Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FUNKED1 on February 03, 2004, 01:38:43 PM
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A 73-year-old St. Louis County, Missouri, man looked up from his television one night to see an armed man holding 4-inch shears to his wife’s throat. The intruder had broken into the couple’s basement through a window and tied a curtain around his face as a mask. The man grabbed the homeowner’s wife when she came downstairs and forced her into the living room where he demanded money from her husband. The homeowner managed to keep his wits about him and told the bandit that he needed to retrieve his wallet from the bedroom. He returned instead with a gun and, as his wife pulled away, shot her captor. The man was able to pull the woman outside with him, but finally succumbed to his wounds and collapsed. (St. Louis Post-Dispatch, St. Louis, Missouri, 11/20/03)
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Jeff Pantzer of Stuart, Florida, was awakened in the night by the sound of blinds rattling. Someone had broken in just five months previously, and Pantzer now kept a shotgun just in case. He took up his gun and fired as he saw a man’s legs enter his window, scaring the would-be burglar right out of his shoes. “My safety was my first consideration,” Pantzer said. “It was real quick, he was halfway in the window … I fired, and he exited the window at the same time … .” The suspect was not apprehended, but police say he may be linked to four similar burglaries in the area. (The News, Stuart, Florida, 11/27/03)
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Two armed men burst into a Coatesville, Pennsylvania, home and demanded money from the two occupants in the living room. One of the armed invaders went up to the master bedroom and threatened to shoot or beat the couple in bed if they didn’t hand over some money. The man in bed, identified as Omar Reid, grabbed a pistol from the nightstand drawer and shot the robber just as he shot at Reid. With one intruder down, Reid then raced down the stairs where he encountered the second man and they exchanged fire. The second home invader fled the scene. Reid was not injured during the gunfire. The wounded invader was taken to the hospital. (Daily Local News, Westchester, Pennsylvania, 11/07/03)
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When Judy Abram had her sisters over to play dominoes, a man walked up to the house and attempted to break through Abram’s living room window. She yelled at the man to leave, but he continued coming in the window. Abram then ran to her bedroom and returned with a pistol. She aimed it at the home invader saying, “Can’t you see I have a gun? Get out of here!” The intruder continued to advance on her so she fired at him, emptying her gun. Suffering from a gunshot wound to the chest, the home-invader then went to a neighbor’s house, where he crashed through the living room window and collapsed. He was pronounced dead at the scene. (San Antonio Express-News, San Antonio, Texas, 11/03/03)
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A Freeport, New York, woman has her boyfriend and his brother to thank for rescuing her from a rapist. First Squad Det. Lt. Andrew Fal of Nassau, New York, reported that the suspect was believed to have been hiding in the basement of the home for some time. When the woman’s boyfriend left for work, the intruder hid his face with a surgical mask and went upstairs. He attacked the woman in her bedroom, punching her repeatedly in the face, and then tried to rape her. The boyfriend’s brother, who also lives in the home, heard the commotion and thought his brother was having a fight with his girlfriend. He called the brother on his cell phone to see what was going on, and when his brother told him he was driving to work, the two realized the woman was in real trouble. The brother called the police and retrieved a 9mm pistol. The woman’s boyfriend returned to the house where he and his brother confronted her attacker, holding him at gunpoint until authorities arrived and placed her attacker under arrest. (Newsday, New York, New York, 11/22/03)
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A Madison County, Mississippi, woman shot and killed her attacker during a home invasion. The woman had answered her door late one evening when a man armed with a gun forced his way inside. “He physically assaulted her,” reported Madison County Sheriff Toby Trowbridge. The homeowner managed to pull her gun just as her attacker drew his. The home invader, shot in the abdomen, ran from the house and collapsed in the driveway, according to police reports. A suspected accomplice drove away in a car and has not been located. The homeowner was taken to the hospital suffering from a gunshot wound to her side, and was reported to be in stable condition. (Clarion-Ledger, Jackson, Mississippi, 12/02/03)
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A Salem, Massachusetts, resident learned what a great deterrent owning a gun can be. The resident called police, not to report being a victim of a crime, but to say that he discovered a man “all dressed in black” trying to break into his home. The resident aimed his gun at the would-be intruder, who decided to cut his losses and run. (The Salem News, Salem, Massachussetts, 11/28/03)
Studies indicate that firearms are used over two million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. Shooting usually can be justified only where crime constitutes an immediate, imminent threat to life, limb, or, in some cases, property. Anyone is free to quote or reproduce these accounts. Send clippings to: “The Armed Citizen,” 11250 Waples Mill Rd., Fairfax, VA 22030-9400.
http://www.nra.org
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Cool.
