Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: dedalos on February 04, 2004, 09:53:49 AM
-
So far I've been a Spit and LA dweeb. I am trying to figure out how to be an alt monkey and fly the 51. Any sudgestions on how to use the plane best? For example how do you fight a spit, what is the best convergence to use, how to keep it fast etc.
Thanks in advance.
-
Alrighty...
I tend to fly the P-51 differently then others, i will Turn fight P-38's , P47's any Navy Plane, any LW.. etc Without the fear of death, if you know how to use the flaps right.
The only planes that i will actually use my head against are indeed Spits, zekes, Nikis.. These require draining their E and ultimatly killin em. Best method is for a double immelman on the merge against these planes, if your same alt. If you have more alt on em, BnZ'em. Keeping your speed up means, dont pull any sudden moves, try to be gentle on the stick.
I will fly the P-51 at around 10k, enough Alt to run off if i get in a crappy situation, and enough alt to manuvar the plane if i approach any cons that want to fight.
IMO best way to fly a P-51 if you get in a bad situation, lets say if your fighting a Spit and he's close to getting on your 6. Stall fighting, kick in the flaps, 2-3 notches, if you go full flaps you will stall the plane out and crash.
My convergence is set to 250-300-350 from the - Inside to Outside- Guns.
Anymore questions.. Just ask.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
So far I've been a Spit and LA dweeb. I am trying to figure out how to be an alt monkey and fly the 51. Any sudgestions on how to use the plane best? For example how do you fight a spit, what is the best convergence to use, how to keep it fast etc.
Thanks in advance.
Take advantage of the P-51's superior speed when engaging Spitfires. You should always be able to dictate the fight so long as you start with a speed or alt advantage. By that I mean you can either attack or extend as you choose. Trick is to not panic and start turning if you don't get the guy initially. He's gonna be able to outturn you--which is the Spit's strength--so don't go there! Start turning a Pony with a Spit and unless the Spit driver's a total newb you're prolly gonna end up dead within the next few turns.
I fly the P-51 a lot and always try to keep any Spit in the area at arm's length. If you find yourself under a Spit try and extend in the direction of friendlies. Pay no attention to those that call you a runner as its just silliness to "stay and fight" with a Spit that's over you. Its generally going to be a losing proposition. The proper strategy is to use your plane's speed to gain--or re-gain if you've lost it--an advantage of height or distance before engaging.
As to keeping the Pony fast be mindful of your altitude. Dive in on the attack--never climb to the attack. If the shot's there take it--if its not don't force it. This is especially true if your target breaks downward. Never follow. Instead loop back up and keep going in the verticle until your speed drops to around 200 or less. Then make another attack.
Gotta run. Lunchtime's over.
Drano
-
I've logged a boatload in the Pony....WT has it right.
Often, when a pony turns with another plane, they don't really expect it...this can work to your advantage as well.
E management baby...that's what it's all about...unfortunetly, it takes a long time to become seriously proficient in this plane.
Now you can fly it like Beetle and never take a risk or just sneek up on folks, but, the real fun in this plane is in the weeds with the furballers:)
Have fun and listen to WT, Shane, Manx, Nomak and Fester....all can make a pony sing....I've lost my touch:)
BTW....go to the DA with these guys....nothin beats walkin in the right shoes...you'll learn alot there versus the cheap talk.
-
Originally posted by WldThing
Alrighty...
I tend to fly the P-51 differently then others, i will Turn fight P-38's , P47's any Navy Plane, any LW.. etc Without the fear of death, if you know how to use the flaps right.
The only planes that i will actually use my head against are indeed Spits, zekes, Nikis.. These require draining their E and ultimatly killin em. Best method is for a double immelman on the merge against these planes, if your same alt. If you have more alt on em, BnZ'em. Keeping your speed up means, dont pull any sudden moves, try to be gentle on the stick.
I will fly the P-51 at around 10k, enough Alt to run off if i get in a crappy situation, and enough alt to manuvar the plane if i approach any cons that want to fight.
