what!!!
OMG!!! :confused:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I can't be!!!
WTF you mean game???
Oh the pain....the pain...:(
:D
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Originally posted by Urchin
Who the hell is Zazen?
I like the stats though, although I think they'd be more useful broken down by category like fighters, bombers, GVs, manned ack. Or at least planes and GVs/manned ack.
Personally speaking, I've never noticed that much of a difference between the countries, though I have seen that the side with the largest numbers tends to be the side flying the most timidly.
Yea, I need to get with MiniD and see if that is possible. The score system within this website has no provision for that yet. Says, "Coming Soon" as it has for over a year. I would LOVE to see a more specific breakdown in the Country Vs. Country format.
Anyways, Zazen is just a board troll who enjoys constructive debate, ignore him. ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think what pisses most people off is the neurotic, timid gamers who look for loopholes in the game and use every advantage and try to mask it with the term "realistic" when "realistic' is the last thing they want. They fly the fastest planes and do everything in the world to avoid a fair fight... when the pressure of being so pompous and uptight gets to be too much for them they get a "shades" account because... they adctually think that people care about their "realistc" timid persona or.... even know who it is.
pitiful... as DMF says.... gawd what a tard! Can you imagine being around this guy in person?
lazs
Lazs, is just one of those types of people who has to get his fingers in every pie. Not going to dignify this prattle with an intelligent response.:aok
Zazen
P.S. I love the Fm2 and do quite well in it thank-you very much, in reference to your post under side-balancing.:D
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Flying to survive" is actually....... less potential reward from a rank/score perspective.
Forgive me if I disagree here. As far as the rank system goes, I think it is pretty darned near evenly balanced for both mindsets.
To counter your assertion, I can give you a name or two of some guys that do well in the ranking, and they really don't furball much, nor do they fly the way they do with an eye on rank.... their rank is merely a byproduct of their flying preferences.(In other words, one doesn't have to fly with the desire to have a high rank to accomplish one, regardless of their flying style.. furballer or .... otherwise.)
IMO the rank system is fine for what I use it for: a means to look up stats on friends/foes.
To drag up an old idea(again): rank can have very little to do w/ how dangerous a person is in the MA. Since we have used Todd and Shane, let's do it again. Both of these guys are so skilled, and so dangerous in the MA that when I run into them, I know after the first merge or two just who it is. I can see a fight and tell you as I approach if Levi is in one of the spitV's there. Bounce shane's La7 and you'll be able to tell after the first move who you are dealing with. There are a only a handful of guys like this, but few of them rank high in fighters....any of them?
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This thread is weak.
Need more flames, need more spice.
Where'd all the excellent raging sabbaticals of the old times go??
...
We should be seeing more Bish and more Knits in this thread violently disagreeing! :D
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Originally posted by Steve
Forgive me if I disagree here. As far as the rank system goes, I think it is pretty darned near evenly balanced for both mindsets.
To counter your assertion, I can give you a name or two of some guys that do well in the ranking, and they really don't furball much, nor do they fly the way they do with an eye on rank.... their rank is merely a byproduct of their flying preferences.(In other words, one doesn't have to fly with the desire to have a high rank to accomplish one, regardless of their flying style.. furballer or .... otherwise.)
IMO the rank system is fine for what I use it for: a means to look up stats on friends/foes.
To drag up an old idea(again): rank can have very little to do w/ how dangerous a person is in the MA. Since we have used Todd and Shane, let's do it again. Both of these guys are so skilled, and so dangerous in the MA that when I run into them, I know after the first merge or two just who it is. I can see a fight and tell you as I approach if Levi is in one of the spitV's there. Bounce shane's La7 and you'll be able to tell after the first move who you are dealing with. There are a only a handful of guys like this, but few of them rank high in fighters....any of them?
Umm, not sure what your point is, both Shane and Levi have sub 100 fighter ranks usually. I wasn't flying my wife's account to attain rank either, it just happened, and I used that to prove this point. Just asserting that flying in furballs almost exclusively is actually more conducive to higher rank than flying to live is, generally speaking. It also requires far less time and mental effort. I know, I can and do both styles.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
This thread is weak.
Need more flames, need more spice.
Where'd all the excellent raging sabbaticals of the old times go??
...
We should be seeing more Bish and more Knits in this thread violently disagreeing! :D
Yea, Lazs is doing his best to suck this down into the flame-fest toilet bowl he always does to good threads. I wouldn't let him ;)
Nice, good, clean juicy debate is a nice change on this forum. Let's keep it that way. If you want a flame-fest thread, start your own.
Call it, "Rooks Suxxors! Bishes Rool! Knights Drool!"
You'll have all the 15 year olds clammering over one another to get their flames in :D
Zazen
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This thread is weak.
I think everyone agrees with this that is why so few have chimed in.
Need more flames, need more spice.
Where'd all the excellent raging sabbaticals of the old times go??
Zazen is so full of BS it's amazing, yeah you need better SA to cherry pick than you do to furball. Right
Also anyone that needs shade accounts really isn't worth the time and effort, since this means everything he says and his only public accout represents is padded BS.
Anyone could make statements based on imaginary accounts ( i.e when I fly my wifes account. ) Unless you have a name to back it up shut it up. That's how I look at it.
To me Zazen is hiding in so many ways that his credability is worhtless.
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Unless you have a name to back it up shut it up
well if he was truthful w/ the ranks he gave, his wife's account name is: Lexus
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Originally posted by mars01
I think everyone agrees with this that is why so few have chimed in.
Zazen is so full of BS it's amazing, yeah you need better SA to cherry pick than you do to furball. Right
Also anyone that needs shade accounts really isn't worth the time and effort, since this means everything he says and his only public accout represents is padded BS.
Anyone could make statements based on imaginary accounts ( i.e when I fly my wifes account. ) Unless you have a name to back it up shut it up. That's how I look at it.
To me Zazen is hiding in so many ways that his credability is worhtless.
You aren't the brightest bulb in the box are you? Just look up who was 89th Fighter rank last camp...Duh.... heh
mars, mars, mars, a sad commentary on the state of the public education system today... :D
Zazen
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Umm, not sure what your point is,
Maybe you missed it, here it is again: Forgive me if I disagree here. As far as the rank system goes, I think it is pretty darned near evenly balanced for both mindsets.
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both Shane and Levi have sub 100 fighter ranks usually
Perspective difference here as to what a high rank is, sorry.
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Originally posted by Steve
Maybe you missed it, here it is again: Forgive me if I disagree here. As far as the rank system goes, I think it is pretty darned near evenly balanced for both mindsets.
Ok....
Zazen
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Originally posted by Steve
Perspective difference here as to what a high rank is, sorry.
Yea, I think it's a fairly well established benchmark that any Fighter Rank below 100 is good. The ranking system is competitive, therefore only 100 of the thousands of players will have a sub-100 rank, obviously. Dunno, I am not of your calibre yet, so maybe for you a top 10 rank is where your mental meter starts counting. In any event the benchmark chosen is highly subjective and arbitrary.
Zazen
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Just asserting that flying in furballs almost exclusively is actually more conducive to higher rank than flying to live is, generally speaking.
Well, by now saying "generally speaking" you allow for the very exceptions I offered to mention. I'm still not sure why you think furballing is more conducive to high rank than not.
Of course, much like our differing views on rank, maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "flying to live" . Could you describe what a typical sortie is so I understand your perspective? climb out, fuel load out, location choices?
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I think the ranking system is pretty well balanced, actually.
The "furballers" tend to score highly in K/T. Therefore the .. ok... I don't want to call them cherrypickers so I need to think of a better name. Anyway, they take a hit in the competition for the "K/T" rank.
The... others... tend to score very well in K/D. So, the "furballers" tend to take a hit in the competition for K/D.
K/S and accuracy are the other two categories.. both sets have an equal chance to score well here. If I die every sortie, but take 4 guys out in 20 minutes I'll have a good K/S, and a good K/T. If this happens every sortie, my K/D will also be around 4, which is good but not stellar in the K/D competition.
