Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bikekil on February 02, 2004, 07:07:00 AM
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allways been... :lol
as long as France, Germany and GB will be pushing the cart in the other direction Europe will be weak :)
As long as France, Germany and GB will try to held the "king of the hill" position (this is what really funny), europe will be weak :)
I'm glad Poland is too weak to participate in the king of the hill compatition... so as rest of the countries... that wouldn't be fun anymore... that would be sad :rolleyes:
just sayin
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The EU is currently run by villainous cretins. If you want to replace them with corrupt, former KGB, Eastern European gangsters, be my guest.
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Originally posted by Dowding
The EU is currently run by villainous cretins...
I believe the technical term is "politicians".
Daniel
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Interchangeable terms of reference.
But the European politicians seem to be worse than British ones. Distain, Berlusconi - all would be in jail under British law. And not for minor offences like perjury (which British politicians have perchant for) - but major offences like fraud and embezzlement.
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EU is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar (at least that far) from being a "political" power. Who cares about what EU said? Others do care more about the "powerfull" countries of Europe say... and they say other things each.
It's interesing how USA can be a "union" of many states and live with it.
In europe once people are united, they are looking at the way to bake the union and come up with something better and new... :lol
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It probably has something to do with the complex most europeans have regarding the US and europes inability to keep up....of course, they do encourage nudity on tv, which we all know is good for ya.
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"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."
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Originally posted by Dowding
"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."
You're so easy Dowding...just like playin with a puppy.
BTW....Britian is not Europe in my opinion...the Brits have balls and loyalty....can't say that for most of Europe.
I do like Poland tho....good folks.
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Since we are continuing in the uncorroborated judgements...
Seems to me most Americans have a complex regarding Europe... if you decide to exercise your sovereignty by following the will of your people, you are deemed to have no balls... if you go the way of the poodle and leave the decision making up to Washington you're deemed to be loyal. How very gracious!
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Originally posted by bike killa
It's interesing how USA can be a "union" of many states and live with it.
It only took a civil war with 600,000 dead for us to figure it out.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Since we are continuing in the uncorroborated judgements...
Seems to me most Americans have a complex regarding Europe... if you decide to exercise your sovereignty by following the will of your people, you are deemed to have no balls... if you go the way of the poodle and leave the decision making up to Washington you're deemed to be loyal. How very gracious!
Not just Europe, here too. If you have the balls to stand up and say what you believe to be best for the country, half the time you're told you're unpatriotic and you should go to Iraq or France. The government is right, everyone else is not.
I r ignant.
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Oh shut up Tarmac! you france loving *****!
GO eat snails with the french!!
:aok
I do not think comparing the EU to the US is a very good comparison?
Maybe I am wrong on this and basing it on how I feel now. But I consider myself an American, I am from cali but I do not look at someone from montana as anything less then me. We are all citizens of the USA and the state is just where we live.
Any pride I have is being from the US, not cali.
Maybe this was different a long time ago... back before the civil war, or maybe I am just odd. But all my friends are like this too.
I would think that national best interest from the various countries is going to sabatage the EU pretty badly in many cases.
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Go visit europe sometime rude, and then tell me who has a complex.(no poland isnt europe, thats east europe kinda like grouping mexico with the USA). Most europeons dont care about the US unless our policys affect them.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Most europeons dont care about the US unless our policys affect them.
You can't be serious.:lol
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Go visit europe sometime rude, and then tell me who has a complex.(no poland isnt europe, thats east europe kinda like grouping mexico with the USA). Most europeons dont care about the US unless our policys affect them.
that's the good one, so please tell me where exaclty is the center point of europe (as a continent)?
You are not talking about "political" eupore and eastern europe i believe... just a geography?
That or other way i'd be more then curious th hear where the center of europe is... that could help to tell is Poland more Europen contry then Spain, Portugal or... Finland
Then IF any of the other countried i mentioned are European and Poland still isn't i would as a question is there are geography lessons in your country :)
Let me help you. Here is the map - http://www.yourchildlearns.com/europe_map.htm
Tarmac,
...that could lead us to conclusion then people here are different... many wars by ages... then WW1 and WW2... i'm afraid to guess how many people lost their lifes just because Euros are too stupid to get together.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Most europeons dont care about the US unless our policys affect them.
Most American's don't care about European policy unless it affects them.
Think they care if Janet Jackson shows her boob during SuperBowl Half time...
Thilly American's puritans and their moronic mores.... shocked when they see a beautiful woman's breast, but disappointed when the gore and violence in Friday the 13th isn't "real" enough.
You're point?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Since we are continuing in the uncorroborated judgements...