IMO best way to fly a P-51 if you get in a bad situation, lets say if your fighting a Spit and he's close to getting on your 6. Stall fighting, kick in the flaps, 2-3 notches, if you go full flaps you will stall the plane out and crash.
My convergence is set to 250-300-350 from the - Inside to Outside- Guns.
Anymore questions.. Just ask.
Thanks, I never seem to have enough e to do a double immelman. In any case, isn't a spit/Nik better at that?
Thanks again
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Thanks, I never seem to have enough e to do a double immelman. In any case, isn't a spit/Nik better at that?
Thanks again
Spit and Niki can roll on top faster than you, therefore giving them a quick shot, most of the MA pilots are crappy aimers so i dont worry too often. Back to the point, if your going for immelman, your Loop will be LONGER then the spits since he is pulling his stick harder therefore he is loosing more Energy in doing so. But remember he WILL get a shot at your belly, and that is usually the only shot he will get. If he does go up to try to do a barrel roll with you, and by miracle when you turn down on him and his nose is pointing up at you dont be scared to go HO, at this point the spit will have one hard time to make a shot at you since he is probebly concentrating on keeping the plane in control. All too often i see pilots that try to do an immelman but just have no idea how to pull one off and their timing of doing the second part of the immelman is way off.
Knowing when to pull is the key, you always try to get under the others plane nose and pull gently, you wont be in a blackout so you can keep your eye on the con at all times.. Learning the immelman takes time like any other move.
-
The double immel is a nifty move against those planes. Mostly they won't expect it and as soon as they see you nose up, they will often pull hard in a loop. Also, if you are at a good cruising speed your double immel will travel more vertical distance and put you on top of the fight. This move is not for the timid though, screw it up and you've got a pony w/ no E and a bad guy shooting at you.
I don't go over 10k AGL either, very often. FWIW my convergence is 350-375-400 outside in.
A good thing to remember whether you are offensive or defensive is the pony's manuever envelope. If you get bounced by a planes that compress... 109, 38, spit, niki, etc, you can use your high speed turning to slip away and reengage as you see fit.
You'll really enjoy pulling that 109 down on your 6, teasing him w/ your tail, then breaking as little as 30 degrees and watch him fly helplessly by.
Against La7's it rather easy to chop, drop flaps and pick up their tail as they go by.
Stay far enough ahead of your plane that you don't get corralled by a faster speed plane w/ turnfiter friends...heap big trouble if these guys know what they are doing.
-
I fly the pony a bit different I suppose. I don't turn in it unless my opponent is obviously not a good turner (ie: D9, 109s, F4U, ect.) Mostly I tend to rope in it, I'll come into a fight higher than most if not all opponents, zoom down, take a shot if i get one, and zoom back up, watching closely to see if anyone follows me. If they follow upward, wait till you think they are going to stall, kick in a notch of flaps and come down for an easy kill. This works well as you can keep your E for a long time, stay above the fight, and completely dictate how the fight develops. Hope this helped...
-
Thank every one. Looking forward to reaping my wings off trying to dive on a low con :D
-
Ded, when ya come back to rooks we'll lawndart ponies together.
:)
-
Originally posted by Steve
Ded, when ya come back to rooks we'll lawndart ponies together.
:)
That wont take long. I moved to rooks cause their numbers were low (during my time online). It looks as if their numbers are ok now so I'll try Bish for a while. Besides, I'd rather fight agains the best.
(if you see a 51 acting like a spit, don't shoot. Its probably me trying to get killed)
-
Steve,
Any chance I can try to lawndart a few ponies with ya? I love the P51 (it is a beautiful ride), but have not figured it out yet.
Oh, and thanks for the ride in the dueling arena last week, fun to watch!.
-
Sure thing gollum, I'm really good at ramming planes from behind and dying too!
BTW I won the next one, clean.
-
If you're gonna turnfight a stang, you might as well fly the P-51B. It rolls a bit better and you need to turn fight with it because with four .50 cals you're gonna need to hang with your target a bit longer.
Just make sure you don't go over 450ias or so or you'll be fighting compression.