If a ... other... kills 4 guys a sortie, but his sorties last for an hour and he always lands, then he will have a good K/S, an atrocious K/T, and a stellar K/D.
Accuracy.. well, how well you shoot determines that, "flying style" has very little to do with it.
Points is a catchall category to keep someone who has one great sortie from skewing the rank to much, neither style is postively or negatively affected by that, it is purely a function of how much time you spend in the game.
Incidentally, my stats are usually close to what I give for a "furballer" example, although I'm somewhat more cautious than the really agressive furballers. Mostly a function of plane choice, I think.
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Originally posted by Steve
Well, by now saying "generally speaking" you allow for the very exceptions I offered to mention. I'm still not sure why you think furballing is more conducive to high rank than not.
Of course, much like our differing views on rank, maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "flying to live" . Could you describe what a typical sortie is so I understand your perspective? climb out, fuel load out, location choices?
Ok, this will probably be worthwhile. My definition of flying to live is as follows:
I would up from a base with sufficient fuel to attain altitude at least better than 75% of the reported enemy before engaging(usually 15 to 20k) plus at least 15 minutes combat/re-alting time (usually means drop tanks). I would choose a base as close to the fighting as possible where there was a zero probability of getting vulched or semi-vulched by aircraft or ground vehicles. I would most likely, but not always, choose an aircraft that has the speed to disengage at will from at least 50% of the typical aircraft encountered (ie: wouldn't fly a zeke). Typically, I would overfly the fight until I was opposite their flight path vector, then turn facing my home area and look for targets.
I would look for engagements that are A) isolated from the packs, B) involving fewer than 3 aircraft per side C) single or multiple aircraft chasing a friendly or heading toward my base presumably to vulch and/or pork (includes bombers).
Once I engaged initially, I would stay engaged so long as I am not about to get bounced and have targets to kill. Once all the targets in my immediate vicinity are destroyed I would gain my optimum altitide toward my friendly base (15-20k depending on situation and plane). I would then basically repeat the scenario until my gas was low or I ran out of ammunition.
This pattern differs from what I would call furballing in that when I furball I would choose any plane regardless of relative speed (preference to turnrate over speed), I would not necessarily avoid the swarm in the middle, I would almost never go out of my way to regain alt, I would not restrict my flight vector to homeward bound and I would not necessarily disengage and/or go defensive if being bounced by higher fighters was an imminent danger.
Hope this helps, I'm sure everyone has their own little routine, that's just mine in a nutshell.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Urchin
I think the ranking system is pretty well balanced, actually.
The "furballers" tend to score highly in K/T. Therefore the .. ok... I don't want to call them cherrypickers so I need to think of a better name. Anyway, they take a hit in the competition for the "K/T" rank.
The... others... tend to score very well in K/D. So, the "furballers" tend to take a hit in the competition for K/D.
K/S and accuracy are the other two categories.. both sets have an equal chance to score well here. If I die every sortie, but take 4 guys out in 20 minutes I'll have a good K/S, and a good K/T. If this happens every sortie, my K/D will also be around 4, which is good but not stellar in the K/D competition.
If a ... other... kills 4 guys a sortie, but his sorties last for an hour and he always lands, then he will have a good K/S, an atrocious K/T, and a stellar K/D.
Accuracy.. well, how well you shoot determines that, "flying style" has very little to do with it.
Points is a catchall category to keep someone who has one great sortie from skewing the rank to much, neither style is postively or negatively affected by that, it is purely a function of how much time you spend in the game.
Incidentally, my stats are usually close to what I give for a "furballer" example, although I'm somewhat more cautious than the really agressive furballers. Mostly a function of plane choice, I think.
Yea, that's pretty much the way I see it. But, the two stats that really determine rank for each style respectively, K/D and K/T are not equally competitive. As Steve noted, their are relatively few pilots with unusually high skill who furball enough to rank highly, or they do but don't care about rank at all. Conversely, ALOT of people, and ESPECIALLY people who do fly for rank pay attention to their K/D. Therefore, there is much stiffer competition within the K/D sub-rank between upper echelon players than within the K/T sub-rank. The end result is a skilled player who has a disproportionately high K/T will end up ranked higher than if he had an equally disproportionately high K/D, all other factors being equal.
Zazen
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Yea, that seems pretty accurate. So the trick is to kill faster than the people you are competing in the K/D category with :).
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Originally posted by Urchin
Yea, that seems pretty accurate. So the trick is to kill faster than the people you are competing in the K/D category with :).
Yup, that's the intriguing paradox, how to kill fast and not die...Fun trying, Steve does it very well, I'm learning. My main problem right now is wife ack that prevents me from ever re-arming, I always end-mission instead, usually pre-maturely (she isn't the most patient woman in the world, bless her heart) this hurts K/T and K/S badly.
Zazen
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Zazen your score means nothing, because like you said you have multiple accounts, so for all we know you could be vulching yourself. You hide behind your shade accounts and pad your Zazen account boring.
AS for you attempt to personally insult me who cares about some dumbprettythang that has to pound his chest on the BBs to get some attention. If you were any good the community would know. I'm just glad your not a knight.:aok
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Originally posted by mars01
Zazen your score means nothing, because like you said you have multiple accounts, so for all we know you could be vulching yourself. You hide behind your shade accounts and pad your Zazen account boring.
AS for you attempt to personally insult me who cares about some dumbprettythang that has to pound his chest on the BBs to get some attention. If you were any good the community would know. I'm just glad you not a knight.:aok
Obviously, reading is not your strong suit. I have multiple accounts but ONE, count 'em, ONE computer. I can only play ONE account at a time. So, vulching myself is a physical impossibility.
Nice try at rationalization though...Keep trying...Your attempts are very cute...
Zazen
P.S. Good news for you, I have two practice accounts on Knights, both in squadrons ;) and my wife's account is Knights.
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....prevents me from ever re-arming, I always end-mission instead, usually pre-maturely...; this hurts K/T and K/S badly.
consider this opinion: Rearming actually hurts K/T. Instead of landing, slamming on the brakes and reupping, you must land, taxi to the rearm pad, wait 30 seconds, then roll.
FWIW I rearm about 1 in 10. Usually the darbar has shrunk and there is a bigger one elsewhere or I just feel like flying somewhere else. Just as often I'm missing one part or other and need a new plane. :)
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Originally posted by Steve
consider this opinion: Rearming actually hurts K/T. Instead of landing, slamming on the brakes and reupping, you must land, taxi to the rearm pad, wait 30 seconds, then roll.
FWIW I rearm about 1 in 10. Usually the darbar has shrunk and there is a bigger one elsewhere or I just feel like flying somewhere else. Just as often I'm missing one part or other and need a new plane. :)
Yea, the never re-arming hurts my K/S. The ending missions pre-maturely part is what hurts my K/T. Usually, I just get to alt, maybe have 1 kill, then I hear through my headphones the faint chime of my lovely wife saying, "James!, get off the computer, Bailey (our Pitbull) has to go out!" . There ends my mission (she graciously permits me to immediately land instead of auger), but alas my K/T gets porked :eek:
Zazen
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Originally posted by Bulz
Nopoop typed:
"Anyhow, Aces High represents the crowning jewel of a..
Bulz, I typed that, but it was a quote from Zazen.
Besides, I don't know how to spell jeuel. Chrowning gives me problems also..
...sorry I had to straighten out THAT misconception. An'old nip'n da budder..
Continue.
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Thanks for 'splaining your methods, Zazen. :)
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think the ranking system is pretty well balanced, actually.
Rgr Urch, exactly what I meant earlier when I posted that I felt it was well balanced. A good pilot is a good pilot, regardless of plane.
any of the accomplished turnfiters could get a bit of practice and be doing fine in an energy plane. Same can be said for the speed guys gettin in the turnders. I do occasionally and have a blast.
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>> Same can be said for the speed guys gettin in the turnders. I do occasionally and have a blast.<<
Stupid , ADD, tweenky junkie - whatever - furballs are a rush. I just don't hear many scientific pilots describing their flights as a "blast." Its more like "it was a successful flight." :D
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Yeah right,
Like I said Zazen, you have no credability in my eyes so I am done with you.