Seems to me most Americans have a complex regarding Europe... if you decide to exercise your sovereignty by following the will of your people, you are deemed to have no balls... if you go the way of the poodle and leave the decision making up to Washington you're deemed to be loyal. How very gracious!
Stop it will ya.
Here's the skinny from Rude's perspective....the common folks of this big world of ours have and will continue to get pinched by the powerful....in most cases, leadership.
I have every reason to believe the people of Europe are good people....raising families, striving to support themselves and provide for a life free of pain and unpleasantness, however.....
The Governments are a different matter.
In my little ol meaningless opinion, France, Germany, Russia and many other smaller so called allies of the US were no such thing. I know, I know....the old if they don't agree with you thingie.
Look....if I stand with you, then I stand with you....I don't care what you've done, I'll support you in every way I possibly can. I might not approve of what you're doing or have done, but I will stand by you nonetheless.
France and Germany make myself and most Americans sick to our stomachs....they cannot stand the US and have felt that way for years. Now before you decide that I'm just some guy on the internet, I have aquaintances throughout Europe and Canada.....90% have and still do feel that Europeans in general are jealous of the USA and have been brought up in that atmosphere all of their lives.
Not providing combat troops in Iraq is one thing....wishing to remain neutral is cool too....standing up against us is an entirely different matter.
Watch closely after our election.....the relationship dynamic is going to change between France/Germany and the USA....information which to this point in time has remained concealed will be loosed after our Presidential Election.
Hey....perhaps Kerry will win and then a career Washingtion politician will bring back the staus quo! HUMINT will recieve no funding and we can have us another 9/11.
It's certainly not like we thought it would be when we were kids eh?
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Originally posted by Tarmac
It only took a civil war with 600,000 dead for us to figure it out.
They've had far more many dead over the centuries in Europe and it seems unlikely to me it will ever be any different. Maybe it is time to let the women take charge.
Just kiddin' Lazs ;)
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Bike your comparaison is completly flawed just one simple example : if you entre the USA your under the constitution of the USA whatever place you are.
Now remind me the name of the 2 Europeans states who made the attempt of an European constition a no-go ?
Gniark :D
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Originally posted by GScholz
Rude, America and Europe stood together during the Cold War, and Korea, and to some extent Vietnam. In most if not all previous political and military conflicts Europe stood by you because we though you were right, and America likewise stood by Europe. After 9/11 the WORLD stood by you, and many nation pledged forces to stand by you in Afghanistan, because we thought you were right. This time, with the invasion of Iraq in spite of the will of the UN we don't think you are right, and you will have to excuse us for saying so.
Like I said....to disagree is fine...to standby and refuse help is good too....to actively stand in our way like Germany and France did for reasons which had nothing to do with just disagreeing is inexcusable.
They've made their beds....their only hope for a return to corruption is Kerry.
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Originally posted by straffo
Bike your comparaison is completly flawed just one simple example : if you entre the USA your under the constitution of the USA whatever place you are.
Now remind me the name of the 2 Europeans states who made the attempt of an European constition a no-go ?
Gniark :D
Then Straffo, please tell me what comparision is flawed and why exactly, becaus ei still can't see your point here.
Other then that, if you 've asked :)
EU promised us a system of voting inside of the EU. That system was gining us some position there (no matter how important, but adequate to the 40000000+ population here). We've discussed with EU, agreed on something.. then people voted here (including myself). I've voted for joining the EU (just a note as i'd like to speak for myself not the whole Poles).
Generally people here decided that they want Poland to join EU -WTFG some would say...
then after every "new for EU" country voted, EU decided to chance the rules and annonced a change of voting system inside of the EU.... it's not hard to guess that the "new" one was not really close to to the one we were promised before... and would put us into the weaker position. I believe if this would happened to France, Germany or... GB you would scream as loud as possible that it's unfair :) No matter what you say this is still something that wasn't done right.
Now i could say screw EU if they are playing dirty with us... that's my vote, however i can't vote again because it already happened.
If that's the way business are doine in the EU - screw the EU.
If the new system is better then the old one (i see that it could be possible :) ) then why EU havn't come up with it before we voted for joining? Why our corrupted politicians agreed with EU on something and then EU decided to change the deal before we joined but after we voted? that sucks :)
i believe with EU that sucks so bad, we will be behind US... biiig time behing and for long. I thign China will be ahead of us pretty soon also - good or bad i dont' care, that's what Europe is for me.. and i still like europe :)
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So bike, i guess you voted no for Poland to join the EU?
