Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: NUKE on February 06, 2004, 09:28:48 PM
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Do you believe in the possibility of a God who created the universe and everything in it ?
Simple question.
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No. I wish I did.
miko
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keep in mind I said "the possibility" miko, not that you believe in God.
I do have a point I will make , but wanted to get some answers to this first
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it depends how you define "god", but we will all find out sooner or later ........or not.......
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I define God for the purpose of my question as a God who is an entity and that created the universe and all of us.
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I freely admit that it would be nice if I could believe in a god, if there really WAS a god, however, evidence of evil disproves the existence of god, therefore I just accept this fact and get on with my life.
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Yes
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Do you believe in the possibility of a God who created the universe and everything in it ?
That implies believing that god actually exists. If you don't believe he does, how could he create universe ?
So answer is no.
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Originally posted by fd ski
That implies believing that god actually exists. If you don't believe he does, how could he create universe ?
So answer is no.
Actually it implies nothing, it just askes a question.
Remember, my question is: do you believe in the POSSIBILTY of a God who created the universe and everything in it?
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I believe the cosmos was created with intent and for a reason, by what and why I am still struggling with.
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I disagree fd ski,
1. You could believe the universe was not created by a god
2. You could believe the universe was created by a god
or
3. You could believe that there is insufficient information to know which of the previous cases is true and therefore may consider either one as being possible.
To me, the last case represents an open mind, the first two require assumptions or ignorance since we clearly do not fully understand the origins of the universe or life as we know it.
As reasonable as the assumptions of science may seem to be, they are still only assumptions.
But for me, the evidence available supports case 1 far better than case 2. So while I can't say with certainty that there are no gods and that the universe was not created by a god, I can say without hesitation that I think case 1 is far more likely than case 2. However small the possibility, I still concede that it is possible that case 2 is true. But if case 2 is true, which god created the universe and why?
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Yes
But, I'm biased
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Belief in god does not come from information.
So people falling under class 3 try to prove to themselves that he / she does not exist.
Instead, you should be asking yourself, "How has he helped?"
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yes...even if "god" is merely a explosion out of nowhere creating something wich as far as i know may be nothing:( im confused
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Originally posted by NUKE
Do you believe in the possibility of a God who created the universe and everything in it ?
Simple question.
Yes, absolutely.
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Originally posted by Estes
I freely admit that it would be nice if I could believe in a god, if there really WAS a god, however, evidence of evil disproves the existence of god, therefore I just accept this fact and get on with my life.
Interesting logic...flawed, but interesting.
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A higher power called God? Yes
The Bible? Which version? Nevermind, the Bible has been "Interpreted", Rewritten and Abridged so many times I'm not sure if ANY of it is true, so.....No.
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Yes I believe in the possibility of a God that created the universe.
Nuke, I imagine that was the sort of answer you wanted. As oppossed to all the lawyers out there.
Well, please define 'I', 'Believe', 'God' and 'Possibility' and then I'll consider to answer your question.
F ucking P ussies.
BTW. No, I'm not religious, but the question simply stated, "Do you believe in the POSSIBILTY of a God who created the universe and everything in it ?" Not proof or absolute belief.
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no.
Not since someone convinced me getting struck by lightning wasn't because Hera pissed off Zeus again and he missed her with the bolt.
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No
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no
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God as the man in the cloud god? - no
God as the universal divine energy & light we are all but lost pin salamanders of - Yes
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Nice definition of it Eagler. Not sure what my God looks like yet, but maybe something along those lines.
My answer to the question: Certainly.
I would have answered the same even back when I wasn't actually believing in anything. Lacking any evidence for or against god's existence, how can one say with any conviction that there insn't even the mere possibility of it? If you need proof that god exists, why wouldn't you likewise need proof that he doesn't?
I don't have any proof that aliens exist, but I can surely say it's a possibility.
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I believe in God... it's the safest bet. Those that don't believe in God are gambling their eternal soul(in the event it exists).
If I'm wrong about believing in God, no harm done. If I'm right, I score and all the unfortunate heathens and athiests get a very hot reception, lasting all eternity.
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No.
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Hell yes
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heh heh, nice answer MrBlack.
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Originally posted by Steve
I believe in God... it's the safest bet. Those that don't believe in God are gambling their eternal soul(in the event it exists).
If I'm wrong about believing in God, no harm done. If I'm right, I score and all the unfortunate heathens and athiests get a very hot reception, lasting all eternity.
That's just the thing steve - I have NO desire to be watched over, I have NO desire for a life after death in some place called heaven.
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Not really, no.
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Believe in God: Yes
Believe we know anything about God: No
Question: If God created everything, did God create Evil? Seem's to me, allowing evil IS evil.. therefore:???
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I do believe in a higher power .
what it is I have no idea really.
i choose to believe much like the american indians do in a creator
spirit.
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Well that IS the thing Estes.. IF there is a God in the Christian sense... what you desire after death is moot.... your actions in life dertermine your fate, not your wants.
It's a big IF though.
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Spend any time in the moutains of Colorado.
Or in the splendure of a womans soft curves.
Then tell me there is no God.
Or perhapes in the fresh begginings and hope in the eyes of a new born child.
And If that dont do it.
Who takes away your pain when you have lost someone close to you.
you know what I mean the pain does subside enough over time for to to carry on.
Who instilled the natural love a mother has for her child?
Yeppers there must be a God there are too many wonders in this life for there not to be.
Yes gentlemen I am 6'4" 260lbs .
But i am a weekling in his presence and from time to time I drop to my knees to give thanks for all I have for with out him in my life I would be far worthless than I am now.
God sees thue your Bullchit and loves you anyway.
pretty amazing huh.
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Originally posted by Steve
I believe in God... it's the safest bet. Those that don't believe in God are gambling their eternal soul(in the event it exists).
If I'm wrong about believing in God, no harm done. If I'm right, I score and all the unfortunate heathens and athiests get a very hot reception, lasting all eternity.
If that is the basis of your faith, well...
"If I'm wrong, no harm done" that says you allow for the possibility that God does not exist rather than knowing in your bones that He does exist.
When you truely believe the horse will win you don't need to hedge your bet. When you hedge your bet you play the odds and you are not a true believer.
see ya in hell...
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NO.
Originally posted by mrblack
Spend any time in the moutains of Colorado.
Or in the splendure of a womans soft curves.
Then tell me there is no God.
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/rockymtn2.jpg)
There is no God.
<-- 6'-1", 217lb, son of Methodist Preacher.
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n: If God created everything, did God create Evil? Seem's to me, allowing evil IS evil.. therefore:???
Free will
If your statement were true, all of us would be be evil; how many of us go out of our way to stop any evil at all everyday?
If God made us all 'good', wouldnt that be a slave master?
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No
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Lol, you agnostic types are too much.
:lol
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Originally posted by newtype
Lol, you agnostic types are too much.
:lol
Agnostic was not quite the A-word I had in mind.
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me either ;)
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Originally posted by Steve
I believe in God... it's the safest bet. Those that don't believe in God are gambling their eternal soul(in the event it exists).
If I'm wrong about believing in God, no harm done. If I'm right, I score and all the unfortunate heathens and athiests get a very hot reception, lasting all eternity.
That's a well known belief system, Steve. It's known as Pascal's Wager (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html#pascal). (BTW I don't subscribe to that website, and do not engage in rituals wearing a black hood, or anything like that!)
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Yes to the possibility and Yes to the existence.
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If one can't be open minded enough to even consider the possibility of a God who created everthing we know ( our known universe) and ourselves, it would seem to me such a person would have a false sense of trust in what man knows ( or thinks he knows) about the origin of everything.
For all we know our entire universe could be just a firecracker (hypothetically speaking) that some kid in the "real" universe just set off.
I would never presume to understand how it all began, but one thing is sure; the possibiltiy of God is just as reasonable as the idea that all the all the matter in the universe was created in some other way, or that it simply always existed.
That in itself is interesting to me..... the question of matter being in existance forever in time, or that it was created somehow from nothing, in a sense creating itself and all of us in the process.