.squelch Zazan poof.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yea, the never re-arming hurts my K/S. The ending missions pre-maturely part is what hurts my K/T. Usually, I just get to alt, maybe have 1 kill, then I hear through my headphones the faint chime of my lovely wife saying, "James!, get off the computer, Bailey (our Pitbull) has to go out!" . There ends my mission (she graciously permits me to immediately land instead of auger), but alas my K/T gets porked :eek:
Zazen
Whats freaky is that ive been here 3 and a half, 4 years and i have no idea what K/S and K/T means...
K/D is Kills vs Deaths :D Thats the only one that i really know...
This only shows you my mere intrest in the ranking system.
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Originally posted by WldThing
This only shows you my mere intrest in the ranking system.
Well, all you do is vulch and gangbang anyway. I know... I've "seen" you!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Steve
Rgr Urch, exactly what I meant earlier when I posted that I felt it was well balanced. A good pilot is a good pilot, regardless of plane.
any of the accomplished turnfiters could get a bit of practice and be doing fine in an energy plane. Same can be said for the speed guys gettin in the turnders. I do occasionally and have a blast.
I agree with this under certain conditions, let me explain. As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, most players learn to TnB LONG before they ever consider Energy Fighting in its pure form. How many times have you heard newbie#123456 ask on country or open channel, "What is a good plane for a new person to start with?", the answer is invariably, Niki or Spitfire. Have you ever heard a veteran recommend a new player start with a Fw190, P51D, or P47D-30? The simple fact is, Energy Fighting requires alot more in terms of specialized skills to be succcessful with, it requires everything TnB requires plus some. While I believe your statement is entirely correct for upper echelon players, I don't believe it would hold true for your average person, who lacks years of experience.
When you TnB, for the most part, you are focussed on one enemy, you manuever in a way that affords the best chance of saddling up on his six, you generally are very close perhaps 300 yards or less away in a relatively equal E state, while maeuvering in-plane with him. The gunnery solution in this standard scenario is very simple, it would be hard to miss. I can back this up with personal evidence, my hit % with my wife's account last camp was a full % higher than with Zazen, and I was trying to be more accurate with Zazen.
So, let's compare this with a typical energy fighting scenario, the BnZ. Let's assume you have some altitude on a target but he is aware of your prescence. You position yourself above his rear quarter, trying to come from a blind spot in between views, you chop throttle and begin your decent. He sees your bounce commence and evades, for the sake of argument let's say he reverses to force you to attack his forward quarter, a typical counter to the bounce. Now, as you approach gunnery range (typically longer than 400 yards due to rate of closure), instead of having a target that is equal in E state, in an in-plane maneuver with you 300 yards out, you have a vast disparity in E states, with a target that is maneuvering out-of-plane 400 + yards out, presenting you with a high deflection frontal quarter shot at a high rate of closure and deflection against a target that either can inherently outmaneuver you or can outmaneuver you temporarily as a result of relative E states (more E is not necessarily a good thing) and possibly control compression on your part. That my friends is NOT a simple gunnery solution.
The point I am making is, from a gunnery perspective especially, Energy Fighting is exponentially more challenging. Just because someone has some yank and bank experience and can be modestly successfull in a Spitfire does not necessarily mean he has the gunnery aptitude to be equally successful in an Energy Fighting role. I would even go so far as to put some ballpark numbers on it. I would contend that a person who TnBs exclusively, but consistantly has less than a 10% hit% (assuming he doesn't strafe ground targets in fighter mode), would have very little success Energy Fighting, perhaps the only consistant kills he would get would be those where the enemy was unaware of his prescence (fixated or not paying attention), bombers and suicide jabo types that refuse to drop their load and evade.
Subjectively, I can verify what I am saying from direct arena experience. If I am being bounced and am aware of the bouncer, I can successfully evade him 99% of the time. However, if I am the bouncer and the enemy is aware of me I am still a 75% chance or better of getting a critical shot in (resulting in his plane ceasing to be a threat). Either I am better at BnZ evasives than 50% of the arena, which I consider highly unlikely, because most people do the same maneuvers I would in their situation OR people who are playing the energy fighting role lack the requisite gunnery skills to really pull it off with any kind of efficiency and effectiveness. Shots you are forced to take Energy fighting are ones of such high deflection and rates of closure and so out-of-plane, you would never even consider taking them in TnB mode.
So, while I agree with Steve as his statement applies to the upper 1% of the arena population, I do not believe your average person can seemlessly transition from TnB to Energy Fighting and be similiarly successfull. Conversely, if the two styles were hermetically sealed off from one another, there are no guarentees an Energy Fighter would be similiarly successful at theTnB style of low-speed maneuvering. But, the fact is, virtually 100% of those employing energy fighting efficienctly and effectively have long ago learned to TnB with at least moderate efficiency, whereas the opposite is not the case.
Zazen
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But, the fact is, virtually 100% of those employing energy fighting have long ago learned to TnB with at least moderate efficiency, whereas the opposite is not the case.
Too broad of a brush on that swipe ... :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Well, all you do is vulch and gangbang anyway. I know... I've "seen" you!
-- Todd/Leviathn
Thats suppostu be our little secret Levi!! :)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
So, while I agree with Steve as his statement applies to the upper 1% of the arena population, I do not believe your average person can seemlessly transition from TnB to Energy Fighting and be similiarly successfull. Conversely, if the two styles were hermetically sealed off from one another, there are no guarentees an Energy Fighter would be similiarly successful at theTnB style of low-speed maneuvering.
I dont know what you mean by "average person" , but i dont see why a TnB pilot cant go into BnZ mode on his own call. All that would be required is knowledge of where to engage cons and where to fly timidly. If you come in with Speed on a lower con, swooping in on him then going back up doesnt require much knowledge. I can vouch on this subject since i fly the P-51 alot of the time.. If im approaching a low Spit, i will E fight him until he makes a mistake and then finish him off. Then the next con i approach i may go into TnB mode to fight him.. From one task to another.
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Originally posted by WldThing
I dont know what you mean by "average person" , but i dont see why a TnB pilot cant go into BnZ mode on his own call. All that would be required is knowledge of where to engage cons and where to fly timidly. If you come in with Speed on a lower con, swooping in on him then going back up doesnt require much knowledge. I can vouch on this subject since i fly the P-51 alot of the time.. If im approaching a low Spit, i will E fight him until he makes a mistake and then finish him off. Then the next con i approach i may go into TnB mode to fight him.. From one task to another.
Yup, and you also have excellent gunnery skills, far above average. Your hit % in fighter last camp was almost 12%. The average hit % in MA for fighter pilots is less than half that at 4 to 5%.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, and you also have excellent gunnery skills, far above average. Your hit % in fighter last camp was almost 12%. The average hit % in MA for fighter pilots is less than half that at 4 to 5%.
Zazen
FYI i fly with tracers OFF..
Taking that month of pain to adjust to your tracers being off is damn worth it in the end, thats a tip for all the pilots..
BTW didnt know what you meant by average pilot.. But i can see your point now.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Taking that month of pain to adjust to your tracers being off is damn worth it in the end, thats a tip for all the pilots..
Of course, vulching and base suppression tend to inflate gunnery percentages dramatically. Ask me how I know?
Careful, WT, I'm "watching" you!!!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Of course, vulching and base suppression tend to inflate gunnery percentages dramatically. Ask me how I know?
Careful, WT, I'm "watching" you!!!
-- Todd/Leviathn
lmao Levi :D
I tend to wait for the cons to roll OFF the field before i engage them, its techincally not vulching :P A2A :D
Me and you do it well :) Can we vulch on our next Wingie Run Levi??
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Originally posted by WldThing
FYI i fly with tracers OFF..
Taking that month of pain to adjust to your tracers being off is damn worth it in the end, thats a tip for all the pilots..
BTW didnt know what you meant by average pilot.. But i can see your point now.