-
I knew I should have hung around for the next one...::aok
I have seen you stats, you do alot more than ram 'em. :D
-
(if you see a 51 acting like a spit, don't shoot. Its probably me trying to get killed)
Lol Ded. Fly erratically like that against me and you'll probably win. I seem to have a real knack for ramming guys that fly all squiggly. I fall to the ground in flaming pieces, and they go merrily about their oblivious way, happy that they just killed some dweeb named Steve but totally unaware as to how they did it.
-
Originally posted by Steve
Lol Ded. Fly erratically like that against me and you'll probably win. I seem to have a real knack for ramming guys that fly all squiggly. I fall to the ground in flaming pieces, and they go merrily about their oblivious way, happy that they just killed some dweeb named Steve but totally unaware as to how they did it.
I rember both times. Single ping from D800 from FM cut your 51 in half. Second time you came out of the smoke in one of the bases, brobably around 20K or so :D, and I pulled the triger for the HO.
I had to use all my skill both times
-
Originally posted by gofaster
If you're gonna turnfight a stang, you might as well fly the P-51B. It rolls a bit better and you need to turn fight with it because with four .50 cals you're gonna need to hang with your target a bit longer.
Just make sure you don't go over 450ias or so or you'll be fighting compression.
Ha, but then how am I going to run to safety after I screw up?
-
anyway, is there any "rule" to this. I have been trying to fly the pony myself lately and I seem to be getting a bunch more assist's and not as many kills as I didnt in the cannon'd Typhi.. I also seem to be hitting other airplanes more and them not dieing, but megoing back to the tower. Someone told me yesterday that the slower plane usualy survives the collision and the faster plane dies. Is there any truth to this or am I just unlucky. B/Z in a pony your always going to be faster so this makes a little since, but is it true? Is is someting built into the game? Steve next time I see ya, I would like to wing with ya for some advice. Thanks (S)
SkipNutz
-
Lol Ded.. wtg. Well, at least I didn't ram ya.. I'm making progress.
-
Originally posted by T1loady
anyway, is there any "rule" to this. I have been trying to fly the pony myself lately and I seem to be getting a bunch more assist's and not as many kills as I didnt in the cannon'd Typhi.. I also seem to be hitting other airplanes more and them not dieing, but megoing back to the tower. Someone told me yesterday that the slower plane usualy survives the collision and the faster plane dies. Is there any truth to this or am I just unlucky.
Thats False. Ive fought La'7s before where they didnt have enough ammo left, i would chop my throttle and let em hit my tail, i knew they would die, but i guess its just another one of those little "tricks" not many people know about.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Ha, but then how am I going to run to safety after I screw up?
Don't screw up! Just keep doing fancy pilot stuff until either you or your target dies. ;)
-
Originally posted by T1loady
anyway, is there any "rule" to this. I have been trying to fly the pony myself lately and I seem to be getting a bunch more assist's and not as many kills as I didnt in the cannon'd Typhi.. I also seem to be hitting other airplanes more and them not dieing, but megoing back to the tower. Someone told me yesterday that the slower plane usualy survives the collision and the faster plane dies. Is there any truth to this or am I just unlucky. B/Z in a pony your always going to be faster so this makes a little since, but is it true? Is is someting built into the game? Steve next time I see ya, I would like to wing with ya for some advice. Thanks (S)
SkipNutz
I think the slower net connection wins. Not the slow plane.
-
Originally posted by gofaster
Don't screw up! Just keep doing fancy pilot stuff until either you or your target dies. ;)
Every death is a stepping stone toward learning :)
-
Originally posted by dedalos
I think the slower net connection wins. Not the slow plane.
I've had 56k before and i still die often to rams with DSL connect. Unless of course every person that ive rammed had 56k, which of course would be a false assumption.
-
Sure, the double immel seems fancy, until you get a 38 who triple immels on you. :)
-
Originally posted by Ecliptik
Sure, the double immel seems fancy, until you get a 38 who triple immels on you. :)
Good luck pulling that off, unless you have at least 8k under you.
