Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HavocTM on February 04, 2004, 02:26:24 PM
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The moderators thread was getting too long, so I thought I would start fresh.
I think it's just fine and dandy that we get muted for saying dirty things. God knows, I have experienced that plenty.
Along that same line, though, I think anyone who gets caught cheating should be 'muted' in the sense that they can't fly for ten minutes the first time, and they are banned totally if they do it again.
I know we throw the 'cheating' term around a lot, and a lot of times it is just network anomalies. But, I think we all know about the cable modem warp trick and it's just getting OLD!
I guess I am just saying a lot of effort is focused on keeping a clean environment for (non-paying) children, while the real crimes go unpunished.
Just food for thought.
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Originally posted by HavocTM
But, I think we all know about the cable modem warp trick and it's just getting OLD!
Details please :confused:
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LOL! Unfortunately I don't have them. I don't use cable, and even if I did it would be no fun cheating.
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Originally posted by HavocTM
LOL! Unfortunately I don't have them. I don't use cable, and even if I did it would be no fun cheating.
Just wondering what it is. I am not looking to cheat. But if someone is cheating me I would like to be able to tell.
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Here is one example:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shawnlau/la5evasive.zip
Take a look at TweetyBird's film and it shows a perfect example. (It's near the end, coincidentally when Tweety starts shooting.)
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Originally posted by dedalos
Just wondering what it is. I am not looking to cheat. But if someone is cheating me I would like to be able to tell.
You saddle up on someone's six and just as you're about to squeeze the trigger, he turns his cable modem box off. Instant disco rather than a death.
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Explain why it's particular to cable modems.
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Originally posted by gofaster
You turn your cable modem box off. Instant disco rather than a death.
No, he is talking about a warp tric. I had the disco thing done to me a few times. I would like to know what the warp thing is
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Apparently, you bump the power button on and off real quick or just pull the cable for a second.
I don't know why it works with cable and not DSL. I have DSL and I haven't tried it.
Anyone have insight as to why it works? I think if we get it out in the open we have a better chance of fixing it.
Havoc
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If some idiot wants a disco instead of being shot, give it to them. It's not like they are going to progress in skill by shutting off a cable box, and I don't think it hurts anybody besides themself.
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Originally posted by Sway
If some idiot wants a disco instead of being shot, give it to them. It's not like they are going to progress in skill by shutting off a cable box, and I don't think it hurts anybody besides themself.
Agreed. Its anoing seing lancs diaspear after being spoted but all you lose is some alt. If a fighter can warp on demand and as a result they kill you, something needs to be done about it.
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Yeah, not saying its a good feature, but I wouldn't count on them doing anything about it, not big enough deal yet. :)
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I thought the warp trick was opening up a program in the background while running AH which causes some kind of delay. I have seen it *possibly* used once. The warp came at way to convienant time but of course I have no film and no actual proof.
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Maybe the solution is to film evrything and when encountering convinient warps for the same guy, multiple times, send the film to HT. I am sure then they will do something.
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Originally posted by HavocTM
But, I think we all know about the cable modem warp trick and it's just getting OLD!
Sounds like an urban myth............... can any one here say that (if they wanted to) they could show how its done to prove its viability as a cheat?
When do we notice warps the most?......... I suggest its when we are closest to and intently watching the other con........... and when is that?
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I have seen several "induced warps" suspects lately, It seems to be a growing trend.
I was in a small battle w/ several wingmen around, we killed all but 1 spit, so now theres bout 4 of us on this lil spitty, i'm the closest & closing. When I get almost in gunrange, I hear over range radio- "watch out- he warps when you get a shot lined up" sure enuff- he dissapears for about 2 seconds, then reappears after a direction change. Now naturally its gonna be hard to trick 4 guys even when yer cheating, he died.