Yea, Wildthing, I turned tracers off about 6 months ago. I can't fathom how I could tolerate them before. Sometimes I accidentally leave them on from an Ostwind mission in fighter and they totally screw me up. I found immediately that tracers OFF is a huge advantage. Does take some getting used to though, but in the end you pay far more attention to proper lead for deflection without having to drag your "sparkly glitter hose" around.
Tracers are very distracting, especially on near dead six shots, heck you can't really even see plane hits with all the fireworks ;) My advice to anyone is, if your hit % with tracers is 10% or better in fighter, you have a good feel for proper lead and deflection, tracers are doing you more harm than good after that point, they are helping your opponent more than you, turn em OFF.
Zazen
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Originally posted by WldThing
Can we vulch on our next Wingie Run Levi??
Of course! It's what I do best, you know. :)
Hey, do you have place to host a film I made a couple of weeks ago?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Neg, not me, might want to ask some of the folks here if they can do it for yas, I know Viper and a couple other folks have hosted mine before.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Neg, not me, might want to ask some of the folks here if they can do it for yas, I know Viper and a couple other folks have hosted mine before.
Rats. Well, I have a film if anyone feels like hosting it. It's just pretty boring stuff of me vulching and suppressing a base in a huge gaggle of friendlies. Standard fare.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by SlapShot
But, the fact is, virtually 100% of those employing energy fighting have long ago learned to TnB with at least moderate efficiency, whereas the opposite is not the case.
Too broad of a brush on that swipe ... :D
Yea, I re-worded that part as you were replying to say, "those employing energy fighting effectively and efficiently" to preclude those I mentioned in my example who do it, but really aren't any good at it due to a deficiency in gunnery skills.
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presenting you with a high deflection frontal quarter shot at a high rate of closure and deflection against a target
I'm salivating. lol how Pavlovian. This shot is bad news for the victim. Sure you have to lead a bit more because fo the closure/angle, but it almost always means the bad guy will fly his entire plane, including canopy through the bullet stream. Kill!
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm salivating. lol how Pavlovian. This shot is bad news for the victim. Sure you have to lead a bit more because fo the closure/angle, but it almost always means the bad guy will fly his entire plane, including canopy through the bullet stream. Kill!
Heh, yea, I tried to use a basic example that everyone could relate to. You take high deflection shots for granted in P51D as I do. But, the P51D has an exceptionally fabulous nose low forward view (bubble canopy). In most planes, especially LW planes, such a shot would in most instances be "blind" as the target would pass below the engine cowling visual obstruction. Unless of course you took the shot while inverted. :eek:
In any event we are dealing with rather more complex gunnery solution situations relative to what a typical TnB engagement would involve.The luxury is generally afforded during TnB fights to get a straight 6 shot or something very close to it with a typical lead turn, very little lead is required for a very low deflection shot.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
In any event we are dealing with rather more complex gunnery solution situations relative to what a typical TnB engagement would involve.The luxury is generally afforded during TnB fights to get a straight 6 shot or something very close to it with a typical lead turn, very little lead is required for a very low deflection shot.
Utter nonsense. In both situations you'll have easy and difficult shots. You're rationalizing again without proof.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Utter nonsense. In both situations you'll have easy and difficult shots. You're rationalizing again without proof.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Umm, whatever you say Todd :aok
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Umm, whatever you say Todd :aok
That's the best rebuttal? I stand by what I've stated. BnZ certainly requires no harder or easier shots than any other style of flying. I challenge you to prove otherwise beyond mere conjecture stated as fact.
You remind me of someone like Mandoble who waxes poetic about how hard it is to fly his undermodelled, impossibly difficult plane -- the insinuation being that his success in it must reflect his amazing skill rather than some artifact of how and where he flies.
How sad that you invest so much in this game and just aren't very good at it. But hey, keep on rationalizing why that is and maybe you'll wind up being an AH God without even trying.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Rats. Well, I have a film if anyone feels like hosting it. It's just pretty boring stuff of me vulching and suppressing a base in a huge gaggle of friendlies. Standard fare.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I can prolly help ya out there Levi.
dwisok@yahoo.com
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Rats. Well, I have a film if anyone feels like hosting it. It's just pretty boring stuff of me vulching and suppressing a base in a huge gaggle of friendlies. Standard fare.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I'll host your film of your vulching and horde flying.
Just post the film on BW and I'll upload it and post the link here.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
That's the best rebuttal? I stand by what I've stated. BnZ certainly requires no harder or easier shots than any other style of flying. I challenge you to prove otherwise beyond mere conjecture stated as fact.
You remind me of someone like Mandoble who waxes poetic about how hard it is to fly his undermodelled, impossibly difficult plane -- the insinuation being that his success in it must reflect his amazing skill rather than some artifact of how and where he flies.
How sad that you invest so much in this game and just aren't very good at it. But hey, keep on rationalizing why that is and maybe you'll wind up being an AH God without even trying.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I wrote a long essay giving very typical examples of the two styles and how it relates to gunnery. I see no need to re-iterate it simply because you have your panties in a bunch and choose to disagree.You have every right to your own opinions, just as I do but, your knee-jerk responses to my well thought out posts are growing quite tiresome. Frankly, a more comprehensive response on my part is a waste of my valuable time, and would detract from the otherwise constructive debate the rest of us are enjoying.
Have a nice day. :D
Zazen
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I'd have to disagree there Zazen. In both cases you will get easy and difficult shots. Plus both shots will become easier in time, with practice.
For instance, a fairly common shot you'll get as a BnZ'er is a front-quarter "raking" shot. You dive, they break into you, you aim where they are going and shoot. Depending on how far into the turn they get, it'll vary from a straight planform to maybe halfway between a planform and a head-on. Is that a difficult shot? I don't find it particularly difficult, but I've been practicing that shot for about 2 years now.
Actually, a lot of the time in a "furball" most of your shots are not tracking shot, but snapshots. It is exceedingly rare to actually "saddle up" on one enemy in a multiplane fight. Most of the time you take your shots were you can get them, and they usually end up being 45-90 degree snapshots, just like if you were BnZing. Of course, you have slightly more time to aim in the latter situation, since your speed isn't as high, but on the other hand there are consequences for missing the shot.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Is that a difficult shot? I don't find it particularly difficult, but I've been practicing that shot for about 2 years now.
Yes, there's the key, you've been practicing it for 2 years! Not only that your hit % in fighter is astronomically high compared to the average player. Some camps your hit % in Fighter is over 20%!. I dare say ANY shot would seem relatively easy for you. I was trying to relate the typical scenarios as they would apply to the AVERAGE player, you my friend definately DO NOT fall into that category ;)
I never mentioned furballing, I was talking about a protracted isolated fight versus one enemy. I never mentioned furball because I wanted to keep it simple and confine the discussion to a typical Turn and Burn engagement between two adversaries. Just as in the Energy Fight example I confined it to the bouncer and the bouncie. We'll work on the Furballer vs. the E- Fighter topic tomorrow, with my upcoming Situational Awareness discussion.
Zazen
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Gunnery and the AH score system:
No matter how one flies, some flyers always conserve their ammo for six-o-clock 100 yard shots. These folks probably have a great hit %, but their hit% is not necessarily an indicator that they are a great shot. Odds are that these players develop good flying/ACM skills to be able to get into the necessary position to kill with every shot and rely less on gunnery.
Others take every shot they can. They rely less on positioning, but shoot and often hit every plane within 600 yards, no matter what the angle. These players may have a worse hit% than the above mentioned players. However, if many of their shots are 4-600 yard hard deflection shots you can’t really say that they are a worse shot.
My point: like all AH statistics hit % is not a clear indicator of gunnery skill.
A general indicator? Yes.
An absolute indicator? No.
(Note, I am not advocating or indicating that one style is better than the other. I am also not implying that players are either one way or the other, clearly some are both.)
eskimo
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Zazen..... Using stats (hit %) to detrmine how good someones gunnery is just doesnt tell the whole story. It simply doesnt work.
I have dueled Urchin many times and I can say that he is NOT an exceptional shot. He is however an exceptional pilot.
I have also Dueled WldThing many times and he is probably the best shot I have ever fought. Except mabye for Fester. They are real close.
