Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Am0n on December 10, 2001, 11:08:00 AM
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Would anyone be intrested if there was some type of system in AH that would make one think twice about death? someting besides the flight back to the fight.
I strongly feal it is one the key elements that the game is missing. It could increase the enjoyability in the MA tremendously if enemies thought twice about blowing all of there e for a chance at killing you, because 9 times out of 10 when this happens they die 2 seconds later.
There are other scenrios where this would apply also, such as risking taking off from a capped base, would increase winging and team play and make furballing truely for the elite and not just some tin horn who flies around over agressive maybe landing a kill and dies.
I think it could really do some good, as of now this is simply a death match sim, for WWII fighters of course. If you agree what do you think should be implimented to make one want to survive the fight? This game has awesomely modeled AC, very good back bone but its lacking in this area tremendously.
One thought that i had was if you died, or bail in enemy territory and are captured or ditch in enemy territory you loose all credit for the kills and perks, since in "virtual/realality" you are dead.
So if you fly out kill 4 people and die you loose all credit for the kills, not just perks. I say this because scores and ranks seems to be the driving force here..
Sorry for the long post :)
<S>AH
Amon
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I believe that real WWII pilots were given credit for their kills even if they didn't return. I realize that this is a gameplay issue and leaving realism out of the equation... I still think that encouraging timid gameplay would/does cause most of the gangbanging and ack hugging.
A lot of guys simply don't care about score and they are the ones that don't post or even read this board.
I personally would like to be able to read someones K/D and know that it was accurate and not "adjusted" for gameplay reasons. Perhaps 2 K/D stats... one phony one for gameplay and one accurate one?
lazs
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This proposal is exclusionary by nature; you are eliminating a form of play (or attempting to). Though this may be fun for YOU, it will not be fun for many. Wait for the lazs response to see what I mean... ;)
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not trying to do anything but get some opinions.. I like AH, but i dont like death match gaming.
Death match got boring after Doom.
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IMO it would decrease gangbanging lazs, simply because one would not want to go out a lone if they feared death, wouldnt you thin that?
Ive personaly never seen a problem with ACK runners, yes i'll call them names, talk smack but its a great tactical advantage to fighting at your base.
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This system would be horrible for gameplay. Why do we need a penalty for dying? It would only increase the already high amount of alt-monkeys and runners in the MA.
IMO of course.
J_A_B
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JAB
So you think there should not be a penataly for dieing, but a reward for surviving? Or you do not care less?
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amon.. think about it. The reason people are not venturing out to other fields unless they are in a horde (gangbanging) is because of fear of death.. The reason they are staying close to their own ack is... fear of death.
you wish to increase fear of death and at the same time ack hugging and gangbanging while doing nothing to stop those who would respawn endlessly since they do not care now, nor would they care under your system. all you would do is make the stats inaccurate while at the same time ruining gameplay.
so no... I don't think it is a good idea to ruin gameplay and make the stats phony and useless just so that a very few guys can say... "see, I don't suck so bad when you look at it this way".
lazs
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Im asking if anyone would be intrested in a system that promoted surviving the fight, not my system. That was just an example i thought of while typing up the post.
Are we all (the BBS folks) intrested in DM or flight sim?
my self i like the flight sim
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ah, "death match or flight sim"... getting a little self rightious now tho eh? As I pointed out... I don't believe encouraging gangbanging or timidity is a good thing for a flight sim.
you claim to want a flight sim but it appears that the only thing that is imprortant to you (simulated) is flying to live. You seem to assume that surviving was the most important thing to WWII pilots and that "simulating" that timidity is the only real way.
I would claim that no one would have climbed into a belly turrent if "survivability" was the overriding factor nor, would they have dove into a group of 40 enemy planes or signed on at all for the battle of britan or dove "divine wind" into carriers.
lazs
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After death a 30 second spawn delay... Time to catch your breath, dowse your anger, have a pee break, drink a beer, do anti RSI excersise and then re-up.
Since 'normal' flights last at least 10-15 minutes, this 30 seconds is no loss but it would prevent dweebs from ultra spawning from vulched fields and not getting those 30 mm messages they get all the time :)
Broes
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A reward for survival, like the current perk bonus, is perfectly fine. This does not have any negative implications.
A penalty for dying, however, would have nasty negative effects.
J_A_B
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Broes
Although i appreiticate some postitive imput for a change i do humblely disagree that, that would have any effect on game play. If in the moment of truth, you got someone low, would that make you think twice about blowing all your E to chase him down near his base with a huge risk of death? I would think not. Or i should say i wouldnt mind waiting an extra 30 seconds to have the 2 seconds of fame, perks and credit for the kill.
It would indeed detour people from upping instantly after death as you stated though. Which in its self is a good thing, but not in this scenerio.
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JAB
Any ideas for a bonus for surviving the fight?
Personaly, the thought of getting a bonus for survival wouldnt effect my play, simply because perks and kills dont mean much to me. Maybe if there was another bonus, one i dont know of, that would inspire me to stay alive and fight smart.
Although It would make me think twice about chasing someone down and blowing my E if i new that if i died i wasnt going to get credit for the kill or even perks for it, if i was killed. But i understand that some could not accept that as inspiration to stay a live.
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Well, in AW the system was as follows:
If you killed a plane, you got X points (around 200). If you landed, you got 4X points (around 800). If you landed the NEXT flight, it increased it by about 25%, so if you landed a kill on a second consecutive flight the base points would be about 1000, then up to about 1250 on the third flight, and so on. If you got a long kill streak without being killed you could really rake in the points.
AW also gave a bonus for killing planes over enemy territory as opposed to staying in friendly territory, and another bonus for killing multiple planes on a single mission (for example landing 1 kill might get you 800 points, but landing 5 would net you about 6000 points).
Score was totally worthless in AW, but in AH a similar system may work well with the perk system.
And all that without penalizing those who died a lot.
Another thing AH could do would be to "award" a free perk plane to someone who landed a certain number of kills with 0 deaths.
Or perhaps create a small but REAL award for the pilot who has the highest K/D at the end of a tour (of course with a required minimum number of kills), something like you get to pick the map for the first week of the next campaign.
Or omething minor, like add "Ace" in fromt of a person's handle who maintains a certain K/D. Some tangible reward, but nothing so major as to effect the game for people who don't CARE about points.
There's a lot of things you can do to create an incentive for survival without having to negatively impact the game. What you have to be careful of avoiding is altering the gameplay to the point where everyone is afraid to get killed, otherwise the game turns into a bunch of altmonkeys chasing each other around.
J_A_B
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In the MA or CT... Absolutely not. Death penalties would have serious implications on gameplay for everyone.
Play the special events if you want to play with your one virtual life. It's a lot of fun, much more so than the arenas.
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Yea they are Nifty, i fly in TOD every friday.
As i stated..
Originally posted by Am0n:
Im asking if anyone would be intrested in a system that promoted surviving the fight, not my system. That was just an example i thought of while typing up the post.
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You should get no perkies for the sortie if you dont return home (land or ditch/bail in friendly territory).
For those that dont care about perks? Well, they will be facing those like them who dont care or be facing those with perk planes which did care. Fair deal imo.
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All I mean is this, AmOn- I don't care about points. If I decide to chase a particular person into the ack, I will. The point system will not prevent me from doing what I wish at that particular moment. OTOH, if this proposal has the slightest possibility of running people out of the arena, it is a bad idea.
In short, the very people you are trying to impact couldn't care less about the points for the most part. I also wonder why you can't do what you want already? :confused:
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Dyin Sucks!
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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I am sorry, but you of the death-is-undermodelled crowd will have to go to the back of the line.