This same question can relate to the existance of God; did God always exist or did God create God? The Bible says the God always was and always will be.
When it comes down to it, God cannot be ruled out. In fact I think it is more likely than not that there is a God.
It's all very interesting if you really get deep inside of yourself and ask yourself these questions with an open mind.
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NUKE: keep in mind I said "the possibility" miko, not that you believe in God.
That depends on what we mean by "believe", "universe" and "everything" (does it include the place that God resided "before" he created our Universe), etc. I certainly can imagine God createding a Universe. Does it mean I believe in possibility that our Universe was created by God?
Here is how I personally decide whether I believe - if I had to bet anything of value, I would bet against.
In fact, I bet on that every day. If I believed, I would likely act differently in my everyday life than I do now.
When it comes to reality I am perfectly satisfied that the current state of the universe, ourselves included, appeared spontaneously.
In academic discussions, I am perfectly ready to consider the possibility of a God.
miko
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If one can't be open minded enough to even consider the possibility of there not being a God who created everthing we know ( our known universe) and ourselves, it would seem to me such a person would have a false sense of trust in what men knew ( or thinks they knew) about the origin of everything.
For all we know our entire universe could be just a whim (hypothetically speaking) that some kid in the "real" universe just set off.
I would never presume to understand how it all began, but one thing is sure; the possibiltiy of Zeus's head exploding to create Athena is just as reasonable as the idea that all the all the matter in the universe was created in seven days or that it simply always existed.
That in itself is not interesting to me..... the question of matter being in existance forever in time, or that it was created somehow from nothing, in a sense creating itself and all of us in the process.
This same question can relate to the existance of Shiva; did Shiva always exist or did Thor create Odin? The psycic hotline says the superstitions always were and always will be.
When it comes down to it, reality cannot be ruled out. In fact I think it is more likely than not that the ancient greeks were right and this discussion is in regards to a false idol.
It's all very interesting if you really get deep inside of yourself and ask yourself these questions with an open mind to things you would normally laugh at.
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The point being if you're going to take superstitious lore over an attempt, wrong or right, to understand, why this superstition and not another?
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fatty, pretty funny.
I never mentioned relegion by the way.
To make my point simple: science cannot explain how all the matter in the universe was created. If science states that all matter simply created itself, it is just as plausible to state that God created it. If science concludes that all matter always existed, then it's just as plausible to say God always existed.
Both of these things are not explainable by man either way, that is my point. We cannot understand.
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You're right, we will never know everything. There will always be ignorance and religion will always be there to feed off of it. It always had and it always will be, though it's had to evolve now and again once people figure out they can start a fire without a sacrifice.
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Who said anything about religion?
If you are ruling out even the possibility of a God who created everything, then it seems to me that it is you who are limiting your mind and being ignorant.
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If it wasn't a religious reference, it wouldn't be capitalized.
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NUKE: To make my point simple: science cannot explain how all the matter in the universe was created. If science states that all matter simply created itself, it is just as plausible to state that God created it.
There may be a good reason why science will never be able to "explain" the origin of universe or a few other things I could think of.
Human mind is just not able to comprehend things beyong a pretty narrow range - we do not have symbols and concepts to express that knowlege.
In that sentense you have used several deep concepts that developed in human mind to reflect the reality with which our ancestors were faced - which has very little to do with the more general picture of the universe.
"Created"and "always" presumes the concept of time - something coming into existance that did not exist before in time. Also space - created where?
Time is a feature of the Universe and so is space. They both must have originated along with the Universe. So we cannot use those concepts to express conditions associated with its creation.
And so on.
By God we assume a being with intent - hence mind. But it is obvious that such mind would have beed vastly different than our mind. We would not be able to recognise it as mind if we encountered it, so we project and assume that God would be like us but with more memory, processing power, etc. That's not the case.
Obviously if God created the Universe with its time and space, He must be "outside" time and space. We will never be able to imagine, let alone discuss how a mind "outside" time and space woule operate. How does one think of cause and consequence without time? If not, how can we make a statement that God caused the Universe to exist?
Etc., etc... We just cannot understand because we are not equipped to. Science is great in describing its own limitations. The science of mind gives a good idea of what limitations of the mind are - including what kind of science the mind could do.
miko
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miko you have made some very thoughtful statements in that post
I do disagree with you on this though.... when discusing something which has "always" existed, the "always" existed eliminates time as a reference or influence.
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Unless you seriously redefine the meaning of "always", I do not see how always eliminates time as a reference.
Always means at any and every moment (point) in time, just as everywhere means at any and every location (point) in space.
We know (or at least it is plausble) that space is limited in volume and that space originated and seems to continue appearing but we cannot speculate about the environment of the space's existance because we have no categories for it.
We cannot say "beyong" our space or "next to" or "around" because those are all concepts denoting relations withing space.
With time it's even less intuitive. If God created time, he could not exist in every point inside that time. Or at least he could not exist only in every point inside that time (he could enter it) since he created time "where" (have to use some word) there was no time. He could not create time with himslef in it while being "inside" time.
It is easier to make analogy with a space than with time. Say we look at a sheet of paper on which an insect moves that only goes forward. For an insect the space is linear - he discovers it point by point. One thing follows after another for it. But we see everything at once. The insects concepts of causality "I get here and then I get there" does not exist for us because we see "here" and "there" simultaneously.
If we cared to affect the insects paths by re-arranging some gates and tracks, we would see the consequences (end point of his jorney) at the same time as we made a change.
That at least blows the hypothesis of tinkering God out of the water. Basically, God cannot have any reason to interfere with our everyday lives because being outside time he had the complete picture "once" he created the whole space-time continuum - future as well as the past "simultaneously".
Of course you are not referring to the interfering God here but to the creator, so I brough that example just for illustration.
What I want to stress, is we cannot possibly say anything relevant about Creator of the Universe because we do not have concepts to express whatever would need to be expressed.
It's similar in physics. We have some equations that seem to make valid predictions in the ordinary matters but nobody could interpret in physical terms what they express in exotic points - like close to the origin of the Universe. Something happend here but we cannot describe it in terms of the things we know.
miko
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When you hedge your bet you play the odds and you are not a true believer.
Nice try Mcgroin. You presumed much when you typed this.. and presumed incorrectly. This thought was the foundation that induced me to look into religion. My faith sprang from there.
Good thing you like flaming here in the threads, if there is a God in the christian sense, you'll be flaming for a very looooooong time.
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That's a well known belief system, Steve. It's known as Pascal's Wager.
Beet, looks like an interesting website. I really don't have the time right now to look it over. While working in the garage I realized I left my cordless drill in my office. I came upstairs to retrieve it and took a quick look at the boards as an excuse to sit down for a minute. :)
The Pascal's Wager thing is... see above post.
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Originally posted by Estes
I freely admit that it would be nice if I could believe in a god, if there really WAS a god, however, evidence of evil disproves the existence of god, therefore I just accept this fact and get on with my life.
Just an observation but saying "Evil disproves the existance of God." is akin to saying "Fire disproves the existance of water." or "Darkness disproves the existance of light." If your disbelief in a God is based on the premise of a God being incapable of creating anything involving evil (even if it's man's use of it ... or even man's perception of nature within the mindset of "civilization" that makes it that way) then I can see you falling into that mindset but one must ask if evil doesn't exist how does one apply the conception of "good" or how does one discern right from wrong or justice from injustice? Is the elimination of free will, of options, of choice .... good?
Just something for you to consider. :)
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Originally posted by beet1e
There is no God.
<-- 6'-1", 217lb, son of Methodist Preacher.
Being a minister's son is somewhat of an ironic aside though not all that unique. I have no idea what your physical stats have to do with all this. ;)
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Originally posted by Fatty
If it wasn't a religious reference, it wouldn't be capitalized.