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Woah. That sucks. Who are these people?
And why does their aim suck? So few criminals pronounced dead. What a shame.
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Last week I was stoped at the red light at 48th and Arlington. Coming from the right I eard 6 bangs in a rapid succession. As I turned my head, a black teen went runing in front off my truck blindly shooting behind his back. I followed the guy with my head, quite amazed how he could look one direction and shoot the other... and miss my truck.
Then an another black teen poped out of nowhere, with a gun in his right hand. He stood a couple of yards from my truck, acting all exited waving his gun at the other guy (who was already out of sight) and shoot "whaz up, what u got niger".
Then he looked at me and smiled, I smiled back.
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Yesterday I wished I had my camera. At Vernon and Normandie, there is an anti-violence bilboard. Something like gun+crime=federal time. There are 4 guns drawn, each gun make a 'F", with the 4 sentences "no Future", "No Familly" ...
Below the billboard was a dead body and 7 police cars.
God I wished I had my camera.
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Doing a roof at Avalon and the 49th 5 months ago, my attention is drawn by tires skritches. I look to witness a car driving erratically in traffic. The thing finally jumps on the curb and stops. A BIG mexican guy walks away from the car, not really walking straight, and proceeds to the middle of the road.
He stoped the traffic. Cars accumulated and were honking at him. He stood defiant waving "what ... what ... what u gona do". Then he ripped his teeshirt appart and pulled a Uzi and shot some short burst on the top of the cars. The two fat chicks in the first car ran away like I would have not guaged possible.
The Mexican guy walked to a car, open the door and "kicked" the driver out. He sat at the wheel but couldn't find the keys (The driver kept them). So he jumped on the hood of the xar waving his gun.
Comes by a police car, that waved thru traffic and leave the scene.
From his hood, the mexican guy shot a few more bullets, then waved his gun around. Waving his gun, he droped it. The Uzi flew off in the street. Two guy in a black SUV ran to get the Uzi, went back in the SUV and took off.
The mexican guy leaves the hood of the car, and walks away. LAPD arrives, go runing after the guy. Shots are eard (didn't see from the roof), the guy was shot dead.
Some of the samples, of the eye witness of a normal citizen, with a normal life. I wish I had the gun so i could shoot at people with guns.:(
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SFRT - Frenchy
So, do you think any of these people commiting those acts were careful to follow all the appropriate gun laws of the state? I wonder if adding more laws on top of the ones that exist would help?
Just wondering, since the only one gun laws effect are the people who follow the laws and don't cause the problems anyway.
Always heartwarming to read "The Armed Citizen". I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but I also hope if I ever am in the situation to need to do so, I am not prevented from doing so.
dago
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I'm wondering why no one shot back...
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CPRA.......
"Society is Safer When Criminals Dont Know who is armed"
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HOUSTON- A child is in the hospital after a shooting at an elementary school this morning.
A fifth grader at Cynthia Youens Elementary School was taken to the hospital with an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound to the stomach.
School officials say that the student brought the gun from home. They say when he walked in this morning, he had the gun tucked into his pants.
Around 10:30 a.m., the student pulled the .380 automatic pistol out to show to another student, and when he was putting it back it accidentally discharged, hitting him in the groin.
"I'm very concerned that he would be able to get a gun, very. Yeah, that's very scary for him to bring a gun to school, and interact with my child, especially," said one concerned parent.
Parents are suggesting that metal detectors be put in the school
He was able to tell officers that he took the gun from his garage and brought it to school this morning.
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HARTFORD- On Monday, Ron Gonzales, 36, of Hanford, accepted a misdemeanor child endangerment plea offer and was sentenced shortly after. Gonzales is the father of the 12-year-old and 6-year-old brothers involved in the Dec. 30 shooting that wounded the younger boy in the chest, Kings County District Attorney officials reported.