Those in the la-7-should-be-perked crowd, f4u-1c-should-be-unperked crowd, if-the-f4u-1c-is-unperked-it-ought-to-be-reperked crowd, every-plane-but-my-plane-should-be-perked crowd, the game-is-historically-inaccurate-because-I-cannot-duplicate-the-exploites-of-<insert-famous-ace-of-any-nationality-here> crowd, all-Luftwaffe-planes-are-undermodelled crowd, I-got-shot-down-and-its-obviously-the-result-of-a-fault-in-the-game crowd, make-AH-more-like-some-defunct-game crowd, the HOing-is-so-evil-that-I-support-the-implementation-of-forward-deflection-shields crowd and the you-jerks-in-this-community-just-don't-understand crowd have all been waiting for service for some time now :D
Put me in the death match column.
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Or perhaps create a small but REAL award for the pilot who has the highest K/D at the end of a tour (of course with a required minimum number of kills), something like you get to pick the map for the first week of the next campaign.
J_A_B
Anything of this nature is not acceptable IMO...since some people have the oportunity to fly well over 100 hours per TOD. This goes along with the misconception that the top scorers in AH are the best pilots...It just aint so!
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About the only circumstances I show remorse over an death online is when the bastidge just plain pops and doesn't give me a fair chance at nailing them hanging in the silk.
SHOOT THE CHUTE!!!
Westy
(obligatory dumb topic hijack)
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lol lance how long did it take to type that? :)
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You guys all crack me up, im laughing my bellybutton off.
very few want to have a intelligent conversation. The "dumb topic" you didnt have to respond to, im looking for those who care to add some spice to the game, the rest of you i could care less your opinions.
Im not trying to change your game, dont want anything for that matter. I simply just ask what could add the fealing of "i must survive this sortie", or do you people care to survive? if you dont care to live that is fine with me as well, death match is for you.
There is no need to flame my post, if you dont agree thats great im glad you can think for your self. I never once lashed out and said how much "AH sucks", "this must change now" or anything to that effect. As a matter of fact i love this game. But there is some things that i think could use some tweaking to make game play more enjoyable, you may think otherwise which i respect totaly.
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Heh..Amon Lance is a fast typer..
We have seen topics like this in the past and it comes down to the individual. Some don't care, some do care, and some "sometimes" care.
It really matters NOT to most. I personally will fly to fight..then die. Then I fly again..die etc. I am not wanting to see changes so that it penalizes me for engaging and enemy and losing.
As for taking off of capped fields. Drop the hangers and that problem is no longer. Lately many people are focusing on the city...mena while all hangers are untouched and planes/vehicles are spawning like mad.
I don't see it as a problem.
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as goofy as the rank system was in FA, we all strived to be generals :)
Living should be rewarded, kill streaks too. At least with the asteriks(sp) by the icons, I'd know which niks to avoid :)
One small change should be that your kill streak shouldn't start over just because you hop to another airfield. It should follow you as long as you continue to have safe landings.
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I feel remorse after killing a newbie that I can see is taking his first steps in the flightsims. Sometimes I feel bad to give them the disappointment of being shot down.
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oh well, that passes.. At least then when the newbie shoots me down. That won't take long. Actually I never shoot down newbies, I'm scared of them. They harass me!
Too much AH.
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AmOn, could it be the only conversation you care to deem intelligent is that which agrees with you?
I heard your suggestion. You want some form of reward for living. Great, happy for you. You have that already in the perk multiplier.
You mentioned your distaste for people who defy the consequences of death by heading into enemy ack or dogfight near an enemy base. Fine. Don't do it if you don't like that type of play. Simple, see?
You mentioned having a low con, and "...It would make me think twice about chasing someone down and blowing my E if i new that if i died i wasnt going to get credit for the kill or even perks for it, if i was killed. But i understand that some could not accept that as inspiration to stay a live." The suggestion you mentioned is a penalty for not doing things the way you prefer they be done, pure and simple. This I always disagree with, regardless from whom I hear it.
Your problem is you want an incentive to stay alive in a fight. My problem is you want to drag me into your solution, despite my desire to do otherwise. If you can derive a solution that doesn't penalize me in the process, go for it, I'll support you. If you want to dictate how I fly, I say forget it.
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Skernsk
I fly strait to the largest group of enemies and friendlies i can find, come in around 10k if im in my jug, hellcat, or zero (lower normaly in this AC). I to fly to fight and die if need be, im extremely agressive when i fly. To die for me is a chance to smoke a cig, drink a beer or hit my bong a few times. So most of the times, death isnt so bad.
But then theres also times when i will take time getting to a fight, comming in at 20k+ and taking my time in attacking a target, not just going balls to the wall bouncing them left and right.
so i can play both sides of the spectrum with out saying "my ways the best way" and never knowing what its like to play the other side. (furballer vrs surival fighter)
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Maybe a noticable reward for suriving the sortie is a good idea, i thought the fear of loss of credit would do the trick but i see some dont want such extremes. Probably because they realize that they would loose half there kills if they done it intelligently and didnt die seconds later.
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Some people already do that, just look at Ypsilon. It seems he plays only for k/d - which is exactly what you seem to want.
If hanging at alt, never taking risks, letting your countrymen die below you - style of playing is your bag, go for it.
However I'm sure most of the players want to take chances and have fights against the odds. It tends to be more fun if you relax a little.
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AmOn-
Come on, who isn't conducting intelligent conversation now?
You are thinking of yourself; I am talking about something that must be viewed from the larger perspective, i.e. the impact it could have on the player base. If your idea (or any form of what you have suggested) is implemented you will cause people to leave. Will you bring more people in with it than leave? I don't know, but it isn't my business that lives or dies on such decisions.
I challenge you to propose a solution that is not penalty-oriented. That would be a win-win situation, wouldn't it?
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Heh..Amon you sound pissed at me. Hit the bong real quick and settle down.
I am saying that "some" people fly to live and "some" people could care less.
Then I made a mistake and said I fly to fight and yes I sometimes make it back, but every mission to me is a one way mission :) If I run outta ammo and still have fuel I'll RTB, or perhaps I'll just fly the sucker into the ground.
NOW,
If you can make your idea work, where it rewards those who fly conservatively and DOES NOT affect the way I play the game in ANY way, fine.
I have no problem with people making suggestions for the game...hell HTC takes ides from the community and those ideas are great.
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as was stated before, there's already a bonus in perk points for landing succesfully. Maybe the multiplier could be increased, but I still don't think that'd change many people's attitude in the MA.
Hmm, what about this, you don't get any score points if you don't RTB safely. You still get perk points, you still have your stats, you just don't gain points (for higher rank). It's an incentive to stay alive, but it doesn't affect gameplay one bit if you go out and die 10 sorties in a row. You still get perkies for everything you killed, you still can take off anytime you want, in any plane you want, with any loadout you want (under current system rules, obviously). Only thing is that's seen as a penalty for dying.
Aside from that, I like the kill streak ideas. You get more points for each kill streak in a row (if you land it safely, obviously, as that's the point here.) You go out and you kill 3 planes. First plane gets you some points right off the bat. Second plane gets you some points right off the bat, plus a possible bonus if you land. Third gives you immediate points, and an even greater bonus. You land, you have the points from the three kills, plus the bonus points (the 3rd kill got you a bigger bonus percentage than the 2nd.) You take off on another sortie, and it's kill #1 for the sortie, but kill #4 in terms of bonus. This could be displayed in kill buffer as Victory 1 (4) by Nifty of 332nd Flying Mongrels.
anyways, outta time, I'm going home!
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"AmOn, could it be the only conversation you care to deem intelligent is that which agrees with you?"
lol
As i stated..
Originally posted by Am0n:
Im asking if anyone would be intrested in a system that promoted surviving the fight, not my system. That was just an example i thought of while typing up the post.
So far, FOR THE MOST PART, everyones shot down the idea i stated first. Which i posted this afterwards disclaiming it was the point of the post. And even your self you seemingly dont get it until your last flame. That is not intelligent conversation.