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Due to the Frogm4n definition of Europe, Poland is no longer a part of it. So european Mexico decided USA is right about Iraq :)
I loved to see how Chirac got mad about it :lol
Maniac, as i said "I've voted for joining the EU".If i knew EU is giong to change the deal before we joined but after we decided to join, i would reconsider. Not because i don't like the EU idea - i like it. Not because i do care about the money EU will probablt spent here (i dont't care and i guess i will never see any of it myself). I just don't like the whole "broken promises" way that is so populer in the "western" europe :)
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lol rude, you need some help. If you really think that bush is a washington outsider your kidding yourself. And i think when you say most americans are sick to their stomachs over germany france etc., you really should say about 30 percent who are the hard core facist republicans.
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Sorry i just dont respect most ex soviet satillite countrys right now. They are still fairly backwards government wise. Although poland is slightly ahead of the rest. Give them 20 or so years, and i think they will be in the 21st century.
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Originally posted by bike killa
Tarmac,
...that could lead us to conclusion then people here are different... many wars by ages... then WW1 and WW2... i'm afraid to guess how many people lost their lifes just because Euros are too stupid to get together.
On the contrary, I'd say that the things going on in the EU are very similar to the founding of the US. A group of separate, autonomous states comes together under a constitution, establishes free trade, and eventually standardizes its currency. After a while, political and economic decisions are made centrally. Then, the constitutional government begins to intrude on the autonomy of the member states' sovereignty, by passing laws over them in the name of free trade or morality or whatever.
Eventually, some of the states feel that the central decision making body does not represent them anymore - even if it's a 49-51 split. These member states rebel in some way - they declare an EU/Federal resolution null within their borders. The larger body retaliates and says "You can't do that."
The states say "Well, if we can't ignore you under the rules of the central constitution, then we'll withdraw from it."
Again, the central government says "You can't do that."
The states say, "Yes we can, we signed on to it voluntarily so we can voluntarily withdraw from it."
And then things get ugly.
That's the American Civil war in a nutshell. I see the same seeds being sown in the EU right now. I sincerely hope you can overcome the challenges presented without losing your individual liberties, but based on the similar events of the American Civil War I don't think it's possible.
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Bike if you expect fairness in the EU you're just screwed :)
I've lost track of all what changed since last consultation for the Maastrich traity ...
I said your comparaison was flawed mainly because even if there is some friction between (for example) Californian and New Yorker if your slap one they will soon be american again and beat the crap of you.
Now I guess that if you slap a French, a German won't care ...
It's just because their is NO european nation yet. and it won't happen just because some politician/business man want the EU for their own need.
The fondation of the USA and EU are completly different.
And btw as far as it hurt my polish pride I do think that poland will be over represented with the current setup and it's not good.
I had to dig a bit to find the number because I was not sure :
Spain 27 votes for 39 millions
Poland 27 votes for 38 millions
Germany 29 votes for 82 millions
It's perhaps your vision of democratia, it's not mine
Frankly as a EU member I don't give a [beep] if Poland enter or not EU , it won't change my day life.
Our jobs are already going to Asia ... perhaps will it change with the arrival of Poland but when I here some business mand saying that Chine is slowly becoming costly I won't count on it :(
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Over represented because of money we will pay/take - yes, for sure :)
Over represented because of the numper of people we have here - no :)
That's why i think that the whole EU idea (that is really nice) is screwed. It's based on the money that someone can won there. It's still all same $h.t
I wish Poland will take none and pay none to the EU. I wish then i will not hear that we are over represented. I wish someone who have enought mony will buy the companies, factories and everything we have to sell here as i wish we could have a chance to buy something in EU. This would be fair.
I'm also sure it won't happened. EU don't love us. US don't love us and we have to take care of our business like any other country.
I just don;t like the idea of being "owned" :)
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I edited my post :)
To answer shortly to your last post (it won't be long as I've a bad flue)
So far it worked I don't see why the model will fail (for now) , you sure have to pay but no engine run without fuel and if you want to progess toward the future you just have to put some fuel.
EU is not only an administration sit in Brussel ,it also a promise for our childrens.
One good side of EU is that it force an imbrication of the state member which is good to avoid future conflict.
Concidering the owned part I don't believe in generosity between states especially when there is no rule.
You now like me how fast a promise can be forgotten especially when there is a lot of distance ...
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Straffo, our vision of democracia as you say is built by the value of money. Your opinion is that if country is giving more money, should have more votes. It';s cool.. however...
I can't see it a good deal for Poland, to be the one of the biggesst populations in EU and having very little votes.
The voting system you've posted was introduced to Poland before people here decided to vote for or against joining the EU. We voted and then suddenly EU decided to change the system before we joined EU. This is the democracy you see fair?
Believe me, as much as i like the EU idea i say this move sucks bit time and smells bad. I also wish we have a chance to vote again... that would be fair i think.