I myself am average at best. I often miss shots in duels that WT can nail everytime. However my hit % is no worse than WldThings.
So am I a better shot than WT because my hit % is the same or better than his? Most definatly not.
Getting a high hit % in the stats can be as simple as just waiting until your target is so close it looks like a barn.
You are putting far to many eggs in the stats basket.
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lol ..... eskimo got his up while I was writing mine. Basicly saying the same thing.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I wrote a long essay giving very typical examples of the two styles and how it relates to gunnery. I see no need to re-iterate it simply because you have your panties in a bunch and choose to disagree.
[/B]
I see no need to reiterate it either because, for the most part, your long-winded essay incorrectly asserts that gunnery is "exponentially" more difficult for BnZ than for furballing. No need to tread over that ground again since you can't prove it beyond anecdotally pointing to your (massively improved!!!!) gunnery score when flying turn and burn rather than boom and zoom. Incidentally, an improvement of about 12% hardly represents an exponential difference.
You have every right to your own opinions, just as I do but, your knee-jerk responses to my well thought out posts are growing quite tiresome. Frankly, a more comprehensive response on my part is a waste of my valuable time, and would detract from the otherwise constructive debate the rest of us are enjoying.
[/B]
I don't expect a more comprehensive response from you because you have nothing more to contribute. You cannot prove what you argued as fact, and you never argued that for you BnZ gunnery was more difficult. You indeed made an indefensible general statement with which just about everyone here is going to disagree. But we wouldn't want for you to waste valuable "practice" time in one of your shades accounts, so by all means ignore me.
I hardly consider poo-pooing responses from you to be "constructive," but then again I expect as little from you.
Have a nice day. :D
Always. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
lololol too funny this is going to break the 500 thread ceiling!!
almost half way there!
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I find aiming when bnz much easier than when TnB. For me it's because you have so much more time to prepare for the shot. When i dive someone and they make a break turn or some other manouver, i fly into a postion where they'll pass through my crosshair between 200-300m. As they fly through it i open fire and they die (well often enough;) ).
If i am TnB, as levi said most opportunities are brief snapshots, with little time to prepare and to get into position. You have at most a few secs to get it right and pull the trigger.
I wouldn't call myself a great shot, tho i find defelection shooting easy. Little over 300m and i can't hit much at all.
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm salivating. lol how Pavlovian. This shot is bad news for the victim. Sure you have to lead a bit more because fo the closure/angle, but it almost always means the bad guy will fly his entire plane, including canopy through the bullet stream. Kill!
And then the other guys whines about being HO'ed.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I see no need to reiterate it either because, for the most part, your long-winded essay incorrectly asserts that gunnery is "exponentially" more difficult for BnZ than for furballing. No need to tread over that ground again since you can't prove it beyond anecdotally pointing to your (massively improved!!!!) gunnery score when flying turn and burn rather than boom and zoom. Incidentally, an improvement of about 12% hardly represents an exponential difference.
[/B]
I don't expect a more comprehensive response from you because you have nothing more to contribute. You cannot prove what you argued as fact, and you never argued that for you BnZ gunnery was more difficult. You indeed made an indefensible general statement with which just about everyone here is going to disagree. But we wouldn't want for you to waste valuable "practice" time in one of your shades accounts, so by all means ignore me.
I hardly consider poo-pooing responses from you to be "constructive," but then again I expect as little from you.
Always. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
I disagree with you. I for one find TnB gunnery much easier, far less data to compute, less variables and the target is much slower and closer. Again, as I stated earlier, not once did I mention furball, where you might be switching targets, both are examples of 1 vs. 1.
Btw, didn't you quit AW because of the prevalence of "Alt-Monkeys" and "BnZers"? I seem to recall that, and alot of whining about them on your part, although it was years ago...Just wondering since you seem to have some personal vendetta against that style and those that represent it that is going far beyond peacable and friendly debate. Anyways, your responses are teetering on the edge of flaming, which I do not want this thread to devolve into as I told Lazs. Your co-operation is appreciated.
Zazen
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>>Getting a high hit % in the stats can be as simple as just waiting until your target is so close it looks like a barn. <<
Shooting bombers helps it enormously, and never strafing gv's helps as well.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
almost half way there!
My goal was to keep this thread alive until AH2 is released. I think I can do it with your guys help, I promise to keep it interesting :D I don't want the longest thread on this board to be the "Lowest Form of the Game" thread :mad: . I want to exemplify the "Highest Form of the Game", thus the prohibition on wreckless flaming and such. :cool:
Zazen
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Getting a high hit % in the stats can be as simple as just waiting until your target is so close it looks like a barn. <<
Shooting bombers helps it enormously, and never strafing gv's helps as well.
Yea, shooting bombers helps hit %. But, be wary of getting super-close to targets, after reading historical commentary I endeavored to work on that. Typical WW2 pilots didn't fire until the enemy was at least 200 yards, some waited until the enemy was less than 100 yards!!. I found I died from plane part collisions so much as to make getting any closer than 250 yards with any closure just not worth the risk.
Actually, it was this experiement that caused me to change my convergences to the "Cone of Fire" pattern. For example in the typical 6 X 50cal US planes my guns from outer to inner are 475/450/425. My thinking here was, as the target got closer I would have additional firepower concentrating on a smaller area increasing the likelihood of totally destroying the enemy aircraft rather than just knocking a piece off. Also, as we are dealing with objects in motion, it seemed to make sense to have a range of maximal convergence rather than a specific point of maximal convergence.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I disagree with you. I for one find TnB gunnery much easier, far less data to compute, less variables and the target is much slower and closer. Again, as I stated earlier, not once did I mention furball, where you might be switching targets, both are examples of 1 vs. 1.
[/B]
Fair enough, but keep in mind that for each of us this sort of experience varies. Hence a universal statement that one form of flying engenders "exponentially" easier gunnery just won't fly with many others here. I think you'll find that most here would disagree with you, myself included. I personally don't find either style more difficult than any other; both have easy and difficult shots.
Btw, didn't you quit AW because of the prevalence of "Alt-Monkeys" and "BnZers"? I seem to recall that, and alot of whining about them on your part, although it was years ago...
[/b]
LOL You might want to check your memory there. I quit Air Warrior because Aces High came along and, after some starts and stops, struck my fancy more. I left without any wringing of hands or gnashing of teeth. I'm not sure where you came up with this one.
Just wondering since you seem to have some personal vendetta against that style and those that represent it that is going far beyond peacable and friendly debate.
[/B]
I don't see how you could possibly interpret anything I've said on these forums as an attack on the way you fly. In fact, if you read through the bulletin board you'll find that I encourage players to fly in any way they desire. I might not find certain flying styles personally interesting, but it's their money. The most important factor is having fun.
What I have problems with is a holier-than-thou attitude espoused by proponents of any style. When you insist that people who fly differently than you are somehow intellectually or otherwise inferior, I'm going to call you on it. Only one person between the two of us has problems with the way others fly. Here's a hint... it's not me.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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[/B]
I don't see how you could possibly interpret anything I've said on these forums as an attack on the way you fly. In fact, if you read through the bulletin board you'll find that I encourage players to fly in any way they desire. I might not find certain flying styles personally interesting, but it's their money. The most important factor is having fun.
What I have problems with is a holier-than-thou attitude espoused by proponents of any style. When you insist that people who fly differently than you are somehow intellectually or otherwise inferior, I'm going to call you on it. Only one person between the two of us has problems with the way others fly. Here's a hint... it's not me.
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B][/QUOTE]
I could care less how people choose to fly. All I ever said was it was unrealistic to "Fly Until You Die", but not all TnBers "Fly Until They Die". I am just a realism junkie. Energy Fighting was pretty much the only "deliberate" fighting that took place, largely due to differences in aircraft performance (ie: one side had a clear advantage in certain areas of performance ie: speed, turn-rate,climb-rate and roll-rate). Any TnB style fighting was either by accident (isolated engagements) or because one plane had a superiority in turn-rate and the E to force the situation. Getting involved in a prolonged TnB fight with more than one enemy around was just considered wreckless and simply too dangerous. Zero's in the Pacific theatre are a good example. What did the Americans do to counter that? Energy-Fighting, BnZ and ripped them to shreds. But, as far as people's choice goes, I am not prepared to pay their 15 bucks a month so they can do whatever they please. My posts are my opinion backed up by whatever statistical evidence I think is applicable or usefull.