Yes i can play to survive, but it doesnt stop others from playing crazy and doing outlandish things that they wouldnt otherwise do.
Im not saying im a conservitive player, you assumed that. Im actualy in the toejam every night shooting like mad and not going home until im out of ammo, carrying my chute or in a body bag. But i my self would like to want to live.
Some have actualy contributed to this and not lowered my IQ with there babbling.. JAB, TAC, Broes, Lance, Skernks, even the short but sweet Rude post to name a few (others yes). So maybe i should just start pointing out the flamming bellybutton holes insted generalizing the group of posters..
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Originally posted by skernsk:
Heh..Amon you sound pissed at me. Hit the bong real quick and settle down.
No way bro wasnt pissed at all, its hard to tell someones mood when they dont use there smilies and expressions of laugher and such. I can take constructive critsism. :)
(note the nice lil smiley!) :D
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Originally posted by Nifty:
...This could be displayed in kill buffer as Victory 1 (4) by Nifty of 332nd Flying Mongrels.
A 4-long kill streak??? :eek:
In your dreams, baby! :D :D :D :p
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Yes i can play to survive, but it doesnt stop others from playing crazy and doing outlandish things that they wouldnt otherwise do.
Here is what I am pointing out to you; you are wanting to change gameplay for others.
Im not saying im a conservitive player, you assumed that.
I never said that, and never assumed that. I fly Rook and have seen you. You are the one making an assumption.
Some have actualy contributed to this and not lowered my IQ with there babbling.. JAB, TAC, Broes, Lance, Skernks, even the short but sweet Rude post to name a few (others yes). So maybe i should just start pointing out the flamming bellybutton holes insted generalizing the group of posters..
Please clarify the exact point you feel I am flaming you or am not discussing this intelligently with you. You clearly do have an agenda to change the way others play. I have plainly told you "no thanks", not in any form you wish to forward. I don't want you or anyone restricting me because you don't agree with my idea of fun (unless that fun is destructive in nature and harmful to anyone).
I am not angry, I simply don't agree with you. I still challenge you to arrive at a solution that is not penalty-based.
I understood your first post implicitly. I understood where you were/are going right from the beginning. I am quite capable of sorting out the topics. I don't want to sound too condescending, but it wasn't that deep a concept.
You want to make it harder than ever for a newbie to be introduced to this game. You want to make it much harder than ever for people to accrue perk points. You want to make it even less likely that a new pilot can ever acquire a better ride. You want to push the altitude of all the fights higher, make people more timid, and increase the likelihood that people will run rather than fight. You want to see people strafe chutes just to deny perk points (ok, this is a good idea). You want to slow the game down.
Ok, maybe you didn't say this, but it is the effect of what you want. I repeat, it may be fun for you, but can you guarantee that more people will come than leave if these types of changes occur?
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You can return and land the airplanes in AH?
I will have to try that sometime!
Seriously, as stated, there already is a point benefit to landing your flights instead of fighting to the death. The perk points are greater for a landed kill versus dieing before landing. But, some guys like me just dont care about points. I fly for the fun of the fight, thats why I will too often attack 6 enemies by myself.
I like to fly the way I want, not the way anyone else wants me to fly.
dago
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Kieran
Im tired of typing the same post repeatedly.
Originally posted by Am0n:
You guys all crack me up, im laughing my bellybutton off.
very few want to have a intelligent conversation. The "dumb topic" you didnt have to respond to, im looking for those who care to add some spice to the game, the rest of you i could care less your opinions.
Im not trying to change your game, dont want anything for that matter. I simply just ask what could add the fealing of "i must survive this sortie", or do you people care to survive? if you dont care to live that is fine with me as well, death match is for you.
There is no need to flame my post, if you dont agree thats great im glad you can think for your self. I never once lashed out and said how much "AH sucks", "this must change now" or anything to that effect. As a matter of fact i love this game. But there is some things that i think could use some tweaking to make game play more enjoyable, you may think otherwise which i respect totaly.
Do i need to be more discreate in my post? maybe multiple choice questions?
1. If purposed for a change in the current system of life/death, land/ditch system in AH to increase a users want to fly the plane home, would you..
[list=a]
- Make a penataly for death?
- Make a incintive for landing the sortie?
- Fly in the current death match arena?
- Who cares, lets flame it?
- Im a old fart who pissed at the world and need to take it out on someone?
- Other: (fill in the blank)
[/list=a]
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Thx btw for giving me somehting to do at work today guys, brought a few laughs to rather dull day of watching people log into a server for 8 hours.. much fun :D
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. If purposed for a change in the current system of life/death, land/ditch system in AH to increase a users want to fly the plane home, would you..
I'll answer if you translate this to English. ;)
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AmOn, if you could, would you:
1. Prevent people from disregarding death in order to get to action quicker?
2. Penalize people who die by not giving them any points?
3. In any way reduce the low-level action currently dominating the arena?
If the answer is "yes" to any (or all) of the above, then I disagree with you. You can have your feelings hurt about it if you like, but I'll still disagree.
I have more fun fighting than anticipating. ;)
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How about this:
For every aircraft you fail to return safely to the base and land/exit ON the runway... you get billed an additional $5 by HTC.
There you go, Am0n. That would "make one think twice about death", wouldn't it?
Of course, it would make for a VERY boring arena.
Basically, Am0n, you concern centers around the fact that not enough people "think twice about death" right?
Well, if the vast majority DOESN'T "think twice about death" and obviously has no problem with the way the MA works... why should there be a change? To please a small minority?
I believe that's what Kieran has been trying to point out to you. Seems you're having a hard time accepting that most don't share your concern.
Apparently the answer to your first question in your first post is either "no" or "very, very few".
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Yup, that pretty much sums it up. I have no problem with what anyone wants as long as it doesn't intrude on what the majority wants. You eliminate the majority and you eliminate the sim.
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<S> Am0n.
I get the jest of your post. Allow me a few comments if I may.
I have known and flown with Kieran for quite some time. I don't agree with your interpretation of his responses. I read his replies as simple disagreement with your solution.
Kieran, as I know you will, lol, correct me if I'm wrong.
To your post Am0n. Why not reverse your solution? Instead of punishment for suicides, if you will, why not extend the appeal of surviving sorties? For example, in WB, they gave medals for reaching x number of kills per tour. You also achieved rank based on performance. There was a whole lot of performance based rewards there and tho dweeby as it may sound, some really got into that. Having Major before your id on the score page really had some foaming at the mouth. I'll let you in on a secret. My brother Comanche & I competed between ourselves for the highest rank per tour. Darn that little turd was good :).
Note: I'm not advocating any of the aforementioned. I used it as an example to enhance my point.
I am in agreement with Kieran on your solution. It is exclusionary. It punishes those that maybe, just maybe, can't survive a sortie in the first place. Going in the other direction might give an incentive but if they chose not to, no harm done.
Then again, I could be all wet. (Heaven forbid).
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Nope, Apache, between you and Toad you have summed it up nicely. S! ;)
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There are a lot of things you can do to make lives more valuable to players. But most of the ones I can think of are things that would make people want to log. And I'm not sure the type of flying that results is appropriate for an arena game.
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"You should get no perkies for the sortie if you dont return home"
I would like to see this tried in the MA
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Originally posted by Kieran:
1. Prevent people from disregarding death in order to get to action quicker?
2. Penalize people who die by not giving them any points?
3. In any way reduce the low-level action currently dominating the arena?
1.no
2.yes, not a bad idea if i say so my self
3.no.. although i wont say its "dominating the arena", there actualy are fights above 10k.
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Why would you take away furballing though? Kinda silly i would say, one thing it would eliminate is people trying extremely risky actions. Like i stated before so many kills in the MA are related to out landish E killing fights that end up in both participants dead. If death was important, neither would want that kind of fight, friend or foe.