Does that make "Washington DC" or "Robert Wagner" religious references as well? :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Being a minister's son is somewhat of an ironic aside though not all that unique. I have no idea what your physical stats have to do with all this. ;)
Yes, that's something I have in common with Alice Cooper! I quoted my stats because MrBlack quoted his!:p
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yes, that's something I have in common with Alice Cooper! I quoted my stats because MrBlack quoted his!:p
Oh! Missed that. Yeah ... he does that alot. It never fails to impress me. Unless .. of course ... I tune it out. Wait .. I apparently do that automatically now. :lol
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god is just the personification of a society as a whole.
so nope. I believe we just are not intelligent enough to truly grasp the universe. no need to make up lies to fulfill the desire to understand it.
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Short answer-YES, not only in the possibility but the exsistance of.
Long answer-Never mind, This thread is full, so far of interesting view points. Some of which I believe are very clouded. But that's my perogitive-OOPS, there is that free will thing again.
This should get interesting as it goes along.
:D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Does that make "Washington DC" or "Robert Wagner" religious references as well? :D
It makes them proper nouns, refering to a specific town or person (or diety).
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This should get interesting as it goes along.
maybe,,but i bet it will turn into a 300 page monster about how stupid some one is for believing in god,,or how stupid some one is for believing in big bang theroy<~~both views can be picked apart till there nothing left,,too many holes,,too many unanswered questions for any rational discussion on this subject,,allways gets too twisted and long winded{good luck} hehehe
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Originally posted by Fatty
It makes them proper nouns, refering to a specific town or person (or diety).
Precisely.
So why should it be assumed that anyone who refers to God as a proper noun is adhereing to religious doctrine by default? Perhaps they are merely professing their personal faith. Truth be told they may not even be doing that. I've seen the word capitalized by those arguing against the existance of a creator before (intentional? subliminal? Who knows. *ShruG*). One may assume much. Many do. ;)
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The answer to the original question is .. YES, there is always a "possibility" for anything. No sense in denying..
Ive had far too many instances where i have been saved by a "higher" someone from possible death.. I have come to the realization some time ago when something strange occured to me in my own living room, but no sense going into it now, since hardly anyone ever believes ya ;)
Nonetheless i still believe in the big bang theory, etc.. Human beings evolved from the "monkey". I guess i tend to look at every different point of view before i finalize a decision..
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In trolling for a response, Nuke opened the argument as if he were speaking of any belief in any entity(ies) that could be completely or indirectly behind the universe as we know it. In asking the question though, he has already restricted it to Judeo-Christian theology. Even if given as much leeway as possible it still restricts to monotheistic religions (referring to a single God instead of a god among others).
It's a pretty common argument method among creationists, arguing for openmindedness from the scientific community but not even acknowledging other religious beliefs in that argument.
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Originally posted by Fatty
In trolling for a response, Nuke opened the argument as if he were speaking of any belief in any entity(ies) that could be completely or indirectly behind the universe as we know it. In asking the question though, he has already restricted it to Judeo-Christian theology. Even if given as much leeway as possible it still restricts to monotheistic religions (referring to a single God instead of a god among others).
It's a pretty common argument method among creationists, arguing for openmindedness from the scientific community but not even acknowledging other religious beliefs in that argument.
God ... you sound like a lawyer. :D
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instead of faith, many have shrinks instead...
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Yes, All i have to say is that Geologist have seen proof of a flood of the world dated back to around Noahs supposed time. Also, some where in Nepal they think they have found the remains of Noah's Ark (i'm not shure of the exact location)
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They've also discovered Troy, but that doesn't mean we should believe Thetis actually dipped Achilles into the Styx making him (almost, except for her shortsightedness) invincible.
Mythology is always told to explain or enhance real events.
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It's a pretty common argument method among creationists, arguing for openmindedness from the scientific community but not even acknowledging other religious beliefs in that argument. [/B]
I have not even come close to mentioning a religious aspect.
It's very simple... I am saying that a belief that a God created everything is just as plausible as a belief that everything created itself. Really that simple. To say that a God is not even possible seems a little closed minded.
Now tell me what religion I am talking about again?
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If you're using proper grammar, a christian god or at least a single god as opposed to multiple gods.
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If there is a God, then which one is it? Is it "God", is it "Allah", is it "Budda", etc? Are they one in the same? I'd hate to go all through life, die, then get to wherever and find out I picked the wrong one.
<----Recovering Catholic, been clean 15 years now.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
If there is a God, then which one is it? Is it "God", is it "Allah", is it "Budda", etc? Are they one in the same? I'd hate to go all through life, die, then get to wherever and find out I picked the wrong one.
<----Recovering Catholic, been clean 15 years now.
Budda shouldn't be covered in this discussion, Buddah is not omnipotent, nor is he a diety. He was a philosopher, and true buddists realize that. There are other buddists that worship him as a diety as well as Kuan Ying beside him.
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Brahms > Wagner
God discussions are boring. Demigods, on the other hand...
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Originally posted by Munkii
Budda shouldn't be covered in this discussion, Buddah is not omnipotent, nor is he a diety. He was a philosopher, and true buddists realize that. There are other buddists that worship him as a diety as well as Kuan Ying beside him.
Thanks for making my point. Who knows which method of worship is correct? Is the higher power going to be insulted because you didn't face Mecca and pray 3 times a day, or are you doing it injustice by just going to church once a week and singing some sings? No one knows, it's all just a WAG. I'd like to think that this higher power would be able to measure your actions by themselves, not by how much money you put in a collection plate, or how many little fish or bumper stickers you have plastered on your Dodge Caravan.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
Thanks for making my point. Who knows which method of worship is correct? Is the higher power going to be insulted because you didn't face Mecca and pray 3 times a day, or are you doing it injustice by just going to church once a week and singing some sings? No one knows, it's all just a WAG. I'd like to think that this higher power would be able to measure your actions by themselves, not by how much money you put in a collection plate, or how many little fish or bumper stickers you have plastered on your Dodge Caravan.
Eh, you have pretty much the same belief system that I have. I'm an athiest, but I believe that if there is a god, he would overlook my non belief in lieu of my actions. I would lead what Christians would concider a good moral life, but I don't believe in god. If there is one, and I'm not accepted because I didn't follow their religion or ever acknowledge their existance, than I probably didn't want to spend an afterlife with them anyways.
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Originally posted by Steve
Nice try Mcgroin. You presumed much when you typed this.. and presumed incorrectly. This thought was the foundation that induced me to look into religion. My faith sprang from there.
Good thing you like flaming here in the threads, if there is a God in the christian sense, you'll be flaming for a very looooooong time.
I presumed nothing Steve, I started my comment with "If this is the basis of your faith," this qualification makes the rest of my statement proper.
Intresting that you qualified your argument by saying "if there is a God in the christian sense" a Freudian slip indicating a seed of doubt which a true beliver would not posess.
Unless of course you celebrate wiccan, hindu, or some other religion which does not share the single God of Abraham, who is revered by Christianity, Judism, and Islam.
>edit for pronoun use
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Originally posted by Munkii
I would lead what Christians would concider a good moral life, but I don't believe in god. If there is one, and I'm not accepted because I didn't follow their religion or ever acknowledge their existance, than I probably didn't want to spend an afterlife with them anyways.
Actually I'm fairly confident that Christ would say you live a life in denial since no man may come to the Father but through him (since all who have sinned fall short of the glory of the Lord). There are many who "claim" to be Christians that he would tell that to as well. Some of them would be quite altruistic in nature. Good Samaritans in every sense of the word except they're stuck in the mindset that they're earning their way into heaven. That's a deception that may surprise them in the end.
It's not supposed to be an "exclusive club" anyhow. It doesn't matter what Christians think and they don't vote you into heaven. It does require asking for forgiveness of sin and acknowledging the man named Jesus who grew up in a Middle Eastern town called Nazareth a couple millenia back as the true son of God who died to be a sacrifice for everyone else's sin. That's the most basic description of what the Christian faith is all about. Religious doctrine came from another source entirely.
Just sayin', bro.
The group most responsible for people not choosing to adopt the Christian faith are those who are sitting in the pews religiously, imo.