-
Come swing by h2h Wld, we will see which 38's and Navy planes you can handle bud. ;)
-
Originally posted by Rude
Now you can fly it like Beetle and never take a risk or just sneek up on folks, but, the real fun in this plane is in the weeds with the furballers:)
Alternatively, you can do what Rude would do - dive on a couple of N1Ks and try to turnfight with them. When you realise you've completely porked it up and get blasted, just pretend you were AFK taking a phone call. :rofl
Nice advice about the convergence, WT. I will bear that in mind. But my plane for this tour is going to be the P38L - convergence not a factor. I got quite a few kills in it last night, and one death (compression/lawndart) after I had released rockets in another "risk free" pass on a GV position. Flippin' eck, the guns on that P38 are powerful. :eek:
-
Originally posted by Sway
Come swing by h2h Wld, we will see which 38's and Navy planes you can handle bud. ;)
If moot didnt have any problems with ya, i shouldnt have any either ;)
BTW i hit one of your rooms a while back, but u were afk..
-
I have almost no experience in P-51Ds.
However, I have some experience fighting them.
As a 109 flyer, I can say that the dumbest P-51D tactics against a 109 is a straight forward BnZ attack which comes down and immediately goes up after. All 109s, even the lesser Gs like the G-2 or the G-6, can neutralize the alt advantage the P-51D holds very quickly.
Lure a P-51D into a shallow spiralling dive down to 400mph, and roll out of his sights at the last moment. If he climbs immediately upwards, the 109 can catch him going up unless his attack pass was something higher than 500mph. About up to 70~80mph speed difference, the 109 can close the gap.
That means, the most fearful P-51Ds I've countered are those who don't do that. Particularly P-51D pilots with good gunnery, are a menacing experience to fight against.
Those P-51D pilots don't just come straight down and run straight up in a long, dull straight line. What they do, is they maneuver and carefully position themselves right on top of my head, pressuring me to a very uncomfortable state.
When I see a P-51D at 6Oc position, coming down to me in a shallow angle from distances more than 3.0k out, I actually feel comfortable with that.
But when I see a P-51D right above my head at 3.0k circling around, maneuvering so he always stays right on top of me, instead of my 6 or high 6, that freaks me out.
It's because I can't force anykind of meaningful overshoot when he comes down from that position and angle. Also, since he will be coming straight down to me from the top of my head, it's impossible to turn into him and force him into a high speed, high deflection front-quarter shot. Those shots are usually very hard to land. Aggressive tactics against a BnZing enemy plane usually requires the defender to turn and meet his every attack - I can't do that if he's coming straight down from the top.
..
So, I naturally try to gain some distance, and move away into a position where I can see him at my 6 or high 6 Oc. A good P-51D pilot knows that fact, and he will always try to deny me the chance to do so. Staying at the top of my head.
And when he sees an opportunity, he drops down. Because I couldn't lure him into a long spiralling chase, I can't neutralize the differences in E states. While I am squirming around, trying to lose him from the top of my plane(can't build enough speed), he dives in from a high angle(builds large speed).
The result is, I can't follow him up in that case. Every pass he makes, is like that - it's incredibly annoying and incredibly nervous to see an enemy who does that.
-
About the onlyest thingI could add is you should pick your fight carefully, at first, anyway. Charging in hell-for-leather the way I do sometimes, with little or no SA, is a sure way to die quickly with 1 or 2 kills at best, and no kills at worst. My best success comes after I've upped sufficiently away from the action to get to preferred alt and look around a bit. I've tried bouncing people from 24K...that's just no good. Best alt, as has been said by WT et al is between 10 and 15 K agl. Below 12K I can do better than hold my own against Corsairs (my favorite matchup in a Pony).
In short, when flying the Pony, be patient.
-
Interesting post, Kweassa. That 109 zoom capability is quite something. I was once even able to zoom up in my G10 behind a 163 and catch up to it and nail it.
You talked about a 109 v P51 dogfight. Can you produce a film to illustrate what you said in your post above? Not casting doubt on what you said; I'd just like to see it in action.