This would leave the elite pilots in the furballs, which is want you may be concerned with overall, you can still fight there. ;)
Do you really feal that you, or the 25 or so frequenting BBS folks speak for the majority of AH'rs? in your honest opinion? :rolleyes:
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Apache<S>
you pretty much proved what im trying to say here.
Originally posted by Apache:
I am in agreement with Kieran on your solution. It is exclusionary. It punishes those that maybe, just maybe, can't survive a sortie in the first place. Going in the other direction might give an incentive but if they chose not to, no harm done.
They dont survive there sorties because they go around HO everyone (which i have no personal problem with), and proforming the above stated outlandish tactics that get people killed(both parties).. If you play with fire, you are going to get burned. But they dont get burned, they get replaned, better rank, and a few perkies out of the deal.. Sounds like it promotes death to me. :o
[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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AmOn, you're just going to have to define as precisely as possible the type of play you feel is appropriate. Maybe I'm not smart, but it keeps sounding like you are saying you want the elite to furball, leaving the neophyte...?
I am not the voice of AH, but I do have some common sense. You cannot cut out the new guy. You cannot grow as a business that way. And the arena numbers are going up steadily, I might add, so something must be going the right direction.
You think I am against rewards for living; far from it. I am against penalties for dying, because the person who gets hit hardest won't be me or you, it will be the new guy. If you would give me one way to support living over dying that does not take something away I would be all for it.
You see, you keep saying you don't want to change the way people play in one sentence, and then later go on to say you don't want people doing insane things with their planes- hence your proposed system. It's contradictory, certainly you can see that?
Like i stated before so many kills in the MA are related to out landish E killing fights that end up in both participants dead. If death was important, neither would want that kind of fight, friend or foe.
Again, do you want to stop this or not? If the answer is "yes", then you are trying to dictate gameplay that others do find fun (I do). If the answer is "no", how does the current setup affect you in any way?
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They dont survive there sorties because they go around HO everyone (which i have no personal problem with), and proforming the above stated outlandish tactics that get people killed(both parties).. If you play with fire, you are going to get burned. But they dont get burned, they get replaned, better rank, and a few perkies out of the deal.. Sounds like it promotes death to me.
No, no, no, you misunderstand. The rank didn't come by kills alone. It's much like the current scoring here. You wouldn't get a higher rank if you died all the time. Just wanted to clarify that.
<S>
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Here's an idea:
Every one starts as "new userxxx". You have to make living ace to pick your own name (5 kills, no deaths).
Then couple your handle to your life. Die, and lose your name. Back to new user.
(I think it's a sucky idea, but you asked...)
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Frankly out of all this, the best idea I heard was the implementation of a kill streak counter. It would give some motivation not to die, and I can't see anyone not wanting it.
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Money....thats the ONLY thing that would keep people interested in staying alive. Say, top 10 pilots (or whatever amount would be appropriate after studying the top 10 list over a year or so) get a free account for one month, not to be repeated 2 months consecutively. Something like that (keep the same 10 jokers from playing free forever too) would get people interested in staying alive and not playing quake. Leaves the arena open for quake play too, but would generate at least SOME interest in playing a tactica/strategic MA.
Tumor
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What I'm wondering is why you're not flying by your own principles am0n, if you like that so much.
I checked your k/d stats and you've died 81 times out of 125 sorties..
Try it out, fly safely and smart - you'll see that it's possible to an extent at least.
It can become boring tho.. You need a LOT of patience and SA to maintain high streaks. Most people just can't bother themselves with things like that since it's only a game.
People who are in this for fun - not ambition - play, furball and die. Ambitious players want to show off and compete (and get furious when shot down lol :) ) and might play in the most boring way. F.E. dive from 15k down to ack in 1:1 jug vs pony encounter and spin around ack untill t&b planes up to assist.. Seen it, been there, not done that - didn't like it.
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Very nice thought Am0n,
I think like you and can have a very enjoyable fight which ends in me and my enemy both flying home. On the other hand I never enjoy an instant HO which end in both of us getting a kill and losing our planes.
It just seems that the majority (at least on the bbs) belongs to the death-match-furball crowd.
It just makes it more challenging for us to try killing these kamikaze guys ;)
One solution might be to have almost all planes perked... just 1 or 2 or 3 points each. If one runs out of credits (perks) then only limited equipment is available.
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amon...let me see if I got this right... You have earned your K/D but mine is inflated and needs to be adjusted??? Or, I am playing the game wrong and need to be forced to play your way?
You are a pompous moron. If you want to be given medals that's fine with me tho but... as toad says, most "fly to live" ideas just make for a very boring arena.
lazs
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Blauk, quite frankly that is the worst possible solution- unless you are trying to lower arena population. Again, a very negative-consequences approach.
Let's take a stab at a positive-consequence approach. In "Flying Circus" pilots who went on a streak could acquire symbols next to their icons, representing levels of accomplishment. If you died, you lost the icon, the recounter was reset, and you started building again. See the beauty of it? If you don't care about the counter, you lose nothing. If you do, you have an incentive to live. No one hurt. No one forced to play anyone's game. Peace and harmony and stuff like that.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Again, do you want to stop this or not? If the answer is "yes", then you are trying to dictate gameplay that others do find fun (I do). If the answer is "no", how does the current setup affect you in any way?
Yes i understand it sounds contridictory, it very much so does. But you think it would keep people from trying things like i stated?
I think it would stop the majority, but not everyone. Some pilots can fly like that and still survive, as a matter of fact no ones k:d ratio is going to be effected at all IMO, its not like its going to make anyone a worse pilot. theres plenty of people who could proform these maneuevers and live to kill the 3 people who bounced them. But the ones who cannot survive do not deserve the glory of taking the kills home once they are dead.
Maybe a light perking on all planes but the early war ones would be a good answer to this, if you ever noticed most dont go around in there perk rides flying like idiots.
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BlauK
Your very correct, ive had some great fights that ended in both planes flying off. Those types of fights get the blood pumping.
I dont think that the majority of the BBS folks speak for the majority of AH, death match is not what most people want. Most play AH because the other flight sims are very poor at best. Thats just my opinion though, some would think argue that im sure.
If the majority of folks wanted furballing you would see huge 200 participant furballs every night, thats not the case. Although i have seen some very nice furballs, humongous ones, they were a blast.
I think a lot of you are assuming i dont like to furball, or push my planes envelope and do outlandish things. that is not the case, i do nearly in every fight, i game the game just like most people do.
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You know, what Kieran said is an excellent idea. I think. :eek:
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I don't disagree it could change the way people play. The question I have is why should you change it, especially if there is no apparent demand to do so?
I don't speak for the entire community, only myself. I say I wouldn't want anyone to tell me how I have to play, especially since I like to play in every possible way from time-to-time, and can under the current system. Your plan would remove an option I enjoy, wouldn't it?
The part of me that speaks for the newbies comes from a trainer perspective. When I was a trainer I found it incredibly difficult at times to bring a new flyer into the nuances of the gameplay. It is a steep curve, and this proposal makes it more so. I am not making an uninformed guess, I am telling you what I have experienced.
Most people appear to start play by just mixing it up. After a while they branch out into other types of play, but you have to "hook" them before you can expect them to move on to different types of play. Frame your suggestion in the form of an incentive that rewards rather than punishes and you have the best of all worlds. As it stands it removes a gameplay option that is a very big hook to the newbie.
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have HTC reward good flyin, not punish bad.
award a free month of Ah for each pilot/plane who has the best kill/death/sortie ratio. Do this every quarter or tour if they are feeling generous :) and have it for each plane type.
