Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Zippatuh on February 04, 2004, 09:50:05 AM
-
Well the hammer drops. For anyone who is in the telecommunications industry is certainly familiar with the new push for outsourcing IT and operators. This morning they pulled the trigger on it.
IBM will now be doing all the prototyping, concept development, and testing for all PCS call centers. One long distance call center will be affected. Local is being left alone at the moment, probably because of the union implications. What this means to Sprint is a supposed savings of 2.5 billion over then next 5 years. What this means to IBM is an increased and broadened market.
IBM does back office work well and will now be doing front office work. Although they do not have a telephony lab it appears they will be making a big push to build one with the assistance of the group I currently work for. In exchange IBM will be moving some of their telephony business to Sprint and providing their equipment to Sprint at a greatly reduced price.
So, if you have some extra cash, buying IBM stock might not be a bad idea. If you currently work as an operator, I’d start looking at other career opportunities. It has nothing to do with working for Sprint or not. If you answer a phone in a customer service roll anywhere in the US, your job is leaving. It’s just a matter of time.
As for my job, they’ll probably keep me around just long enough to build their test lab. Then I’ll probably be thanked and then asked for my card key.
Oh, and I don’t have any extra cash for IBM stock. I’m sure the Sprint executives do though.
Start brushing up on your ability to communicate with someone who’s English is a second language. In a handful of years, that’s all you’re going to be talking to.
-
IBM is by far the best employer I've ever had. The working conditions are great, the pay is great, the environment is stimulating.
And now they're going to be sending our jobs overseas to India and Asia. In fact, the local joke around here now is to call IBM "India Business Machines".
The only hope is that this becomes a big issue in the 2004 elections, big enough where it raises the awareness of the American public.
Even though I work in software development/testing, and not support.....who's to say that our jobs won't be sent overseas, too?
But please, by all means, keep buying IBM stock. :)
-
Most interesting Zipputah. I "work" in the telecom industry and I'm seeing old fashioned domestic operator services (411 and 555-1212 stuff) being set up to get routed overseas. Very soon now too (Phillipines for one) your call asking for the tele # for your local Papa Ginos may be answered in Manila.
I wonder if the US will be going full circle back towards being an agrarian society? Meaning the US has fallen from being an industrialised manufacturing giant down to a service industry. But even now that's changing and I wonder what's next.
(thanks Dowding :) I know I should proof read before hitting the [enter] key a lot more than I do)
-
"EManing"
A god awful term. Which bastard invented that one?
-
banana, all the research that I’ve done and seen about IBM’s involvement in outsourcing is exactly that. Increase in pay and benefits, for about a year. Just long enough to teach someone else your job then see ya. Oh, and only being an employee for one year doesn’t give much of a severance package.
I just left a “software engineer” position that was code control and environment builds for test and development. They were starting talks with IBM and began to transition some people so I hit the door to get back on the hardware just to find that it’s followed me here as well. IT outsourcing is going to happen. We had experience with this during the Y2K debacle. Everything we got back from them had to be coded again to work properly.
It needs to be an issue in 2004 but unfortunately I don’t think it has reached the right people yet. Once a larger portion of the 40-75K work force gets affected, other than just being laid off, it might get a bigger voice. The writings on the wall but I don’t think people are wearing their glasses.
Westy, you couldn’t be more correct. Hell even as a service industry we’re still “outsourcing”. With the new legislation that Bush signed in for illegal aliens to gain legal work in the US is an excellent example. We as a society don’t want to clean, flip burgers, garden, factory work, or anything else that isn’t “good enough” for us.
It appears to me that we as a technological country, the people who are running it anyway, are being extremely short sided. In fact to me it appears that they have finally found a way to secure management’s employment and income by removing the employees from the business.
Even though it was a typo, Emaning will probably be the next buzz word, take credit ;). It will be like “out of the box” and “closure”.
Personally, I think it will end up costing twice as much. In the end they’ll have to put control back in our hands for anything to be done quickly and accurately. I am working with a vendor who resells from another vendor. Now, I’ll have to talk to a vendor, IBM, who will talk to the other vendor, Viecore, who will then have to talk to another vendor, Edify. Yup, the product is going to work a lot better with the more middle men you put in place. :rolleyes:
-
I really did think it was some more management bull****.
"E-manning - the de-manning of domestic E-commerce jobs through overseas recruitment."
lol :D
-
(http://www.nflhelmetstore.com/mich.jpg)
Wooot!
-
Local IBM here just announced that they were letting their Billing/Collections department go. The local IBM offices are all focused on content hosting services and such, so the billing function is most likely going to be transferred to another site to centralize the function for multiple IBM facilities. They still employ about 1,500 people here but that's still about 1/4 of what they had four or five years ago.
I read some time ago that Bush was looking at a measure that would mean that companies working on federal projects had to keep ops inside the US borders. I think the loophole was that the "substantial portion" had to be kept in US. Whether call centers qualify as "substantial" to the contract work was sort of nebulous.
