Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SunTracker on February 05, 2004, 04:21:36 AM
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I'm sure somebody is going to say this is routine, but it wasn't.
I had just gotten to work, and was walking from my truck to the guard shack. I saw a large UPS 757 on the runway getting ready to take off. I could see the heat shimmering out of its engines, and the pilot was swishing the rudder back and forth. So I walked to where I could see it good, and stood there because I wanted to watch it take off.
So I am there waiting, and waiting, and I look behind me, and theres several lights in the sky - planes on approach for landing. This one light keeps getting closer, and closer, and I thought to myself "where in the world is he going to land?". This big DC8 is coming in slow, with its nose high, and I thought for sure it was going to land on top of the 757. Finally, as it was passing over the parking lot, I heard the engines throttle up and I could see the landing gear being retracted. It still had full flaps down and had to have been less than 1000 feet high, but it slowly leveled off and continued over the runway. In my head I could hear the lso officer from the begining scene of Top Gun "Wave off-Wave off-Full Power!"
I heard somewhere that airline pilots are only allowed 3 'go-arounds' a year. Maybe thats why this DC8 pilot was so reluctant to not go-around.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
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I heard somewhere that airline pilots are only allowed 3 'go-arounds' a year. Maybe thats why this DC8 pilot was so reluctant to not go-around.
If this is true this is the dumbest regulation I've ever heard... I would have 500 go-arounds better than 1 crash.
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dude thats good ..thats 3 go arounds when YOU ARE LANDING ON RUNWAY OPOSITE OF THE ONE You were Ordered too...
just my thought..these guys are tower econtroled...
"WoodChuck to Grey Squirrl..You are cleared for 270 LEft,,,,,"
Or did he hear...
" Woodchuck..to Grey Squirrel..cleard for RWY 090 Right"
ya...im bet someone screweup..
I had a guy com in on final..w/no no radio ,,while i was on final comen doen the DESIGNAted up wind rnwy... he wauin soem open cokpit joby..real asshowle
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I heard somewhere that airline pilots are only allowed 3 'go-arounds' a year.
Yeah, and I heard that winters duration is controlled by a groundhog.
You saw a go around. They happen, and virtually without failure they are not the fault of the pilot, and everybody knows that.
There is no reg or internal rule limiting how many times a pilot can avoid crashing into another aircraft.
dago
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You'd be surprised how close they fly those things. It's scary.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You'd be surprised how close they fly those things. It's scary.
Please astonish us ohh bearer of airline doomsday stories....
:rolleyes:
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Well if there is any truth to the 3 go arounds per career story( which ain't true, but sounds like a good wife's tale for the budding bus-in-the-sky driver wannabes) then there are a boatload of Continental and Jet Link drivers looking for a new position on a daily basis here at Bush InterContinental Airport in Houston :D Usually there is one shared, departure and arrival, runway RY26R/RY8L, and the normal spacing is 2 1/2 - 6 miles between IFR arrivals depending on the wake turbulence spacing required. The Tower will put a departure in the "hole" as soon as the preceeding a/c crossses the runway threshold and launch with a "No Delay or Immediate" Take Off" clearance as soon as the arrival has turned onto the highspeed off the runway. 95 times out of a 100 this works with no problems, but all it takes is the arrival missing a highspeed turnoff or the departure slow on it's roll ("auto-throttles" the killer of the squeeze play :mad: ) and you get "COA1191 Go Around, Traffic on the Runway"
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There has to be some validity to the 3 go-arounds a year. But its been so long ago I can't even remember where I heard it. Using logic, I bet they are go-arounds due to pilot error, not uncontrolable factors.
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There is absolutely NO VALIDITY to "3 go-arounds a year". That's horse exhaust.
No FAA regulation to that effect exists and I seriously doubt ANY company would have that in it's Flight Operations manual.
Why?
Can you see the lawyer's salivating?
"So, Captain.... even though the wind was beyond aircraft limitations for landing, you had an ice-covered runway and another aircraft performed an unauthorized runway incursion right in front of you, you continued the approach and crashed in the flare. Why did you not go around?
"Well, it's like this... the company would fire me if I had one more go-around this year, so I just went for it."
Yah, right. Who dreams up this stuff?
SAFETY is the #1 item in every Flight Ops manual.
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You guys are thinking Naval Aviation and carrier landings.
