Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eddiek on August 21, 2000, 11:06:00 AM
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Mission report: P47 Sweep
While trolling from A32 to A28 with a wingman, I encountered a Spit, about 2.5K higher than us.
We WEP'd and starting gaining speed to deal with this guy.
He came in behind us and we started doing Thach Weave, which did throw him off for a sec. He went for my wingman, after I split-S'd down, then here he came after me.
Nose straight down, from 15K, here we went.
Remembering earlier post and advice from fellow pilots, I let the airspeed climb to over 500, then started a gradual pullout.....leveled at 500' AGL, Spit about 780 yards back and closing....nosed down some, got to 550 IAS, rolled left with ailerons........looked back, there was the Spit, 450 back and closing.
Cut to the chase, I died.
Referring to: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/004784.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/004784.html)
Should not the Spit's ailerons have be too stiff to follow very well?
One of P47's strengths was diving speed......does not work well in here I have found.
Talked with the pilot of the Spit, and found BIGTIME discrepancy in IAS we each saw.
Mine said 550+, his said 440-480......yet he gained on me.......curious physics in play here.
Forget the Spit XIV, you already have it...it is disguised as the Spit IX. Heard the P47 is gonna get "neutered" in the next patch.....seems the big bird is already neutered enough. Fast in level flight once you let it go, average climb, turns reasonably well within it's class, but oh man, try to do the one thing the P47 truly excelled at, and you get nowhere.
Want some input from others who are suspicious of the Spit please. Or even tips on dealing with the damn thing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I dived straight down in my F4uc from 25k.... i mean STRAIGHT nose to the ground down. I reached 600 or so MPH was semi compressed, had to use trim and lowered my gear (promptly riping them off) to get out of the dive. U know what.. that spit followed me all the way down.. pulled up inside my turn and wasted me. he was d1.0 or under the whole dive. wish i had film...
hate spits, love to fly em now aday tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
they got no speed limit
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WarChild
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Where's the Charmin!"
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I suggest you go and spend more time in TA. From your posts it sounds like you need it, as they contain nothing but a whine "why I died"
Spit can't roll at speeds of around 500. Point. I used to fly it a lot to know that anyone in good rolling plane will have no problem escaping me. That leaves me think you didnt roll enough and didnt pull out of his plane of manuever fast enough. Ask any Spit pilot and he tells you the same. So stop blaming the plane and, as I mentioned above, go get some training.
mx22
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Warchild,
In AH gears does nto go down at speeds higher then 200 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If you dive straight down withotu any rolls Spit will catch up with you. Rememeber it compresses long after many other planes do, but it gets stiff to roll (almost impossible) at high speeds so Spit driver can only pull up.
Learn your enemies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
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When I flew the spit, any model of it, I could dive to speeds to which a P-38 would be breaking up and groaning and that Spitfire could still roll AND pull up quite easily.
And MX22, on a dive you dont need to roll to aim, just rudder a bit and play with elevator trim... methinks rudder and trim work way too good at compression speeds as well.
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Originally posted by mx22:
Warchild,
In AH gears does nto go down at speeds higher then 200 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If you dive straight down withotu any rolls Spit will catch up with you. Rememeber it compresses long after many other planes do, but it gets stiff to roll (almost impossible) at high speeds so Spit driver can only pull up.
Learn your enemies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
Weren't the landing gear on the F4Us designed to be used as diving brakes? Or at least made strong enough to help slow the plane at high speeds. I know I've heard this somewhere else. I may be wrong.
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited 08-21-2000).]
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The spit is just a pain in the bellybutton for anyone who isnt flying one. period
Although if they come from high 6 with speed then just break into a hard turn and they rip there wings off almost every time.
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"..he shoots fire out of his eyes and lightning bolts out of his arse..."
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Originally posted by Exile:
Weren't the landing gear on the F4Us designed to be used as diving brakes? Or at least made strong enough to help slow the plane at high speeds. I know I've heard this somewhere else. I may be wrong.
