Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rude on February 11, 2004, 03:36:27 PM
-
The Dems start badmouthing Bush about his supposed AWOL, all started a few weeks ago by the head of the DNC, their beloved Terry.
Weeks of trashing Bush and building suspicion and finally when the Republicans answer back and a photo of Kerry alongside Jane are shown, the Dems want to take the high road.
This AM they were saying,"well, if Bush wants to bring up the past, then that's his problem....it's the past, we however, want to focus on the future of America".
What a bunch of two faced crap....it was ok as long as Kerry looked favorable to trash Bush's past, but when Kerry is brought up for his past actions, now it suddenly is all about the future.
What a bunch of spineless cowards.
-
A pox on both houses.
-
lol....is there really a photo of him standing next to hanoi jane? OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE?
-
WARNING NOT SURE IF THIS IS REAL OR NOT....TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE IN TODAYS DAY AND AGE THAT YES SOME PICTURES ARE FAKED. I WOULD HATE TO OFFEND GScholz OR ANYONE ELSE
(http://members.aol.com/registered/private/freep/hanoijohn.jpg)
-
Originally posted by GScholz
WOW! A REAL PHOTO! Wtg Mudslinger! :rofl
Edit: It is really astonishing how the Büzhists fail to realise that photos like this actually make Kerry more favourable to the Libs and Europeans.
WHO CARERS ABOUT EUROPEANS....THEY CANT VOTE ANYHOW MOST AMERICANS DONT GIVE A CRAP WHAT EUROPE THINKS!
at least I dont....
SIDENOTE:
I've heard SOOOOOOO much bush bashing over the last 6 months from all sorts. A few kerry jabs and I'm a "mudslinger" Gotta love that libral hipocracy "if we do it fine, if you do it your a fascist"
-
Originally posted by Rude
The Dems start badmouthing Bush about his supposed AWOL, all started a few weeks ago by the head of the DNC, their beloved Terry.
Weeks of trashing Bush and building suspicion and finally when the Republicans answer back and a photo of Kerry alongside Jane are shown, the Dems want to take the high road.
This AM they were saying,"well, if Bush wants to bring up the past, then that's his problem....it's the past, we however, want to focus on the future of America".
What a bunch of two faced crap....it was ok as long as Kerry looked favorable to trash Bush's past, but when Kerry is brought up for his past actions, now it suddenly is all about the future.
What a bunch of spineless cowards.
heard that handsomehunkcrat this morning on fox say that and thought the same thing .. he was showing his true "colors"
Bush's record has been in the public eye since his begining in politics, nothing new there, Kerry's actions have yet to see the light of day..don't think the country will tolerate it.
I think whatever Bush did in the Guard does not add up to what the hippy kerry "protesting" the war and how each can be spun to joe six pack..
If anyone thinks kerrys service was anything more than another check mark in his political resume, you deserve to be a dumbacrat.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
WOW! A REAL PHOTO! Wtg Mudslinger! :rofl
Edit: It is really astonishing how the Büzhists fail to realise that photos like this actually make Kerry more favourable to the Libs and Europeans.
and to the nutbag terrorists around the globe...
-
That's how the left has always played it Rude. They don't even know what "fair" means, much less give a rat's bellybutton about it.
-
I can't believe people still play this game, much less root for the teams.
-
I for one can only applaud Kerry for protesting such a vile war. Even if one were to "forget" the very valid question about Bush's record in the ANG I can't find any hint of him doing anything at all.
I however don't lay the blame on him for what Jane Fonda was to do nor for how she horribly she behaved.
* (gunslingers original picture above was not the beautiful (sounds of throwing up) pic of Kennedy in a Teddy. But was Kerry and Fonda seen at the same 1970 anti-war rally. A picture at an event taken 2 years BEFORE Fonda's infamous visit to Hanoi)
-
You guys are acting like this is a new occurance.
As long as liberals exist, this will always happen.
-
kerry voted to cut the CIA budget, then blams 9/11 on boosh.