Thats just the most memorable instance, but unfortunately theres a few bad apples out there who arent capable of learning to outfly the opponant & have resorted to feeble tech cheats to try & increase their odds of survival. Seems to be increasing, which means it will be more likely to be exposed. I hope-
A_Clown
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I notice that the guys at HTC are quiet on this thread, so I assume either nothing can be done or they don't care.
Oh well, at least they care about whether we say naughty words.
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In before they lock.....umm havent you guys been around long enough tp know that and disscussion of cheating here will be locked ASAP
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LOL I can almost feel the lock coming...
My whole point is that if we are muting folks and banning them because of language, because it offends paying customers, we should mute and ban cheaters along the same lines.
I mean, isn't cheating covered in the TOS? I would almost consider cheating 'illegal' in that it circumvents the code.
On thing is certain though, someone will always find a better way to cheat.
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hehe....not locked yet....
I've flown flight sims for 10 years now and can't think of more than 2 or 3 true hacks...but I'm sure there are more...all in all they do a good job of policing the game. If you think you've seen or been the victim ... film it ... and send it to skuzzy ... absolutley no good comes from BBS on this...
Best one I ever saw in AH was F6 carpet bombing...needless to say we dont see that one much...so I guess they can & will do something about it.
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The problem with filming, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the filming process is not simply capturing what is happening on the screen, it simply captures data of where your planes are, their type and what speed they are going. The film viewer then re-renders the battle in real time.
This was a problem when we had the folks who were making their icons and their planes 'disappear'. Even though you couldn't see their icon, for example, it would show up on the film because the film recorder didn't actually record what was showing on the screen.
So I think the answer is awareness and I think that's what the forum is for.
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Originally posted by HavocTM
The problem with filming, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the filming process is not simply capturing what is happening on the screen, it simply captures data of where your planes are, their type and what speed they are going. The film viewer then re-renders the battle in real time.
This was a problem when we had the folks who were making their icons and their planes 'disappear'. Even though you couldn't see their icon, for example, it would show up on the film because the film recorder didn't actually record what was showing on the screen.
So I think the answer is awareness and I think that's what the forum is for.
You're wrong
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Bwahahah!
Which part?
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I'll be filming any plane that is disappearing/re-appearing.
A_Clown
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I've played all kinds of internet games, and every single one has already banned players for hacking the program. It would be idiotic to believe AH is immune to such.
Now that said, the two times I've griped about cheating, playing the film back revealed I didn't see what I thought I saw. One time there was TWO p51's and another there were TWO smoking la7's. Both times, I thought I was fighting a single plane (great SA eh?) :D
As for as the film I posted, I really do think it was just a warp. I posted it because it was so convenient, it was funny. If you think about it, with net delay, it would be impossible to time an intentional warp that perfectly. He wasn't seeing the exact angle I was seeing. If fact he probably never was where my front end showed him.
There's no doubt some people have hacked the front end (they get around it in other games - why not here?). But they're probably still not that good and have little effect on the game as a whole.
Worse would be unjustly accusing a player of cheating. The one time I did that (the other time I just grumbled over the squad channel ), I apologized to the player.
I think its safer to let HTC worry about any hacking.
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Umm, I'm with Box on this one. Detailing a "how-to cheat" in the general is, well, bad :)
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Geez. Another paranoia-rumor "It's a proven fact because it's been filmed and I've heard other players say this ..." thread. Complete with "HTC is ignoring this thread so it must have some validity" thrown in to make things more believable.
:rofl :aok :lol :D :rofl
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So, why doesn't anyone try to duplicate it?
Two people go to DA try to duplicate it while filming. Then post the films.
Tapakeg
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Simple because it's always "some one else" doing it.
HiTech
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Cable modem cheat hhmmmm...i could be wrong BUT, i really do not think u could get it to work and make it advantageous becouse of several factorsa that i won't explain here {aint gonna teach ya how DUH!] im just speaking as a technician and i deal with em all tha time....yes u can turn it on and off, is it advantageous nope, can it hurt your connection and possibly skewer somthin up u betcha:aok just my humble 2 cents worth.