Only one win per pilot, with 2nd taking it if same pilot is 1st in more than one plane type.
maybe do this in CA as a way of bringing ppl into that room
I just love spending other ppl's money :)
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Let's take a stab at a positive-consequence approach. In "Flying Circus" pilots who went on a streak could acquire symbols next to their icons, representing levels of accomplishment. If you died, you lost the icon, the recounter was reset, and you started building again. See the beauty of it? If you don't care about the counter, you lose nothing. If you do, you have an incentive to live. No one hurt. No one forced to play anyone's game. Peace and harmony and stuff like that.
lol i dont want you to play like me, play how you wish. What your saying is that, under the sytem i purposed, you wouldnt be able to chase someone down, blow your E, his E, kill him and die 20 seconds later and be happy? i thought you didnt play for points?
I really like what you stated about the flying circus system though, you give somehting for getting kills but take it away when they die. That really is a great idea, maybe not the identical system but the concept is awesome.
Ohh maybe you get credit+points multiplier for killing someone, but you loose them if you die.. wait thats what i originaly said, that'll never work.. I would say that this method is a "positive-consequence approach". ;)
Get more points for multiple kills and loose all credit if you die. If you flat out die w/o getting a kill, no harm done then. So newbies who land that "one" kill can fly it home if they dont think that they can get another.. thats simple.
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Nice idea eagler :)
Wouldnt you think that would discourage a lot of people? There is a very few that would benefit from that. most who have no chance at all of ever achieving that status wouldnt care either way, becuase them like my self know they will never be that good.
but for a few of you guys, im sure you would LOVE that system! (i would if i was that good, for sure) :D
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I personally think dying sucks. I fly to live and have fun or I wouldn't be playing now, much less the last ten years.
Much to everyones suprise I'm sure, I'm capable of grabbing a spit and entering a furball, twist and shout with everyone else and get 5 kills, then die. That style of play may be fun to many, just not for me.
My motivation to kill as many enemy as possible and land those kills is self driven. My score doesn't matter to me nor does the admiration of fellow pilots...it's just about reaching my own personal goals.
I'm afraid that if HTC would lean towards a more score or life driven system, it would compromise gameplay.
I would like to see a streak counter of sorts implemented as it suits my style of play without effecting anyone elses.
I must admit, if the majority of everyone in the arena flew as I do, life just might lose it's luster for the community at large. I remember back in AWDOS, some of the best pilots hung out at 20k plus looking for that one on one...if you vetured up into their turf you had better be prepared for a potent air to air experience.
Let's just count our blessings and be thankful that we have a everchanging product from which we all can act like kids again :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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kieran... yep, played flying circus (you may recall). I never minded the icon one way or the other but some felt that it "singled em out". It kinda did. I would kill ol docdoom over and over. I never minded people hunting me, still don't. It adds to the action.
In WB they tried a "handle icon" in the HA when yu got in close. A lot of guys hated that too for the same reason.. They didn't want a target on their chest.
In AH we have the idiotic perk system. Perk planes are targets in the arena. Most of the reason they are not used has nothing to do with their cost except that the more the cost the more people like killing em.
While I would not care if my icon said "general" or "private" I would enjoy killing a "general" just to hear the wussy, sky accountant squeal.
lazs
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No, what I am saying is that if you remove the possibility of accruing points if you die, you remove the possiblity that people can get into the better rides. This is a penalty against furballing, not an incentive to live. Big difference.
How does it affect me? I like to furball once in a while. Your idea will reduce the instances of furballs (if it works the way you describe you would like it to).
See, the way it is now you still get some points for getting kills, even if you die. You get more points if you land them. This is incentive based, because you don't get things taken away, you simply get more to live.
For the sake of argument let's say your plan is done. Then we take BlauK's suggestion and perk everything. Now what happens? New guy comes in, is forced to fly 202. He has virtually no chance of killing or surviving. He manages a kill in a furball, and gets taken out on egress. He goes to the hangar to check score- "0". It is about here it will dawn on him the stack is tipped way against him and realize there are other places to spend his money.
No, it won't make me fly any differently because I don't care about my points (unless you want to perk everything). Difference here is I am established, and can hold my own. Still, the core attempt you are making is to reduce the amount of play you don't find desirable.
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Yup, that icon no doubt singles you out. But hey, the thrill is living, right? You can run all around the arena "living", having the time of your life. You can trail 30 people behind you, all looking for your pelt, then land satisfied you had a fulfilling mission pulling that train around the arena. <jk>
Still, you must agree the motivation for this type of incentive is recognition, and it delivers in spades. It's like wearing a great, big sandwich sign that says "Lookout, I'm hotsh*t, you'd better not mess with me!" Who could resist walking up to barely brush the sign with the tip of a finger? ;)
[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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Much to everyones suprise I'm sure, I'm capable of grabbing a spit and entering a furball, twist and shout with everyone else and get 5 kills, then die. That style of play may be fun to many, just not for me.
Am I reading you wrong? Spit drivers don't fly to live? I do. Whatever I fly, I hate being shot down. I want to land every kill I get.
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I hope im not being taken wrong here, i really like AH. Im sure anyone who seen the tremendous amount of time i have put into it in the last 4 months would agree (logged over 200 hours last tour). Saying that i will add i would hate to see anyone else not enjoy the game as much as i do.
The real issue here, which we have strayed from, is do you like the idea of adding in something that would make one want to land there kills? somehting besides personal gratification. Maybe somehthing that would make it short of imperitive to take your kills home and land them.
Personaly i like the approach you spoke of Keiran, give something for kills (more than now), but take it away for death.
So we could promote taking the bandit down, and taking it home with you.
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That I agree with. In the MA, give to make it more attractive to live. In scenarios or CT, take to make life more valuable. :)
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Originally posted by Am0n:
Nice idea eagler :)
Wouldnt you think that would discourage a lot of people? There is a very few that would benefit from that. most who have no chance at all of ever achieving that status wouldnt care either way, becuase them like my self know they will never be that good.
but for a few of you guys, im sure you would LOVE that system! (i would if i was that good, for sure) :D
I guess you could figure in a handicap system like they do in golf based off the previous tour stats for the lesser skilled pilots. seems they collect the data monthly now, just don't do anything with it as game play goes.
The existing rank system is hosed as you have to do well in all aspects of the game versus just in fighters - where it should count :)
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Nothing against spit drivers...just an example of a plane that turns :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Originally posted by Rude:
Nothing against spit drivers...just an example of a plane that turns :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
As I suspected, I was reading you wrong. :)
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Originally posted by Kieran:
That I agree with. In the MA, give to make it more attractive to live. In scenarios or CT, take to make life more valuable. :)
I thought you would have some valueble insight to add, you seemed to have strong fealings on the subject. Care to elaborate?
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I can if you like.
The MA is an environment that allows the broadest spectrum of play. It is attractive in that it allows newbies to get into action immediately (or veteren's if that is their preference), it allows strategy, it allows team play, it allows loner play... in short, there is little you can't do. That forces compromises in some of the play style, but it is not intended to be ultra realistic from conception- otherwise you wouldn't have Allied planes chasing B-17's.
The CT and Scenarios are a different animal altogether. The draw for these types of arenas/events is the fact it is an attempt to bring as much real fear into the play as possible. Here, one life completely changes the type of play and is desirable. Anyone signing on knows from the start they will be told where to go, how high to be, what targets to attack, etc. Structure is what it's all about, and recreating as much as possible some vestage of what it was like to be strapped in a multi-ton object, wondering if you would be alive at the end of the day.
They are two separate arenas with two separate goals. Yes, MA action is deathmatch oriented, but yes, to some extent that is a desirable outcome. This is also why if you want to promote living in the MA you must be careful how you approach the issue. You do it so that no one is penalized for not playing in that manner. In this way you preserve the concept of the MA while adding options to it for everyone. In the CT and Scenarios, by all mean, conscript people to do what they are ordered and go where they are told, and above all, live. ;)
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Sorry keiran, i dont know what that elaboration had to do with what i asked, good speach though.
We were making good progress, benifit from kills but loose the benifits for dieing.. Sounds fair to me.
So what benifits do you think would be good to offer, as not to disrupt the MA?