-
(just a rant)
I'm wondering if these companys realize that the jobs that they are going to eventually outsource their customers as well.
Just a thaought I had. If americans arent working doesnt the economy go into the crapper?
If the economy is in the crapper dont stock prices and revenues fall?
If they have lost revenue does that make up for the price in the cost savings of letting some kamasutra guru answer their phones?
Are these valid questions at all????? I just think that companies like wallmart that have tremendous buying power with their overseas suppliers outsell their own customer base out of work.
Scenerio: wallmart cuts prices on polo shirts. Competetive american plant can no longer make a profit. Plant closes 10,000 people are out of work. Since 10,000 low to middle income people no longer have paychecks they no longer shop like they used to at the place they get the greatest savings at....wall mart
Has anyone ever modled this as a theory or am I way off the mark here?
-
What we’ve been told is that anything that has government data cannot be sent off shore. The first big push we had was to move some mainframe applications over but there was a government contract involved which killed the project.
I’m not sure what can be considered “government data” though. A handful of states welfare services are already being done oversees. Of course that’s personal data that the government is using, not their own.
We seem to be so worried about terrorist attacks yet we’re getting ready to open DS3’s from foreign, impoverished countries, directly into our business networks. Of course, as an ex director I had once said, seriously, in an all hands meeting, “don’t worry, the internet is secure and near impossible to pull pertinent information off of”. Yeah, I had to laugh; I guess she never heard of a sniffer before.
Hell, in this case, we’re talking about paving the highway, giving them a road map, and a brand new sports car to do with how they see fit.
-
Nice scenario and no I’ve never heard anyone model that before.
As for revenue…
A good example is the dot com bubble. Marketing and sales pukes told the techies, “don’t worry about making a profit. You actually want to loose money. Get your name out and advertise and the money will come later.”
These are the same yahoo’s that are still running things. They’ve just moved onto another band wagon.
I’m all for greed and capitalism. If it wasn’t for greed there are a lot of neat toys we wouldn’t have but we were at least producing something. Now the focus is on not producing anything and increasing revenue at the same time.
It’s just another bubble that’s going to bust. I think the only question is how long and how bad the bust will be.
-
The basic business attitude is to look out for the business and let the labor force settle their own employment problems.
-
Yeah. It's these same yahoo’s that have "golden parachutes" waiting for when thier turn comes around. Driven by self serving interests IMO they are more concerned with furthering thier own financial value via any means possible and at any cost.
But while they're Americans too these folks in charge are also of the "ME" generation. They honestly don't give two hoots about the average Jane and John Americanworker for these yahoos will make far more in a year than either Jane or John will in a lifetime. These yahoos willl be fine no matter what happens, with very few exeptions.
-
Lets face it, as long as companies in Europe and America can employ Indians for a fraction of the cost of their local equivalent outsourcing is going to happen. What will happen is that Indian wages will rise and ours will fall until a balance is reached. What that means for us is that we will have to accept a lower standard of living. Of course you can argue that lower production costs lead to lower prices but I've never really seen this happen: some cost reductions are are passed on but most are kept as profit (e.g. do your Nike shoes cost anyless now in real terms than they did 20 years ago?). Of course to make up the difference in income these companies can now start selling more of their products and services to the newer enriched markets in India.
One wonders when they will start outsourcing management functions? Surely Indian CEOs are cheaper to employ than US CEOs?
-
Originally posted by Zippatuh
What we’ve been told is that anything that has government data cannot be sent off shore.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107068&referrerid=3203
Sorry to hear about your future Zipp, but after meeting you in person, I have no doubt you'll find work. You're pretty motivated.
-
Originally posted by banana
IBM is by far the best employer I've ever had. The working conditions are great, the pay is great, the environment is stimulating.
Outsourcing is getting weirder and weirder.
I am an HP employee who is building IBM servers for a customer that we are providing other services for.
Welcome to the new IT :)
btw banana, as an HP employee I must say.
IBM sucks !
I had to say that, its in the employee handbook... sorry :)
-
Looks like my Network Mgmt degree is going to be completely useless when I get it.
-SW
-
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Looks like my Network Mgmt degree is going to be completely useless when I get it.
-SW
Its not as easy to outsource a hands on positions. I wouldnt be too woried about it.
-
I work on the hardware and next to network so if I get walked out the door it will be several years from now. I can see the projects that I’m working on though making me obsolete when it’s complete.
It has to maintenanced so chances are, in the end of it all, I’ll land somewhere.
SW – your in management, those jobs aren’t being outsourced ;).
-
One wonders if a company can avoid the US completly by outsourcing their customers as well?????
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
One wonders if a company can avoid the US completly by outsourcing their customers as well?????
Those same customers that go to the competition because their prices are cheaper because they have lowered their cost structure?
Yeah, those are the same customers.
You buy from Walmart because of their prices and then, while in the check out aisle, complain about jobs being lost to overseas manufacturers.
-
One wonders if a company can avoid the US completly by outsourcing their customers as well?????
