Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sox62 on February 04, 2004, 10:09:47 PM
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Ohio passed a shall-issue CC law last month.
As a staunch supporter of our constitutional rights,I shall of course apply and receive one.
I'm now looking for a carry gun,as I don't own anything right now that would be easy to conceal(not to mention being heavy).What I want is opinions from people have have a carry license and have ACTUALLY shot their carry weapons,not what you may have read in a magazine.Any and all input is appreciated...
Oh,and anti-gun people need not post.This topic is about what people carry,and quite frankly I don't give a rat's bellybutton what your opinion on firearms happens to be.
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.38 Detective Special snubnose revolver in a black finish is easily concealable and has adequate firepower. Doesn't weigh all that much, and if you carry it on your person all the time, that makes a difference. Plus, the revolver is more reliable and less likely to jam on you than a slide gun. Keep in mind a revolver will jam if you don't keep it clean. Don't carry a gun if your revolver ever jams...that means it hasn't been used in a while.
When I was younger, I used to practice a lot. After 40 or so, eyesight starts going for most people, reflexes slow down, etc... Most of my friends got rid of their pistols when they had children around. Didn't want to take any chances.
Les
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The first question is how much experience do you have with pistols?
It really just depends on what you want and what you're comfortable with.
I have a Colt Officer's Model .45ACP that can be easily used for a carry weapon. However, because it's simple and easy to use, when I do carry concealed, I use a J-Frame Smith & Wesson 5 shot revolver with a hammer shroud.
(http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/163070_large.jpg)
It fits inside an Uncle Mike's inside the pants holster:
(http://www.gunaccessories.com/UncleMikes/panthol1.jpg)
The combo is small, easy to use because all I have to do is slide the holster inside my pants and it's very stealthy. It's not a .45 ACP with Hydro-shocks, but for a conceal carry gun, it's adequate. I leave it in my truck and just slip it in my pants whenever I feel like it.
The same thing can be done with a small auto such as a Walther (although I traded a PPK .380 for a Ruger .22 because the Walther kept taking skin off my thumb). Or, if you can do it, one of the small frame Glocks or Sigs.
To me, you want something that is easy to conceal, easy to carry (i.e. put on) and a gun that you're comfortable with.
My best advice is to go to a gun range and shoot several guns until you find a small one you're comforatble with. Then you have to find a holster that is convienent to use. Usually an inside the belt type with either a clip for the pants or a snap-loop for your belt. Galco, Bianchi and Sparks all make first-quality leather holsters if that's what you want.
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I should have mentioned,I'm planning on buying an automatic.For whatever reasons,I'm not a big wheelgun fan.
As for going to the range,I plan on doing that.I'm going to try one or two I've been looking at,and any that you might suggest that interest me.The range I go to rents them for $10.I've being considering this...(http://www.kahr.com/images/kp9093p9.gif)
And this...(http://www.kahr.com/images/kp4043.gif)
Keep the suggestions coming.
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IMO, 9s are easier to fire in quick succession. With a larger calibre, I have a hard time firing in quick succession (emptying a 10 clip in 10 seconds) into a decent sized area at decent ranges (100 ft).
My friend, however, had a concealed permit (he let it expire) and carried a Glock .40. That thing had a lock of kick and was difficult for me to keep on target when I was firing quickly.
Really what you should do is head down to your local range and ask them if you can try out (for the price of rounds and maybe a rental) various calibres and see which one you feel most comfortable with.
-SW
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As Dune said, holsters are a consideration. There's a device called a "belly band holster" which is about 6" wide with velcro fastener. Can't remember where I bought mine...from some catalog many moons ago. Had to modify mine with a shoestring latch over the hammer to hold it in place. Carried a .44 Bulldog while jogging, and it held it in place very securely. With this holster, you can carry while on a jogging routine. Didn't have to have pants with pockets or a belt. Could use this wearing sweatpants and a sweater. Was very secure with the shoestring modification.
Don't recomment jogging and carrying, but may be at some point where you'd like to. This holster works for any concealable pistol.
Les
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S & W 38 snub nose,5 shot,aluminum frame, hammerless, in a inside the belt holster.
even with t-shirt and shorts you can't see it.
and no , i never had to shoot it in self defense, just the sight of it will turn off most perps.