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You mean, what specific ideas do I have for making the MA a place where people desire to live over dying without penalizing any mode of play in the process? Honestly, I hadn't thought of it much as it isn't a type of play I needed extrinsic motivation to do. I suppose if I was the type of person motivated by external rewards I would want:
1. A certificate of some type. WB had the kill streak you could access right online. Not much use except for bragging rights I suppose.
2. Give more kill points to players in a squad. This encourages people to form squads, and presumably would encourage teamwork. The added benefit is that it would help develop the community.
3. Put in a really loud scream, much like HT's "Check Six", only high-pitched, and play it every time your plane takes a mortal hit. This of course simulates the death cries of the pilot strapped in the burning cockpit. Of course this has to be immensely annoying, and unchangable. <jk>
There ya go!
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In addition:
4. DoA had some pretty cool medals you could win- historical, of course. These were displayed as you exited from the award-winning sortie or when you had reached certain milestones. Make it so people can see your awards too, and you have your bragging rights.
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Awww, c'mon AmOn, I thought #3 would spark some interest... ;)
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Originally posted by majic:
Frankly out of all this, the best idea I heard was the implementation of a kill streak counter. It would give some motivation not to die, and I can't see anyone not wanting it.
Dammit, I was going to say that!
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sorry :p :p
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i agree with amon as im sure you all know. for the same reasons i think buffing should be harder and less accurate, but structures should take far longer to rengenerate.
for me the fun of getting a kill or killing a base or something is knowing i just ruined someones day. that they are gonna be punished for me killing them, which is why i enjoy scenario killls so much and find them very rewarding. thats why i enjoy wild wednesday, because ive just eliminated someone. in the MA this sense of accomplishment just isnt there, and cheapens the experience.
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Over rewarding survival when there is no requirment to follow orders is not a historical improvment. At least in the MA now most people are following Pyros orders and trying to capture bases and bomb strat.
In WW2 the guys that stressed survival over achieving a mission were not rewarded for it. (german aces and some pacific ones excepted)
What you are proposing is actually more quake like then what we have. Penalizing death. But not penalizing cowardice. Military organizations are actually more concerned with cowardice.
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for me the fun of getting a kill or killing a base or something is knowing i just ruined someones day. that they are gonna be punished for me killing them, which is why i enjoy scenario killls so much and find them very rewarding. thats why i enjoy wild wednesday, because ive just eliminated someone.
Ugh. Suddenly lost all desire to do WW. I thought it was about fun, silly me. :rolleyes:
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It all sounds so much more reasonable when kieran says it.
I say... you just want your style to be rewarded over others because you feel you are not getting enough attention even tho there are plenty of stats to track what you do and... the score system and perk system allready reward life over death.
I also say that you are not as good as you think you are... I don't believe that you can kill 5 planes in a spit and then die unless it is a fluke. I will bet that you cannot end a tour flying a spit with a 5/1 k/d. I would make one rule. you have to have at least 100+ kills for the tour. At the end you can tell us all how easy it is to furball.
Well... now we know that zigrat is in anguish whenever someone kills him... I allready knew it caus he whined so much when I did. Gotta admit tho... In his case... It was the fun part.
lazs
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Pongo
Interesting point, and you are correct in your statement.
Personaly i dont see fighting smart "cowardly", there would be some who would fight cowardly as there are now. Doing the things i stated are just as cowardly IMO, because there is nothing at risk for them besides the flight back.
I think that the military frowns apon ignorance more than someones bravery (or lack of), and these acts are a mixure of the two.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Ugh. Suddenly lost all desire to do WW. I thought it was about fun, silly me. :rolleyes:
Sounds like Zigrat is having fun to me. "Whats good for you may not be good for everyone else" ;)
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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I sincerely hope so, AmOn, but based on the stuff I have seen written since I've been back, I don't think so.
That mindset is so not me. I fly WW to mix it up with everyone, simple as that. I hold no illusions about winning, only that the action should be packed in a small time frame. I'll win a few, lose a few, but don't use that to create some illusion about my superiority (which is nonexistant). I will chat with the guy I just fought and we exchange friendly comments.
Fraternity. Collegiality.
I just can't imagine being in the mind set of just wanting to ruin someone else's day, just for the fun of it. I'm surrounded by people like this every day, I certainly don't wish to spend my free time in the company of more like that. Sure, we take jabs at each other and the competitive spirit rises in us all at times, but to possess a disposition generally oriented towards ruining the fun of others for my fun? Yuck.
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I guess I should add that, you're right, his idea of fun is valid. If I find that frame of mind abhorrent I can simply not compete in the event, which is what I choose to do. I am not ramming my view down anyone's throat, and the event will live on fine without me. ;)
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AmOn- comments on my suggestions, or were you not really interested?
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Hurmm i dunno, 3 and 4 sound reasonable but i doubt they would accomplish what i think is best for the MA.
Although i will say 3 is top knotch stuff, would be nice to know you sent someone screeming to there grave, but my girl friend already complains enough about the "annoying AH sounds". I feal bad enough when i die, i dont need her harpin on me to :)
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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I agree with what hblair said.
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Exactly, AmOn, which is why you would do anything to avoid dying. See? Mission accomplished! :D
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whew.. glad that got settled.
lazs
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NO!
YOU ALL HAVE TO PLAY MY WAY.
... as soon as I figure out what that is, I'll get back to yas.
;)
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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I'd like to see a not trying hard enough penalty applied to each succesfull landing.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
I'd like to see a not trying hard enough penalty applied to each succesfull landing.
The only time I successfully land is when I had to leave a fight due to low ammo or low fuel. Kinda hard to kill someone with no ammo left! ;) Oh, and when I'm vulching at a field and we take the field. :)
Yeah Yeah, I know I can rearm and refuel, and I do sometimes. But if you guys saw Kill 4 by Nifty, you'd start thinking I'm good or something, which I'm not! :)
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Don't we already have a reward system? Aren't the perk points increased when you successfully land your kills?
'course, I wouldn't know since I don't fly to live.
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I allways feel kinda... cowardly when I land... Like I've let some newbie down but, when your out of ammo what are ya gonna do? If you auger after being pinged then you give the kill to someone. I ditch a lot.
lazs
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Lazs, that is the number one reason I don't just bail more. Next thing you know you have some ridiculous argument being won or lost because of a stat that says "XXXXX has 6 kills more than YYYYYY", when in fact YYYYYY never returned to base intentionally.
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I don't have a key mapped to "bail" kieran. Might hit it by mistake if I did.
lazs
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kieren mabye i worded it wrong
i want there to be a consequence for getting a kil, as well as being killed.
in the main arena i hever get that "rush" as when you are in a ladder competition, or a special event where you only have one life. you know there are few consequences to flying poorly since you can instantly respawn.
on the other hand, in a one life environment, even LANDING is tense. You stop flying sloppy and really concentrate. when you land a successful sortie with a few kills, it MEANS something.
WHY does it mean something? because those other pilots you were flying against were flying to live too, hopefully. When you get a kill in that environment, its satisfying to know you just helped your team - thats one less bad guy who will be around to kill your bombers, or your sturm 190s or whatever.
That feeling just isnt present in the main arena because of RESPAWN. Sure you just killed him, but 1 second later there he is again, rolling with a new set of ammo and fuel.
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For all you lads that favor some "death penality" I think it is time for you to step up to the plate and be true to your hearts. If you have ever been killed in AH you should do the honorable thing and admit that you are dead and NEVER FLY AGAIN. In fact because I am generous by heart I think you should allow yourselves one death in each type of aircraft and vehicle. Then when you come on the BBS and bring this up again, at least we will all know that you are not hypocrites. Of course, dead mean don't type either. But when I see a blank spot on the screen where some idiot might have been trying to force some stupid fly-my-way rule on the rest of us, I'll know you are there in spirit.
