Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CJ on November 08, 2000, 08:16:00 PM
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I just posted this in a different thread "I like this" below, about a day ago.
What do you think?
>What about making the bombers historically accurate. This would necessitate large formations of bombers to have a chance of success. With a limited player base like in Aces High, this severely limits large formations UNLESS we had automated bombers. This could be done by allowing each bomber pilot lead say... 3 other automated bombers in a formation. The 3 otto bombers would do their best to keep up with the lead plane, and would hold a decent formation, and drop with relatively good historical accuracy. The other 3 planes would have otto gunners with accuracy that mirrors the human controlled gunnery statistics of AH. This would bring large formations of bombers to AH, and still allow the effectiveness and sense of accomplishment to bomber pilots WITHOUT having super accurate bombing computers, that somehow negate the effects of turbulence (which there would be in real life, and which would randomize the drop.
To do this, bombers with simplified flight models could be programmed to follow the leader. The leader could select different numbers of bombers for his flight depending on a) the type of airfield he flew from, b) the status of that field with respect to damage, c) relative numbers of players for his country. This would allow large stratiegic formations from rear bases, and smaller tactical strikes from front bases. Also, if a side was outnumbered, they would be allowed more bombers to help keep the balance even. Experimentation in the game could be used to determine a fair (bomber formation modifier) to compensate for being outnumbered 2 to one or 1.5 to one. Maybe it could simply be based on number of aircraft int he air at a given time for each country, so that it would balance out any formation death staring that could occur.
Anyway.. this was just a brain storm.. what do you guys think?
CJ
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I think all player controlled bomber pilots
should be able to form up on the leader and
relinquish flight control to him, even when
you are in gunner position. The only way for control to be taken back is by actually breaking away from the group. This would allow tight secure formations all the way to the target.
sax
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Nice this, Sax.
A sort of "formation autopilot".
I like it.
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Can I also have a group of AI fighters with me in that case?
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 11-09-2000).]
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AI BUFF wingies would rock. Then you could reduce bomb accuracy and gun effectiveness to realistic levels.
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Well, a word of caution.
I want to know that whatever I blast out of they sky is flown by a human.
That's part of the charm with AH.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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An interesting idea.
I am scared of gunner otto in any form; your suggestion sounds good. However, part of the fun of jumping a buff is catching him head down or just daydreaming.... otto can guarantee that this won't happen any more.
Fury
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Auto-formation would be nice(AH does have auto-takeoff after all) - BUT - only if everyone gets the option to use it, not just bombers.
Combat AI(AI gunners, AI planes etc) should be avoided at all costs I think.
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Internet lag and issues aside, that needs it's own solution, I have to chime in with I do not like the idea of auto-formation. Why? It takes no skill. And imo that is a dumbing down feature.
Learn to fly in formation. Or be a target.
As for AI bombers with AI otto? Not a bad idea. But I would say no "otto." If you make it to target then the extra bombers are gravy for you and they help hit the target. If you don't make it or run into opposition then the AI bombers should be simple drone targets that shouldn't be any extra boost to your survivability.
But I'm of the "AI for box sims only" clan, not AI for a sim intended to be people vs other people. AI is fine for ack and FA II has a nice feature where the ground forces are AI. But aircraft in an MMP aircombat sim? Not crazy about that at all.
-Westy
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I like that idea of formation Auto-pilot. Maybe it could be coupled to the Wingman command, so that once you select who you want as wingman (say that would select flight leader) you could then go to autopilot and your plane would match the flight of the leader.
I think for it to work, you would have to get your plane into good position BEFORE selecting auto-pilot. Then, your plane would maintain a position, say with two new commands,
1. wingdistance = x yards
2. wingaltoffset = x feet
Your plane would then automatically fly in formation until you turned off auto-pilot or the lead plane broke formation by executing a maneuver that would put him outside your forward view (i.e. hard bank turn that auto-pilot could not match)
Maybe could be done... I don't like the AI stuff, it takes away the human error factor (i.e. no more suprize attacks) and puts additional load on the server to control the possibly hundreds of airborne guns.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
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What I would like is for the Panzer's top MG to be AI. Either that, or it would be nice to be able to hear a plane coming in to bomb/strafe you, so you could do something about it.
I hate being in a tank, trying to line up a long range target only to be killed by a plane that is basically stealth because it makes no audible engine noise that would be VERY easy to hear in a tank at idle.