P.S. could they catch ya if u use a cheat? umm if u was smart enough to figure that out ya wouldn't have to cheat!:rofl
one more note: everything that is done , spoken, or typed in the game can be seen, heard and read by the " POWERS THAT BE"
i know iknow but, some people need PRACTICLE ADVICE!!:cool:
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One fine day flyin across the way.....happened to fly into an enemy base, about 12k.....Being a knight, we were naturally outnumbered, so what the hell - let's go in and die!
Since the numbers were about 5 to 1, I figured I should killas many of em as I can. Strafe the runway, got 1......by now there's spits, la7s, and most other planes. Woohoo! let's see what we can do. get in a turn fight, and few allies around to draw em off (hopefully) but lo n behold....an La7 about to HO! Alright since I'm a niki I have about a 50% chance. Splashed him! I'm happy since I normally die quickly......So, lookin round tryin to get out, I glance at chan 1. 'You ***** Cheater Seraphim! thats why you have good rank You cheater!'
Surprised? I am, especially since 99% of the flyers have shot me down easily. Not the 1st time, but I still couldn't help bein a bit flattered.
Until he drags it out......and drags it out.....I tried to make some humor to alieviate the situation, but some people just can't stand being shot down . (imagine that!!!)
I'm sure a few of you have been there, and I hear from one of his contrymen it will be reported to skuzzy.
Now, I understand about this whole lag thing, many times I wanted to say 'cheater', but since I'm not that great of a pilot, I figured the enemy knows a bit more than me about who/what they are fighting with/against. I can't imagine getting any satisfaction from winning by cheating personally, yet there are some who love to accuse because of lag or just sheer luck.
So I think I'll just keep flying, and next time I shoot down ***(you know who you are) I'll just have to keep laughing !!!
P.S. I was shot down about a minute later.....
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I could be wrong, but I got to the point that I believed the "instant warp just as you squeezed the trigger" thing was not a cheat but possibly connected to sound somehow.
Seem's to fit. The computer does afterall have to think for a second as your gun sounds engage, and the "warps" usually weren't really bad... just enough to usually get the target out of the kill zone.
Never not once did I ever see a plane warp drastically without firmly believing it was net-lag induced.
But... AH is an online computer game and prone to hacks just like every single other online game. To think it's not is actually extremely naive, however we know HTC watches that stuff closely.
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No one ever accuses me of cheating :(
Must because I have an air of honesty about me...yea thats it:)
Has nothing to do with those pieces flying off my plane.
...constantly wondering "hmm, did I need that?"
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Here's the film(be sure and turn icons on):
http://www.bops.us/films/film15.ahf
Duplicated it six times before filming, twice more on film.
Now let's see if we can fix it please.
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I have a film also, I would like someone at HTC to look at. In this flight an f6 ditched in excess of 200knts - real close to 250. I went back to play the film to see if I saw what I thought I saw. The film wont play. It just shows a tower view - no radio traffic, no vox, nothing, yet its 2mb long. This is the first time I've ever had a film do this, and its probably something easily explained. If I send you the film, can you tell me why it won't play?
Edit: after thinking about it, it might be a problem with the map. I know Fester posted the map had some problems. So I'll chalk it up to that. But if you you want to look at the film, I'll send it tot you.
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Yes, it's a map problem (filming on Fester's map). Mine did the same thing. Yes you can cheat with a cable modem. Lock me, ban me or whatever...it's out there and it's being exploited. I flew with Havoc in the MA and we duplicated it on demand (not in NME contact, so no cries of US cheating). It's not a disco death, it's being able to warp and live.
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Originally posted by rpm371
It's not a disco death, it's being able to warp and live.
Also known as being a complete and total loser. :rolleyes:
These jerkoffs should be banned from the internet.