Hooligan
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Right on Zigrat you are 100% correct. The only risk at hand is the long boring flight back to a fight, which is there either way you look at it so its not a penalty.
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lol lazs cheerleaders sure are funny, if they took time to read the post they would see that this isnt "my way", simply because i game the game just like everyone else does, the need to survive is not there.
Its much easier to die and re-plane than waste time flying back to the base.
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The problem that systems that excessively promote, via penalty or reward, flying to live fail to take into account is that there is nothing pressing us to engage in this game.
Why would 6 Hurricanes dive into 40 Bf109s and 80 He111s under any such system?
Things like this happened in reality because there were larger issues at stake than living or dying. You really, REALLY didn't want to die, and you'd do what you could to prevent yourself from dying but you had a job to do that involved putting yourself at risk.
In a game there is no job to do, not that really matters. There is nothing that compels you and 5 wingies to dive into overwelming odds in an attempt to break up the attacking enemy. If you add major incentives for living you also add a compeling reason to not dive into overwelming odds.
To sum it up, in reality there were compeling reasons to be both cautious and agressive, in a system of major incentive to live in a game you only have a compeling reason to be cautious.
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Karnak great observation :)
You are very correct in what you say, and i have to agree with you. If there was a system that gave great rewards for landing kills and bringing them home wouldnt that be a reason to be agressive? Even if you were at risk if you died. But it would stop the kills that come from them putting them self 100% at risk.
thanks for the imput, out of the 100 or so post here id say this is one of the 10 that i felt were constructive.
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Am0n,
Unfortunately, I don't think people's natures work that way.
I think that if there are major incentives to live and major incentives to get kills it would simply equate to, given my take on human nature, people flying around looking for easy kills and avoiding anything that looked risky.
In my example above, those Hurri pilots weren't diving into overwelming numbers looking for kills, they were trying to protect the United Kingdom from an enemy. Their friends, families, countrymen and women and nation. If they had simply been after kills there would be much better ways to go about it. (On the other hand, they were relying on the desires of the He111 crews to live. Trying to intimidate them into breaking up the formation, dumping bombs in the channel or open countryside and returning to France.)
There is no such incentive in the MA. I am not a Rookian defending my nation and people from the Knights and Bishops. Its just an arbitrary side in a computer game fighting against other arbitrary sides and only fighting because that is what the game is about. I have no motivation to really defend Rookland.
I am not sure that a playable balance can be found in a online flight sim between the two, and because it is a game it must err on the side of things that encourage action and combat.
That is how I see it anyways.
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Zigrat-
I am thankful for that last post- I didn't remember you as the type of player that enjoyed being asocial, and I can see that isn't really what you were driving at. S!
AmOn-
Lazs cheerleader? Only 10 or so posts worthy of note? I've spent a lot of time in this exchange of thoughts trying to discuss this with you; I'm hoping this hasn't been wasted time. Somehow I feel we are right back where we started...
Karnak-
Good points. Without a good reason to take risks, people won't if it means there is a stringent penalty. Tough to run a general arena that way.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
There is no such incentive in the MA. I am not a Rookian defending my nation and people from the Knights and Bishops. Its just an arbitrary side in a computer game fighting against other arbitrary sides and only fighting because that is what the game is about. I have no motivation to really defend Rookland.
I am not sure that a playable balance can be found in a online flight sim between the two, and because it is a game it must err on the side of things that encourage action and combat.
That is how I see it anyways.
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
Awesome karnak, great point.
But being my self and believing that anything is possible if you apply your self it only leaves one thought in response to this.. How could one create that fealing, not just "protect this base" but protect this land, the grass, trees and the water that surrounds it. It would be nice to envoke the fealings that you stated are not present, they are indeed not there.
I'm sure its possible, but its most certainly not "one thing" thats going to make people feal that way. It would have to be a slew of things. Maybe this isnt something right for AH, but its good discussion none the less.
now you got me thinking, thanks for the food for thought.
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Kieran
You spent 20 of your post trying to conveince me that my thoughts were wrong, in a unconstructive manner. But a few of your post were reasonable, yes you were part of the "10" (just used the number as an example). And you are also one of lazs cheerleaders ;)
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Karnak:
DING DING DING, Give the man a cigar, Those are the resones we don't give much a death penalty.
Basicly it comes down to, if the primary goal is living, why fight when you have a choice.
Ive experainced playing settups where death was to much a penality. On the extream is was a one life to live per night arena. In the not so extream it was AW's EOL system.
Players tended to always run if there was a small chance they might die by fighting.
HiTech
HiTech
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Happily a lazs cheerleader when I agree with him. Won't make the mistake of discussing anything with you in the future. Guess I could sum up my thoughts more bluntly and succinctly:
"You're wrong." :rolleyes:
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I agree with you Aamon, there are people online who's only objective is to shoot you down regardless of what happens to them afterwards. Good examples of this are the
* suicidal dives into a fully acked field to vulch someone"
* the guy who sits on your 6 even thou theres a friendly behind him blowing off peices of his plane
* the friendlies who dive into a 10 vs 1 and then scream for you to come help err die with them.
* the guys who's major objective is to force the HO on you regardless of the uber plane their in.
Of course these things never happened often in RL simply because RL pilots like other human beings have a strong survival instinct. Unfortunately the only bad thing that happens in AH is "You have been Killed". Then you get another plane and start again. Stupid? Yes? Solution? No
Unfortunately people like you and me who actually wish to have some sort of reality based flight sim are few, the DM crowd however are the many and our wishes are therefore ignored to a large extent.
HTC is a business which needs to turn a profit to survive obviously, so we'll just have to make do with what we have and perhaps wait for the DM crowd to grow up or a better more realistic game to come along.
Zygote.
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Preferably something with electrodes and capacitors :D
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well then we need to come up with a system thatmakes you really loyal towards you country,or give you something worthwhile to defend
as it is if you check my stats im logging less and less time into the main arena. why? because i think it is much like a drug habit. i have developed a tolerance, and there is no rush in ordinary main arena combat anymore. i used to dream about fights etcera. no longer, there isnt the rush. why? because there are no consequences for death, nor no strategic benefits to killing the enemy. its not exciting. a year agoin a good fight my heart would beat almost out of my chest when i was fighting a guy like rwy or nath but that never happens anymore.
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I simply just ask what could add the fealing of "i must survive this sortie"
How about electro shock, say 220V, whenever you die? :D I'm sure they can develop a special joystick for it. HOTAS will get a whole new meaning :D
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...so we'll just have to make do with what we have and perhaps wait for the DM crowd to grow up or a better more realistic game to come along.
Hope I never grow up.
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Pyemia
Yep, totaly agree.
you forgot about the suicide dive bombers killing cvs and gvs also. Theres tons of things im sure you could add to your list, so i shouldnt go on.
The biggest flaw in most games is meeting a equilibrium between realizm and game play, most fall way shorter of that objective than AH has.
It wouldnt be appropreite for one big change to have such effect but maybe a few smaller changes. Would be nice to here some more ideas from you all.
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Zigrat that could be a step in the right direction for sure.
I really dont have any ideas on that, but its most certianly a great idea.
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How about every time you get shot down HTC bills your account $1 dollar and credits the shooter $.50
HT??????
:D
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Zigrat-
What you are really describing is the fresh leaving the daisy. When you first enter a sim (or any activity) it's the excitement of knowing whether you measure up that motivates you to play so much.
Analogy: at age 30 I discovered running. It wasn't long before I could run with the club in town. They weren't elite by national standards by any means, but were pretty good on a state level. I began to travel to races with them, and enjoyed a mercurial rise in performance. It wasn't long before I became a challenger to win in most races I entered. I was euphoric, and began spending more and more time running (85 mile per week), committing more time to planning my training, strategizing my races, and traveling.