-
Historical matchups are my favorite battles, nothing better to see is an LW in flames and headed towards the ground :D
-
Speaking of "fancy pilot stuff" , there's a move where it looks like the pilot is starting a loop but he goes up sideways (i.e., his flight path is turned perpindicular to the target's)and rolls back behind the the target. I've seen WT do this with a plane on his 6, and the other day, Urchin did it to me on the merge. It looked like he was starting a lead turn but instead his plane was sideways and he just rolled over on me as I was comming up in my loop.
Now I've be trying to practice this, but I get very disoriented when I try to turn the plane perpindicular to the the targets path while I'm going up. Any hints about this move, and does it have a name?
If my description is off, and you don't understand what I mean, I can post a little diagram.
-
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Speaking of "fancy pilot stuff" , there's a move where it looks like the pilot is starting a loop but he goes up sideways (i.e., his flight path is turned perpindicular to the target's)and rolls back behind the the target. I've seen WT do this with a plane on his 6, and the other day, Urchin did it to me on the merge. It looked like he was starting a lead turn but instead his plane was sideways and he just rolled over on me as I was comming up in my loop.
Now I've be trying to practice this, but I get very disoriented when I try to turn the plane perpindicular to the the targets path while I'm going up. Any hints about this move, and does it have a name?
If my description is off, and you don't understand what I mean, I can post a little diagram.
I use it with the LA7. Don't know what is called but sometimes, I simply cannot find the other guy after move. Sometimes he is just sitting nice and slow in front of me. I started doing it when my stick had a problem and when pulling up it would also make my plane turn, lol.
-
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Speaking of "fancy pilot stuff" , there's a move where it looks like the pilot is starting a loop but he goes up sideways (i.e., his flight path is turned perpindicular to the target's)and rolls back behind the the target. I've seen WT do this with a plane on his 6, and the other day, Urchin did it to me on the merge. It looked like he was starting a lead turn but instead his plane was sideways and he just rolled over on me as I was comming up in my loop.
Yes i know what your talking about :) Were just pulling off a reversal, a mere barrel roll thats gentle but yet helps get on your 6. As the con is coming closer with more speed, he is subject to passing by faster than me, so i go up sideways, and i know he cant move with all that speed so i can pull up sharper and roll onto him before he even knows im there. Some cons against this move is that you do slow down alot, but nonetheless you do get a quick snapshot.
-
Nice advice about the convergence, WT. I will bear that in mind. But my plane for this tour is going to be the P38L - convergence not a factor. I got quite a few kills in it last night, and one death (compression/lawndart) after I had released rockets in another "risk free" pass on a GV position. Flippin' eck, the guns on that P38 are powerful.
beet ... are you using combat trim or manual trim on the P38?
The reason I ask is that I took some P38 lessons from Delirium and Silat, and the first thing they told me was to use manual trim ONLY. Lawndarting/compression is always a concern with the P38 but not so much when you are trimming it out manually. Also, when trimming manually, that plane is a locomotive in the sky ... big and powerful ... combat trim on ... I think I remember Silat saying something to the effect ... "Its like flying a bus".
-
Originally posted by SlapShot
Nice advice about the convergence, WT. I will bear that in mind. But my plane for this tour is going to be the P38L - convergence not a factor. I got quite a few kills in it last night, and one death (compression/lawndart) after I had released rockets in another "risk free" pass on a GV position. Flippin' eck, the guns on that P38 are powerful.
beet ... are you using combat trim or manual trim on the P38?
The reason I ask is that I took some P38 lessons from Delirium and Silat, and the first thing they told me was to use manual trim ONLY. Lawndarting/compression is always a concern with the P38 but not so much when you are trimming it out manually. Also, when trimming manually, that plane is a locomotive in the sky ... big and powerful ... combat trim on ... I think I remember Silat saying something to the effect ... "Its like flying a bus".
Slap - unfortunately, I'm only able to use combat trim because I have no trim slider on my stick. It'll be OK; I had much the same problem with 109s, and would hit the "trim to speed" button when I saw that I was about to lawndart. That would pull the nose up faster than I could raise it with elevator.
