Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: frank3 on February 04, 2004, 12:16:37 PM
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We all know our trusted Thunderbolt has an excellent performance at high altitudes.
My question now is, what do they mean with this? It's speed? Roll rate? Acceleration? Turn rate?
I've done many high altitude dogfights with every version of the P-47 but it's 'performance' didn't impress me that much. I could only do ho's with other fighters (mainly 109's and spits) since I could turn that fast (I needed to make a large turn in order keep my speed) The speed was excellent tho.
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Hi Frank,
>We all know our trusted Thunderbolt has an excellent performance at high altitudes.
>My question now is, what do they mean with this?
Quoting myself from another thread on this board:
If you want to see what the P-47 is really worth, just superimpose the speed and climb graphs of the standard P-47D I'm using for comparison, and those of the Fw 190A-8.
The P-47D is slightly faster below 20000 ft than the boosted Fw 190A-8 (with erhöhtem Ladedruck), and much faster above that altitude. While the Fw 190A-8 has a slight climb rate advantage at low altitude, both types are equal at around 25000 ft, and above that the P-47D gains an advantage.
At 27700 ft, the P-47D is almost 70 mph faster than the Fw 190A-8 - I'd certainly not call that "inferior" :-)
Even the Me 109K-4, though it would easily outclimb the P-47D at any altitude and outrun it just fine at low and medium altitude, couldn't compete with the P-47D's speed above 25000 ft.
As the strategic air war in the ETO raged between 20000 - 30000 ft, the P-47D was certainly better suited for it performance-wise than the Fw 190, and was good enough to take on even the highest-performance Me 109 ever built.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Quoting myself from another thread on this board:
HoHun, you lazy dog, have you signed up to fly here yet? Some of us (or at least one of us) are (is) looking for you.
- oldman (btw, Frank, keep 47 fast, at all alts, and you will be amazed what it can do. Try some yo-yos, just keep the speed over 300)
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A question about the P47 performance?
Are the performance gains that the Paddle blade Hamilton Standard Constant speed propellers and water injection modeled into the D25/D30 series.
These 2 changes were in effect during these block production runs.
It improved climb rate by 400 FPM, improved turning.
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Originally posted by frank3
We all know our trusted Thunderbolt has an excellent performance at high altitudes.
My question now is, what do they mean with this? It's speed? Roll rate? Acceleration? Turn rate?
I've done many high altitude dogfights with every version of the P-47 but it's 'performance' didn't impress me that much. I could only do ho's with other fighters (mainly 109's and spits) since I could turn that fast (I needed to make a large turn in order keep my speed) The speed was excellent tho.
with wep, the P-47D30 will outclimb a p-51 above 15kft. Above 20kft it will outclimb it even without wep.
also, above 25kft the p-47 is as fast as any of the other fighters or faster.
and last but not least - thin air:
stall speed is MUCH higher in high altidues (true air speed), this means that if you can't pull hard turns high up for long, making turnfighting difficult (good for the p47).
Also, this will make you reach stalling speeds pretty quick and here the exelent stability of the jug becomes a great advantage.
And more - in a zoom climb, you have inertia and prop pull working for you. down low, niks and spits hang on their prop forever - but high up where speeds are higher (TAS) your inertia will be much more important, and who carry inertia better then the fat jug? (plus your relative power/weight ratio is better)
Bozon
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So basically it's biggest advantage is the speed.
I've done some research with P-47 vs 109 but the 109 still turns much better at high alts (and doesn't loose much speed) or am I wrong here?
I'll give it a try when someone is willing to climb to 20k :)
Thanks everyone
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Hi Oldman,
>HoHun, you lazy dog, have you signed up to fly here yet? Some of us (or at least one of us) are (is) looking for you.
Thanks! Though my usual paranoic self tells me "You're in trouble now - they're looking for you!" ;-)
Argh, the AH2 beta is out and I didn't notice! Well, download started, will take some time but I'm on my way now!
As an old warrior, I'm sure you remember the terrible treatment the Jug received in AW! Though I did better in other fighters, doing just moderately well in THAT Jug dropped more jaws than any of my other stunts :-)
Of course, it was a combination of a little more altitude than the enemy, and a little more speed than the enemy, and a little better SA that did the trick.