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I've taken the Tactical Pistol Instructor course from Sigarms Academy, and I've also taken all of their CCW courses as well as a pile of certs from other schools. This is not just my hobby, it's my job now - at least one of them anyhow.
My first advice would be to take some training if you haven't already from ANY reputable school, such as Thunder Ranch, Fronsite, Gunsite, Sigarms, ANYWHERE. Just take some training, regardless if you have L/E or military experience, as CCW stuff is much different from what you would have learned previously.
Secondly, your choice of caliber and firearm should be based on comfort, your hand size, what type of medium you may have to shoot through, such as glass windows in your car, your attackers clothing (heavier/leather in colder climates) etc etc. There are a lot of factors, but you really can't go wrong with ANY firearm, so long as you have good basic skills in getting it out and using it, in addition to discretion as to when this should occur.
My best advice would be go with what you're already familiar with, and be sure to carry at least ONE extra magazine. Sigs, Glocks, 1911's, HK's...every major brand out there will have a weapon that can serve you well. On my range, the Sigs and 1911's outlast everything, I've yet to have a Glock or HK make it past 40,000 rounds, and have pictures on my server of Glocks that have come apart at the serial numbers in under 5000 rounds. Just be aware any gun can break at an unpredictable time, so having a backup system for CCW and good access to armourers and parts is important to consider.
Sigarms gets feedback from Naval Special Warfare, the FBI, the USSS, you get the picture, as the academy trains all of these units and then some. The one common thread I've noticed from the feedback these folks give is that people drain ammunition at much greater rates when the **** hits the fan, and many CCW holders in the USA have made the error of not having at least one extra magazine or speedloader. This is probably the most critical and common mistake.
So, get a good reliable pistol, train with it and practice your CCW draw, malfunction drills, all of the basic stuff, and also get good accessories, such as a VERY good holster and mag pouch. That brings up the point of how you plan to carry your weapon - Inside the pants, high ride, shoulder rig, small of back, fanny back...they all offer something different and require different drawing techniques so you minimize the chance of you blowing off fingers of your non dominant hand if you have to engage somebody who rushes or grabs you.
You'll want to have yourself trained to be very consistent and fast with your gross motor skills, as every "expert" out there agrees that you'll lose your fine motor skills, be affected by your bodies startle response, get auditory exclusion, and have the lens of your eye flatten out, IF and when you have to engage somebody who is a threat to you.
Also, if you think you may have to go into a higher threat area, consider getting yourself a good back up weapon, such as a very small auto or revolver, and practice as much with it as your primary weapon.
Practice practice practice. The more you draw up, press that trigger, and verticle track your target , the more likely you'll be to do it right when you need to.
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Just thought I'd mention this as a matter of safety. I've heard some fellas say they keep their gun in a vehicle. Now I used to do this, but it was well concealed in the trunk of a car with no inside the glovebox release button.
When I did carry, I never left my gun in the car, but had it in my pocket if I made a trip to the store, or wherever I went driving and had to get out to go do something...restaurants, meetings, etc. I didn't carry at all if I was going somewhere I wasn't supposed to have a gun.
The reason for this is safety, to prevent theft of the firearm while away and out of contact with the car and the gun. One of my friends was almost shot in a nightclub parking lot by someone who had stolen a .25 from a truck in the same parking lot 5 minutes earlier...while the security guard was inside drinking and checking out the scene.
Just seems like Murphy's Law, if something can go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible time. Just a thought, but felt obligated to cover this base.
Les
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If you go by the theory that the gun you have with you when you need it is infinetly better than the one you left home because it was a hassle...
the keltec in .32 or the new .380 are pretty good... got to shoot a .32 and it points pretty good. they are beyond small and light.
lazs
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Lazs, et al, can anyone recommend a good belt holster for the gun range? ( I don't use this particular pistol for conceal and carry self defense, too large)
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yeah... either get a clip for it (goes under the grip and parralels the barrel) or get a kydex (plastic one that clips on) . Most ranges make you leave the gun open on the table tho.
lazs
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Really Lazs? Here in Canada every range I've been to holsters are ok, and a lot of ranges will let you run hot as well.