I don't know if they were designed for that or no, but it is a fact that you can't lower gear at speeds higher then 200. If you didn't pull them up before 200, they will brake.
mx22
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Originally posted by mx22:
I don't know if they were designed for that or no, but it is a fact that you can't lower gear at speeds higher then 200. If you didn't pull them up before 200, they will brake.
mx22
It takes 300+ mph to damage F4U landing gear.
EDIT: just did an offline test, and in the F4U-1C, i extended the landing gear at 220 IAS(240TAS) and dove with no gear damage until 400 IAS (420 TAS) where Gear sheared off. I am almost positive this was historicaly accurate.
Hamish!
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 08-21-2000).]
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lol mx22. I suggestion you heed your own advice. You can dirty down a Corsair well above 200.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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AH doesnt have easymode. The Spit serves this propose. When newbi,s ask. I always stick them in this plane. Most immediately improve.
To the whines above, I would add magical guns. the 2 20,s are as good as the 4 on a 1c. And the two 50,s as good as the 6 on a pony.
Even so, I think they should leave them alone. They are the price we need to pay, to get new ppl in the game.
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I fly the spit, the p51, and the p47s. The biggest pain for me to fight in a spit is the p47. I suspect that you are being caught in your dives by a spit pilot who is "cutting the corner" on your dive by diving at a shallower angle than you and aimimg at the area you will have to cross after pulling out of the dive. This way he can dive at a lower speed and still catch you. I try to do this in any plane when chasing in a dive. It is too easy though for the p47 driver to roll away from me in the dive.
I can attest to the fact that in several high alt dogfights with clever p47 drivers, they just pulled the plug when things turned against them and dove away, leaving me standing with my jaw hanging down. There is no way that a spit9 can dive with a 47 given an even start from a slowish turning fight.
When fighting againt 47s low I can not roll with them at all - at any speed. I think that as you gain confidence and experience in your 47 you will start to win more of these encounters.
And let's not forget Chuck Yeager's famous saying, "You fight the man, not the machine". Some people can just do incredible things in any plane - I've lost fights with a few p47 pilots that were just unbelievably good. I don't blame the modeling of the p47s they were flying, I blame their great talent.
I do find it odd that the p47 performs so much better than the f4u-d1 with the same engine (I think?). But I trust HT's flight models.
The p47s are just awesome planes, and I get my best kill streaks flying them. I try never to underestimate them when I fight against them - you just never know who you are up against...
Fluf
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Odd, if Spits are so easy, why did this newbie, Spitfire fan (me) have to switch to 109s to improve my performance?
An example of Spit vs. 109 performance:
On Sunday I flew a single mission before my network crased and denied me Internet access. I took a Spit IX up for a spin, bounce a F4U-1C and made a mistake so he got away. If I'd been flying my usual Bf190G-10 that F4U would've never gotten away, mistake or no. Could I have gotten him in the Spitfire? Yes. The 109 just gives me more room to make mistakes and come out on top. The more room an aircraft gives to make mistakes and still survive or win, the better that aircraft is for newbies. As far as I can tell, the best newbie aircraft is the Bf109G-10.
Bf109G-10 = Easy Mode
You LW fans/anti-Spit folks have way too high an opinion of yourselves. The "I fly a 109, so I'm taking a handicap. That my K/D ratio is this good just means I'm one of the best" attitude is a bunch of bull-honky. You take one of the best fighters in the game and then go on and on about how great you are for taking such a piece of crap up against those horribly overmodeled P-51s and Spitfires.
How come the Spitfire is so overmodeled in every sim that was ever made? 190s and 109s should be able to swat them out of the sky without any difficulty at all, yet they keep making it so its about an even fight. Why?
Sisu
-Karnak
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You can't extend gear at speeds higher then 200 (well 220 as someone above mentioned). If you look at original Warchild post, he said he drops gear to slow him down from dive that means he either somehow drops them at much higher speed or he starts diving with them. Or maybe I simply completely don't understand what he's talking about.
mx22
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Poppy-cock!! I get shot down in the Spit IX as easily as the ME109 G-10.