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Big Cup of STFU
Is it me or did it suddenly get quiet in here? lmao
:)
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This is the "cheat" that produce the "warp to six" and the planes flying through mountains or under ground. It is unfortunately nearly impossible to do something about since it is just deliberate or "forced" lag. I tested my theory in the TA when I became suspicious of an La-7 that seemed to fly underground, or otherwise disappear as soon as I got on his tail, just to reappear somewhere else. I won't tell you how it's done, but I can say it is possible to interrupt communications with the server for about seven seconds without being "discoed", and in that time you can do all sorts of turning while your plane on the enemy's FE flies straight (on the last course you had before you cut the link to the server). When you reengage communication to the server you instantly warp to your new position". The "warp to six" can be done if you have a con on your six that is gaining slowly on you. You just do the "thing" and cut throttle. On the enemy's FE you seem to continue going straight at a constant speed, while on your FE you are slowing down. After a few seconds you reengage communication with the server and "warp" behind the con who thinks you just disappeared only to find his plane disintegrating from your fire.
Using the inherit weaknesses of the system like this is definitely cheating in my book, and the only way to catch a cheater like this is by filming your fights and sending the film to HTC. If HTC get many complaints about the same player, one can safely say that he/she is cheating or have a connection too unstable to play this game.
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On a serious note, just to reiterate what we said in the film, we do NOT condone cheating in any form. It's dishonorable and sucks the fun out of the game.
The cheat is a result of packet loss, which causes the server to lose track of your plane. When the connection is restored, the position is instantly updated, thus the warp.
This same situation happens when you have a crappy connection, but in that situation it is unintentional. I assume that since AH relies primarily on a stateless (but very efficient) UDP connection, there is nothing that can be done. However, I feel it is incumbent on us to film and report the cheaters.
As far as I know, the intentional warp only happens with cable modems.
I think if someone is caught doing this, they should receive a stern warning or suspension the first time, and a ban if it happens again.
Ultimately, the decision is up to HTC and my point in starting this thread was to raise awareness. We don't tolerate vulgarity, racism, or sexism, and I think this should be on the same level.
Havoc
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It doesn't matter what modem you have, I've got ADSL. There are many ways to interrupt the connection, and with all the new "generation X" players joining I expect increased cheating in the future. It's just the way it is. Happened with CT and every other multiplayer game out there. It is bound to happen here too. The question is what will HTC do about it?
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It doesn't matter what modem you have, I've got ADSL. There are many ways to interrupt the connection
Proof of this being done w/ADSL or any other connect method has not been posted.
Only cable.
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I have done it with ADSL!!! (testing in the TA)
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The type or make of modem and/or internet connection is irrelevant. There are plenty of ways to interrupt the connection without turning off the modem. All that is needed is some basic networking knowledge. It is extremely simple, which is why I fear for the future of AH.
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I have done it with ADSL!!! (testing in the TA)
Please post your evidence of this.
Like I said it's never been proven.
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Cheat!sung to the tune of "Sign"
Cheat! Cheat!
Everybody cheats!
If they shoot me down, they must be a cheat!
If I see a warp, then I know they chee-eeaaat!
Now hey there fella, I saw that.
You warped as I was shootin and that's a fact.
I filmed it, gonna send it asap.
You ain't supposed to do that!
And the sign says anyone caught cheatin'
will be shot on sight!
So I typed on channel one I said ...
I saw one the other night!
I was bearing down on him, he was already dead
then alla sudden he warped away
came around and shot me instead
Ooooohhhhh
Warp warp, everywhere a warp
everyone's cheatin', they know how to warp
it's just no damned fair
I wish I could waaaaarp
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Sundowner, I think he is being vague on purpose so as not to give anyone ideas. There are more precise ways of messing with packets than wiggling wires. And again, there is no need to get into such a discussion.
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I dont wont him to post "how" it's done!
A simple film of ASDL being used to warp will suffice without any of the "hows" included! lol
All we know for sure so far is that is possible to do it with cable.