How about it? At least a text message, "TANK COMMANDER: ENEMY PLANE APPROCHING!"
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
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I don't like the idea, since currently, the sim only requires (1) Lanc to be able to take down 50% of enemy radar.
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Sounds like something out of Fighter Ace 1.5
No Thankyou, robot Aircraft are just fine for offline fare.
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Midnight, tank engines are extremely loud not only when under the strain of moving but alos at idle. I'm not sure you'd ever hear any aircraft unless it was a Stuka and he was coming down verticly on you and you could hear it's siren..
Oxford huh? Btw, I'm typing this from Charlton. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
Midnight, tank engines are extremely loud not only when under the strain of moving but alos at idle. I'm not sure you'd ever hear any aircraft unless it was a Stuka and he was coming down verticly on you and you could hear it's siren..
-Westy
I'd guess that you could hear plane if you're stationary and TRYING to hear for planes..
Though.. hearing or MG34 doesn't help much when those uber hispanies comes at you..
though, if its any other gun in the air than hispanies, you can just bend back and start sniping the enemy plane.. (its funny.. no other gun does anything to tank than hispano.. no matter how many times you hit and from what angle.. and with hispanos you dont even care about the angle)
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Relax folks.
idea has been around for quite a while and it is quite good.
I do hope one day someone will implement it ....
As for "I wanna be killed by a human" thing - do realize that all gunners are controled by same guy.
Everyone wants weaker fire from the buffs, less accurate bomb sight but i'd like to see the same people who complain about it fly buffs sometimes.
As is all sims are nothing more then WWII everquest. We have 1000's of fighters and few bombers in the air.
In RL there was far more bombers in most airforces then fighters.
As is, it will never be an inviting suggestion to fly a buff by yourself which can be killed by first cannon dweeb that comes around and you have 5% chance of hitting somethere and even if you do - it doesn't make that much difference.
Get a squadron thing doesn't cut it... i'd love to see any of you guys with 50+ people squadrons do a combined mission.... sheees...
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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The idea of AI controlled airplanes is not appealing in AH. However, I only see a couple of ways that this would work. Scenerio one where a group commander controls a formation of bombers much in the way that the future task force will be controlled - by the highest scoring individual. Since this is a human vs human sim, I would think it necessary to man every bomber in the formation. There is no real satisfaction in shooting at or shooting down drones. We can all do that offline. If wingmen are AI controlled then shooting down the lead airplane should result in the the destruction of the entire formation. Other than creating huge masses of frame-rate draining bomber fleets, it seems pointless to me since all bombers already capable of amazing accuracy. This in itself renders the idea of large formation carpet bombing as overkill.
MiG
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I have to say the same that a few folks aobove already said ..
NO AI IN AH !
That's what makes On-line gaming so great, you know that someone else is piloting or driving or gunning .. not some programm routine.
AI for ACK is about as far as i'd go ..
DW6
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Auto formation? No thanks. No to any sort of AI too.
The things that made bombing fun for me in Warbirds were trying to fly nice tight formations on the way to the target and the banter on the 'radio'.
If you want people to get close and hit some sort of 'auto formate' function then what the hell is the point. A lot of bmber missions are an hour of boredom and 5 minutes of mayhem over the target (although not all of them, going lowe level to push deep behind enemy lines is fun, but rarely seen in Aces High). Take away the need to fly in close formation (which to be honest the Aces High gunner system tend to make pointless nayway, the covering fire from friendly bombers just doesn't happen correctly) and I may as well watch the telly.
Having said that I'm mostly flying fighters in Aces High, because there are currenly too many issues with the bombers and not enough dedicated pilots to make it interesting. So take what I say with a pinch of salt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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Guess ya'll forgot about the AI manned ack that kills us so often.
Lizking
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How do I know that you lot aren't all robots! I never seen any of ya!
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I like the AutoPilot for Buff formations idea, but:
- Buff formation would work like the .wingman command or .join command way.
- Auto Formation only allow coordinated flight. No bomber auto formation, no auto gunner, No AI, no Otto.
- All buffs in formation have to be manned. Pilots would jump to bomber/gunner position.
- Killshooter on for buffs in formation. Watchout who you shoot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
- No pinpoint 30k bombing for auto formation buffs.
- Auto disband formation when Flight Leader turns too hard.
Just my €0.02.
Pepino
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I want AutoFire on my guns.
That is, when the computer sees a valid firing solution, it fires the guns.