The primary purpose of all of this is to inform, debate, and provide some insights for newer players from some old veterans. There's far too little of that sort of thing on this forum. It is this sort of thread that gives that 'community' feel. After reading through that, "Lowest Form of the Game" thread we could use it.:eek:
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
My goal was to keep this thread alive until AH2 is released. I think I can do it with your guys help, I promise to keep it interesting :D I don't want the longest thread on this board to be the "Lowest Form of the Game" thread :mad: . I want to exemplify the "Highest Form of the Game", thus the prohibition on wreckless flaming and such. :cool:
Zazen
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55540 is the longest thread ever i think
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55540 is the longest thread ever i think
I think this is the longest thread... Who are you? (pics) (http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55147) 694 replies! :D
well, this is just looking at the O'club and the General Discussion Forums where I think there were the longest threads...
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
I think this is the longest thread... Who are you? (pics) (http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55147) 694 replies! :D
well, this is just looking at the O'club and the General Discussion Forums where I think there were the longest threads...
Wow, that's alot of Pics! Ok, maybe not the longest then, just more than that hideous monster of a thread, "Lowest Form of the Game" lol
Zazen
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I wouldn't consider myself to be an exceptional shot. Rather, as many people have said, I just wait until I am very close to shoot.
Typically the guy I kill is closer than 150 yards. At that range, it doesnt matter if it is a deflection/snap shot or a tracking shot, it is hard to miss. In some cases I find "bnz" shooting to be easier, because you can get the guy to bleed off his speed dodging you, so even if his aspect is changing rapidly (like a zero or spitfire) at slow speed, he really isn't moving anywhere.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I wouldn't consider myself to be an exceptional shot. Rather, as many people have said, I just wait until I am very close to shoot.
Typically the guy I kill is closer than 150 yards. At that range, it doesnt matter if it is a deflection/snap shot or a tracking shot, it is hard to miss. In some cases I find "bnz" shooting to be easier, because you can get the guy to bleed off his speed dodging you, so even if his aspect is changing rapidly (like a zero or spitfire) at slow speed, he really isn't moving anywhere.
You don't get smacked by pieces getting that close? I sure as heck do...What's the secret?
Zazen
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he tnb's around them. :D
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Originally posted by Shane
he tnb's around them. :D
Lol, my favorite way to die when I was trying to hold fire until that close was to shoot the enemies tail off only to have him pitch up vertically right into my flight path. At less than 150 yards, even with little or no closure during the shot there's zero chance to avoid that.
Zazen
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Zazen13. These stats though interesting are quite laughable because it runs on the premis that every one out there is trying to get the best score possible when in fact there are people out there(too many to count) who could care less about scores or ranking and auger on purpose at a drop of a hat to bring a goon or any thing else that is need to defend or capture a base. This obviousely lowers a country's scores so you really can't tell which country is the better country based on tainted statistics. Look at my score, I have over a 5:1 k/d ratio in attack planes and a 7:1 in GV no fighter or bobmer points as of yet but i'm ranked above 1000. does this accurately portray my abilities or skills? No it doesn't. The Knights have successfully beaten down the Rooks and the Bishops with inferior numbers many times But every one knows there is safety in numbers and when the Rooks have 300+ members online compared to 200 for the Bishops and the Knights , it's doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that k/d ratios and scores would improve because every fight would be at the least a 2 on 1 or a 3 on 1 and how many people can succesfully fend off a 3 on 1 fight? Numbers may not win the reset but they sure do win the war on stats
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Originally posted by meddog
Zazen13. These stats though interesting are quite laughable because it runs on the premis that every one out there is trying to get the best score possible when in fact there are people out there(too many to count) who could care less about scores or ranking and auger on purpose at a drop of a hat to bring a goon or any thing else that is need to defend or capture a base. This obviousely lowers a country's scores so you really can't tell which country is the better country based on tainted statistics. Look at my score, I have over a 5:1 k/d ratio in attack planes and a 7:1 in GV no fighter or bobmer points as of yet but i'm ranked above 1000. does this accurately portray my abilities or skills? No it doesn't. The Knights have successfully beaten down the Rooks and the Bishops with inferior numbers many times But every one knows there is safety in numbers and when the Rooks have 300+ members online compared to 200 for the Bishops and the Knights , it's doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that k/d ratios and scores would improve because every fight would be at the least a 2 on 1 or a 3 on 1 and how many people can succesfully fend off a 3 on 1 fight? Numbers may not win the reset but they sure do win the war on stats
Interesting argument except the statistics do not bear you out. Two things are wrong with your argument.
Firstly, all countries have a relatively equal distribution of people who care about score and not, due to the influx of new players, squadron and individual migration.
Secondly, the statistics for each country are very stable over a long period of time, actually from beta to the present. Rooks maintained their anomolously high rates even when enormously outnumbered for almost two years, conversely Bishops maintained their anomolously poor rates even with a VAST numerical advantage for an equally extended period. Knights have consistantly been somewhere in the middle regardless of relative numbers, leaning toward the Bishop end of the spectrum. The fact that these statistics ARE so consistant irrelevant of numerical disparities is what prompted me to start this thread in the first place.
Zazen
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In the interest of proving my point in the above posted reply I give you the Tour 49 Week #1 Kill Totals. Bear in mind many people informed me that my post encouraged Bishops to "Hang a Number" on Rooks this tour to prove they are not, in fact, relatively ineffectual.We'll see.....
Total Kills Rooks Vs. All:
56,243
Total Deaths Rooks Vs. All:
48,578
Total Rook K/D:
1.16 to 1
Total Kills Bishops Vs. All:
45,550
Total Deaths Bishops Vs. All:
54,354
Total Bishop K/D:
0.84 to 1
Total Kills Knights Vs. All:
51,960
Total Deaths Knights Vs. All:
50,829
Total Knight K/D:
1.02 to 1
Sooo, far from hanging anything on anyone, Bishops are actually doing worse this camp than the consistantly poor 0.87 to 1 they usually muster. Knights improved very fractionally at the expense of the Bishops and Rooks are their usual impressive selves.
From now on I am going to refer to this statistical phenomena as the "Theory of National Identity In Simulated Combat". The fact that these numbers yet again stayed so stable, almost falling exactly on the 2003 year-end averages is remarkable. Even more remarkable because there were significant squadron and individual migrations this tour, specifically to the Bishops, apparently making no difference in the end result. Enjoy!
Zazen
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It's like saying high rank "means" anything. It don't. It could mean the rooks have higher numbers, more rank/score potatos, spawncampers, etc... It doesn't matter much either way. :rolleyes:
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I fly Rooks simply casue when I joined 7 months ago a lot of people from the sim I came from (FA3.00) seemed to be in Rooks what I have noticed is that when I see a gaggle lifting off it always seems that there are more Rooks fliying high fast movers rather than the Niki's and Spits.
Maybe the B&Z crowd just gravitate to Rooks as they find others doing what they do and B&Z is more effective in terms of K/D rather than T&B?
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What would be interesting would be a kills per hour stat by country and a kills by plane type stat by country..
lazs
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I've found out that if it wasn't for the crappy guns on the Ju-87, that sucker would be a great vulch plane. If we had the Ju-87D-5 with the wing mounted 20mm cannons, the Stuka would be the ultimate vulture.
ack-ack
Alittle off topic After spending 30 mins dogfighting you in the DA in a JU87 I am convinced it is a pretty good dog fighter. I even killed two P40s and a Spit 5 in the CT on one sortie, all straight forward dog fighting.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
From now on I am going to refer to this statistical phenomena as the "Theory of National Identity In Simulated Combat".
If you're going to posit a theory, you need a hypothesis or hypotheses. A theory doesn't just describe a statistical phenomenon; it attempts to explain it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
If you're going to posit a theory, you need a hypothesis or hypotheses. A theory doesn't just describe a statistical phenomenon; it attempts to explain it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I have stated my hypothesis several times in this thread, allow me to repeat.