Going into sentencing Monday, Gonzales faced a maximum penalty of one year in county jail, Chief Deputy DA Patrick Hart said. However, the father was sentenced to three years probation.
"The major term (of his probation) is that (Gonzales) will have to record some public service announcements that will be airing on local television" stations, Hart said. "Basically, they're a message from a father who's been in the middle of this type of tragedy and is trying to convey the seriousness of leaving guns where kids can get to them.
"We think the message coming from a father, who had his own child shot through his own negligence, is going to be a much stronger message than a message coming from me, the chief of police or other law enforcement sources," Hart said. Gonzales "can convey the grief he feels much more strongly than a member of law enforcement who, essentially, is looking at it from the outside."
The shooting occurred at approximately 8:30 a.m. Dec. 30 at the Gonzales residence located in the 1000 block of Jordan Way. Apparently, the 12-year-old "accidentally" fired a .22-caliber revolver at his 6-year-old brother, Hanford Police Department officials reported.
Hart said the boys retrieved the gun - which was unloaded - from under a cushion in a couch in the living room where Gonzales stored it. The handgun, which has a capacity to hold six rounds, only had one expended round when officers located it later.
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NORFOLK — An 8-year-old boy found a gun at a baby-sitter’s house and shot himself in the hand early today, according to a city police spokeswoman.
The child was brought to Children’s Hospital of the King’s Daughters for treatment after the 12:08 a.m. shooting, which happened in the 400 block of E. Little Creek Road, said Officer Valorie Massingill. No charges had been filed, and an investigation was underway, she said today.
The child’s wound was not life-threatening, she said.
The boy was being cared for at a neighbor’s house, she said. He poked around and found the weapon, and fired it, Massingill said.
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GREAT FALLS- A hunters' education instructor accidentally fired a gun inside the Four Seasons Arena Friday at the Montana Hunting and Fishing Outdoors Show.
People, including a woman and her child, were in the area, but no one was hurt.
Sheriff's Capt. Dan Smrdel said the man, who was helping run the Fish, Wildlife and Parks booth, was checking a weapon and clearing it when the gun discharged into the floor. The bullet ricocheted and hit a wall.
"They were very lucky no one was struck," Smrdel said Monday.
The shot was fired around 6 p.m., an hour after the show opened. Sheriff's deputies investigated, turning the case over to the county attorney's office to decide if any charges would be filed.
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RIDLEY TOWNSHIP - The man charged with the accidental fatal shooting of his younger brother plans to enter a guilty plea next week, his attorney said Monday.
Patrick Sharkey, 20, of the 1300 block of Constitution Avenue in the township’s Woodlyn section, waived his preliminary hearing Monday before District Justice Vincent Gallagher.
Sharkey is charged with the Nov. 26 shooting of his 12-year-old brother, James "J.J" Sharkey, in the family’s home.
Police say Sharkey was in a bedroom watching TV with his younger brother and several other people at about 9:50 p.m. when a .22-caliber revolver the older Sharkey was handling discharged. The bullet struck "J.J." in the head.
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SPRINGFIELD- An 11-year-old Springfield girl was accidentally shot and killed Saturday by her 15-year-old cousin while he was unloading a .270-caliber deer rifle, according to Webster County Sheriff Ron Worsham.
The girl, Madeline Cara Webb, died at about 4 p.m. Saturday afternoon at her uncle's home northeast of Rogersville.
"Basically, she died instantly," Worsham said.
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Tragic. I see these accounts not as an argument for more gun laws/bans, but an argument in favor of gun safety and education. Maybe if more people were tought to respect and safely handle firearms we wouldn't see as many of these ugly incidents.
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RPM
Guns are not the problem in any of the things you posted. Stupid owners are.
Every case above could have been prevented by proper storage or training
Stupid people will find stupid ways to hurt themselves.
How many babied babies die in bathtubs? How many people die from no seatbelts?
People can be dumb, you can't save them from that. Nor should you try by taking away my freedom
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RPM those are sad stories that really highlight the need for firearms safety education. Why don't you help out and send a donation to the NRA or another group that promotes and teaches firearms safety?