*ShruG*
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Originally posted by Arlo
The group most responsible for people not choosing to adopt the Christian faith are those who are sitting in the pews religiously, imo.
A line worth a thousand words.
btw, shoot me an email arlo, dchesney@ou.edu I haven't been able to get in touch with anyone in the squad.. its like my IP is banned from squad board, and my e-mail keeps getting returned when I try to email anyone.
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Hey Munkii, I notice you're in OKC. I'm imprisoned in Lawton, if you're ever down this way shoot me a message and I'll buy ya a beer.
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If I'm ever down in Lawton I'll look you up, but I'd more than likely be trying to get out as fast as I could :aok Not much here in Oklahoma, maybe that's why its appealing at times.
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Originally posted by Munkii
btw, shoot me an email arlo, dchesney@ou.edu I haven't been able to get in touch with anyone in the squad.. its like my IP is banned from squad board, and my e-mail keeps getting returned when I try to email anyone.
Will do. Been missing your presense and wondering what happened.
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For the "Intellectuals" ? :
http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml
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Originally posted by Sundowner
For the "Intellectuals" ?
Does anyone else see any irony in the above?
Someone else had something to say on the subject that I found rather insightful:
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
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http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm
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The Christian concept of a god--the god as the patron of the sick, the god as a spinner of cobwebs, the god as a spirit--is one of the most corrupt concepts that has ever been set up in the world: it probably touches low-water mark in the ebbing evolution of the god-type. God degenerated into the contradiction of life. Instead of being its transfiguration and eternal Yea! In him war is declared on life, on nature, on the will to live! God becomes the formula for every slander upon the "here and now," and for every lie about the "beyond"! In him nothingness is deified, and the will to nothingness is made holy! . . .
62
--With this I come to a conclusion and pronounce my judgment. I condemn Christianity; I bring against the Christian church the most terrible of all the accusations that an accuser has ever had in his mouth. It is, to me, the greatest of all imaginable corruptions; it seeks to work the ultimate corruption, the worst possible corruption. The Christian church has left nothing untouched by its depravity; it has turned every value into worthlessness, and every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul. Let any one dare to speak to me of its "humanitarian" blessings! Its deepest necessities range it against any effort to abolish distress; it lives by distress; it creates distress to make itself immortal. . . . For example, the worm of sin: it was the church that first enriched mankind with this misery!--The "equality of souls before God"--this fraud, this pretext for the rancunes of all the base-minded--this explosive concept, ending in revolution, the modern idea, and the notion of overthrowing the whole social order--this is Christian dynamite. . . . The "humanitarian" blessings of Christianity forsooth! To breed out of humanitas a self-contradiction, an art of self-pollution, a will to lie at any price, an aversion and contempt for all good and honest instincts! All this, to me, is the "humanitarianism" of Christianity!--Parasitism as the only practice of the church; with its anaemic and "holy" ideals, sucking all the blood, all the love, all the hope out of life; the beyond as the will to deny all reality; the cross as the distinguishing mark of the most subterranean conspiracy ever heard of,--against health, beauty, well-being, intellect, kindness of soul--against life itself. . . .
This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see. . . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,--I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . . .
And mankind reckons time from the dies nefastus when this fatality befell--from the first day of Christianity!--Why not rather from its last?--From today?--The transvaluation of all values! . . .
THE
END
THE ANTICHRIST
by Friedrich Nietzsche
Asatru
Wotan mit uns!!!
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Design Evidences in the Cosmos
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/design_evidences/designprobabilityupdate1998.shtml?main
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table 3: An Estimate of the Probability for Attaining the Necessary Parameters for Life Support
PARAM.NUM.
PARAMETER
PROBABILITY OF GALAXY, STAR, PLANET, PARAMETER OR MOON FALLING IN REQUIRED RANGE BY CHANCE (WITHOUT DIVINE DESIGN)
PARAM.
1 galaxy size 0.1
2 galaxy type 0.1
3 galaxy location 0.1
4 star location relative to galactic center 0.2
5 star distance from closest spiral arm 0.1
6 z-axis extremes of star's orbit 0.1
7 proximity of solar nebula to a supernova eruption 0.01
8 timing of solar nebula formation relative to supernova eruption 0.01
9 number of stars in system 0.2
10 star birth date 0.2
11 star age 0.4
12 star metallicity 0.05
13 star orbital eccentricity 0.1
14 star's distance from galactic plane 0.1
15 star mass 0.001
16 star luminosity relative to speciation 0.0001
17 star color 0.4
18 H3+ production 0.1
19 supernovae rates & locations 0.01
20 white dwarf binary types, rates, & locations 0.01
21 planetary distance from star 0.001
22 inclination of planetary orbit 0.5
23 axis tilt of planet 0.3
24 rate of change of axial tilt 0.01
25 planetary rotation period 0.1
26 rate of change in planetary rotation period 0.05
27 planetary orbit eccentricity 0.3
28 surface gravity (escape velocity) 0.001
29 tidal force 0.1
30 magnetic field 0.01
31 albedo 0.1
32 density 0.1
33 thickness of crust 0.01
34 oceans-to-continents ratio 0.2
35 rate of change in oceans to continents ratio 0.1
36 global distribution of continents 0.3
37 frequency & extent of ice ages 0.1
38 asteroidal & cometary collision rate 0.1
39 change in asteroidal & cometary collision rates 0.1
40 mass of body colliding with primordial earth 0.002
41 timing of body colliding with primordial earth 0.05
42 rate of change in ast. & comet collision rate 0.1
43 position & mass of Jupiter relative to Earth 0.01
44 major planet eccentricities 0.1
45 major planet orbital instabilities 0.1
46 drift and rate of drift in major planet distances 0.1
47 atmospheric transparency 0.01
48 atmospheric pressure 0.1
49 atmospheric electric discharge rate 0.1
50 atmospheric temperature gradient 0.01
51 carbon dioxide level in atmosphere 0.01
52 oxygen quantity in atmosphere 0.01
53 chlorine quantity in atmosphere 0.1
54 iron quantity in oceans 0.1
55 tropospheric ozone quantity 0.01
56 stratospheric ozone quantity 0.01
57 mesospheric ozone quantity 0.01
58 water vapor level in atmosphere 0.01
59 oxygen to nitrogen ratio in atmosphere 0.1
60 quantity of greenhouse gases in atmosphere 0.01
61 quantity of forest & grass fires 0.01
62 quantity of sea salt aerosols 0.1
63 soil mineralization 0.1
64 quantity of decomposer bacteria in soil 0.01
65 quantity of mycorrhizal fungi in soil 0.01
66 quantity of nitrifying microbes in soil 0.01
67 quantity of soil sulfur 0.1
68 quantity of sulfur in the life planet's core 0.1
69 tectonic activity 0.1
70 rate of decline in tectonic activity 0.1
71 volcanic activity 0.1
72 rate of decline in volcanic activity 0.1
73 viscosity at Earth core boundaries 0.01
74 biomass to minicomet infall ratio 0.01
75 regularity of minicometary infall 0.1
Dependency Factors Estimate: 100,000,000,000.
Longevity Requirements Estimate: .00001
Probability for occurrence of all 75 parameters: approx. 10^ -99
Maximum possible number of planets in universe: approx. 10^ 22
Much less than 1 chance in a hundred thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion exists that even one such planet would occur anywhere in the universe.
-
Originally posted by Batz
THE ANTICHRIST
by Friedrich Nietzsche
It's you. But still .. care to elaborate instead of cutting and pasting Nietzsche as if that really settled the issue? :D
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Drake's equation disagrees with sundowner's post.
Nc = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL
Drake calculator is in the link:
(http://www.planetarysystems.org/drake_equation.html)
I got 40 communicating civilizations in our galaxy alone.
several orders of magnitude above that number if we just include life witout restrictions to intelligence.
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Intresting that you qualified your argument by saying "if there is a God in the christian sense" a Freudian slip indicating a seed of doubt which a true beliver would not posess.