-
Originally posted by beet1e
Slap - unfortunately, I'm only able to use combat trim because I have no trim slider on my stick. It'll be OK; I had much the same problem with 109s, and would hit the "trim to speed" button when I saw that I was about to lawndart. That would pull the nose up faster than I could raise it with elevator.
What about using the "I", "K", "J", "L", ",", "." keys on your kb?
-
Have him stop by also, I need a second chance. :D
-
Originally posted by Sway
Have him stop by also, I need a second chance. :D
lmao..
I dueled to prove something back in the old days Laz, dont do it anymore ;) Since i dont need to :)
-
Slap, i fly with combat trim on all the time. i have heard the same tho about it, fly with it off that is. i just havent had any problems with it on.
~S~
-
I don't have anything to prove either.. except to you ;)
-
Yes.. You you rock Lazer, you super uber pilot you. See? I didnt even have to duel you to tell yas that ;)
-
Im not buying it.. lol
-
A quick run-down on the P51s:
P-51B Compared To P-51D:
P51B is lighter, climbs better, rolls better, turns better. The downside is that it has 2 fewer guns and less ammo that the D-stang. The D-stang seems to accellerate in a dive a bit better, plus it doesn't compress nearly as bad as a B-stang does. The B-stang has a blind spot behind it that the D-stang doesn't. The D-stang can carry heavier bombs. The B-stang will suffer drag penalties if you carry rockets, whereas the D-stang will be "clean" after you've fired all your rockets. The D-stang "blinks" beyond icon range, letting everyone know that you're a D-stang and gives them a chance to runaway. A B-stang can close the gap before the icon gives it away.
I prefer to use the B-stang as my fighter plane and the D-stang as my bomber. The B-stang is just a better air-to-air performer overall. All things being equal, a B-stang should "pwn" a D-stang in a fight once the airspeeds drop below 400ias.
The D-stang is the better air-to-ground aircraft and a better bomber interceptor (just remember to stay off the tails of B-17s and B-26s and instead use deflections shots and make high-speed swooping passes). Its also a better Boom-n-Zoom fighter in that it can put out more punishment in a snapshot than a B-stang can.
The B-stang will start to shudder just over 400ias, and will compress at around 450ias. The B-stang will slip sideways before it starts to shudder, an indication that speed is about to become a problem. Listen to what the airplane is telling you. If you feel that sideways slip, drop a notch of flaps, retard throttle (if you haven't already), and kick a bit of rudder. If you find yourself in a state of compression, use the trim keys to get your nose up.
I set my convergence at 450 but usually don't start shooting until 350. The reason why I have it set to 450 is so I can shoot from a farther distance and land my shells, increasing the duration of my firing window. I typically carry 50% gas and drop tanks and avoid engagements until I'm over 10k. The D-stang can have a vicious stall if it gets too slow and may need that alt to recover.
-
If you use trim wrong though.. it hinders you. I wouldn't plan on doing so hot in it until you learn it well. I know how to use trim very well, but I still stick with combat trim because I haven't had anyone really prove to me that I needed to manual trim. ;)
Maybe some of these guys wanna go to DA when my money gets to HTC, because I want to see what this trim can really improve.
-
Originally posted by Sway
If you use trim wrong though.. it hinders you. I wouldn't plan on doing so hot in it until you learn it well. I know how to use trim very well, but I still stick with combat trim because I haven't had anyone really prove to me that I needed to manual trim. ;)
I know that HTC said once that there was no significant difference between manual trim and combat trim.. Im too lazy to find that post but i remember him saying it. The only plus to manual trimming is that it helps you get out of compression dives.
-
Theoretically, manual trim would only hinder you if you have the plane trimmed "out of plane", meaning you've trimmed the plane so that it wants to go in another direction other than straight and level. If you've done that, then you end up countering the trim by applying stick pressure. You would then be countering drag in one direction with an equal amount of drag in the other direction, doubling the amount of drag on the plane than if you'd trimmed it for neutral flight all along.
Typically, what I do is use manual trim to get out of compression, then set combat trim to get back into neutral trim condition.