I've seen a Super Spit pass me on my left, bounce in mid-air and latch on to my six, I seen a Super cannon Hog outclimb my G-10 from level flight, I have seen Out of This World P-47's creep up on my 500 MPH G-10 and kill me from D1.2
As SIM pilots we will always see things like this, even when we know deep down inside that they are unrealistic. Everyone will protect their plane of choice. Just a nature of the game!
My Motto: Just have fun!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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hhhmmmmm.........mx22 started out sounding kinda smart....then blew it with his "landing gear won't go down over 200 IAS".....Corsair landing gear would deploy up to 300IAS.....they were strong enough to be used as a speed brake. Suggest you go the TA and practice what you preach. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Spit pilot told me he was also diving straight down, so he was not cutting any corners. And if you "read" the original post, you will see that I did get the speed up, I did use aileron rolls, and it did not work!
I fly the P47 almost exclusively, and the Spit is the only plane that gives me trouble on a consistent basis.
Have also flown the Spit, did some things in it that ought to be impossible, such as merging with a co-alt F4U, looping all the way over ( and not an "easy" or "lazy" one either....almost totally blacked out on the maneuver) and found myself 800+ yards behind the Corsair....and closing on him too!
This thread was not intended to be a "whine", it was meant to garner feedback and see if anyone else is seeing the planes do remarkable things like that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As an afterthought, mx22, please reread the post?
I clearly gave the speeds as both pilots saw them. You say the Spit rolls poorly at around 500 due to aileron stiffness. Maybe so, but I was watching my speed as I intended to use that against the Spit driver.
My airspeed indicator said 550+, his said 440-480, yet he was dead on my six, not taking a pursuit angle to cut me off, and still closing. Likely a bug in the programming, but it is disheartening to find out that there was that big a difference in indicated speeds.
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 08-21-2000).]
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I have suspected for a long time discrepencies in individual aircraft airspeed indicators in AH.
call it a hunch but I would be interested to see a side by side comparison of different aircraft flying side by side
will their airspeeds say the same thing?
what if they don't?
hopefully I'm wrong
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OK I admit I might be wrong about the landing on F4U, I simply don't fly it.
In regards of Spit, I told you you don't roll enough. Spit compresses at a much higher speed, but it becomes impossible to roll at high speeds too. Go and try both planes in MA. Better go and try catching any rolling P-47 in dive. If pilot knows what he's doing and not simply diving to the ground, you won't be able to kill him unless you'll put some lead into him before he rolls away from you.
mx22
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Yawn sorry Eddiek, but this is the same ole same ole .In my 6 years in flight sims these same issues always arise.
Its never the pilots fault always the sims
Its never a Situational Awareness error its always the flight modeling
Never does a pilot consider even in the remotest neuron in his brain, that he made a miscalculation in the enemys energy state.
I fly the P47 alot and spits are not anymore dangerous than any other plane in the arena that YOU let fly to its strengths.
That holds true for each and every plane in this game.
This week the spit is the public enemy. Next week a pilot might run into a good group of N1K pilots then the campaign for squash the uber N1K starts,then the 190 ect ect ect.
Its getting old
I find i can kill every plane in this game in my P47 I also find I can get killed by every plane in this game in my P47.
And when I die its not the sims fault or the fact my six never got called. Nor is it my teams fault,planes fault bullets fault,clouds fault,runways fault ,acks fault or wingmans fault, the blame is easy to pinpoint and it points to myself.
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Originally posted by eddiek:
My airspeed indicator said 550+, his said 440-480, yet he was dead on my six, not taking a pursuit angle to cut me off, and still closing. Likely a bug in the programming, but it is disheartening to find out that there was that big a difference in indicated speeds.
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 08-21-2000).]
Aren't the speeds in a Spit shown as Kilometers Per Hour and not Miles Per Hour? If so, that would mean there was very large error here as 550mph is approx. 885kph.
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Originally posted by Baddawg:
Yawn sorry Eddiek, but this is the same ole same ole .In my 6 years in flight sims these same issues always arise.