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! wrong answer!!!
Having faith in something doesn't mean that you can claim it as fact for someone else. I was merely allowing that both you and I were in the conversation and your belief is that God does not exist.
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It is up to you to "settle the issue" for yourself. Man created God in his image to explain away the unknown. This is a process you find in all peoples. The Christian concept of God took root with slaves, peasants and the sickly. It gave them false hope and justified their existence as part of "God's Will". When the powerful saw its effect they used it as a tool to secure their will, not Gods. All the while promising a better life they turned toward oppression to keep the faithful inline. Christianity survived on brutality.
Humanity has struggled along with many concepts of God and will struggle along with out him. You can decide for yourself whether to base your life on magical spooks in the sky and faith err wishful thinking.
Sundowner,
Rarity of itself doesn't imply design.
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Originally posted by Steve
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! wrong answer!!!
Having faith in something doesn't mean that you can claim it as fact for someone else. I was merely allowing that both you and I were in the conversation and your belief is that God does not exist.
Bzzzzzzzzz wrong answer.... (cute rhetoric eh? picked that up somewhere) I have never stated that my belief is that God does not exist. You should be more careful.
If one has faith that God exists, then it must follow that one believes it to be a fundamental truth. Truth is not relative.
I have a fundamental belief that the earth exists and that it must exist for you as well no matter what you believe.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
If one has faith is that God exists, then it must follow that one believes it to be a fundamental truth. Truth is not relative.
To believe God does not exist requires faith as well...faith that all matter either always existed or was created out of nothing.
Actually truth is relative.
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To believe God does not exist requires faith as well...faith that all matter either always existed or was created out of nothing.
Absolutely correct.
Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, so Atheism is a faith in and of itself... intresting, yes?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Absolutely correct.
Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, so Atheism is a faith in and of itself... intresting, yes?
It is interesting. How can someone have a faith that rules out the possibility of a God creator when there is no human reasoning that can rule out the possibility?
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....when there is no human reasoning that can rule out the possibility?
So when an Atheist tells you that they have arrived at their belief as a result of logic (like MM O'Hare said) they are quite mistaken.
And truth is not relative, unless you qualify your definition of 'is'.
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Originally posted by beet1e
NO.
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/rockymtn2.jpg)
There is no God.
<-- 6'-1", 217lb, son of Methodist Preacher.
mmm Pantheists of course believe that Nature IS God - not fluffy kind and loving ..just nature....
-
Drake's equation disagrees with sundowner's post.
Nc = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL
ne : number of planets per star that are capable of sustaining life
Question: For each star that has a planetary system, how many planets are capable of sustaining life?
Answer: estimates range from 1 to 2.
This estimate needs to be substantiated.
If factor ne is close to zero then Nc is close to zero.
If factor ne is ZERO then Nc is zreo.
My post above attempts to estimate this factor.
The Drake equation "assumes" a number of planets capable of sustaining life without substantiating that assumption.
The dropdown in the calulator will only go down to .33 for a variable of ne.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So when an Atheist tells you that they have arrived at their belief as a result of logic (like MM O'Hare said) they are quite mistaken.
And truth is not relative, unless you qualify your definition of 'is'.
Ask an atheist to explain how he/she concluded there is no possibility of God.
I want to hear the logic, because my logic tells me that there is no way to rule out God as a plausible choice.
It boils down to a black and white question for me; was all the matter in the universe created or did it always exist. Which one sounds reasonable? Too me, no human can expain either option, yet one option has to be true doesn't it?
-
believing either option requires a leap of faith.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
believing either option requires a leap of faith.
I submit that it requires faith to be an atheist, yet only an open mind to believe it is possible that a God exists.
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Nope.
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I believe there is a God... but It is niether a he or she.. "God" is beyond our comprehension, it is a factor which creates...
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Nope.
excellent argument... you have convinced me you are right... I reverse all my previous positions on the matter.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Ask an atheist to explain how he/she concluded there is no possibility of God.
I want to hear the logic, because my logic tells me that there is no way to rule out God as a plausible choice.
No need! I am perfectly happy with my beliefs/nonbeliefs. I feel no need to convince anyone else to change their point of view. Believe what you want.
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I hope for god, but i dont belive he exists...
As a possibility? everythings possibel...
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Why explain my beliefs? I don't believe there is a god, nor do I believe in any kind of "higher" being nor a higher meaning of life.
Univers was created by big bang, before big bang there were gases. We exist because of chemistry, biology and physics, we're not created by some kind of higher being. No need to explain it further, believe what you want, I don't believe at all.
My god is Kurt Tank.
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but tid bits of wisdom in this Pacino flick:
(http://movies.warnerbros.com/devils/img/photos/1.jpg)
especially the references to lawyers and our "justice" system (http://movies.warnerbros.com/devils/main.html)
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The was no before the big bang... time did not exist, empty space did not exist. nothing.
The Big Bang created matter, energy and the expanding spacetime into which they could exist.
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Univers was created by big bang, before big bang there were gases.
were did these gases come from? if there was nothing to begin with?
Nothingness cannot pack together.
A vacuum has no density.
It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded.
But a total vacuum is the opposite of total density. It is said that the nothingness
got very dense, and that is why it exploded.
There would be no ignition to explode
nothingness. No fire and no match. It could
not be a chemical explosion, for no chemicals existed. It could not be a nuclear
explosion, for there were no atoms!
There is no way to expand it.
How can you expand what isn’t there? Even if that magical
vacuum could somehow be pulled together by gravity, what would then cause the
pile of emptiness to push outward? The "gravity" which brought it
together would keep it from expanding.
Nothingness cannot produce heat.
The intense heat caused by the exploding nothingness is said to have changed
the nothingness into protons, neutrons, and electrons. First, an empty
vacuum in the extreme cold of outer space cannot get hot by itself. Second,
an empty void cannot magically change itself into matter. Third, there
can be no heat without an energy source.
if anyone can prove big bang is true,,you can go collect a million dollars,,but you need absolute proof,,which is impossible to prove
http://www.us.net/life/index.htm go here and collect your money and if anyone gets the money,,buy me a beer:)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Univers was created by big bang, before big bang there were gases.
How did the gases get there? Only two options: either the "gases" (matter) created themselves or they always existed.
Which do you think?
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*sigh*
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I am convinced that God's main concern is man's spiritual development. Evil exists because many people have looked upon the Ten Commandments as the Ten Suggestions. What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" do we not understand? He has given us all of the guidelines we need to bring evil under control. I firmly believe that, whether an actual Hell exists or not, we will all be held accountable for the evil that we do.
As for the doubts that many have about whether or not God exists, I can only offer my own hypothesis, whic I have no way of proving.
Some years back, advances in the sciences of astronomy and physics had indicated that the universe created by the big bang was an open universe, meaning that it would go on endlessly expanding, until even atoms would be unable to remain cohesive, ultimately flying apart, leading to entropy and the universe winking out of existence. According to the theories of the time, our universe was an accident that would not be repeated. This gloomy end to the cosmos suggested to some that there could be no all-powerful God.
Our knowledge has continued to grow, however, and our theories to evolve. Allen Guth's "inflationary theory" of the universe, and variations thereof, as well as newer theoretical models of the creation of the universe, seem to suggest that the big bang is not a singular event. Guth's theories are almost "universally" accepted these days. He has stated that the universe sprang into existence from such a tiny point (one billionth the size of an electron) that it was conceivable that the event could have been artificial, that is "created."
A more recent theory of universal creation is contained in the last issue of Discover magazine. This theory postulates that the big bang endlessly repeats itself because of the existence of a "shadow universe" that collides with our own, over and over again, creating a new universe each time it does so.
This opens up some interesting possibilities. If the universe is constantly recreating itself, that means that time has no end. The life of our universe can then be described as a single drop of water in an endless ocean. Thus we come to my hypothesis:
1. Life constantly builds and evolves UPWARD.
2. Given enough time all things that are possibly, even if only remotely, become probable.
3. With the passage of enough time, all things that are probable, become iron-clad certainties.
4. If life constantly builds upward, eventually it may evolve beyond death and evil.
5. Ergo, I believe God is the ultimate expression of life. Through his vast experience with the nature of mortal creatures, he has come to the conclusion that it is best to interfere as little as possible in our affairs.