What Lazs said Rip, get a IPSC style blade holster ($$$), or an Unkle Mikes Kydex holster. Kydex = cheap and fast to draw from, blade is faster, put you lose retention, not that the kydex has much, and it's more expensive.
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Originally posted by Gman
Really Lazs? Here in Canada every range I've been to holsters are ok, and a lot of ranges will let you run hot as well.
What Lazs said Rip, get a IPSC style blade holster ($$$), or an Unkle Mikes Kydex holster. Kydex = cheap and fast to draw from, blade is faster, put you lose retention, not that the kydex has much, and it's more expensive.
Thanks, I've seen the Uncle Mikes Kydex clips, reasonably priced. I'm joining a gun club later this summer (Son wants to go rifle shooting, he's getting a pellet gun this summer) so I will need one. For now, the "table" is fine at the indoor shooting range.
They turned my plinking spot into a housing development this past winter. :( I'm forced to go to a range or join a club at this point, or drive an hour to get to a spot where I can shoot.
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I don't know about you guys, but I don't trust my life to anything other then my 1911.
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Depends on the 1911. The more you tune it up, the less reliable it gets. I've had one of John Jardine's Valtros for the last 4 months, they are comparable to a Baer in terms of tuning from the factory. At 6000 rounds the main safety failed, then broke. At 14000 rounds I've had to replace the sear spring as the gun was going full auto.
On the other hand, any of the 5 Kimbers I own have yet to have any trouble, but they are not as fast in terms of trigger pull/cycling as my tricked up (internals) Valtro. My Kimber Super Match has 75,000 rounds through it.
1911's are my personal preference as well, just remember, any gun can and will break at some point.
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The class I took had some simple rules for buying...
1) quality - you don't want something that'll fall apart or jam
2) comfort - how it fits your hand
3) caliber - more mass = more stopping power
4) concealability - how and wear you plan to wear it
I carry a Glock 22 (.40 cal). When I was shopping, I looked at the Glock and the Sig. Glock fit my hand better. Wanted something in the .40 -.45 range for stopping power. For carrying, I 've got a belt clip that goes in the front waist band, or I put it in a fanny pack. Downsides of the waist band...can't tuck my shirt in, and it's sometimes difficult to get it in "just the right" position to be comfortable to sit. Downside of the fanny pack...kinda obvious you've got something big in there.
With some of the newer ammo out, you can get decent stopping power with smaller rounds. I've thought about picking up a Walther PPK .380 with prefrags.
9 mm is nice also. The only thing I really dislike about them is it's such a fast round. If you were to use it in a home defense situation it could go through a wall and hit an innocent bystander.
If you're looking specifically for something for home defense, hands down best option...shotgun.
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Rip,
If you want to go with a leather holster, look at Galco or Bianchi.
The holster I have for my Colt Officer's Model is a Galco Fletch
(http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/normal/FLETCH1.JPG)
And for my Gov't Model, I use an Askins Avenger type by Bianchi
(http://www.tacticalshop.com/graphics/00000001/avenger.jpg)
Two other hoslters I really like for big automatics are the Summer Special by Milt Sparks
(http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/SSpecial_large.jpg)
And the Yaqui Slide by Galco
(http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/normal/YAQUI_S.jpg)
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What you need before you buy a weapon is some serious instruction from someone qualified to give it (Assuming this is your first pistol) in firearms safety.
Then take a course related to Concealed Carry and what it entails. You could end up in big trouble if you don't understand what you can and can't do.
Finally, get a lawyer on retainer. If you shoot someone, even if it saves your life and there are no criminal charges, you're still going to get sued by the family for Wrongful Death and it's going to cost you Big Bucks.
Good luck, and be safe...
Glock 17
Glock 26
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Originally posted by Otto
What you need before you buy a weapon is some serious instruction from some qualified to give it (Assuming this is your first pistol) in firearms saftey.
To be honest, I never got any pistol instruction, formally (I did have to for hunting though, long rifle) You see, my father was a Staff Sergeant in the 101st Airborne during the Korean Conflict, so I got his basic training course for firearms at about age 12 (with a .22 pistol, then a .45 once I was big enough to handle it)
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I prefer the Glock in the smaller models for ease of concealment. I have 4 now and at one time had another. I have never had any failure of the Glock other than based on ammunition. The cases were reloaded and not properly sized, They wouldn't chamber in a SW either.