Its never the pilots fault always the sims
Its never a Situational Awareness error its always the flight modeling
Never does a pilot consider even in the remotest neuron in his brain, that he made a miscalculation in the enemys energy state.
I fly the P47 alot and spits are not anymore dangerous than any other plane in the arena that YOU let fly to its strengths.
That holds true for each and every plane in this game.
This week the spit is the public enemy. Next week a pilot might run into a good group of N1K pilots then the campaign for squash the uber N1K starts,then the 190 ect ect ect.
Its getting old
I find i can kill every plane in this game in my P47 I also find I can get killed by every plane in this game in my P47.
And when I die its not the sims fault or the fact my six never got called. Nor is it my teams fault,planes fault bullets fault,clouds fault,runways fault ,acks fault or wingmans fault, the blame is easy to pinpoint and it points to myself.
Amen, well said. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Spat.
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Spit's airspeed is in mph.
But was he reading his indicated or true airspeed and which were you reading?
Sisu
-Karnak
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Let's see.........at 500 feet above the ground, how much difference you gonna see in TAS vs IAS? Not much if any.
Baddawg, you might be right. Maybe I did misjudge his E state......but not likely when we talked immediately afterwards and compared notes.
Put 2 objects in a line, set them on a straight course, have the forward one travel at 550 knots, the rear one at 480 knots, and tell me, will the rear object gain ground on the front object?
Admittedly, I am NOT the best pilot in the game, not even in the upper 100, but like Citabria, I wonder why the huge difference in speeds the pilots were seeing?
At what speed "should" I have began rolling? Tell me, let me practice it and see if it helps.
After 6 years in the online sims, I am sure you have seen a lot of stuff happening. But have you ever considered that maybe people could be right, and the programming off just a tad?
Are not HT and Pyro looking into the P51 FM, and did they not find a flaw that was causing the wings to shear when they should not?
Feel free to flame all you want......but helpful tips would be more useful.
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500ft above ground, how high was the ground above sea level?
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak,
This is a dead argument. Guy made a wrong decision and now everyone and everything is wrong.
mx22
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hi all:
one point not mentioned here yet.
who had the better comp, better FR, and so on, i some times find that to be a factor, maybe i'm wrong.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Odd, if Spits are so easy, why did this newbie, Spitfire fan (me) have to switch to 109s to improve my performance?
An example of Spit vs. 109 performance:
On Sunday I flew a single mission before my network crased and denied me Internet access. I took a Spit IX up for a spin, bounce a F4U-1C and made a mistake so he got away. If I'd been flying my usual Bf190G-10 that F4U would've never gotten away, mistake or no. Could I have gotten him in the Spitfire? Yes. The 109 just gives me more room to make mistakes and come out on top. The more room an aircraft gives to make mistakes and still survive or win, the better that aircraft is for newbies. As far as I can tell, the best newbie aircraft is the Bf109G-10.
Bf109G-10 = Easy Mode
You LW fans/anti-Spit folks have way too high an opinion of yourselves. The "I fly a 109, so I'm taking a handicap. That my K/D ratio is this good just means I'm one of the best" attitude is a bunch of bull-honky. You take one of the best fighters in the game and then go on and on about how great you are for taking such a piece of crap up against those horribly overmodeled P-51s and Spitfires.
How come the Spitfire is so overmodeled in every sim that was ever made? 190s and 109s should be able to swat them out of the sky without any difficulty at all, yet they keep making it so its about an even fight. Why?
Sisu
-Karnak
Karnak this thing is really a double post from the one you put up on the aircraft forum. So I'll give you the EXACT answer I gave you:
(Posted by RAM in Aircraft and Vehicles Forum):
Tour1 : (when I had the one button joke....err...yoke, no rudder pedals and problems to take off as I was a hopeless dweeb)
Query results:
ram has 70 kills and has been killed 75 times in the Spitfire Mk IX
(total K/D rate on ALL planes in Tour1: 0.55aprox...you get the idea)
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Tour2 : (still no rudder pedals,still with yoke, still a dweebish newbie)
Query results:
ram has 65 kills and has been killed 61 times in the Spitfire Mk IX.