But the way i see it, is Poland don't take the EU money, have a number of voted adeqate to the population. As investments are free, everyone who'd like to invest his provate money could do it. It would be more fair, the to have no impact on the EU things once having great number of people on-board.
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There isn't really a comparison between the founding of the USA and what is going on in Europe.
The 13 Colonies were all English speaking with a more or less homogenouse culture and history. The EU states are linguisticly and culturally much more diverse.
In my opinion the EU has gone too far (at least for now):
Some standardization is good (as long as it isn't taken too far).
Free trade and travel is good.
Having someone in Brussels or Strasbourg decide on fiscal policy (let alone social or foreign policy) is bad.
Westminster is already far too detached from the way ordinary people in the UK think and feel: Brussels is even further away.
The whole concept of a one size fits all European constitution is ridiculous. What I find sensible, acceptable and necessary as a Brition is not the same as what a Frenchman or a German thinks, let alone a Pole or a Czech (for example the whole headscarf thing going on in France).
Maybe one day, many generations hence there will have been enough commonality of history and culture for there to be a United States of Europe but trying to force one through now is insane.
Having said that whatever the US feels about Old Europe and it's wars, the chance of a war amongst EU states is virtually nil. How the hell can the UK go to war with France when they are the ones building our warships? How can we fight Germany when they make our steel? The whole "Europe hasn't learned anything" rant is stupid. What lead to the major wars in Europe was "me first" power politics and the nationalism that supported it. What worries modern Europeans about current US policy is that it looks like it is starting to abandon the consensus policies of the late 20th century in favour of something that looks very like what the Great Powers did in the early 20th century. Europe has learned where that leads, has the US?
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I've not been past your first line cause obviously I didn't expressed my thought correctly
Spain 27 votes for 39 millions
Poland 27 votes for 38 millions
Germany 29 votes for 82 millions
Personnaly I wouldn't have voted for the entry of Poland giving the current setup I would have voted against (but none asked my opinion ... democratia don't work really well in Europe... at leats not like in Swiss)
I personnaly don't see the point of having 1 vote for 1.44 million Pole and 1 vote for 2.82 million German.
It's flawed.
You can notice I didn't used a French example it's not a question of national pride or money it's a question of principle (my own not the "principle" of a French politician)
back to bed now
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Originally posted by GScholz
How did they "stand in your way"? They opposed your UN draft resolution on Iraq. That is their right. Have France or Germany sent troops to oppose you? No.
Politically....they spoke out purposefully to derail US efforts...not what an ally does.
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Originally posted by Rude
France and Germany make myself and most Americans sick to our stomachs....they cannot stand the US and have felt that way for years.
"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."
"The Harris Poll. Aug. 12-17, 2003. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
“Do you feel that [see below] is a close ally of the U.S., is friendly but not a close ally, is not friendly but not an enemy, or is unfriendly and is an enemy of the U.S.?"
Close Ally / Friendly / Not Friendly / Enemy / Not Sure
Germany 19 / 42 / 20 / 8 / 10
France 13 / 33 / 34 / 9 / 10"
See were shooting your mouth off gets you?
Now before you decide that I'm just some guy on the internet, I have aquaintances throughout Europe and Canada.....90% have and still do feel that Europeans in general are jealous of the USA and have been brought up in that atmosphere all of their lives.
"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."
So what? You think that is somehow an unbiased sample? Please. :rolleyes:
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contemporary problem of Eu is in my opinion fact that O)#$%^#)$& socialist run it
Problem of socialist all over the Europe is that they support corruption a lot. They have no moreale and public laying is quite usual all around Eu.
Western part of Eu (ritch) wanne to have benefits of cheap east
and in the same moment they dont want easterns even to work in western part.
Eu is in serious problem and vision of free trade in Eu is only fairy tail. At least for 10 new countries.
But people are allowed to travell all around w/o problems so it will sort out somehow...
viva black economy :D
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
lol rude, you need some help. If you really think that bush is a washington outsider your kidding yourself. And i think when you say most americans are sick to their stomachs over germany france etc., you really should say about 30 percent who are the hard core facist republicans.
30%? Check the poll data.
January 31, 2003
Great Britain: An Ally Apart From the Rest
Saudi Arabia seen as more reliable than France on Iraq
by Lydia Saad
Americans make a sharp distinction between Great Britain and other would-be allies in the American-led effort to oust Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. The public is confident about the reliability of Great Britain in this context, but is divided about Turkey and widely skeptical about France, Germany, Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia. Two-thirds also believe that European countries like France and Germany owe the United States their support. While Americans generally disagree with the approach these European countries are taking toward Iraq, a slim majority believes they are willing to do their fair share to fight terrorism.