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GTO, I am actually a gun owner and agree 100% that the owners were at fault. Stupid people should not be allowed to own them. Just wanted to post a reply to the NRA rhetoric.
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RPM
I agree dumb people and guns are not a good combo.
The problem is how do you make laws that stop stupid people from getting them? Not to mention, some ACLU type will get their panties in a knot over descriminating agaist morons! :D
Another problem is, most anti gun people are making the laws with the goal of making gun purchases so hard no one can do it. I do not trust those people to make laws that are fair. Hell some of the gun laws in cali are so ****ing dumb they make me sick.
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As badly as I hate to say this, I think the Gun Show law should be passed. It would close a lot of loopholes. I don't have any figures to back this up, but I would venture a guess that most guns used in crimes are not bought at traditional Gun Shops, they are bought on the street.
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Wow, I read this stuff and it makes me realize how lucky I am to not live in the USA. Honestly guys, its scares me what you post.
I think the whole gun-law debate you guys have is academic now, you've gone so far done the road you'll never back out of it.
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LoL
Vulcan
I do not worry about guns or gun crime.
Hell a woman and her doughter where beaten to death with a tree branch two blocks from my home.
Guns are not the problem.
I am glad I have the freedom to own them though.
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Yeah, but if it had been a REGISTERED tree branch, they'd probably have the perps by now. Heck, they might not even have been allowed to carry any wood if they had priors.
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When tree braches are outlawed, only outlaws will have tree branches!!
People dont kill people, tree branches do!!
I'll give up my tree branch when they pry it from my cold dead hands!!
Maybe we should just strongly enforce the laws we have and use the death penalty for murderers?
dago
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firearms are dangerous... cars are dangerous... power tools are dangerous... accidents happen. If a thing did not present some danger to society then there would be no point in protecting the rights of people to own and use it. You simply can't ban everything that may be dangerous or can cause injury or death if missused. The good must be weighed with the bad. Guns prevent crime, tyranny and make people less vulnerable to those who would harm them.... they protect those who are least likely able to protect themselves like the old and weak and females.
there is also the matter of personal freedom... who really need to swim? banning it would save thousands of lives.... who needs a personal chainsaw? Who needs to climb rocks and what about the danger to the rescuers? the list is endless.
What do you guys mean by gunshow sales? You have to fill out the same paperwork at gunshows and the same waiting period as anywere else... the guy who sells it to you has to be a licenced dealer.
lazs
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Originally posted by rpm371
As badly as I hate to say this, I think the Gun Show law should be passed. It would close a lot of loopholes. I don't have any figures to back this up, but I would venture a guess that most guns used in crimes are not bought at traditional Gun Shops, they are bought on the street.
2001 crime stats show that only 1% of guns used in crimes were bought at gun shows. Guns shows are still subject to Federal gun laws. There is no loophole.
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Originally posted by lazs2
What do you guys mean by gunshow sales? You have to fill out the same paperwork at gunshows and the same waiting period as anywere else... the guy who sells it to you has to be a licenced dealer.
Laz, you apparently never have been to a Gun Show. There are more guns sold and traded on the floor and in the parking lot than those sold by the Licensed Firearm dealers.
You want to buy some illegal ammo? Just about any kind of tricked out ammo from armour piercing to piano wire loaded 12ga slugs can be found. Kits to convert semi auto to full auto are sold openly at booths while guys standing near by are selling Tek 9's.
I believe in Gun Owners Rights, but these are not just trade shows for the weekend hunter. Do I think closing Gun Shows will be the cure all for illegal weapons? Not by a long shot.
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Why is it that the board is spammed monthly with copy-paste sections from the Armed Moron, trying to make a point or something?
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rpm371
We have a law in Cali that makes it so you have to do the 10 day waite for any guns bought at a show. It is not a nation wide law.
You do not sell guns in the parking lot. There are police oficers everywhere and they would be unhappy with you. I would have no problems with this law being nation wide.
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Thud
People in the US, and many on this forum like to hear about armed citizens saving themselves with firearms. You can not depend on the regular news to report these.