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I have heard first-hand from a now retired 747 Captain that newbies are intimidated and will take-off into marginal weather to avoid delaying scheduled take-off times. Situation mentioned to me:
Bad weather all around airport with a few bad cells directly in the flightpath after take-off. A newbie Captian for a mid-sized airline was #1 for take-off, just received clearance but he was staring a plane eating cell flashing lightning at his 12 O'clock about 3 miles out. My friend the retired captain (RC) listened as the newbie was nearly arguing with the tower requesting a delay until the cell moved from his 12 O'clock moving to his right, but they were not buying it, and replied that he was holding-up traffic. RC got on the radio and told the kid (that's how RC referred to him) the 100+ lives behind him were his responsibility, and that it was his call, not the towers. The newbie again requested a delay or a return to the gate, after a pause the tower provided a short delay and revised departure course to avoid the cell. RC said the airline companies will come down on pilots that mess with their schedules, but it is more of a power ploy, it boils down to the PIC calling the shots.
Psyco
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Originally posted by Psyco
RC said the airline companies will come down on pilots that mess with their schedules, Psyco
23 years and cod knows how many flights and I've NEVER seen or heard of a Chief Pilot question a Captain's decision on safety of flight at my airline.
NEVER.
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I remember where I heard the "3 go-arounds" a year now. It was a history channel show about air crashes.
Someone told me you flew Cessnas commercially Toad. Which model?
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Cessnas? Yeah, but not commercially. 150, 152,172,177,180,182 and the 210 IIRC.
Commercially, I've flown some non-Cessna stuff like Boeings and Lockheeds.
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
,,while i was on final comen doen the DESIGNAted up wind rnwy... he wauin soem open cokpit joby..real asshowle
wtf did you just say?
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Air Force One did a go around today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/06/national/06PLAN.html?ex=1076648400&en=a2984c230d588d05&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
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So what it you had already had your three go arounds? Would you be forced to crash on your fourth??:eek: :eek:
But seriously I think the rule you're thinking of is in relation to missed approaches during Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC). After three missed approaches it is recommended or even mandatory that you divert to your alternative. A missed approach occurs where you cannot see the runway when you reach the decision height or minimum descent altitude. It could be because of fog or rain or whatever.
The danger is that you might be tempted to go below the decision height if you try once too often. The other danger is that you might run out of fuel before you get to your alternate when you waste too much time at your destination.
You can go around as often as you like if the rumway is blocked .
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Go-around is a flight normal procedure and there should be no restrictions to that how often pilots executes go-around.
Some companies can be very easy on go-arounds and does it even well above the minimum go-around altitude as a company SOP.
Somewhile ago over here in Finland, it wasnt too unheardable that a plane made 2-3 go-arounds just to get over it and divert to another field!
Just a "couple" days ago here was snowing *alot* over the night and only one runway was in use at helsinki-vantaa airport... to make it better, the ILS was made inoperative as well by the snow!
So they had to do VOR/DME approach, which does not have a glideslope like ILS and the visibility was poor.
Many flights ended up doing a go-around or more and then diverted to an another field... or diverted even before.
Some were diverted to almost 200 miles away, when the closer airports ran out of space.
Was quite a busy day for EFHK ATC.
Suntracker,
How was the visibility at the time?
There are certain go-around minimums, based on CAT x classes, which are I II III and subversions. (ie CAT IIIb IIIc...)
CAT III is pretty much full auto-land, while CAT II and CAT I are manual flare & landing, but CAT II approach can be done on autopilot.
Each has different go around minimums, which by the 'runway' should be in sight or go-around should be executed.
CAT I 200ft, CAT II 100ft, CAT III 50ft.
If it had CAT II equipped and was coming to land, I can understand how it was low!
100ft is merely 30 meters....
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Visibility was moon-less night (12:00am) with moderate fog and drizzle.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You'd be surprised how close they fly those things. It's scary.
Not that scary, I've got DCA (national airport) right outside my window.
I've seem the stacked where one aircraft is has left the runway followed shortly (maybe 30 secs) one landing. Listen to it all on the scanner during lunch.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
After three missed approaches it is recommended or even mandatory that you divert to your alternative.
Nope. You're under no FAA reg to go to an alternate at all.
You're only required to file one if certain conditions exist at your intended point of landing. If you have to go missed you can go any where you can get in to land.
Fer instance, you file from airport "a" to "b" but the visibility is forcast such that you have to file an alternate for airport "c". You have to go missed at "b", you're not required to fly to "c". You may even decide to go back to "b" on a different type of approach if one is available.
A go around or going missed is a perfectly acceptable and preferred option to trying to salvage a bad landing.