This I did for years, and loved it, but eventually I noticed something was missing. When I lined up to begin a race I no longer felt the high pulse, the anxious desire to look into the eyes of the competitors near me, or any sense of mystery. The fact was in the six years I was competitive I had explored every facet of the running game available to me (I raced everything from 1 mile to marathon), and the thrill of the unknown was gone.
I had, in my pursuit of "being the best" lost sight of the very essence of made running my passion for so long- the simple joy of running. I had made the best lifelong friends I have ever had, seen many sites I wouldn't have (I ran the 100th Boston Marathon), and enjoyed health benefits I would never have realized. Yet there I was, ready to give it up because I didn't enjoy racing anymore.
It wasn't because running wasn't real enough- it was. It wasn't because it wasn't challenging- it was and is. I lost my desire for running because I was familiar enough with it that I no longer had the great running unknown before me, I was established as a runner both in my mind and in those around me. I had reached the limits of my physical ability, I knew where the boundaries lay.
If you think making changes to this sim (changes that will drive people away) will change how you feel, think about what I've written. Remember how you used to feel when you started, how often you played, think about why that is. I started down that path here before, and I had to reel myself in. I don't want to burn myself out of the one thing I do now that gives me release from my real life. I choose to take a carefree approach to this game for good reason. ;)
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every furball is different to me. Every minute spent flying around with no cons in site is the same to me. I been doing this too many years to spend much time flying around with no cons in site.
Chasing dots is not any more fun or, maybe marginally more fun. amon want's to increase "dead time" ... I would rather kill cons than time.
lazs
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For me it's kinda like life...ya reap what ya sow. I personally lost that lovin feeling years ago. Rather than quit, I add my own incentives which motivate me to fly. Not dying to a dweeb or a vet has always been a strong motivator for me...I've even considered of late, changing the squads ride from the pony to maybe a P-38 or the F6F.
When I first began this hobby, I chose the AWDOS P-51 specifically because it was considered a non-performer...I thought if I could become proficient in the Pony even tho it was a dog, that would be an accomplishment.
Try and challenge yourself each sortie...it's not easy to do, but very rewarding if you can find that sacred ground :)
P.S. I almost forgot the most important factor...the people I fly with. I know some of you do not respect the 13th TAS or even like us, but what you do not know, is that this squad is made up of some great people who I consider my friends. Flying with the right folks can make a huge difference as to whether or not you enjoy yourself.
Zig, maybe your just not fightin with passionate folks :) You should hang with us a bit...you might find you have more in common with us than you ever thought possible.
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Rude ]
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Rude-
Not respect you? Nah, I do. I'll still take friendly pokes at you, though. :)
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Poke away man....just watch out for my fragile ego!
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Originally posted by hitech:
Karnak:
DING DING DING, Give the man a cigar, Those are the resones we don't give much a death penalty.
Basicly it comes down to, if the primary goal is living, why fight when you have a choice.
Ive experainced playing settups where death was to much a penality. On the extream is was a one life to live per night arena. In the not so extream it was AW's EOL system.
Players tended to always run if there was a small chance they might die by fighting.
HiTech
HiTech
But HT, you do have death penalties...and rewards.
Check the perk system: Highly visible points birds like the F4U4, ME262, AR234. All of these birds will cause a player to throw caution to the wind for a chance at building up points. I've proven it by dragging a dozen dweebs at a time in a 262 or F4U4. They all broke off an attack on a base to try to get me. :D
Then there are the scores: Ranks for fighters, Bomber, Vehicles, Boats, Over All, Squads...etc.
All of these are incentives and punishments.
Obviously we don't all share the same views on what is important.
Lots of the newer players like the furball, while many of us experienced folk love the strategic base capture.
A good ballance of both is nearly impossible to attain, and seperating the community is an idea that sucks.
I like the idea of penalty for death, but I think that a penalty for EVERY death would stink.
Perhaps a timer applied system?
Say, if you have 4 deaths in an hour, then Death 5 would invoke a 5 minute time out (muting communications on all but Squad chan. should be part of this :) ). After the time out, the counter would be at 0. (of course it would suck to not be able to kill NHCouger 20 times in a vulch, but I'll live :D)
This type of system would induce some sense of consequence and perhaps allow us to have lower perk penalties on the good stuff. ;)
Viper
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HiTech said "much of penalty", not "no penalties"...
and timeouts? Are you serious?
You guys won't be happy until you make the game 'fun' for you and the other 4 people that think those setups are "fun".
-SW
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"fragile ego"
I can't stand people who use Latin.
;)
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SW.. it don't matter who tells em.. they still don't get it.
rude.. you may not believe this but other squads that fly completely different than yours are filled with skilled players who are all friends. course... we don't worry as much about "respect" or "like". If we don't "like" someone we just don't let em in.
lazs
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How about if no enemy planes are within 3k, fuel burn rate is tripled?
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Haven't the time to read the entire thread, sorry, but, what about promoting landing kill streaks?
Landing 5 air/air kills means free perk prop planes for next flight. If some of the 5 is a buff, free perk bombers also.
Landing 10 air/air kills means free perk jet fighters for next flight. If some of the 10 is a buff, free perk bombers also.
This will motivate both, survavility and agressiveness of the pilots.
Oh! I almost forget, kills in a spit dont count for streaks :D
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Man-
Good idea, though it might need some adjustment.
BTW, I went a sailin' in the 190 last night. Love that ride, I feel invincible.
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"I feel invincible"
That's your polished black leather Prussian undies from 'Frederick's of Dusseldorf' talking.
-Westy
:)
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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Good idea mandoble, deffinately on the right track. As keiran stated i think it could use some elaborating.
Although it would discourage the pilots who have troubles landing 2 kills let a lone 5 or 10. Those same pilots are the ones who do the suicidal things that i stated before, so i doubt it would accomplish much in that area. It may actualy promote those acts.
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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... need some adjustment? ... some elaborating?? Are you two refering to the mandatory rule of dont count kills in spit for the streaks?? :D
Kieran, always the same dissagree point... ..."invincibility" doesnt mean efficiency. If you look for efficiency in a 190, then you'll be very very beatable, if you dont, then your 190 will be mainly ignored by the enemies.
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Maybe, but I feel like I am totally in control of the fight (and I am). Save that WEP for trouble, don't spin in the dirt with an La-7 and what can hurt you? Another D-9?
I was in for a short time last night. I knocked the wings off several planes (though the inevitable "chase it spinning to the earth, put some shells into it all the way" crew got a few of those from me. I didn't get a single shell put into me- not one. Went from 20K or so down to sea level. Shot out from a capped base, gathered some speed and was good to go. Fought with the carrier force, in and out of the ack, down and dirty with the Spits <shudder> and F6F's. Even merged with some F4U's and miraculously avoided the HO's (slow roll). Kicked in the WEP, used the vertical, and the hawgs ran. When a Spit pointed at me I fled, when they turned I came back and blasted.
It was a blast, and I think I will fly it for a while- forgot how good it is. Damn, that thing really ought to be perked...
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Damn, that thing really ought to be perked...
Like I been sayin' all along... La7, Pee51D, 190D9 and 109G10... perk them bad boys. We've got more '42-'43 aircraft than we do '44-'45. Perk them bad boys and suddenly certain aircraft become that much more appealing.
-SW
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And to make a symantic point, of course invincible can mean "unbeatable", meaning the plane cannot be beaten. You may avoid it, but you will find it hard to kill. You're frustrated you can't kill fast in it? Find the biggest furball you can and zoom through it several times. Don't turn, just hit-and-run. Don't give an La-7 and angle to chase you and there is nothing in the arena that will catch you on the flat, and the stuff that does may be sorry it did.
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sounds like a Pony to me kieren :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Yup, that it do. Believe me, I had that in mind when I wrote that, too. Difference is you didn't make an inane argument why the Spit IX should be perked because it kills faster than a pony. ;)
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]