You do not like it don't read it.
P.S. being from the nether regions, you have no say in US law so keep your opinions to yourself. I and I bet most gun people on this board are tired of euro bananas telling us how bad we are cause we have the freedom to own guns.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Thud
People in the US, and many on this forum like to hear about armed citizens saving themselves with firearms. You can not depend on the regular news to report these.
Sure, the biased perverted leftist liberal media etc..... :lol
P.S. being from the nether regions, you have no say in US law so keep your opinions to yourself. I and I bet most gun people on this board are tired of euro bananas telling us how bad we are cause we have the freedom to own guns.
Sure, we just jealous of you gun folk'. We criticize and patronize you all the time but deep in our hearts we want every moron on every streetcorner to have a gun at the ready too. Maybe one day we'll have a proper constitution too and our children will finally be able to blow their brains out when they break open the gun cabinet or are busy cleaning their first revolver their loving dad gave them. Sure...
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Originally posted by Thud
Why is it that the board is spammed monthly with copy-paste sections from the Armed Moron,
"A 73-year-old St. Louis County, Missouri, man looked up from his television one night to see an armed man holding 4-inch shears to his wife’s throat"
What a moron; why would he try to to protech his wife???
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Originally posted by Toad
"A 73-year-old St. Louis County, Missouri, man looked up from his television one night to see an armed man holding 4-inch shears to his wife’s throat"
Would that be the 'armed citizen' the title of your little magazine is referring to?
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Yeah maybe you Euromorons will get smart but I doubt it.
You don't like our gun laws or the people who own guns, that's your right, I think, maybe, or whatever you gov says. We could care less what you think. No go away... Sadly I am sure there is a bit of truth to your sarcasm.
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Originally posted by Thud
Why is it that the board is spammed monthly with copy-paste sections from the Armed Moron, trying to make a point or something?
Public education. The media suppresses these stories in favor of things like Columbine or postal workers. We need to get the truth out there.
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Originally posted by Thud
Would that be the 'armed citizen' the title of your little magazine is referring to?
No.
In all probability, it would be the "armed felon" with a bunch of priors.
Or "armed criminal" if you prefer.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Guns prevent crime, tyranny and make people less vulnerable to those who would harm them.... they protect those who are least likely able to protect themselves like the old and weak and females.
LOL you can't be serious. We don't have gun ownership in NZ, yet NZ is a paradise compared to the crime I read about here (from the US).
I know you guys can't dig yourselves out of the hole you've dug. So I'm not really 'arguing' that the US should change. I just feel sorry for you guys. The way you talk about guns is _scarey_ to some us. Especially when people like lazs have to grasp at arguments like this to justify gun ownership.
Lazs you point should be : "guns are so readily accessible to all levels of society there is no going back for the US".
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Originally posted by Vulcan
LOL you can't be serious. We don't have gun ownership in NZ, yet NZ is a paradise compared to the crime I read about here (from the US).
You say that as if there are no other diferrences between NZ & US which could account for that.
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Jeff Pantzer of Stuart, Florida, was awakened in the night by the sound of blinds rattling. Someone had broken in just five months previously, and Pantzer now kept a shotgun just in case. He took up his gun and fired as he saw a man’s legs enter his window, scaring the would-be burglar right out of his shoes. “My safety was my first consideration,” Pantzer said. “It was real quick, he was halfway in the window … I fired, and he exited the window at the same time … .” The suspect was not apprehended, but police say he may be linked to four similar burglaries in the area. (The News, Stuart, Florida, 11/27/03)
oh no...someone didnt shoot to kill...this is HORRIBLE ;)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
LOL you can't be serious. We don't have gun ownership in NZ, yet NZ is a paradise compared to the crime I read about here (from the US).
I'm assuming you don't mean that NZ doesn't have any gun ownership.
Otherwise, why would the NZ Council of Licensed Firearms owners say that there are 235,000 there? http://www.colfo.org.nz/
Around 225,000 New Zealanders have firearms licences and a recent Government inquiry estimates that New Zealand civilians hold between 700,000 and 1,000,000 firearms.
Nearly half a million responsible New Zealanders used firearms in the year to Dec 1996. They safely fired around 15 million cartridges.