The Department I retired from has had extensive Glock experiance and has had no "faliures" of the units staying together or functioning outside of ammunition problems.
The Glock is light and in all the ones I have fired very accurate as it comes out of the box. I do recomend that, whatever you buy, you put at least 500 rounds through it at the range in practice before staking your life on it. This means with the ammunition you intend to carry in it as well. You want to make darn sure that it will shoot where and when you want it to.
Holsters are totally subjective. I used the "mexican carry" most of the time with the pistol tucked inside my waistband on the primary side behind my hip. I have also use the "yaqui slide" as well as a couple pancake, shoulder and hip holsters. Frankly a revolver is a bit more secure in the "mexican carry" style than an auto but I never had a problem. I guess "love handles" are good for something. :p
Caliber is another issue. I would have nothing smaller than 9mm with a GOOD expanding bullet. A .40 is nice and a .45 is ok as well but whatever you use make sure you can shoot it accurately. A miss with a .45 is a lot worse than a hit with a .22 any day.
Also keep in mind that you pay particular attention in your classes as to the circumstance of when NOT to draw and or shoot. If you are not in fear of your life or protecting another directly in fear of their life you had better keep the gun holstered. The liability and finality of a firearm are tremendous and you cannot call the round back once it's launched.
Having said that, it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Just be very careful and sure of the circumstances you are in.
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Originally posted by Otto
What you need before you buy a weapon is some serious instruction from some qualified to give it (Assuming this is your first pistol) in firearms saftey.
One of the requirements of getting the license is a 12 hour course.The basic firearms safety I already observe,but they also will show when it is and isn't appropriate to use lethal force.The best scenario of course,is it never having to leave the holster.
What I really like is now I'll be able to wear it to the range,and not have to unload it,store the ammo seperately,etc.
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Don't want to hijack this thread, very excellent stuff so far, but this will be quick.
Maverick, the reason your department likely experienced so few Glock problems is the same reason why most departments don't: Cops shoot their service sidearms very little in the course of their service life.
In Calgary here, the Tactical team is shooting 1000 rounds per week through their Glocks. Guess what? They are going to a 1911, along with Vancouver city TAC and a bunch of other units, as no matter what ammo you run, the Glocks fail faster than most pistols.
I run a fleet of over 100 rental guns. Not one Glock has made it past 40,000 rounds, and most last less than 20,000. I have 8 Glocks at the factory being looked at due to stuff like this -
(http://www3.telus.net/public/gcorn1/glockframefailure.jpg)
(http://www3.telus.net/public/gcorn1/glockslidefailure.jpg)
The only ammunition ever run through any of our firearms is Winchester factory lead free non toxic winclean white box ammo. This isn't a question of an overpressurized round. We sell RUAG Seca ammo, and the factory guarnatees that it'll blow up a Glock in 3000 rounds or less, yet run 50,000+ through a steel framed Sig. We've tested this, and it's true.
I'm not a Glock basher, I own a 26 and a 17, and they make great service pistols as they are easy, safe, and reliable, yet if you plan to shoot a LOT, it isn't the best choice by far, due to the reliability issues. Again, out of the 20 or so Glock's we've run on the range, every one has had a catostrophic failure on average at 15000-20000 rounds of factory ammunition.
Of the Kimber 1911's and Sig pistols, the only thing I've replaced on any of them is one bushing that went on a Custom 2 in the first 100 rounds, and springs in the Sig pistols. One 226 is at over 150,000 rounds, and my personal Super Match 1911 is closing in on 100k.
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Gman, the bottom Glock has a cracked slide, but I can't tell from teh picture what's wrong with the top one. Is there a crack in the front of the magazine well?
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Frame/rail seperation is the top one.
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I just don't trust guns where you can't see most of the parts.
I.E. Glocks.
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I too will carry.
I'm going with style, grace and character. Walther PPK.
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I'm looking for a slimmer model. How good are the PPK's as far as reliablity? I like my .40cal Kimber Ultra but I don't like CC'n it as it too big for my comfort level...