I think one concept is that any losses in the US customer base will be made up by the newly affluent (by third world standards) in areas like India, etc. So, with their Taco Bell cashier level salaries these new programmers etc. will be able to by more corporate products, which, of course, will be made in Mexico.
All we're doing, IMO, is helping teach the developing world how to challeng our existing long term marketplace advantages in exchange for short term profits for top shareholders, CEOs and the politicians they buy. As this excellent Wired article states in relation from our shift from manufacturing to service and knowledge/innovation: "Once you give away knowledge, what's left?"
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india.html
Charon
-
Huh lol,
You guys are really talking about offshoring. That is what is going to fk us.
IBM has been and is in the process of ramping up its offshoring to india. Do you think the cost of IBM bs is going to go down. No potato peeling way. Do you think the salaries of Top mngment are going to go up You bet your prettythang.
The potato peeling corporapetions are selling out the USA to line their pockets and it is going to bite America in the prettythang.
The worst part is once China gets involved to full scale forget about India. China will do to india what India is doing to US.
The Dems were talking about this in the last debate and want to remove any tax benifits that may come from offshoring and add tax breaks to companies that keep the work here.
All I can say is, you poor bastards in CS programs now are not going to have to much to look foreward to when you graduate.
If you dont agree just ask all the workers that lost their jobs to NAFTA.
-
Originally posted by Stringer
Those same customers that go to the competition because their prices are cheaper because they have lowered their cost structure?
Yeah, those are the same customers.
You buy from Walmart because of their prices and then, while in the check out aisle, complain about jobs being lost to overseas manufacturers.
FYI My wife shops at Wall-mart not me. I allow this in order to not have to do or attend shopping time. Myself I only shop when the family requirs somthing at: lowes, home depot, autozon/pepboys. I'm sure these companys are not different or just slightly less evil than the great wall-mart.
-
Great Wired article (tho long)
You can't export creativity tho
As a ech support guy here, I get a lot of surprised customers who get to speak to someone that knows the product, speaks english well, and is an American. Over the past few months, that seems to be the first question we get...are you in the USA? People seem to be asking
-
Originally posted by Krusher
Outsourcing is getting weirder and weirder.
I am an HP employee who is building IBM servers for a customer that we are providing other services for.
Welcome to the new IT :)
btw banana, as an HP employee I must say.
IBM sucks !
I had to say that, its in the employee handbook... sorry :)
As an IBMer I am contractually obliged to say HP sucks. As it happens it's true;) Why else would you be building IBM servers?
We just can't build enough of the things here in Dublin. Every end of quarter the sky darkens with squadrons of Russian Antonov 12 cargo planes full of IBM servers going all over the world. Business is booming and IBM is doing very well indeed. So buying shares is a good idea.
On the other hand unlike banana I find that working for IBM sucks. To be fair it's only the part I actually work for that sucks. The people who build the servers think it's great. Just been told my variable pay rate this year. 2.2 % for a 2 rating. No typo, 2 point 2 per cent. That I could stomach if it was good to work here but the place is run by people for whom the name 'banana' is is appropriate. The server people got I think 9%. I work for the wrong IBM obviously. I can't afford to buy IBM shares with my lousy so called bonus. Time for a transfer.
As for outsourcing, well technically the Dublin plant could have been called outsourcing but in fact it was more of an expansion. I can see us been outsourced eventually. They moved here for a technically literate workforce and lower by US standards, pay. Guess where they have a literate English speaking low paid these days? Yes India.
That's the way it is these days. Competition makes it neccessary.
-
Originally posted by Krusher
Outsourcing is getting weirder and weirder.
I am an HP employee who is building IBM servers for a customer that we are providing other services for.
Welcome to the new IT :)
btw banana, as an HP employee I must say.
IBM sucks !
I had to say that, its in the employee handbook... sorry :)
As an IBMer I am contractually obliged to say HP sucks. As it happens it's true;) Why else would you be building IBM servers?
We just can't build enough of the things here in Dublin. Every end of quarter the sky darkens with squadrons of Russian Antonov 12 cargo planes full of IBM servers going all over the world. Business is booming and IBM is doing very well indeed. So buying shares is a good idea.
On the other hand unlike banana I find that working for IBM sucks. To be fair it's only the part I actually work for that sucks. The people who build the servers think it's great. Just been told my variable pay rate this year. 2.2 % for a 2 rating. No typo, 2 point 2 per cent. That I could stomach if it was good to work here but the place is run by people for whom the name 'banana' is is appropriate. The server people got I think 9%. I work for the wrong IBM obviously. I can't afford to buy IBM shares with my lousy so called bonus. Time for a transfer.
As for outsourcing, well technically the Dublin plant could have been called outsourcing but in fact it was more of an expansion. I can see us been outsourced eventually. They moved here for a technically literate workforce and lower by US standards, pay. Guess where they have a literate English speaking low paid these days? Yes India.
That's the way it is these days. Competition makes it neccessary.