Each year around 5,500 New Zealanders apply to the Police for firearms licences. Almost all applicants list hunting or pest destruction as the reason for their application.
Or the Sporting Shooters Assoc. Of New Zealand?
http://www.ssanz.org.nz/index.html
Face it, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get one. This is exactly what Australia and the UK have found out. The number of law-abiding gun owners do not impact this. And this is the problem with gun control laws. They do not accomplish what they set out to do.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You say that as if there are no other diferrences between NZ & US which could account for that.
Oh we have poverty, crime, gangs, drug problems and all that crap too. I just think peoples expectations are different, it seems like death or extreme violence are considering the 'norm' for crime in the US (ie mug someone and kill them). Whereas here most robberies, rapes etc do not end in a murder.
I'm sure if you suddenly swamped the market in NZ with readily available firearms the end result would be a huge increase in violent crime and deaths within a short time frame.
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Vulcan
What crime can sheep commit? Can they even use guns?
:D
Seriusly though, I do not know a single person who fears getting shot or robed. I don't and I own guns for the fun of shooting them. I have felt it was nice to have them in a few cases, but that was rare.
The news media and this board make things seem worse then they are.
You are also right that we have gone to far to go back, at best at this point would be banning guns and then ONLY criminals have them. That scares the **** out of me. I would rather have a gun and never need it or even have a gun and need it then, not have one and have to face a now much braver armed criminal.
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I go to a lot of gunshows.
I've only ever seen a few Private Citizen to Citizen sales. And all but one were hunting rifles / shotguns (the last was a beat up m1a).
However, note that any class 3 weapon changing hands requires forms. Even if it's a private sale.
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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security are deserving of neither." Ben Franklin, 1700 something.
Paraphrased I am sure.
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Originally posted by Dune
I'm assuming you don't mean that NZ doesn't have any gun ownership.
Otherwise, why would the NZ Council of Licensed Firearms owners say that there are 235,000 there? http://www.colfo.org.nz/
Face it, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get one. This is exactly what Australia and the UK have found out. The number of law-abiding gun owners do not impact this. And this is the problem with gun control laws. They do not accomplish what they set out to do.
Sorry, I mean't gun ownership in US terms (which seems to be a free for all). Getting a firearms license in NZ is quite a lot of work. You have to pass a safety theory exam, get a background check, get two referees of good standing, cops also check you have suitable storage facilities for firearms etc.
1 million firearms in NZ my ass! Maybe if you counted air-rifles (and soft air guns LOL).
If a criminal wants a firearm, yes he will get one? Maybe not, because of the much smaller commerical market the avenues to obtain a firearm (and ammo) are a lot harder. For example, say a teenager in the US wants to get a gun, its likely the will succeed very easily. Whereas in NZ it would be extremely hard. Whereas an experienced criminal who has the right connections might be able too.
Licensing lessons the commercial market. A smaller commercial market means relatively less unaccounted for firearms. Which makes them that much harder to source illicitly.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I go to a lot of gunshows.
I've only ever seen a few Private Citizen to Citizen sales. And all but one were hunting rifles / shotguns (the last was a beat up m1a).
However, note that any class 3 weapon changing hands requires forms. Even if it's a private sale.
This has been my experience also. Just last year a friend of mine bought a Glock at the Phoenix gun show. And we got to sit around while they ran his info through the computer before the sale went final. There is no loophole.
Besides, you think that if some individual is going to sell a large quantity of firearms to another person, someone he either knows nothing about or knows is involved in illegal activities, he's going to do it at a gunshow? Where lots of people can see him?
Silly. Just silly.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
1 million firearms in NZ my ass! Maybe if you counted air-rifles (and soft air guns LOL).
Don't argue with me. It is a website quoting figures from your own gov't. Maybe you're not as safe as you think you are?
:eek:
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Whereas here most robberies, rapes etc do not end in a murder.
That's how it is in the states too. I think you watch too much TV. :)
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vulcan... you are being silly... rape and robbery are considered crimes that we would like to defend against even if the rapist/robber were to say thank you afterwards. I am not about to try to decide what it going on in his head.