OK, OK ... to be honest, the most important factor was the Jug's ability to safely absorb massive battle damage whenever I screwed up :-)
Regards,
Henning (Hohun)
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I'm far from an expert with a jug...but it's a plane thats often underestimated. I've had plenty of fights with all kinds of planes at lower alts (I almost never fly over 15k) and have done well. I normally fly it with droptank and 1/2 ammo...so if I pickle the tank I usually have about 1/3 fuel (burn it from 1/2 then go to DT). The jug can E fight nicely and is deadly vs spittys and la-7s that stay to fast. Key in a jug is to be aggressive and force the fight early.
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I've done some research with P-47 vs 109 but the 109 still turns much better at high alts (and doesn't loose much speed) or am I wrong here?
Any advantage the P-47 gains at altitude would be because of its engine/supercharger. It maintains full horsepower to a higher altitude than most other planes' engines do. But this won't directly affect turn or roll performance. Any plane that can turn tighter than a Jug at 1K will turn tighter than a Jug at 25K. And almost all planes can turn tighter than a Jug.
ra
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I know the Germans gave the P47 the nickname "Jabo" (forget the rest of it and what it means) because they hate it.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I know the Germans gave the P47 the nickname "Jabo" (forget the rest of it and what it means) because they hate it.
You seriously need to look up that.
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It's just another target. My Tank will beat it any day :D
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Originally posted by HoHun
As an old warrior, I'm sure you remember the terrible treatment the Jug received in AW!
Remember it? People like HR used to make fun of me because I kept flying it. You will be amazed to find that in AH it is actually a pretty good plane, much closer to reality than the AW version. Lots of fun.
Expect to see you in the CT.
- oldman
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Originally posted by HoHun
As an old warrior, I'm sure you remember the terrible treatment the Jug received in AW!
Remember it? People like HR used to make fun of me because I kept flying it. You will be amazed to find that in AH it is actually a pretty good plane, much closer to reality than the AW version. Lots of fun.
Expect to see you in the CT.
- oldman
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p47 probably shattiest fighter in MA without alt advantage. Great B&Z plane though, not easy to miss with 8 guns blazin.
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Not at all Sway, one of the best fighters in the MA, alt or no ALT, you just need to learn how to fly it.
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I'm quite capable of flying most american fighters, but a spit of any type will thrash a jug if It wants.
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(most spitflyers don't :))
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Jug is a suprisingly good phone booth fighter...it's got a great roll rate and handles very well on the edge of a stall...flaps give it enough of a turn rate to suprise the unwary...more than a few spitties have gone down hard going for the "easy kill"...jug is all about the pilot not the plane itself.
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Tips for the Jug..
I take internal fuel never external.. why? drag is worse than weight (this thing is a beast, weight has little effect on it.)
When you want max accel. put her into a shallow dive maybe .5k per min or less.. your be surprised at the proformance increase at minimal loss of alt.
Try to use 3g turns or less when able. Always think energy..
Carry the light ammo load 1068, 1068 makes difference in my opinion..
You do jabo take the heavy ammo load..
Raise seat slightly maintaining full crosshairs, no gamey stuff just a slight improvement...
Fly the d11 first and work your way up..
D11 is most forgiving in flight and decent dogfighter...
when defensive use rolloing scissors like a 190.. works even better in a JUG IMO due to stability...
Do not pop flaps when defensive, until stall speed. (always be thinking energy no exceptions)
Utilize flaps when on offensive if needed, combine with throttle management you will get the gun solution long enough to vaporize almost any enemy.
Utilize fast climbs when in combat zone.
250 ias at 1.5 - 2k (d11) to 250 ias at 2 - 2.5 (d30) you need to keep speed up to at least 250 to manuever. anything slower and your Jugging (no pun intended)
I set my guns at stagger 4 guns 275m 4 at 300m
This puts a kill zone at 200m - 500m with a 1 sec burst...
use your own preference i like to get close...
Set you wing to the battle line when climbing out near combat.. (important in d11, no so much in d30 due to excellent visability)
attack bombers with inpunity. they have no chance .... (use tactics though dont fly dead 6..)
When defensive utilize the Head on.. They want to play chicken, serve them..
(exception would be the 4 cannon planes and other heavily armed ones..)
Youll be surprised when they take the dirt nap and you fly home on leaking oil for next 10 mins..
Durability.. this thing takes ground fire like no tomorrow.. and lives to talk about it... Use this attribute its the Jugs strength..