(K/D on all planes 1.024, boosted because JG2's teamwork (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), as you see is in my average, and I was only a dweeb)
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Tour3: (got rudder pedals in the start of it and changed definitively to german planeset with some P51 and P38 too):
Query results:
ram has 10 kills and has been killed 14 times in the Spitfire Mk IX.
(K/D ratio in tour3:1.474, rudders made me go up a lot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I recall most of those kills happened same night in base defence. got killed 8 times in a row by the 101 ECV vulching (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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From there onwards:
Tour4: 2kills 0 deaths
Tour5: 1Kill 0 deaths
Tour6: 0kill 0 deaths
Tour7: 0kill 0 deaths.
Total K/D in SpitIX for RAM in all tours:
148kills/150 deaths.
Counting that I flew it when I had no damned idea on how to up from a field and did not know anything about realistic way of flying (this is my first online sim and there is nothing in box sims that is near this),no damned rudders, and a sin of joke, I think it is more than a good K/D ratio,indeed
SpitfireIX is a wonderful plane. In tour1,while I had a 0.5K/D ratio in general, in SpitIX I was near 1. And I was a hopeless dweeb.
I am sure that If I take now a spitIX on a hole tour I'll raise a K/D over 3.5, (now I am at 2.2 and I am quite happy to be true). But I wont do it. I dont like the spitfire as plane and I wont get into one to have a boring time to proof anything.
Ball's on your side, Karnak. Maybe is not the plane... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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BTW When I say that EZmode in AH is represented by SpitfireIX, I assume that you are willing to engage when you see a con, unless there is hopeless odds against you:
Scores on KarnaK:
Kills per sortie: 0.5, Rank 458
Kills per time: 0.007, Rank 511
G10 is the best plane for running. For sure you know to run. Do you know to fight ,karnak? Or you do a bounce or two and run away?.
I remember a night when SpitfireV was just up, in v1.1, defending F20 in the old map.
I kept F20 defended ALONE agaisnt 6 or 7 people of the Pony Express (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (hang was at that time in that squad).
I had a lot of sorties and fights and only died once, when I got surrounded by 6 cons after killing hang's C47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
I did,too,a sortie where I did kill 5 P51s on my own with no help,( I got bounced by ALL at the same time,not one by one), and managed to make hang's P51 to ditch. 6 on one and I won.
I had no rudder pedals still, and I still was a true newbie.I call THAT EZmode. Try that in a G10 and you'll find your skull burned and with a nasty 50cal hole in the middle of it.
Now dont tell me you cant survive in a BnZ environment with a SpitfireIX. With a V is tougher, and I did it when I was a inutil dweeb (With a bunch of luck that is true,too).
This is not intended to be an offensive post,Karnak, I simply say that you seem to pick your fights very carefully on G10...a plane were you have 3 kills 3 deaths...for sure not an EZmode plane, isnt it?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-21-2000).]
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Quick tip if anyone is interested.
DO NOT DIVE STRAIGHT DOWN. Dive about 30 to 45 degrees if your running. Your 47 will easily start to outdistance the spit, gotta be patient though.
p.s. I am curious to maybe an indicater bug. Its been off on some planes before. Maybe Cit is on the right track.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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RAM,
I fight until dead, or low on fuel and ammo. I do not run in a perfectly good airplane. The G-10 simply allows me to climb out of a fight before nosing back in. The Spit stays in the fight, with the aircraft on its tail and dies. Every time I've tried to BnZ in a Spit, my target simply climbs after me and kills me.
It so happens that I do much better in a Bf109G-10 than a Spitfire MkIX. As I'm not very good, according to your theory (and every other LWs theory) I should rack up the kills in the Spit and get slaughtered in the G-10. The fact is that I last longer, get more shots on the enemy and, occasionally, return to base in a G-10. I've NEVER landed a non-German fighter. Every one of my sorties that is listed as a landed was in either a G-10 or A-5.