"Fantastic proposals require fantastic evidence."
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Simple way to detect all the cheaters in AH
look up my records from 7/01-8/02 and Puuh from9/02-5/03, and whoever shot me down, is a CHEATER!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
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Sundowner, are you new to AH or just new here on the BBS? Anyways welcome! :)
If you spot me in the MA roster one day, say hello and we'll go to the TA. You can film while I cheat, it takes two to get it on film.
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Thanks for the invite:)
Not new to AH
Just dont post much to the Forums :)
Player ID is
Sundownr
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I am so bad at this game, it doesn't matter if other people cheat or not. They still kill me in the end. I never cheat, nor I never intend to, but how often do cheaters like these come up in your games? Do they cheat often, or just rarely?
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Very rarely. I can only recall a couple of "incidents", however they were bad enough to ruin the fun. I know HTC does not like that we discuss cheating on the BBS, but I don't know whether HTC is aware of the problem, ignoring the problem, or working on solving it. In my experience there is no solving it. You can only lessen the problem by making it difficult for the cheaters, however there are measures that can be taken in a subscription game like this. The AH chat is being moderated, it is time player behaviour was moderated too. It is clearly not possible for HTC to directly "moderate" every player, however we, the players, can report strange behaviour to HTC, and let them make the call if it is cheating/gaming, and take the appropriate action to prevent it. Like I said, HTC doesn't like us talking about cheating, but sooner or later HTC will have to face the problem ... or potential future problem.
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::reads what this thread has become and walks quickly away, whistling. Hoping doesn't accidently get caught under the big boot that is surely going to fall on some of the posters in this thread::
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Well, all i have heard for the last week is that when the office opens monday, my account is going to be cancelled, my computer burned and my family murdered.
I have a feeling that HT is dealing with the issue in a righteous manner. LOL
Anyway, if I am dead tomorrow, it's been nice knowing yah!
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Originally posted by HavocTM
Well, all i have heard for the last week is that when the office opens monday, my account is going to be cancelled, my computer burned and my family murdered.
I have a feeling that HT is dealing with the issue in a righteous manner. LOL
Anyway, if I am dead tomorrow, it's been nice knowing yah!
Hmm, believe the last guy that posted something similar here got banned for a month. 'Course, you would need to ask DmdBT (Lonz) to be sure :).
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Originally posted by hitech
Simple because it's always "some one else" doing it.
HiTech
Since all you got from me so far is whinnig, I would like to take the opportunity to say that I have played a lot of online games. None of them for more that a month because of cheating. What a mess. Unless you had the book wwith all the cheats you were dead in seconds. So, congratulations to HT for having a game that is not easy to cheat on. I've been here for a year and the closest I hove gotten to cheating is hearing about suspisions of it.
Good job guys :aok
Back to whinnign now, :D
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My belife is it dosn't happen. Im sure it has been tried. But think what realy happens when you disconect. You fly straight while you are disconected, and also the plane you are fighting also warps just exactly like the player who discoed.
There are other more likely conditions which can cause a plane to jump back. These I will not discuss "so don't bother to ask" because they involve very propriaty techniques.
The accusations of cheating are much more of a problem than any cheating happening.
Ultimately, the decision is up to HTC and my point in starting this thread was to raise awareness. We don't tolerate vulgarity, racism, or sexism, and I think this should be on the same level.
This type of statement is exactly the problem. Raiseing awareness is exactly what shouldn't be done. Bring a problem directly to us is what should be done. By starting this thread im sure there are now people trying it, and finding out it dosn't realy give you any advantage.
Im about ready to take the flip side and ban anyone who makes a false acusation of some one cheating. It can hurt AH just as much as any real cheating can.
So Im closing this tread, And be warned I will no longer tolerate ANY discusion of cheating on this bbs. If you feel some one is cheating Film it and send it to HTC.
HiTech