This from Gallup....oh, btw....stop kiddin yourself:)
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Originally posted by Dowding
the way of the poodle
GB is a ninth dan black belt in the "Way of the Poodle"
:)
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but we do not thing about killing each other ... (progress :P )
thats good... now its race in robbing :D
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Polish women are the most beautiful women in the world.
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yup i did hear that they are lovely...
but most beautiful women are supposed to be persian.... so far i can confirm it :D
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."
"The Harris Poll. Aug. 12-17, 2003. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
“Do you feel that [see below] is a close ally of the U.S., is friendly but not a close ally, is not friendly but not an enemy, or is unfriendly and is an enemy of the U.S.?"
Close Ally / Friendly / Not Friendly / Enemy / Not Sure
Germany 19 / 42 / 20 / 8 / 10
France 13 / 33 / 34 / 9 / 10"
See were shooting your mouth off gets you?
"That's another completely uncorroborated statement by Rude. Tune in next week for more of the same."
So what? You think that is somehow an unbiased sample? Please. :rolleyes:
Guess it depends on where ya get your data eh?
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you said disgusted with our allies rude, your supposed gallup poll(link?) still does not support your arguement. its one thing to say one disagee's with a policy, its another to say they are disgusted with it. Go to europe, you will still get special treatment from almost anywhere you go for being an american. They harbor no hate for our people that you do for theirs.
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Originally posted by Pei
There isn't really a comparison between the founding of the USA and what is going on in Europe.
The 13 Colonies were all English speaking with a more or less homogenouse culture and history. The EU states are linguisticly and culturally much more diverse.
In my opinion the EU has gone too far (at least for now):
Some standardization is good (as long as it isn't taken too far).
Free trade and travel is good.
Having someone in Brussels or Strasbourg decide on fiscal policy (let alone social or foreign policy) is bad.
Westminster is already far too detached from the way ordinary people in the UK think and feel: Brussels is even further away.
The whole concept of a one size fits all European constitution is ridiculous. What I find sensible, acceptable and necessary as a Brition is not the same as what a Frenchman or a German thinks, let alone a Pole or a Czech (for example the whole headscarf thing going on in France).
Maybe one day, many generations hence there will have been enough commonality of history and culture for there to be a United States of Europe but trying to force one through now is insane.
Having said that whatever the US feels about Old Europe and it's wars, the chance of a war amongst EU states is virtually nil. How the hell can the UK go to war with France when they are the ones building our warships? How can we fight Germany when they make our steel? The whole "Europe hasn't learned anything" rant is stupid. What lead to the major wars in Europe was "me first" power politics and the nationalism that supported it. What worries modern Europeans about current US policy is that it looks like it is starting to abandon the consensus policies of the late 20th century in favour of something that looks very like what the Great Powers did in the early 20th century. Europe has learned where that leads, has the US?
Good points Pei...shame it'll be lost in the one up-manship, squabbling, and general frothing of the mouth that this subject usually brings...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Pei
In my opinion the EU has gone too far (at least for now):
Some standardization is good (as long as it isn't taken too far).
Free trade and travel is good.
Having someone in Brussels or Strasbourg decide on fiscal policy (let alone social or foreign policy) is bad.
Westminster is already far too detached from the way ordinary people in the UK think and feel: Brussels is even further away.
The whole concept of a one size fits all European constitution is ridiculous. What I find sensible, acceptable and necessary as a Brition is not the same as what a Frenchman or a German thinks, let alone a Pole or a Czech (for example the whole headscarf thing going on in France).
Maybe one day, many generations hence there will have been enough commonality of history and culture for there to be a United States of Europe but trying to force one through now is insane.
Having said that whatever the US feels about Old Europe and it's wars, the chance of a war amongst EU states is virtually nil. [/i]
To think that the chance of war in Europe is virtualy nil is complety ignorant. Do you not see the reasons you yourself have listed? Having a EU deciding each country's direction when there is so much diversity will only lead to MORE tension some day.
Seems like Europe really hasn't learn much. This union is divisive ( word play intended) It carries a great risk of war in my opinion.
Some day one of these countries is going to decide that they are getting screwed by the rest of the EU, and there will be a war I believe.......a big war.
I for one see the writing on the wall.
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Well said Pei.
I'm sorry Bike Killa, but you seem to be suggesting that Poland should have the same voice as France, Germany or Britain. How can that possibly be fair? The big three are the EU as far as the majority of the funding goes - who do you think is bankrolling the big infrastructure improvements in your own country?
Personally, I don't mind more money going to Eastern European states - but I don't trust your politicians (I barely trust my own), and I believe it will take decades before the corruption and blatant criminality of certain former Eastern Bloc nations is ironed out.