---The relative effectiveness of the three countries, expressed statistically, are unique and will remain constant within a very small margin of deviation over time regardless of individual or squadron migration and numerical flunctuations.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
The relative effectiveness of the three countries, expressed statistically, are unique and will remain constant within a very small margin of deviation over time regardless of individual or squadron migration and numerical flunctuations.
Now you need to explain why this is. You've described the phenomenon that requires explanation, but you have not hypothesized why it occurs.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Now you need to explain why this is. You've described the phenomenon that requires explanation, but you have not hypothesized why it occurs.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I have already stated why, again allow me to repeat...
---There is a large core of players for each country that identify exclusively with that country, these people tend not to migrate, it is this core that serves as the statistical basis for each country. This core far outweighs the relative impact of numerical disparity fluctuations and the natural migration of players.
Just for reference sake, I stated all of this in my first post of the thread after the actual statistics.
Zazen
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Originally posted by lazs2
What would be interesting would be a kills per hour stat by country and a kills by plane type stat by country..
lazs
I would LOVE to see a more specific country by country breakdown. We will have it eventually, it is on the score interface on this site, it's apparently just not finished yet.
Zazen
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
I fly Rooks simply casue when I joined 7 months ago a lot of people from the sim I came from (FA3.00) seemed to be in Rooks what I have noticed is that when I see a gaggle lifting off it always seems that there are more Rooks fliying high fast movers rather than the Niki's and Spits.
Maybe the B&Z crowd just gravitate to Rooks as they find others doing what they do and B&Z is more effective in terms of K/D rather than T&B?
No argument about BnZ being more EFFECTIVE than TnB. Just ask the Japanese, especially the ones at the Marianas "Turkey SHoot", if any lived ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I---There is a large core of players for each country that identify exclusively with that country, these people tend not to migrate, it is this core that serves as the statistical basis for each country. This core far outweighs the relative impact of numerical disparity fluctuations and the natural migration of players.
This is a statistical given. What explains the disparity between country K/D totals? Skill? Flying style? An artifact of numbers advantages or disadvantages? Is the core group for Rooks just larger than the other core groups?
Your theory presupposes that players randomly change countries and that this randomness cancels itself out, leaving behind only the impact of the core country members. Do we really know that players randomly switch sides? One could argue, for example, that players hate being outnumbered and switch disproportionately to the country with the most numbers. You would then witness a double whammy where more players leave Bishops and Knights for Rooks than leave for each other and Rooks would enjoy relatively fewer defectors than other countries. Such a phenomenon could likewise explain the persistence of lopsided country numbers over time.
Obviously, this would work for any team -- not just Rooks -- that consistently outnumbers other teams during prime time (when most of the daily killing occurs). You could point out that Rooks did not always enjoy prime time numbers advantages in the last year, but bear in mind that this becomes an issue of magnitude more than anything. If one country outnumbered the others 1.5 to 1 for six months and another outnumbered the others 2 to 1 for the remaining six months, we expect that the latter country achieved more kills and a higher K/D ratio relative to the first country. That presumes, of course, a linear relationship between the number of players on a side and the average K/D ratio.
My point is that there are alternative and in-depth explanations for what you're observing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This is a statistical given. What explains the disparity between country K/D totals? Skill? Flying style? An artifact of numbers advantages or disadvantages? Is the core group for Rooks just larger than the other core groups?
Your theory presupposes that players randomly change countries and that this randomness cancels itself out, leaving behind only the impact of the core country members. Do we really know that players randomly switch sides? One could argue, for example, that players hate being outnumbered and switch disproportionately to the country with the most numbers. You would then witness a double whammy where more players leave Bishops and Knights for Rooks than leave for each other and Rooks would enjoy relatively fewer defectors than other countries. Such a phenomenon could likewise explain the persistence of lopsided country numbers over time.
Obviously, this would work for any team -- not just Rooks -- that consistently outnumbers other teams during prime time (when most of the daily killing occurs). You could point out that Rooks did not always enjoy prime time numbers advantages in the last year, but bear in mind that this becomes an issue of magnitude more than anything. If one country outnumbered the others 1.5 to 1 for six months and another outnumbered the others 2 to 1 for the remaining six months, we expect that the latter country achieved more kills and a higher K/D ratio relative to the first country. That presumes, of course, a linear relationship between the number of players on a side and the average K/D ratio.
My point is that there are alternative and in-depth explanations for what you're observing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Interesting observations. I cannot refute that there are alot of suppositions in the theory. Until more comprehensive statistics are made available we will be left to assume. Obviously, HTC intends to make them available at some point as the interface has already been modified to accomodate them.
The fact that the Rooks month-to-month Kill rate was just as high when outnumbered all times of the day and night for close to a year tends to lean me toward saying that the core that was ROoks then, is for the most part, still Rooks now. Perhaps it was the very fact that they flew together so disadvantaged that they adopted styles more conducive to high K/D. Styles that were statistically independent of the existing numerical disparity. Without more comprehensive statistics we are left with a which came first, "The chicken or the egg" question.
The question then is, on the flip side, if numbers advantage and K/D ratio have some correlation, why did the Bishops have such a disastrously poor Kill rate even when advantaged numerically for that same year long period? Even if they flew in styles not intrinsically conducive to high K/D their sheer weight of numbers should have mollified the style effect.
With the available data I am left with the conclusion that the average skill quotient of the core players is generally higher on Rooks than Bishops, Knights being very close to the average between the two.
Zazen
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Zazen, nice troll. Landed alot of fish.
Stats can be made to explain any point your trying to make. Meaningless to a person who logs on and just wants to have fun.
I am pleased to see that I popped 332 of those alt-monkey, horde-warrior rooks for the loss of 117 of me last camp. And I probably augered 40+ times last camp, mostly flying alone:)
Keep the game fun or unsubscribe.
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On Sundays I often switch to knights because of rooks' huge numbers.
Rooks have a bunch of great guys and some really good sticks.
When switching to knights I found that knights have a bunch of great guys and some really good sticks.
Last night, just for fun I switched to bish. Can ya guess what I found? Yup, bish have a bunch of great guys and some really good sticks.
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Originally posted by Kegger26
Alittle off topic After spending 30 mins dogfighting you in the DA in a JU87 I am convinced it is a pretty good dog fighter. I even killed two P40s and a Spit 5 in the CT on one sortie, all straight forward dog fighting.
That was probably the most enjoyable duel I've had so far.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Joker312
Zazen, nice troll. Landed alot of fish.
Thank-You ! I was going for the record. Haven't counted yet, still baiting the hook :aok At least I do it with style, and try to be creative, kind of like my channel 1 taunting, it's just good clean fun and very entertaining for those who don't take life too seriously. For those who do take life too seriously, I apologize in advance for your stroke, my condolences to your family!
Zazen:cool:
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
LOL Pellik, is that you?
-- Todd/Leviathn
I give you a little crap about flying everywhere with a posse and now whenever someone whines about you I get blamed? Is that the way it is now? ;-)
He ain't me, I'm a shade account for no-one.
-pellik
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Flying one way does not denote mental superiority or finely-honed mental acuity, and neither does flying in a completely contrary manner indicate mental laziness or inferiority. Until you begin to recognize this, you're going to sound like a nutcase.
So, you are saying Lazs sounds like a nutcase?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Rookies die just as easily as any Knitwit/Bishop in this game and those stats are like ranks, virtually meaningless.
ack-ack
The point isn't how hard it is to kill em, the problem lies with actually getting at em in the first place. I find the rooks actually go down easier then bish because they spend so little time actually fighting that they're just out of practice.
To add my two cents to the general conversation above this post, I think that this is why the rooks tend to have "better" stats every tour. I've been complaining a lot these last few tours that the rooks seem to be far more "cowardly" in their flying then the bish. I've frequently found myself low and slow with a rook over me, only to have him refuse to do more then shadow me until he gets help. This isn't to say that all countrys don't behave in this sort of behavior, just that the rooks seem to do it more. And who's supprised when this style of flying produces slightly better numbers? Being low in a 2+ on 1 is tough.