Tonight I flew 5 sorties and was sot down five times. I flew 3 Spitfire MkIXs, 1 N1K2 and 1 Bf109G-10. Total firing time with the Spitfires was less than 1 second. Total with the NiK2 was 0.0000, not a shot. Total with the Bf109G-10 was about 15 seconds. I got some hits, but no kills.
My personal experience says that the Bf109G-10 is WAY easier than the Spitfire. Your experience obviously is different.
About the running thing. The time you shot me down you will note that I was not running. I shot down 3 bandits and was credited with a 4th that crashed near me before you got me.
If the Spitfire MkIX was THAT good in AH, why doesn't everbody fly Spits and nothing but. The Only Spitfires I saw tonight were the ones that I was sitting in. The planes defending 27 were F4Us, P-38s, B-26s, 109s and 190s.
I'm sick of the anti-Spit fanatics.
RAM, let me put it this way. I'm a Spit fan, but I can't do crap with it in AH. I do alright in a Bf109G-10, a plane I've never been a fan of. Yet despite this, you don't see me whining about the Spit being nerfed or the things that always blow me away when I'm flying a Spit being overmodeled. Yes, I've asked for a newer Spit because I'd like to fly a Spit that I could do alright in. You've told me what you think of that. Fine. But your descriptions of what the Spitfire MkIX does that it couldn't in reality, as well as other peoples descriptions of the same, is sheer BS.
You really think the Spit bit so badly that the Fw out performed it in every way? Thats what your proposed "fixes" would have it do.
You accuse the Yanks of not wanting a challenge and so being nay sayers about the D-9, yet you LWs are the biggest nay sayers of all. You constantly whine about the "poor" performance of every German aircraft and the "great" performance of every allied aircraft. To hear you guys talk, you'd wonder how the Allies ever stood a chance.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 08-21-2000).]
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I disagree RAM,
I think there are some spit drivers out there that are likely some of the best pilots in AH, because a spit pilot must have much better SA than a 190 or pony or f4u driver, because he is usually low and slow and turning. He can't run away, he has to fight his way out.
Now, make a distinction for sputnikfires, come into the fight at 25k alt, dive on a bandit at 5k, slow down to match his speed at d300 back, and kill him. Obviously this is not the type of pilot i am talking about.
Karnak does not have the time to play as much as we do RAM. I think your insults to him are kinda childish. I, and you, are lucky to have lots of free time (soon not to be me once school starts) to enjoy our hobby. Others don't, and it is silly to make fun of them for it.
O
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I have a tip for karnak. Fly the spit IX like it was a 109. Just because it can turn dosent mean your supposed to. The reason it is easy to kill, is they always seem to be turning, and thereby offering a platform shot to the guy behind them. If there ever was a plane that could cause an overshoot it is the spit.
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Don't forget your "red cap" !!!
Saw
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/lurk.gif)
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Cit
I think you may be on to something because I have come across a lot of the same thing. I put it down to my poor flying but often I have run (and I do a lot of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )and I find a/c that I should be outpacing are staying with me.
Another example - I was in a P38 last night and was chasing a slightly higher Spit (yes I know dumb or what...) but thought I should have the legs on it in max climb. I basically fly Spit or 38 and if I'm right the Spit climbs at about 160 for max climb and the 38 at about 185. At those speeds the 38 outclimbs a Spit at low alt - am I right?
however in this instance I was trued out at 190 IAS, full power, and could not catch him - he either outdragged me or if I put the nose down he outclimbed me - this doesn't seem right. Range was about 1.2k so I was able to keep good tabs on closure rates.
I would be VERY interested in doing some control testing of type verses type in the TA in level, climb and dive.
Sparks
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Originally posted by easymo:
I have a tip for karnak. Fly the spit IX like it was a 109. Just because it can turn dosent mean your supposed to. The reason it is easy to kill, is they always seem to be turning, and thereby offering a platform shot to the guy behind them. If there ever was a plane that could cause an overshoot it is the spit.
Just my point,easymo...SpitfireIX is one of the best E-fighters in this sim, with its E retention and good acceleration at all altitudes.