Just like in the MiG-29.
We need this is Aces High. Because we don't want to focus on developing the same skills as WWII pilots had, we wanna game.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
If I am understanding this correctly, he died while campaigning. Then afterwards, he won the election.
Voting for a dead guy.
This one goes to the book of "Stupid Laws Around The World". :D
That's beyond stupid. It's...BISHROOK!
Here, if ya die, yer outta politics. Yer party finds a replacement. And it ain't gonna be your wife, unless she's the best candidate.
Pretty easy solution. Sort of like "if you're dead, you ain't got a place as a forward in Barcelona. And if you held the place and died, your wife ain't getting it."
Hey, can I vote for Elvis? :D.
--
StSanta
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Wrong Lizking. Go back and read my post and a few others again.
And if you have a real point to make, then please do so instead of making a lame attempt to stir the pot.
In "Ack Ack Gunners Online" if the focus was to have human control of the anti-aircraft guns and aa vehicles then I could see the the need for AI operated aircraft. This is a WWII aircombat flight sim, not "Ack-Ack Gunners Online" nor a FPS game like Rogue Spear.
-Westy
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I think that the point I wanted to make was that auto-formation flight, at least for the buffs, would make formation flight and coordinated buffing a lot easier.
I understand that keeping in formation is part of being able to fly, but if you are a lone player, then you have to concentrate on maintaining formation, and not looking for bandits.
The "Bomber box" formation worked because the close proxcimity of the bombers in it allowed for 4 times the amount of guns to be pointed at any one plane at any one time. If the pilot if forced to stay in the cockpit so that he can stay in the bomber-box formation, the whole advantage of the formation is nullified because then there is no gunner looking and shooting.
If the pilot jumps to the gunner positions, the plane can fall out of formation, and then you have no bomber box.
It's catch 22, for the buffs--- Stay in formation and can't gun, or gun and fall out of formation--- screwed either way.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
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Originally posted by Westy:
Midnight, tank engines are extremely loud not only when under the strain of moving but alos at idle. I'm not sure you'd ever hear any aircraft unless it was a Stuka and he was coming down verticly on you and you could hear it's siren..
Oxford huh? Btw, I'm typing this from Charlton. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
I spent several summers on my father's lobster boat out of Cohasset. This boat had a big diesel with a straight exhaust, no mufflers. At full throttle, you could hear nothing but the engine. However, at idle you could hear prop driven A/C, up to a few miles away, very well.
There was even one occasion when I did hear a radial engine bi-plane passing over when we were cruising at max RPM, and beleve me, a straight exhaust Ford marine diesel is LOUD!
Westy---- maybe we will run into each other sometime <SALUTE>
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
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If the pilot jumps to the gunner positions, the plane can fall out of formation, and then you have no bomber box.
No, since the box is attached via the hypothetical .autoformation command.
Cheers,
Pepino.
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Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the inclusion of external and internal sounds. Eye candy and sounds are the two most direct sensations we get from playing on the PC. Both need to be as rich as possible for the "immersion" to take effect for us. I've just been next to a few tanks and you can't hear a damn thing when they're idling, let alone running.
-Westy
(grew up on the South Shore - So. Weymouth btw. Hingham Harbour, etc etc <G> )
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The point, Westy, is it is common to decry AI gunners, re Otto, but we all accept AI AA gunners without a batting our eyes. I do not see the difference between the two.
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Point of view difference is what is boils down to. I see the ack-ack as a side dish for those who like to capture or defend territory. Something myself and others are not always into. Where as with gunners on an airplane I beleive it is different because airplanes are the core ingredient here and I want no artificial sweeteners in mine. I want mano-e-mano aircombat and if a bomber guy wants to take a bomber up then let him defend it by jumping to the guns.
I am basing my prejudice against Otto as I've not seen any otto work very well, including WB's. If one came along that could mimick a human gunner pretty well I'd be for it. But not AI piloted COMBAT aircraft. AW used AI controlled C47's for supply in their strat model. That's fine with me. Just not combat aircraft imo.
-Westy
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Just limit formations to max 3. Buffs would have to break formation to effectively take ground targets anyway. As far as taking on a
formation with fighters, as soon as any damage is done to anyone buff it automatically disengages from formation and
cannot re-engage. Also they could have it set so that any damage done to leader causes whole formation to seperate, or have the damage done to leader cause exact same damage to the rest of the formation.
sax