As I said, I can't prove any of this. However, it makes as much sense as some of the stuff I have heard on these boards.
Interested in hearing your thoughts.
Regards, Shuckins
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Possible? Sure. UFOs visiting this planet with aliens that can make themselves look like us while slowly destroying mankind in massive wars is also possible.
Anything you don't understand or have an answer for is possible.
-SW
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Originally posted by hyena426
were did these gases come from? if there was nothing to begin with?
There were no gases, there was no empty space, there was no time in which to exist "before" the Big Bang as there was no before in which to exist.
A vacuum has no density.
Not true... a perfect vacuum has a perfectly valid density of zero Kg/M3
It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded.
Nope, it exploded due to a quantum event. There was no density prior to the explosion, due to the theory that there was no before at all and no matter, energy, or empty space either.
An empty void cannot magically change itself into matter.
E=MC2 is as valid for 0=0C2 as it is for any nonzero equivalence. Algebraically it is perfectly acceptable to enter any number spontaneously as long as the equivalence is maintained.
To look at it another way, if my bank account were the primordial universe, I could take out a loan and spend money. But as my debt equals my resourses, my net worth is zero, so I theoretcally have no money, and yet I can still spend it.
The theory is more bizarre than you realize
if anyone can prove big bang is true,,you can go collect a million dollars,,but you need absolute proof, which is impossible to prove
http://www.us.net/life/index.htm go here and collect your money and if anyone gets the money,,buy me a beer:)
The prize is actually for the origin for life, not the Big Bang. They wish to discredit the lightning in a bottle experiments, said to have produced nucleotides necessary for the formation of DNA. Many other scientists are working on life origin experiments, and many show promise.
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THIS is why I always hated philosophy courses, they all struck me as a buncha rich athiests who lay about all day and pontificate about stuff which cannot factualy EVER be proven or disproven..."is the tree there?"..."if im not here..is it STILL there"?..."if my wife isnt *****ing at me for playin AH does she still exist"?.....
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bj229,
How is that different from what a priest does?
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So in steping away from cold science and philosophy and back into the area of faith. Abraham was asked to kill his only son, by God according to the bible. Would you of good faith, terminate your own son if asked by God?
Jesus comes along later in the bible.
Me, I would have serious problems with that. Thats my answer.
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It's at times like these that I'm reminded off the old movies and books that depict futuristic views of our 'advanced' society.
I understand the implied foundations from these works...that once work, strife, hunger, etc are wiped out we will be left to advance in art, science, etc.
Think of today. We don't have to toil from dawn to dusk and what do we do with the extra time alotted? We watch TV and read the internet. Hardly advancing in terms of those 'futuristic' shows.
I am willing to bet that we as a species, given that if we didn't have to toil at all, would die out due to malnutrition, apathy, obesity, heart desease, murder, drug overdose or just plain 'ole suicide.
Where is God now?
P.S. I have a theory that societies that are in strife need God more than those without. Maybe we are the next Romans to be wiped out. Remember that the world is over 280 millions years old...the U.S. is only in the realm of hundreds of years old.
Have a good day.
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I was reluctant to enter into this very much as I figured it would be taken facetiously. I am gratified to see it is a good discussion.
to those keeping it civil.
I learned something tonight. I was under the impression that an agnostic believed that all religions had as much validity as any other. I guess I was wrong in that opinion. Thanks for the definitions guys.
My personal beliefs are thus: I do believe in a God. Not the jealous one or the one who needs our sacharine sweet devotions towards him, but a God that has no problem setting what we call natural laws in motion. Including the "big bang".
I do not believe in a biblical creation but have no problem in believing that God used a process consistant with nature and physics. After all, if you believe in a diety creating the universe why do you feel he was limited to 6 earth days to do so. How long are God's days after all? Perhaps His days are our geologic ages. I don't know but don't doubt that He could use those processes we are figuring out on our own now.
I do not believe in the version of heaven with the harps and white robes. I certainly hope it is more mentally engaging than that or eternity would be rather boring to me.
I do not believe in the bible as the unadulterated actual word by word transcription of the Almighty. It's been edited several times throughout history. Does it make a good guide for living? Yes it does. Could it have been inspired by God? Possibly if not probably, it all depends on if you want to believe it is or not.
There's that nasty word belief. It is an expression of faith, another nasty word not necessarily predicated on logic. You either believe or disbelieve and there are no real third choices on this issue. Either way until you die, you must take either choice as an act of faith since no one comes back from the dead to say otherwise. Please do not think I disbelieve in the Christ story, I do not. My personal beliefs allow that to be possible.
I do believe that God has allowed us to roam on our own and exercise "free will" in our lives. I do not believe in everything being preordaned by an omniscient diety. What would be the purpose of that in his plan??? If you already know EVERYTHING, why bother doing the "experiment". Since He would be the judge and creator it would be a waste of His time.
I also believe that we all have a certain amount of time on this ball of dirt based on whatever choices we make. The time, up to a point, is up to us. Choose wisely and you live to a ripe old age. Choose poorly and you can die young. Choices can also be removed from those who are incapable of making decision by others in their acts that involve people.
I do believe in good and evil. I have witnessed evil many times in my career and have been priveleged to be with good people as well. Not all of them were religious either.
I belive that God is not a one dimensional being that requires we all believe the same way and worship the same way. Since there are differences in people I cannot fathom that a diety that faith says created us in His immage, would be so narrow that only a select specific few, LUCKY enough to be born in the right spot with the right environment, could attain heaven and coexistance with God. Whichever way you take to Him that allows you to accept Him is the way you wil be most comfortable. There's that nasty faith thing again. The converse is that you are also free to deny Him and take another path of your choosing.
That's my position on this issue. It's not all "fleshed out" yet but then I'm not done with this existance either (I hope) and can make modifications to it as I am "inspired" to do so.
Please note that I am NOT being disrespectful of others beliefs in their own religions, particularly the "organized" religions. For those folks, their beliefs are just as valid as mine are to me.
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Reading up on the history of the christian church is quite interesting. It is hard to take any of it seriously after studying neo-platonic theory and Augustin.
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
So in steping away from cold science and philosophy and back into the area of faith. Abraham was asked to kill his only son, by God according to the bible. Would you of good faith, terminate your own son if asked by God?
Jesus comes along later in the bible.
Me, I would have serious problems with that. Thats my answer.
Jehovah is a jealous and petty god (and no, I don't believe in him).
I think belief isn't a choice at all. You either do or you do not. Sure, you can desire the belief and work towards it, but it's not something you can turn on or off with the force of will. I tried to be a christian... went at it for almost a decade and the belief never came. I just couldn't buy it. I am an atheist because it's the honest thing for me to be at this point.
If it's what gets you through the day, good on ya.
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Well said Maveric (though I agree with the latter part more in what you wrote), coming from a cop you have alot of real world experience I bet. I've read the bible, did so when I was a teenager. I admit it was sometimes boring and I did skip a bunch of chapters in th middle. It still confuses me and I find it the most abstract work of writing that I know of (Im ignorant to many other religions). Though I did take from it that there are alot of great lessons to be learned from it. Compared to the lives of some people, its a tame lesson in life . To others, it may be a harsh lesson. One of the lessons is that each man will find his god in many different ways. For some, its to the mountains, for others its to the dessert, and for some as a slave, etc... I was raised as Lutheran but could not say that I am one today. My own ideas on God are a bit more relaxed and less fixed than the average organized form of religion. I do respect the bible though as I respect all forms of religion. I personally do believe that there is a god but I keep my own definition of that very private to myself.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The was no before the big bang... time did not exist, empty space did not exist. nothing.
The Big Bang created matter, energy and the expanding spacetime into which they could exist.