Zoom and boom... should be your primary tactics.. since only a sec solution time is needed against all fighters stall fighting should be shunned in multiplane engagement.. One on one if you have advantage (pilot or position) don't be shy the jug can get the gun solution even if briefly to finish them..
when in doubt and defensive with air under ya.. head straight down.. Rolling as you go.. Nothing can follow you in this highspeed barreling becuase when they get solution pull hard and chop throttle if necessary. Usually youll out run them. but if not use above technique and watch them overshoot in the dive.. 8 .50s later theyll be cursing you a cheater...
Thats it for now enjoy..
DoctorYo
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Carry the light ammo load 1068, 1068 makes difference in my opinion..
Dunno about this, having all that ammo is worth the temporary extra weight imho.
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I've had many dogfights (no-icons fights, 4 vs 4) with 2 x 1067 rounds. I've never used more than 1000 rounds.
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Originally posted by frank3
I've had many dogfights (no-icons fights, 4 vs 4) with 2 x 1067 rounds. I've never used more than 1000 rounds.
that's cos without the icons, you only shoot when the bandit is right in your face... unless that is actually your wingman you are shooting at (did I say I was sorry...?):rolleyes:
also, in the MA you usually aim for more then 4 kills.
Bozon
btw, was a fun and instructive to try icons off fight. thank you (was "velox" in H2H account).
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one of the most fun things to do in a JUG is to go rightoutside a furball dive get to like 500+ mph and then fly into the furball looking for anyone that comes close to your path and unleash the wrath of those 8 50 cals and then take that huge jug and zoom like a rocket ship and repeat this till low on ammo or fuel
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Well the only other aircraft in AH I know has pretty good hanging on prop ability in AH is the TA 152H but that's once the wing tanks are empty( like they should be for normal flights) the Ta becomes a really good High alt ifghter virtually hanging on it's prop and leaving aircraft like the Jug gasping to catch it and to some effects the Pony suffers from the same thing against the Ta above 25k , though the spits for some reason in AH can hang pretty well and can zoom climb with it,for some strange reason.
Anyhow those are my thoughts and the Jug is a good plane in the hands of a good pilot no question about that.
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Originally posted by bozon
that's cos without the icons, you only shoot when the bandit is right in your face... unless that is actually your wingman you are shooting at (did I say I was sorry...?):rolleyes:
also, in the MA you usually aim for more then 4 kills.
Bozon
btw, was a fun and instructive to try icons off fight. thank you (was "velox" in H2H account).
Velox! YOU!!! It already thought it was strange to shoot down 2 of a 3 plane strong enemy formation, chasing the last on and get shot from behind :eek: But those things happen in real live (use the zoom button next time :))
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one thing I like about the P47 is at low speeds on an enemy... if they go inverted you pull up and when facing straight up (leave full throttle and keep pulling back) your nose flips over quickly and you gain a short burst onto enemies canopy (with those 8 50 cal its long enough).
Yes... I get down n' dirty with 109's, etc. only use E when I am outnumbered by 3 or so (or against zero's, hurrs and early spits but they dont count.;) )
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Puh, spits are no thread at high alt :rolleyes:
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Hi Oldman,
>HoHun, you lazy dog, have you signed up to fly here yet? Some of us (or at least one of us) are (is) looking for you.
Following your ecouragement, I tried both AH2 and AH1. I didn't sign up in the end, but I was VERY impressed by Aces High generally. You can read more about it at:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109849
(I got bashed there for my post. Well ... "inevitably", I'm tempted to say.)
>Expect to see you in the CT.
The CT only seemed to have around 10 players while I flew, so I ended up in the MA. This might have been part of the problem.
>You will be amazed to find that in AH it is actually a pretty good plane, much closer to reality than the AW version. Lots of fun.
I took the P-47 up for a couple of flights and thought it was great! I got shot down, but that took a pair of Me 262s, and quite a number of increasingly well-coordinated attacks. I was quite happy with that fight as I felt I made myself a difficult target (for a while at least :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Following your ecouragement, I tried both AH2 and AH1. I didn't sign up in the end, but I was VERY impressed by Aces High generally. You can read more about it at:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109849
Sorry for the responses you got from most of my colleagues, HoHun. CT numbers at European times have always been tough, so I'm told. With luck, that will improve. In the meantime, don't forget that you now have the ability to fly in the Head-to-Head arenas for free, forever. One of my sons does that, and has a great time and some good fights.
- oldman
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Jug is a great plane at all alts if you fly it right.
If you are used to fly "planes" like the lala or spit you are in trouble tho.
Btw...want the P47N .....no, not the M, the N