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Almost everyone who own's a Glock knows there is a 'recall' of some of the 3rd generation pistols in the "E" series such as (EGR022).
Glock has a toll free number to call to schedule parts replacements.
This problem is ONLY in the "E" series.
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Originally posted by Sox62
Oh,and anti-gun people need not post.This topic is about what people carry,and quite frankly I don't give a rat's bellybutton what your opinion on firearms happens to be.
I missed this the first reading...:rofl :aok
I'm putting 200 rounds thru the .40 S&W tomorrow. I'll post my results with some stance, and trigger pressure adjustments (physically, me)
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Originally posted by Dune
Rip,
If you want to go with a leather holster, look at Galco or Bianchi.
The holster I have for my Colt Officer's Model is a Galco Fletch
And for my Gov't Model, I use an Askins Avenger type by Bianchi
Two other hoslters I really like for big automatics are the Summer Special by Milt Sparks
And the Yaqui Slide by Galco
Thanks Dune! those are fine looking holsters.
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I would like to get one(firearm) but I have no idea about the procedure.
I'm guessing that I can't just go down to a gunshop, show I.D.(spotless record) and pick my gun up after a week or two.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I missed this the first reading...:rofl :aok
I'm putting 200 rounds thru the .40 S&W tomorrow. I'll post my results with some stance, and trigger pressure adjustments (physically, me)
The .40 S&W Kahr?
Let me know if you like it.I'm hoping to go to the range Saturday and renting...
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Originally posted by stiehl
I would like to get one(firearm) but I have no idea about the procedure.
I'm guessing that I can't just go down to a gunshop, show I.D.(spotless record) and pick my gun up after a week or two.
Actually...you can.
Now I've been known to carry a weapon though it isn't legal and would be willing to face the penalty if the day came where I had to use it to defend myself. The neighborhood they lived in was very close to a high crime area and if I was visiting this may well have been a situation where I may have had a Ruger P-89 on my person. My first apartment in a town in Ohio was in what would be considered a bad area and shootings were not uncommon nor were burglaries. Yes, when I was at home or out walking to the store after about 7pm I usually carried it in a holster at the small of my back that enabled the gun to be worn under the clothing yet easy to get to (much like tucking it into your belt).
Point is purchasing a gun isn't hard to do, and there are a few steps but I support those with clean records (the ex boyfriend had one) and an education (the ex boyfriend did not have one) on firearms, be it a standardized course or what not. The gun laws we have now are getting to where they need to be, though a smaller number of them would suffice making it a deadly sin to use or threaten to use one in any other instance than self defense.
**note**
There was much more to this post and that is why it doesn't 'flow', in the middle I went into an emotional story that didn't need to be there and didn't feel comfortable sharing. So...here you are.
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For concealed carry?
If I was expecting serious trouble I would reccommend a SIG P228 (9mm), small and light for a midsized frame automatic and utterly reliable. Plus large capacity clips are readily available (14 rounds) and it will also use its big brothers (the P226) clips which are 16 rounds.
Otherwise I'm a fan of small frame covered hammered .38's or .357's. Check out the Taurus 650SS CIA. Its much more economical than the Smith & Wessons (about half the cost).
5 shot, something like 16 ounces, stainless steel, covered hammered, double action only, and will fit in the palm of your hand. Plus if your recoil shy you can shoot light load .38's, or you can go all the way up to heavy magnum .357's And since its a revolver, its a no brainer in operation, whereas with a automatic I would recommend plenty of practice and training. This is the kind of gun you could throw in a drawer loaded, not touch it for 25 years, and pull it out and expect it to work flawlessly.
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Originally posted by stiehl
I would like to get one(firearm) but I have no idea about the procedure.
I'm guessing that I can't just go down to a gunshop, show I.D.(spotless record) and pick my gun up after a week or two.
Steihl, since you're in NYCity, you probably can't. And it depends on what type of firearm you want. I would imagine it would be easier to buy a shotgun or rifle than a pistol. I would find a repuable gun store and go in and ask them. They would be able to help you find out what you need to do in order to purchase a firearm and which would best suit your needs.
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This problem is ONLY in the "E" series.
Um, no.