If you were to look at the K/H as well as the K/D things would probably balance out a little bit.
-pellik
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I'm just an over-achiever who strives for perfection. Nothing particular to AH, I am like that in every facet of my life. My financial success is built upon that virtue, and it serves me equally well in AH.
I will use each and every tool at my disposal if I believe it will enrich my experience and/or bring me closer to my archetypical ideal of perfection.:aok
Zazen
Is your "financial success" linked with those late night "how to make money" informercials I see on TV? The ones that don't seem to offer a product but consist entierly of an overly enthusiastic salesman throwing out mal-formed slogans like "unlocking the key to financial success"? Kinda sounds like it.
-pellik
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZ:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:rolleyes:
AAR from your latest 25k "fly real" flight?
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having a prob shane ??
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Originally posted by pellik
I give you a little crap about flying everywhere with a posse and now whenever someone whines about you I get blamed? Is that the way it is now? ;-)
[/B]
That was a joke. Lighten up, Francis. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Steve
So, you are saying Lazs sounds like a nutcase?
Having flown with Lazs before, I can say that he is Grade A certifiably insane.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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hehe steve.... that may be but.... the people who fly like you are metavoss and zazen... have you ever seen more anal, uptight nutjobs?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
hehe steve.... that may be but.... the people who fly like you are metavoss and zazen... have you ever seen more anal, uptight nutjobs?
lazs
Lazs, I think you are the only one that doesn't realise the 'spirit' of this thread, get a clue dude! :rofl
Zazen:cool:
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Originally posted by pellik
Is your "financial success" linked with those late night "how to make money" informercials I see on TV? The ones that don't seem to offer a product but consist entierly of an overly enthusiastic salesman throwing out mal-formed slogans like "unlocking the key to financial success"? Kinda sounds like it.
-pellik
Ahh , So you've seen my 'product' on TV then! ;)
Zazen:cool:
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Originally posted by pellik
The point isn't how hard it is to kill em, the problem lies with actually getting at em in the first place. I find the rooks actually go down easier then bish because they spend so little time actually fighting that they're just out of practice.
To add my two cents to the general conversation above this post, I think that this is why the rooks tend to have "better" stats every tour. I've been complaining a lot these last few tours that the rooks seem to be far more "cowardly" in their flying then the bish. I've frequently found myself low and slow with a rook over me, only to have him refuse to do more then shadow me until he gets help. This isn't to say that all countrys don't behave in this sort of behavior, just that the rooks seem to do it more. And who's supprised when this style of flying produces slightly better numbers? Being low in a 2+ on 1 is tough.
If you were to look at the K/H as well as the K/D things would probably balance out a little bit.
-pellik
Some of this is true to a point, especially the out of practice part. I found long long ago, that if I didn't 'practice' TnB regularly I tended to be too gentle when pushing the envelope was required. E-Fighting tactics require alot more in the way of watching your G's and maximizing energy efficiency in high speed maneuvers. This differs greatly from the low speed maneuvering concerns where getting the 'angle' is the primary goal. It is a totally different 'mind-set'. Because of this there has always been a certain degree of antipathy between the proponents of the two styles. It is for this very reason I conscientiously practice TnB everyday. It has helped my K/D on my Zazen account in that if I do get caught in a compromising position in my Energy Fighter I can almost always 'angles fight' my way out.
As far as engaging a lower con, I realize some may do that but I do not. I will engage any number of cons with the advantage. Realise though there are times when the sacrafice in Energy and tactical positioning (ie: con is dragging you out of position toward their base,friendlies, or ack) is so severe that it is imprudent to commit to an attack even on a single target.
Zazen:cool:
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the people who fly like you are metavoss and zazen...
I have no idea how Meta flies.. I've literally NEVER fought him, plane to plane.
I can tell you Zazen doesn't fly like me, he chooses to go quite a bit higher and strictly BnZ. I love the deck stuff in a pony. Yes, my pony may fly faster than the spits and niks but they have their advantages, I have mine. :)
Edit: This in no way presumes to indicate that I am any more sane or stable than you, Lazs; since we seem to agree on the most basic premises of the game and how maps should be laid out.
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Originally posted by Steve
I have no idea how Meta flies.. I've literally NEVER fought him, plane to plane.
I can tell you Zazen doesn't fly like me, he chooses to go quite a bit higher and strictly BnZ. I love the deck stuff in a pony. Yes, my pony may fly faster than the spits and niks but they have their advantages, I have mine. :)
Edit: This in no way presumes to indicate that I am any more sane or stable than you, Lazs; since we seem to agree on the most basic premises of the game and how maps should be laid out.
Steve ... you are truly certifiable ... :D
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Originally posted by Steve
I have no idea how Meta flies.. I've literally NEVER fought him, plane to plane.
I can tell you Zazen doesn't fly like me, he chooses to go quite a bit higher and strictly BnZ. I love the deck stuff in a pony. Yes, my pony may fly faster than the spits and niks but they have their advantages, I have mine. :)
Edit: This in no way presumes to indicate that I am any more sane or stable than you, Lazs; since we seem to agree on the most basic premises of the game and how maps should be laid out.
Don't know about altitude, I generally never go above 20k unless chasing a buff. My ride of choice is the Typhoon which is a real pig above 18k, I tend to stay in the 15 to 18k range. Saying I only BnZ is a big generalization, I E-Fight which includes BnZ, but is not limited to it. But, all things considered, if I am low and slow, angles fighting Nikis and Spits on the deck in my P47d-30 or Typhoon I must have screwed up in my strategy badly somewhere on the way down! :aok
Zazen
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Don't know about altitude, I generally never go above 20k unless chasing a buff. My ride of choice is the Typhoon which is a real pig above 18k, I tend to stay in the 15 to 18k range
My statement was based on your description of a typical sortie for you. 12k is high for me.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Some of this is true to a point, especially the out of practice part. I found long long ago, that if I didn't 'practice' TnB regularly I tended to be too gentle when pushing the envelope was required.
Zazen:cool:
I was watching you turn fight in a F6F the other day when you were on your 'shades' account and it looked like you needed a little more practice.
ack-ack
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Steve ... you are truly certifiable ...
Thanks buddy, I feel like I've finally arrived.
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Originally posted by lazs2
the people who fly like you are metavoss and zazen
That's a bit unfair. Steve flies to live, but he flies a much more aggressive style than the others. What he does exposes him to, at least, the potential for risk. I consider him a much better pilot than Voss or Zazen by far, and he's far less prone to tooting his own horn for no reason.
But, of course, he's also insane.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
That's a bit unfair. Steve flies to live, but he flies a much more aggressive style than the others. What he does exposes him to, at least, the potential for risk. I consider him a much better pilot than Voss or Zazen by far, and he's far less prone to tooting his own horn for no reason.
But, of course, he's also insane.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Gotta agree there, Steve is better at this game than I am, by far. He also seems to be more modest ;)
Zazen:cool:
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Originally posted by Steve
12k is high for me.
Steve's changed :D
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Steve's changed
Heehee. You got me there WT. :p
I used to be one of those guys that wandered in at 20k.
I attended a 12 step program at Altmonkeys Anonymous and although I'm completely insane, I was cured of this dreadful AH sickness.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
But, of course, he's also insane.
-- Todd/Leviathn
And he has an uncanny knack for finding me AFK.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And he has an uncanny knack for finding me AFK.
ack-ack
lol, you're AFK so much that everyone has an uncanny knack for finding you AFK. If you quit smoking your K/D would sky-rocket.
-pellik
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Lol AKAK I remember those days in Euro. Every couple of days I'd run into your AFK 38. I think I even won a few of them. :)
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sorry steve... dmf is right. you are not as bad as metavoss or zazen.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sorry steve... dmf is right. you are not as bad as metavoss or zazen.
lazs
We knew you'd come around ;)
Zazen:cool:
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Bumping this thread as it was brought up in the latest, "Rooks have numbers on Sunday's", whine thread.
Zazen