The fact is-all spitfire drivers turnfight with it,die, all spitfire drivers who E-fight in it, live-. Look at Mitsu.
Zigrat, there was no insult for karnak in my post. I know he has not much time to fly, still when I knew way less about planes and tactics and ACM than him, I raised a 1-1 K/D in spitfire while I had a 0.5 in all the rest.
(he reads ,like me,the Forum boards, where I learned all that, so he now knows much more than I did in January)
Karnak, what you are telling me is that you havent enough SA to keep yourself alive in anything that cant run. You say you have landed a sortie in a 190A5, still you have no kills on it,and many people says that is an easy plane to kill with, but hard to rtb because its low speed.
Planes are for fighting and for earning kills. If you are more aware of saving your skin than burning other's ,then for sure G10 is the best plane, with the mustang,to do it.But if you fly it to FIGHT all the time, then G10 ISNT the best plane to do it.
I fly G10. I CLOSE fight with it. I have saved 3-1 odds with it in CLOSE fights with NO extending from my side ,killing 2 cons and landing after saluting the last (A zero) because I had no fuel.
Still with SPitfires I can hold my own against 3 enemies and with a bit of luck, bring all 3 down. The fact that you cant run with it as with G10 doesnt make G10 an EZplane, the fact that you can do awesome moves and ACMs with it, DOES make Spitfire an EZmode plane.
It is very a forgiving plane in its handling. Go and tell a newbie to up in a g10 in his first fight, and see where he ends,and how many time he spends in the air (if he ever gets there).
Karnak, the time I killed you when you got 3 Kills you were in a N1K2,at deck level, turnfighting with some 7 of us over you. You stayed fighting because you had no choice, as in N1K2 you cant run. In a SpitIX you'd have done exactly the same ,as N1K2 and Spit are comparable Turnfighters. In a G10 you WONT have had a single kill and I'd have killed you anyway while trying to extend (on the deck and surrounded by higher cons, if was not me it would have been other of us).
What I mean is that when you are in a turnfight you seem to have a defect: not knowing when to leave. When you realize you are surrounded, its too late, while in G10 can be still a hope of you escaping. is your SA, karnak, NOT the plane.
Karnak if you want a friend's reccomendation, return to spitfire, climb to 20K and E-fight. Keep your SA up and chose the moment to disengage. Keep a hard deck of 7K to dive if needed, and keep close to friends, so when you disengage they can help you. Develop some personal defensive tactics (I have mines in Fw190A5 and A8) and dont let flying your favorite plane because "they kill you a lot" in it. When I was flying Fw190A8, still with no rudder pedals, how many times do you think I RTB-ed? Still I sticked with my favorite brick...errr...plane, and learned it all I could.
Do the same in the spit, and you'll end loving it. E-fight in it, dont turnfight, and you'll see that your K/D improves and you land your sorties. And dont fly a plane that you dont like. I wont put myself in a spit now, as I dont like it a bit. It must be very boring to go up in a plane you dont like.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-22-2000).]
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RAM that last post was much more constructive than your previous post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm gonna ignore much of the stuff above and make one point. (Assuming you are flying a Jug.)
1. DO NOT dive straight down. You need to do an "unloaded" dive. If you push over or roll and pull into a dive, you are pulling G's to get into the dive and the Spit will eat your lunch. You need to push over gently and keep the G meter at 0 or close to it until you are in a steep dive. Don't dive any steeper than you need to, just keep the G meter on 0 until you get up over 450 MPH or so.
2. If a spit is still hangin' in with you at 500 IAS... roll baby. A quick roll to change direction (works well in a steep dive) and gently pull out in the new direction. If you do this, roll to the left versus a spit, as it will tend to roll right uncontrolleably at high speed. The spit driver can control it with trim, but it is impossible for him to roll left quickly in a high-speed dive.