I run 5 million rounds a year on my range. I've had well over 3/4's of the Glocks that have blown up NOT be in the recall serial number range. The ones that are in the range come apart so badly that the factory usually tosses them and just replaces them with a new one.
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Originally posted by Sox62
The .40 S&W Kahr?
Let me know if you like it.I'm hoping to go to the range Saturday and renting...
Sox,
Taurus PT100 .40 S&W. pretty good quality it appears for under $500.
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I carry a full size 1911.
Heavy, large, but its the only pistol design I cant find anything wrong with. Fantastic firearm.
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I like my 44 mag belly gun (4" plus despurred hammer) and my Kimber 1911 style.45 auto but...
if I had to carry every day everywhere I would go with one of the titanium little .357 revlovers or a keltec with .32 or .380 hydroshocks... I am getting a little slower but I bet I could kick anyones butt after I put 5 or eight hydroshocks into em.
these guns are tiny... they weigh around 16 oz each and you can carry em in a pocket and not be aware of em. the gun you have when you need it is a lot better than the cannon at home.
lazs
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I would go with one of the titanium little .357 revlovers
Lazs, I looked at these when I bought my little Taurus 650 in stainless steel and figured they were just not worth the investment.
The Titanium revolvers were down in the 12oz range versus the 16oz or so of the stainless steel for the same basic gun. And the cost was MUCH more. Titanium was running $600 and up, whereas I bought the Stainless for $325.
And to be honest, I would figure the Titanium to be TOO light. Even with the stainless at 16oz, it has considerable recoil with magnum loads (even with nice Hoge grips), and in cold weather is downright painful. The first day I ever shot it, it was about 35 degrees outside (christmas present to myself) and the gun left a bruise in the webbing of my hand and the part between the thumb and index finger on my hand after about 15 rounds thru the gun. Not for the faint of heart.
.38's in it, it kicks and sounds bad, but can be control even by a person with small hands (ie women).
I wouldn't want to think about it, if the weapon was 25% lighter. And you've met me, I'm not a small/weak person.
So personally, I'd reccommend against the Titanium for the small frame revolvers. It just isn't worth it versus the stainless steel, in either cost or performance.
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verm... you are correct but... 12oz is way different than 16 or so when it is in your pocket all day...
As for recoil... I have never heard anyone who fired a gun in self defense who didn't say that they never even felt the gun go off. Practice is rough tho... I recall shooting the charter bulldogs in 44 that I was so fond of.... couldn't blow em up with handloads but... the kick would cut your hand on any corner of the gun..
I have fired the titanium guns and your are correct but... I don't care. If I did care... I would load em with glasser safety slugs.
I have also learned over the years that you ALLMOST allways get what you pay for in firearms.
lazs
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When I had mine when I lived in Arizona. I carried my little Makarov around. Nice little gun. I had an inside the belt holster and a pocket holster. I didnt like the belt one case it was poky when I drove. Pocket holster was cool and when I had my wallet in as well was dang near invisible on my 6'2'' then 240lb frame.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have also learned over the years that you ALLMOST allways get what you pay for in firearms.
lazs
Would this apply to pistol ammunition as well? I see some of that Russian stuff in the store, 2 bucks a box cheaper, but I'm very wary of it.
I usually always use Remington ammo for my rifes and shotguns. (Winchester for clay pigeons)
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I never had any problems with it when using it for my Makarov, but of course since they made both their should be no troubles. I used American JHP for 1st round only as my Makrov didnt like feeding hollowpoints at all.
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All this input is great...and by coincidence,there just happens to be a gun show this weekend.I wasn't planning on buying anything at all,but you never know.
(Must...be...strong)
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rip... what are you talking about? are you talking the steel cased ammo? It is kinda dirty but that is ok... it is fairly accurate and you don't feel bad about leaving the worthless steel cases lying on the ground (where it is permissable like the range)...
One problem is that they are lacquer coated... when the gun is hot some of the film stays in the chamber... Not allways but once in a while.... a round will stick in the chamber and be hell to get out.
I reload and .45's cost me about 3-4 bucks a box. I have used the russian stuff because It was cheap by the 500 rounds and I didn't have to spend time reloading it but... most people have the sticking problem to some extent with it. If you are finding brass cased ammo for 2 bucks a box more.... I would go with the brass.
lazs