-
Originally posted by Westy
I for one can only applaud Kerry for protesting such a vile war.
I however don't lay the blame on him for what Jane Fonda was to do and how she horribly she behaved.
protesting is one thing. I dont blame him at all for that. Marching side by side with communist flags and people praising Ho Chi Min....that in itself is vile. While his fellow servicemen were being killed in vietnam he went befor congress and BLATENTLY LIED to them about atrocities committed their. That's not protesting that's betraying your country
-
I am not a Kerry supporter, but at least if anyone did, he earned the right to protest the war, having served in it. And he protested at home which to my way of thinking is the place to do it.
Jane Fonda on the other hand was a spoiled self-important loud mouth who pandered to the enemy and anyone else who would feed her ego with praise.
dago
-
i didn't know you had to earn the right to protest?
-
(http://members.aol.com/registered/private/freep/hanoijohn.jpg)
OMG PWN3D
-
i didn't know you had to earn the right to protest?
Yup, rights are earned, and if you havent earned them, then be quiet! :rofl
-
I thought Kerry served in vietnam? Where did Bush serve? Oh, in Alabama, so he says.
You can debate different issues between Bush and Kerry, but try to smear the guy who actually served in vietnam from the guy who dodged it? That could backfire. I don't think that is the way to play it. Bush is better off taking the high road and focus on jobs and the economy, that's what people find more important.
-
Jane Fonda on the other hand was a spoiled self-important loud mouth who pandered to the enemy and anyone else who would feed her ego with praise
While Kerry might have badmouthed the US (repeatedly), at least he didn't shoot at his own troops.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
at least he didn't shoot at his own troops.
care to elaborate?????????
-
Originally posted by Eagler
If anyone thinks kerrys service was anything more than another check mark in his political resume, you deserve to be a dumbacrat.
I wonder what he was thinking?
John Kerry is Yale grad who enlisted in the Navy, served in Vietnam, and earned a Silver Star, three Purple Hearts, and the Bronze Star with Combat V awards for his service.
I know... If I can just get wounded 2 more times I'll look really good for Lt. Governer! Then that Bronze Star.. with a V should make me a lock for Senator... and All I'll need is a Silver Star to become President... yea! Thats the ticket!
I bet McCain got captured on purpose too... just to further his political career...
-
ahh yes "the war record"
in 1996,Dole, a wounded decorated veteran war hero from WW2 ran againt a draft dodger and the liberals elected the draft dodger, i guess a "war record" was not as important in 1996 as it is today.
kerry has to play the "war record" card because he can't run on his voting record, he voted to cut CIA funding and defense funding. then the liberals blame boosh and the CIA for not knowing 9/11 was coming and WHERE ARE THE WMD'S.....oh brother.
kerry did not become "anti-war"until he decided to run for political office.
-
grrr oh those damned dirty lefties/liberals/dumbocrats, they're all the same and they're evil! Thank our riteous and christian God in the heavens that all republicans are pure as the driven snow!
-
"Marching side by side with communist flags and people praising Ho Chi Min...."
Link please?
"BLATENTLY LIED to them about atrocities committed"
Again, link please?
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
I thought Kerry served in vietnam? Where did Bush serve? Oh, in Alabama, so he says.
You can debate different issues between Bush and Kerry, but try to smear the guy who actually served in vietnam from the guy who dodged it? That could backfire. I don't think that is the way to play it. Bush is better off taking the high road and focus on jobs and the economy, that's what people find more important.
Wow you just slapped the hundreds of thousands of americans who defended and served this country in the guard and the reserves.... Wow, thats amazing what people will do out of political fanaticism. Bush flew F102 interceptors, at the time they were one of the principal air defense assets tasked with defending the USA from bomber attack, which was a real issue at that difficult time of the cold war. I guess that doesnt count for you, all of them were "dodging" the war..... There were plenty of easier ways to dodge the vietnam war than flying jet fighters in the military, for example howard Dean went skiing in the rockies and Bill Clinton visited Moscow... Heck, if you wanna be really judgemental even Kerry got out of vietnam early and got an easy desk job....