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Nuke - you're talking rubbish. Britain and France have nuclear weapons. If anyone wants to get uppity, they better mean it. While I'm not the greatest of fans of the EU, it has done a great job of stabilising relations across the continent. As we slowly bring the former Soviet states in from the cold, I expect the chances of war will continue to diminish.
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Originally posted by bike killa
EU is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar (at least that far) from being a "political" power. Who cares about what EU said? Others do care more about the "powerfull" countries of Europe say... and they say other things each.
It's interesing how USA can be a "union" of many states and live with it.
In europe once people are united, they are looking at the way to bake the union and come up with something better and new... :lol
US is pretty much one country, but EU is a whole lot of countries.
US has one president and a board of ministers, states do not have their own ministers.
In EU each country has their own president/king and a bunch of ministers..
Thats what it makes it complicated.
EU countries do have sort of states as well, the provinces.
Provinces can have some minor differencies in laws, their courts definately acts different from each other, some of the taxes...
Those just doesn't act as independently as states do, but much closer to comparison between US states, than the EU as whole.
It'd be easier if EU would have just one president and a goverment, but I doubt there would be many who would like of the thought.. I don't.
Europe is far more culturally and language divided than US.
How'd you like if you would travel from east coast to west coast and find out the people are speaking austrian instead of english and have a whole different architechture and other stuff? ;)
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Originally posted by straffo
Now remind me the name of the 2 Europeans states who made the attempt of an European constition a no-go ?
Just one: France ;)
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January 31, 2003
Great Britain: An Ally Apart From the Rest
Saudi Arabia seen as more reliable than France on Iraq
And what, 7/10 Americans thought Iraq were behind the 911 attacks? It speaks volumes really.
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You know, I keep hearing about that poll, but I've not met one American that thinks Iraq was involved.
Did you know 9/10 choosy moms choose JIF?
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm sorry Bike Killa, but you seem to be suggesting that Poland should have the same voice as France, Germany or Britain. How can that possibly be fair? The big three are the EU as far as the majority of the funding goes - who do you think is bankrolling the big infrastructure improvements in your own country?
Maybe i can't express myself good, or you can's see it. First thing about the EU (or you woudl say "big three") is the good old way of "fooling" our politicians with the vision. Then if the got cought, the deal apears to be different then promised. I will say once more - this sucks :)
Other thing i would like to see myself is to have the SAME right to decide about the EU future like other countries. Just because Poland got sold to soviets by the "allies" and now have to catchup on things i don't want to be ruled by that "allies" again... because i don't trust them. It may sounds harsh, but i don';t think "big three" will take care of my business... just for "big three" business.
then let me say it again. I wish i have the same right to decide about the future of EU (once we decided to join EU) and have 0 (ZERO) money from the EU once paying 0 to EU... that sounds fair? i believe that some would invest the PRIVATE money here and got his PRIVATE pockets full. I do care as much about "bit three" pockets ad they should care about mine :)
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Why should you have more right to decide EU policy than a Brit, a Frenchman or German? That is what you are saying if you insist on Poland having the same voice (smaller population).
I don't know what the answer is, but it should lie somewhere between direct proportional representation and parity.
This thing about Poland being 'sold' to Russia; how could it have been avoided? Atomic war with Russia to free Poland? I'm sorry, but that is completely unrealistic. Millions would have died, and after 6 years of war prior to that, it wasn't exactly a welcome prospect.
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You guys could have an Electoral College setup for the EU. That's a balancing mechanism.
It's a lot of fun! Give it a try.
;)
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lol :D
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You know Dowding, i just think we are not "adult" anought (as a countries) to be over the old way of thinking. We are not adult anought to be united :)
And that's why we are weak.
Problem is that i'd hate to see Poland having more iumpact on the EU then it should have.
The post of not paying and not taking anyting form EU was just my wish, however i have no doubt it's impossible.
I wish Brits have the same chance do decide about the furure on EU as the Poles ... or let's say Hungarians will have. To find the right formula is something what will decide about success of faliure of EU. I don;t see the current and proposed voting system good enought.
Other thing is that i'm not a nationalist. I wish everyone who see it as a good deal can come here and buy whatever he want to. I know that way noone can say "hey, you owe us so much.. shuddup now".
some said that we have France and Germany against us because of supporting US in Iraq. I don't think it's that way (however seing Chirac got mad about it is a great fun and actually makes me proud that i'm a Pole) but IF (just a "what if") it'd be true, i wish i owe nothing to them... and i can show them my finger and do what i think i should. I believe Gernans, Brits and every nation likes to feel the can do it because they decided so.
Point is there in NO external and internal politic of EU that suits a needs of all members of EU (Poland is not in EU yet). Without it, there will not be a united Europe.