NZ is not the states. What country borders NZ? bunch of whitebread boys stuck on a small island ain't gonna cause much trouble now are they?
if you could make all the guns dissapear in the U.S. you would have much more crime...
What makes any of you believe that by disarming the weak and telling the strong that they are in no danger when they commit crimes that you will make things better or safer??
lazs
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rpm... I may have been to more gun shows than you... I went to em when you could legally just buy the gun and walk out with it... I see no more problem with this than a criminal asking his drug dealer for a dime bag and "oh.. by the way... one of them black guns that I can hold sideways to shoot too"
I don't see your point... if gun shows are selling guns leagaly then what law will stop the criminals from selling guns illegaly in the parking lot and.... why is that worse than an alley or a bar?
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
RPM
Guns are not the problem in any of the things you posted. Stupid owners are.
Every case above could have been prevented by proper storage or training
Stupid people will find stupid ways to hurt themselves.
How many babied babies die in bathtubs? How many people die from no seatbelts?
People can be dumb, you can't save them from that. Nor should you try by taking away my freedom
Gto...maybe you should call Leslie stupid...to his face.
Oppps... (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108042)
Accidents happen...even with guns...and people trained to use them.
This isn't in any way an arguemnt to ban guns in the US...like Vulcan I feel I have no right to do so. But do not suggest that someone is stupid because an accident happened.
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Curv
I know accidents can happen and you do not have to be stupid to be involved. What I was saying is, that is the specific cases listed above, either better training or a smarter owner could have stopped the accident. Stupid people can make for some very stupid accidents.
There is no excuse but stupidity for letting a kid find your gun and shoot a sibling. Same for killing someone when you unload a gun, that was both amazingly stupid, and bad training. I was taught you never point a gun at anyone at any time unless you plan to kill them. That includes when you unloading your gun or when it is unloaded.
As for Leslie, his is a true accident, it would have been nice if his gun where safe to drop, most are, but most .25s are cheap **** and he got unlucky, and then lucky again when it did not hurt him or someone else badly. That is far different then some tool unloading a rifle and killing someone. I can not even imagine how that could have happened.
You are far more likely to be killed on your scooter, by some driver not watching what he is doing then I am to be killed by a firearm in an accident. (well maybe, if you where in the US I would say for sure) Hell I am far more likely to be killed in an auto accident by some stupid kid in a Honda.
That said I do not think it is a bad idea to make sure the person buying a gun knows what the hell he is doing before he takes possession of it.
Hell, the many times I have taken non shooters shooting, I make them listen to me, and learn all the safety features of the guns they will be shooting, basic gun safety and then for the most part I do not shoot, because I am watching everyone of them like a hawk.
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Dune: "Face it, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get one. This is exactly what Australia and the UK have found out. The number of law-abiding gun owners do not impact this. And this is the problem with gun control laws. They do not accomplish what they set out to do.
On a point of information, the UK hand-gun ban was prompted by an incident involving a legally held weapon (Dunblane killings). You might rightly think the ban was a knee-jerk reaction but given that there have been no such incidents since the ban it's entirely possible to view the change in the law as having acheived it's aim.
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momus.... how many dunbane incidents per decade did you have before you were saved from yourself's?
lazs
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1 per decade over the '80s and '90s i.e. the Hungerford and Dunblane incidents? Maybe other less notable ones that I don't recall.
I expect you missed the part of my post where I suggested Dune would be right to view the '96 ban as a knee jerk reaction, even though so far it has served its purpose in eliminating incidents involving *legally* held weapons?
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not familiar with the hugerford incident/massacare in australia.. enlighten me.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
not familiar with the hugerford incident/massacare in australia.. enlighten me.
lazs
Hungerford incident was in the UK in the mid '80s. A man called Michael Ryan went postal with an AK47 and a selection of pistols.
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soo.... it wasn't even in australia? what you are saying is that there was only one incident per.... per what? in australia and for that they took away peoples right to defend themselves?
knee jerk is hardly an adequate term for such behavior.. so... it is safe to say that both incidents were feak and might never have happened again regardless of any laws that were or could be put into effect?
lazs
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I can't speak for the Aussies being an englishman, but basically, yes, it was a political over-reaction.