I LOVE it when spits try to follow my diving jug in a very high speed dive. One good trick is to slowly roll right as you near terminal velocity and the ground. Then... just as the spit thinks he's got you, roll left and pull out at the last possible second. Lots of times the spit will dig a really big hole in the ground as he tries to follow you. Warning: if you try it to early or the SPitter is smart, he won't follow. As long as you are fast enough, you should get enough room to escape at the very least.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
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To add what Leph says, I like to "fake" a roll to the right. If you have plenty of alt and time to work with, roll your plane to the right 45 or 90 degrees, until you see your opponent match your roll, then kick it left and pull out. If they try to follow, they then have to roll 180 degrees in a slow rolling plane. By that time, you're probably above them, looking for a shot. Another thing I've done (but not in awhile) is to roll inverted, and dive, with a slowly increasing (decreasing?) angle. If the slow rolling plane follows you, keep heading down (but don't go past 90 degrees) and build up speed. When you get real close to terra firma, quickly roll and pull out. If you've timed it right, your happless opponent will hopefully be a big crater in the ground, since they are unable to roll upright quickly enough, and don't have enough room for a split s.
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Aegis
The Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
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Thank you, Lephturn!
Finally got a level-headed reply and some tips.
I fly the Jug 95% of the time, and the Spit is the only plane I have any trouble against
(kill/death ratio last nite was 11/10 my Jug against Spit 9).
You still have that website with all the tips on it?
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Lephturn,
exactly what real FW190 pilots did against pursuing Spitfires during WWII (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Every plane that flies against me is overmodeled....
all the planes I fly are undermodeled...
Flying suks...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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Just ran a test on the spit and 47. Both speed gauges are correct.
HiTech
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Zig,
I agree with everything in your post, but maybe one thing.
Why doesn't the spit have a right to fly at 25k like any other plane in the set?
Cobra
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Because they will come down and kill ya Cobra. Who wants that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think the appropriate response to this type of post is.....
WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! I bent my wookie!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mav
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One side note to this i don't think anyone thought about, the spit airspeed indicator doesn't even reach 500 knots. So, if the Spit pilot mentioned in the original post saw 440-480, well that's where his needle "pegs" so couldn't he have been going faster?
my $.02
Hamish!
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Hamish the spit and tiffie speed indicators are in knots <G> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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THERE ARE NO KNOTS IN AH.
GRRR!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
All AH speed indicators are in mph.
The only people that used knots in WW2 were the US Navy. All other aircraft were mph or km/h.
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Allways thought spitfire Speed indicator was in knots...
If not, then I've done incredible things at only 100mph!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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47 compresses at mach 0.7 - 0.8
Spit compresses at mac 0.9 +
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Originally posted by mx22:
I suggest you go and spend more time in TA. From your posts it sounds like you need it, as they contain nothing but a whine "why I died"
Spit can't roll at speeds of around 500. Point. I used to fly it a lot to know that anyone in good rolling plane will have no problem escaping me. That leaves me think you didnt roll enough and didnt pull out of his plane of manuever fast enough. Ask any Spit pilot and he tells you the same. So stop blaming the plane and, as I mentioned above, go get some training.
OH MY All I got to say to that is: Rodeo!!!! (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/Stupidest.wav)
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Bandits on my 6!!! (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/goose2.ra)
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[This message has been edited by milnko (edited 08-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by hitech:
Just ran a test on the spit and 47. Both speed gauges are correct.
HiTech
Is that just the white needle, or the red TAS marker as well?
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milnko,
Comments are always welcome (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Btw, that wav won't open online for me for some reason. Had to download it...
mx22
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From my readings the spit had a very high top speed in a dive compared to most planes, excluding the mk1 which became hard to control due to fabric on the control surfaces billowing at high speeds.
From Eric Brown, _Wings of the Luftwaffe_, and various NACA reports:
Spitfire: "maximum safe" .83, terminal velocity dive ~ .86 [M=.92 in an uncontrolled dive] Me 262: "tactical" .82, "maximum safe" .83-.84 Ar 234: "tactical" .75
Meteor I: pitchup above M = .80
P-51B: drag divergence M = .67
Vampire: .74
P-47: .69
F2FA-2: .66
P-39: .675
TS