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Toad, i'd agree of sharing votes based on the National Football (the real one) Teams position in the FIFA rankings.
Maybe our team would work a bit harder then and i had something interesting to watch in TV :D
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Well, you could also do it like the UN. One voter per country in the "General Assembly" of the EU. Then a special "SuperDuper Council" that gives veto power to say... England, France and Germany.
Oh...... wait........ we've already seen how that setup works.
;)
Best go with the Electoral College idea. Each nation state conducts it's own votes and then their "Electoral Votes" are cast, the number reflecting their individual populations.
Just don't get the machines that punch out paper chads. Could get messy. :D
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I know what you're saying Bike Killa, it is a tricky system to sort out and absolutely critical. I also don't mind the fact that Poland etc receive proportionately more EU money than the Western countries; I like to think it will benefit the continent as whole.
What I do have a problem with is the current undemocratic, over-bureaucratic set-up regarding the Commission and I despise beyond words the Berlusconi's, the Distain's and Prodi's within the EU. They are powermad nutcases or crooks or both. I wouldn't trust them with a penny of my money given the choice. I guess I am a bit Euro-skeptical, but like the concept of a unified Europe. The question is how to account for cultural differences and identity within the EU.
The electoral college works inversely with the state populations, Toad? I always thought it allowed small population "wilderness" states to have the same voice as densely populated city states.
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What Pei said is right.
Population not being homogenious will always be the brakes on EU car.
Unfortunatelly today most people think of themselves as Polish/ French first, europian second. Till those roles reverse, you won't have a EU in its true meaning.
And it will take a generation or two.
Opening borders to trade, travel and work will help people see past their little town mentality.
It won't be tomorrow, but it will happend.
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No, it's actually a pretty slick system. The old guys were pretty smart.
Every State gets TWO Senators. Period. Fixed rule, independent of population.
The total number of seats in the House of Representatives is limited to 435. (I don't know how or when they decided on 435, but they did. I'm sure I could google it up.)
Every State also gets ONE House Representative, no matter how small its population. Additional Representatives are based on population above this "minimum".
Each State is allocated a number of Electors equal to the number of its U.S. Senators (always 2) plus the number of its U.S. Representatives (which may change each decade according to the size of each State's population as determined in the Census).
So, there's an "equality factor" from the two "Senatorial Electors" but it's also adjusted for population "House of Representatives Electors."
The Census, as you can see, is of MAJOR importance in our political system. A lot of folks don't realize that.
So all you EU's would have to decide a "max number of Representatives to apportion those votes.
Each would get a base of say 2 EU College votes (Senators) and then you'd get 1 more no matter what your population. This ensures everyone has at least 3 votes. Then, additional votes would apportioned based on the "max" and your population over the "minimum".
Our minimum works like this (I'm sure you physicists types like formulas. ;) )
COMPUTING APPORTIONMENT (http://www.census.gov/population/www/censusdata/apportionment/computing.html)
Equal Proportions Method
P - represents a state's total population
n - represents the number of seats a state would have if it gained a seat (because all states automatically received one seat the next seat gained is "seat two," and the next "seat three," and the next "seat four," and so on.)
The multiplier equals (1 divided by (the square root of n(n-1)) [which is called the reciprocal of the geometric mean]. Computing these values is quite easy using a PC and a good spreadsheet package.
Thus the formula for calculating the multiplier for the second
seat is:
(1 divided by the square root of 2(2-1))
or
1/1.414213562 or 0.70710678
the multiplier for the third seat is:
(1 divided by the square root of 3(3-1))
or
1/2.449489743 or 0.40824829
the multiplier for the fourth seat is:
(1 divided by the square root of 4(4-1))
or
1/3.464101615 or 0.288675134
Continue until an appropriate number of multipliers
have been calculated.
Once the "multipliers" have been calculated, the next step is to multiply this figure by the population total for each of the 50 states (the District of Columbia is not included in these calculations). The resulting numbers are the priority values. Make sure you compute enough multipliers to cover the largest amount of seats in the House of Representatives that any one state stands to gain. Multipliers and priority values must be calculated for the largest number of seats assigned to a state. For example, if the largest number of seats assigned to a state is 50, multipliers and priority values must be calculated for the 50th seat. If you are using a PC, compute multipliers for seats 2 through 60. This will assure you have enough multipliers for apportionment.
Once you've calculated priority values for each state for the total anticipated seats, the next step is to rank and number the resulting priority values starting with seat 51 until all 435 seats have been assigned (remember, each state automatically received one seat). Next, tally the number of seats for each state to arrive at the total number of seats in the House of Representatives apportioned to each state.