Interesting point of view. How long ago was the BB? If you can write down the year relative to our AD calendar, I can write down the number of the year before that... BB was an event. All events are linked to the time when they occurred. You said yourself "there was no before the big bang" But it occurred at a point in time, and therefore there was a point in time before that.
I cannot comment on space. It is infinite. I don't think that the human mind will ever be able to fully comprehend this.
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Beetle from his logic, the big bang might as well = God, since he is saying the big bang created everything.
Beet1e you stated very closely what I have been saying for years and years.....since highschool regarding the events preceding the big bang.
edit: I used to refer to the time before the BB as "negative time" in a joking way while arguing with a friend about how dumb the BB theory was, during highschool. My friend ended up becoming as theologian and later, a minister. He told me years later that the discussions we had and my arguments were the main reasons he started to look down that path.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Interesting point of view. How long ago was the BB? If you can write down the year relative to our AD calendar, I can write down the number of the year before that... BB was an event. All events are linked to the time when they occurred. You said yourself "there was no before the big bang" But it occurred at a point in time, and therefore there was a point in time before that.
I cannot comment on space. It is infinite. I don't think that the human mind will ever be able to fully comprehend this.
Theory says the universe is about 15 billion years old.
You can say 16 billion, but according to the theory it does not mean anything as time started when space started. The theory says there was a true beginning of time.
We observe a 4 recognizable dimensional universe, three physical and the one temporal dimension. All four obvious dimensions, along with the 6 other curled up physical dimensions according to string theory, started in the bang.
Time stops on a photon and time stops due to the intense gravity inside a black hole so why can’t it stop at the beginning of time? If there is a beginning of time, how can there be a before the beginning of time?
By the way, the theory says that space is not infinite…. It is boundless but finite; much like the surface of the earth has no edge but a known area, space has no edge but is finite in its volume.
The concept of nothing may be even harder to comprehend than infinity.
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I believe the cosmos was created with intent and for a reason, by what and why I am still struggling with.
The big bang was nothing more than an accident in a laboratory of an unknown species which existed in an universe before the big bang happened. Some scientists made some experiments with materie and anti-materie (sorry, i dont know the translation for that), and something went wrong.
the idea of one single god is nothing else than a desperate attempt of a growing civilisation to explain certain unexplainable
things.
Still nowadays we have several gods in use. Depending to the different cultures.
We are not far away from stone-age. As long as mankind is making war in the name of a god, god is nothing more than evil.
Barbarians we are, as long as we believe in god.
Ecke
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Holden, interesting...
I've seen TV programmes about that black hole stuff, and it is indeed mind boggling.
As for space being of finite volume, what is beyond that finite volume? If the answer is "nothing", does that mean that there is nothing beyond it, or that there simply isn't a "beyond"?
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I think the closest we can come to understanding that concept is that there is not a beyond.
However as humans, we would probably envision empty nothing outside the bubble that is our universe. We would envision being able to pierce the membrane which would be the boundary but there is no boundary to pass.
Everything that we can witness is within the universe, and being part of the universe, we cannot escape to any conceivable beyond.
Outside the universe would not have any dimension, no spacetime... less than our best concept of nothing.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Jehovah is a jealous and petty god (and no, I don't believe in him).
I think belief isn't a choice at all. You either do or you do not. Sure, you can desire the belief and work towards it, but it's not something you can turn on or off with the force of will. I tried to be a christian... went at it for almost a decade and the belief never came. I just couldn't buy it. I am an atheist because it's the honest thing for me to be at this point.
If it's what gets you through the day, good on ya.
Sandman, how I feel about organized religion is that its a good thing if that is how one chooses to worship his God. I think an organized religion is a tangable way or handle that allows people to better understand, rationalize, and practice/worship in some orderly way with other like minded people what is probably not ultimatly comprehendable by a human being. I dont think christianity or catholicism or hinduism, islam, etc.. are bad.
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
I dont think christianity or catholicism or hinduism, islam, etc.. are bad.
Likewise... I don't believe atheism is bad either. :)
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God and spirituality, Yes...
man-made religion, No
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I believe in the God of the Bible.
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There is a god and I CAN prove it.
And he/she/it/bot runs the internet.
On a day when I am in his favor... my find my porn with out annoying pop up adds and it downloads quickly and I have low ping rates when I play online games.
on a day when I have displeased him I cannot find my porn, pop up adds come up so quickly, I have to pull the power plug on my 3 Ghz computer, hackers and trojans plague my operating system and I get discoed just when I'm about to win the game!
How many of us deny there is a god now?
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
So in steping away from cold science and philosophy and back into the area of faith. Abraham was asked to kill his only son, by God according to the bible. Would you of good faith, terminate your own son if asked by God?
Jesus comes along later in the bible.
Me, I would have serious problems with that. Thats my answer.
Well, you did read the whole story didn't ya? Abraham was ready to sacrifice his son, a son he had waited for until an old man I'll add, and had raised the knife to strike it into his son's heart when he was stopped by God (through an Angel).
Since you then mentioned Jesus, I'll point out that God did not stop the "knife" from his own son's heart but rather made the sacrifice himself for all mankind.
Do I believe in the "possibility" of God? How can I not?
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Denizens of this BBS,
I have noted your views and you will be punished or rewarded accordingly. Because I am omnicient, I knew these would be your views long before you were born.
However, being omipresent, omnipotent and omnicient, I really do not care what you puny creatures think. I have an entire universe to manage. The Manazoids on Betelgeuse IV are on the edge of plantery extinction, I've got a supernova about to happen in Rigel...the list goes on and on. Besides, I spend all my time wondering who created me!
Yours sincerely,
God. (Mrs)
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LOL Ravells! We must have that beer sometime. :D
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:D
miko
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Besides, I spend all my time wondering who created me!
Good point hehe. If god exists who created him? and who created him who created him etc etc...
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Excuse me, maniac. I am a 'her' if only to piss off Lazs. You see because I know everything, I know the punchline to every joke, so I have to make my own up in order to keep my sense of humour. <----And yes.... God spells in British English.
As for you miko....you just *think* you're God. Let not your arguments on this BBS lead you into the ways of arrogance and folly.
As for the rest of you, I know what you're thinking (Rude....she may be at reception, she may be fit, but she's got herpes...don't do it) - because I'm omnicient.
I know where you live (Wilbus, the fires await you...there is no escape, even in your cellar) - because I live there too as I'm omnipresent.
And I don't need viagra...because I'm omnipotent.
love you lots (sorry about the existence of evil)
God (Miss)
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Originally posted by Rude
I believe in the God of the Bible.
And?
Do you follow his rules?
Do you ever think about modesty and forgiving? Or is your believing just a kind of life-style. Like a new carpet?
The bible teaches us all and nothing. Its easy to pick out of the bible (and koran and so on) only that phrases which we like to hear. i.e. an eye for an eye,a tooth for a tooth. And the whole big rest is beeing ignored.
Thank god that there is no god.
He would punish you.
Ecke
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*Ahem* Ecke...
I hope you have a penchant for lightning bolts.
Yours electrically,
God (Ms)
PS... I am a 'she'
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Originally posted by ravells
*Ahem* Ecke...
I hope you have a penchant for lightning bolts.
Yours electrically,
God (Ms)
PS... I am a 'she'
Hello god,
your tricks dont impress nor fear me.
2000years ago, you let your so called 'son' walk over water. You brought back dead men to life. You made blind men see. And let rain mana out of the sky.
I know who you are. You are nothing else than an extraterrestial form of life with a powerfull technology.
Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed....tricky guys from outer space.
I appreciate your attempt to give mankind a powerfull tool (the bible, koran and so on) to civilize ourselfs.
But you failed badly. We are working hard and successfull in destroying this nice planet and killing each other whenever there is an opportunity.You better gave mankind the possibility to use more than just 7-10% of our brain.
Ecke
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your tricks dont impress nor fear me.