Clear and simple, eh? ;)
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Once we are at it:
http://www.eupolitix.com/NR/exeres/FACB7E80-C71B-43F3-B795-B2C381613942
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Originally posted by Toad
No, it's actually a pretty slick system. The old guys were pretty smart.
Every State gets TWO Senators. Period. Fixed rule, independent of population.
I don't feel the need to read further at this point it's pretty evident that the system is rotten in it's root.
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Originally posted by bike killa
allways been... :lol
as long as France, Germany and GB will be pushing the cart in the other direction Europe will be weak :)
As long as France, Germany and GB will try to held the "king of the hill" position (this is what really funny), europe will be weak :)
I'm glad Poland is too weak to participate in the king of the hill compatition... so as rest of the countries... that wouldn't be fun anymore... that would be sad :rolleyes:
just sayin
So if youre the genious that can figure out how it can be run without trying and failing please teach us mate :D
This is a diffucult sortie, many independent countries that is trying to solve problems, that goes between old nations, yeah tell me how you do it easy please ?
This need time lots of time !!
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Originally posted by Toad
No, it's actually a pretty slick system. The old guys were pretty smart.
Every State gets TWO Senators. Period. Fixed rule, independent of population.
The total number of seats in the House of Representatives is limited to 435. (I don't know how or when they decided on 435, but they did. I'm sure I could google it up.)
Every State also gets ONE House Representative, no matter how small its population. Additional Representatives are based on population above this "minimum".
Each State is allocated a number of Electors equal to the number of its U.S. Senators (always 2) plus the number of its U.S. Representatives (which may change each decade according to the size of each State's population as determined in the Census).
So, there's an "equality factor" from the two "Senatorial Electors" but it's also adjusted for population "House of Representatives Electors."
The Census, as you can see, is of MAJOR importance in our political system. A lot of folks don't realize that.
So all you EU's would have to decide a "max number of Representatives to apportion those votes.
Each would get a base of say 2 EU College votes (Senators) and then you'd get 1 more no matter what your population. This ensures everyone has at least 3 votes. Then, additional votes would apportioned based on the "max" and your population over the "minimum".
Our minimum works like this (I'm sure you physicists types like formulas. ;) )
COMPUTING APPORTIONMENT (http://www.census.gov/population/www/censusdata/apportionment/computing.html)
Clear and simple, eh? ;)
Thats how it should be done !!!! But countries like Germany, France and UK will never ever give up the votes they have for the smaller countries in Europe.
And that is the biggest problem for them to agree about anyting.
That is also why Norway stays out until it changes (damn we are only 4 million inhabitants) and because of that reason will be outnumbered big time everytime somthing woulda been voted over.
(and that is not a democraty at all, thank god we are able to support ourselve without any help)
Well personally i dont think Europe is ready for it, but its worth working for cause it is a good idea.
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Look on the bright side Bike Killa, once Poland joins the EU I'll be able to buy myself a nice little place over there with pocket change and spend my holidays improving the local gene pool. :p
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Ya'll should just sit back and take a look at all of what has been written by each of you and will notice one thing that has been a big problem for all of the world for centuries, lack of willingness to sit back and listen to the other man and understand what he is trying to say and invoke your own jealousies and bad experiences of the past towards your opinions with out realising it. This is known recently as "failure to communicate" and ends up being " a cluster ----" or "snafu".
Nationality or "patriotism" has kept this world at odds against each other and until the human races realises this then there will be no true "utopia" where we all get along together and "respect" the views of others and the reasons they see differently than you do with out having to go to war to stress your point, which the common man has no choice but to follow the laws of his leaders or be considered a traitor in his own home land.
This medium has allowed us to talk to each other and try to understand each other in a different way than man has ever to do in many centuries. And has allowed each of us to meet others we would not have had the oppurtunity to do at any other time in human history. Unfortunaely we are still under the iron of our worldly leaders whom determine the direction each of us must follow.
Just some rambling of many years of service to a nation that has allowed my family to be free oppression and grow because my forefathers were allowed to become members of a republic with very different ideals compared to the rest of the world, it is this diversity that has allowed her to be what she is today, but has been forced by treachery of other nations into a position she has never wanted but with her inexperience of world affairs is trying her best to fight against mans inhumanity to man.
Oh great day forgot to add: With all this in mind until each of the European nations forget about the past who they were and what they were and and what was a part of of what, then I see no way that the EU will ever develop a working constitutional government. The leaders of these countries need to forget about the big dog, little dog mentallity and look at each other as equals in a common endeavor or otherwise it will never succeed or ever happen.
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Btw, as far as senate and house of representatives system goes:
Europe has commision - each country has a 1 commisioner with same weight in votes. 25 in all, just like 100 senators, 2 per each state.
Europian partlament should be compared to House of Representatives if anything.