Be carefull or mrs God will show you the almighty trick of having the last post on every topic in this forum ;)
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Ecke! I see you online often, and it was an honour to be killed by you when I used to fly as Bish. :D I've really enjoyed your posts in this and other threads. What part of Germany do you live in? I must look you up!
:aok
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That is 'Lady God' to you, Ecke...show some respect!
All of you are my children, including Jesus, but I'm not religiously correct. Mohammed was one of mine as was Bhudda. I just threw them into the mix to keep you humans honest. Sadly, in spite of 3 lessons you still insist on killing each other. What is God to do?
The bible and the Koraan wern't really intentional...they just happened. It was a sort of .. divine doodle...and you used it to kill each other in spite of all the 'love each other' stuff in there. You humans are really stupid.
Sadly, I have not destroyed your planet. You have. I gave you a lovely garden to live in and you insist on wrecking it. As for your brains...well, once you learn to use the other 80% maybe you will learn that living in peace is a much better option.
Yours in hope,
Goddess.
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Originally posted by ravells
humour. <----And yes.... God spells in British English.
It's pretty sad when the English call it British English, shouldn't it say "And yes.... God spells in real English"? :D
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Yes I do....this whole thread was very interesting reading.
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Oh maniac! ask for an easier miracle!
Lady God
p.s. I must go and attend to others now. I hope you do well, humans.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_258_1076372154.jpg)
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Originally posted by Maniac
Good point hehe. If god exists who created him? and who created him who created him etc etc...
Exactly, the most common Christian argument is the universe cannot possibly have either just 'happened' or existed forever. Yet this same logic does not apply to their god.
BTW, saw some stuff recently on random existance. In laymens terms the theory is that stuff can randomly pop into existance, BUT the chances are almost infinitely small. However, time is infinitely long, therefore sooner or later its guaranteed to happen. Hence the big bang and us.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
BTW, saw some stuff recently on random existance. In laymens terms the theory is that stuff can randomly pop into existance, BUT the chances are almost infinitely small. However, time is infinitely long, therefore sooner or later its guaranteed to happen. Hence the big bang and us.
Well with that logic, God would have been gauranteed to happen too.
Basically every argument of science that explains the origin of the universe can be just as effectivley applied as an argument for a God/creator.
That is my point throughout this thread. I never brough religion into the discussion, just a philisophical point of view regarding the possibiltiy of a God who created the universe and ourselves.
to everyone here for a clean thread by the way.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Well with that logic, God would have been gauranteed to happen too
As well as leprechans, minotaurs, the invisible pink unicorn(bless her hooves) and Thor, Hera, Mithra et al and blue microscopic foam eating frogs...
Originally posted by NUKE
Basically every argument of science that explains the origin of the universe can be just as effectivley applied as an argument for a God/creator.
Well and good, it seems it can apply to any nebulous idea if you desire, of course the difference is we KNOW the universe exists. It's a big universe and we're so busy trying to understand it that we still restrict our investigations to things we know are real.
Originally posted by NUKE
That is my point throughout this thread. I never brough religion into the discussion, just a philisophical point of view regarding the possibiltiy of a God who created the universe and ourselves.
Philosophically, you can hide your god in any gap of knowledge that you please, you may need to move him later as we discover and figure out more, but he's safe there for now. Some have even kicked him outside of time and space to avoid having to present evidence for their rantings, strange that, because it seems to me to kick him out of existance into the undefined. His proof for you is your own faith and upbringing and that's fine, you are more than welcome to continue in that vein, even raise your own kids the same. I'm sure you'll extend the same courtesy to me if I don't go along with your baseless concepts though. Please don't pretend that this is, in any way, a justification to trot him out into my boy's sceince class, either.
Booz
The invisible and undetectable are indistiguishable from the non-existant (stolen & rephrased from somewhere)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Ecke!....... What part of Germany do you live in?....
Hallo Beetle,
I live in Berlin since 9 years. Dirty it is and in much places ugly too.
But its also full of history. Especially ww2. Lots of buildings(those which survived) still have these little holes in the walls. Caused by firearms. I also know a bridge where you can see fragments of a panzer grenade sticking in the iron construction. And 3-4 times a year we have 'bomb alarm' when the ones are found which refused to explode in the past.
I lived at the north sea coast before i moved. That is where everyone is greeting with the word 'Moin'. Which means 'morning' as you can guess.
That must be a relict from sailors in the past. Which traded with the close british empire.
Ecke
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Originally posted by Boozer2
As well as leprechans, minotaurs, the invisible pink unicorn(bless her hooves) and Thor, Hera, Mithra et al and blue microscopic foam eating frogs...
it's not my theory, it's a theory that science takes seriusly though.... isn't that funny? People have no problem believing it though..... I guess faith makes them beleive it.
Well and good, it seems it can apply to any nebulous idea if you desire, of course the difference is we KNOW the universe exists. It's a big universe and we're so busy trying to understand it that we still restrict our investigations to things we know are real.
The fact that something caused the universe to come into being isn't a nebulous idea, it's a fact.
What you fail to understand is that I am not talking about religion in any way, shape or form.
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Ecke! I never heard the greeting "Moin". One greeting I heard for the first time in 2003 was "Gruß Gott" <-- that ß didn't look too good, so alternative spelling: Gruss Gott. I actually heard that in Italy! But that part of Italy which used to be Austria, and was given to Italy for their help to Germany in WW1 (I believe, not WW2).
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."
Our Founding Fathers and many of our most famous historical figures firmly believed that our rights could not be preserved if the general population did not believe that they were the gift of the Divine Creator...and that the principles of democracy itself were drawn from the Bible.
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness...The mere politician...ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert?...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail, in exclusion of religious principle."
George Washington
"Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."
Alexis De Tocqueville
"No free government now exists in the world unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country...Its foundations are broad and strong, and deep...It is the purest system of morality, the firmest auxiliary, and only stable support of all human laws."
Supreme Court of Pennsylvania; Updegraph v. the Commonwealth, 1824
"The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."
Calvin Coolidge
Can democracy endure if individual rights are no longer perceived to have a sacred origin? If they are not to be held sacrosanct, can the populous resist the temptation to rewrite them to suit an unbridled and capricious attitude toward morality?
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by NUKE
The fact that something caused the universe to come into being isn't a nebulous idea, it's a fact.
I really try to keep up with the latest research & discoveries as much as the next guy but I missed ever seeing this, can you refer me to where you got this fact? I'd like to read up on it, did it mention any evidence as to what this cause might be?
Booz
The invisible & undetectible are indistiguishable from the non-existant
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Originally posted by Boozer2
I really try to keep up with the latest research & discoveries as much as the next guy but I missed ever seeing this, can you refer me to where you got this fact? I'd like to read up on it, did it mention any evidence as to what this cause might be?
Booz
The invisible & undetectible are indistiguishable from the non-existant
Are you saying you don't believe "something" caused the universe to be created? Maybe you believe the universe always existed? Which one do you believe, because those are your two options.
And the Big Bang Theory implys that the universe was created....by the big bang itself, isn't that convenient?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Are you saying you don't believe "something" caused the universe to be created? Maybe you believe the universe always existed? Which one do you believe, because those are your two options.
I believe I was asking about a "fact" you proferred and where you found it. Are you implying it you can't support it?
And the Big Bang Theory implys that the universe was created....by the big bang itself, isn't that convenient?
Let's just make up something instead eh?
Booz
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Originally posted by Boozer2
I believe I was asking about a "fact" you proferred and where you found it. Are you implying it you can't support it?
Let's just make up something instead eh?
Booz
It is a fact that the universe came into being. What is your exact question regarding that ?
I will boldy state that it is a fact that the universe came into being. Do you still need to ask where I found this?
Now tear my argument apart. I am waiting.
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Originally posted by NUKE
It is a fact that the universe came into being. What is your exact question regarding that ?
I will boldy state that it is a fact that the universe came into being. Do you still need to ask where I found this?
Now tear my argument apart. I am waiting.
As stated there you're ok, you've taken out "something caused"
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... that's pretty much the question... did it just come into being or did something (or someone) cause it to come into being.
:D