Tell me sixpence how do you account for kerry faking the throwing away of "his" medals and ribbons over the white house fence during a war protest, when In fact he threw away another man's medals and kept his own, which he went on to display in his senate office? That is serious issue of honesty and being genuine... In his recent turn as "war hero" presidential candidate he touts the very medals and awards which he FAKED THROWING AWAY... He is a potato of lies of conveniance and ploitical expedience. He is the anti-special interest candidate who took more special interest money than any other member of senate during his 19 years. He is the "tough on national security" candidate who voted to gut funding or every major project from the F15, to the M1 Abrams and Bradley to the AH 64 Apache and the F22 and countless others. He is the national security candidate who voted to cut intelligence spending for the CIA... He is the "moderate national candidate" with a voting record solidly left of even his mentor and fellow massachusets senator Ted Kennedy.... A real winner there, real honest...
You know what I'm happy that lunatic Dean is finished, but this Kerry guy is turning out to be just as bad - and likey worse when it comes to honesty....
Anyway thats why I dont vote - why soil myself by investing my vote in this filth?
-
It was a reference to hanoi Jane. Probably too vague of a reference too.
-
Originally posted by Westy
"Marching side by side with communist flags and people praising Ho Chi Min...."
Link please?
"BLATENTLY LIED to them about atrocities committed"
Again, link please?
Do a google search on "vietnam veterans against the war" You'll find they are very co-mingled with many communist movements at the time.
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/
Under Kerry's leadership, VVAW members mocked the uniform of United States soldiers by wearing tattered fatigues marked with pro-communist graffiti. They dishonored America by marching in demonstrations under the flag of the Viet Cong enemy.
He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."
kerry later recanted his testimony....do the research you'll find all sorts of stuff on this guy and what he did in the anti war movemen
-
Originally posted by GScholz
WOW! A REAL PHOTO! Wtg Mudslinger! :rofl
Edit: It is really astonishing how the Büzhists fail to realise that photos like this actually make Kerry more favourable to the Libs and Europeans.
It's real amazing the Scandinvians don't realize what Europe thinks of our politics doesn't matter a bit to most Americans. Europe won't vote, and neither will Norway.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
kerry later recanted his testimony....do the research you'll find all sorts of stuff on this guy and what he did in the anti war movemen
he "recanted" a sworn testimony before congress? isn't that perjury to lie under oath? oh ok , he's a democrat ........."i never had sex with that women, not one time" yada yada yada.
hey , maybe boosh can "recant" that he thought iraq had WMD's?
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
I thought Kerry served in vietnam? Where did Bush serve? Oh, in Alabama, so he says.
You can debate different issues between Bush and Kerry, but try to smear the guy who actually served in vietnam from the guy who dodged it? That could backfire. I don't think that is the way to play it. Bush is better off taking the high road and focus on jobs and the economy, that's what people find more important.
Dead wrong- Bush has nothing to lose. Most people couldn't think worse of him over his military record. Kerry on the other hand has a great deal to lose. Kerry has risen in prestige in the last few weeks speaking about his military record. If he knows when to shut up, it will carry him. If continues to press it, and with his own mouth associate Bush with draft dodgers and criminals (I heard the quote myself right from his lips), he will open himself up to a lot of crap he hasn't dreamt of. That picture is the tip of the iceberg.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
WOW! A REAL PHOTO! Wtg Mudslinger! :rofl
Edit: It is really astonishing how the Büzhists fail to realise that photos like this actually make Kerry more favourable to the Libs and Europeans.
since I got a new nickname today I figured I'd celebrate....here's an OBVIOUSE PHOTOSHOP
(http://r1329776.hostultra.com/Upload/data/media/3/kerryjane.jpg)
again I dont care about europeans I'm an American
-
KERRY ASSOCIATES NATIONAL GUARD SERVICE WITH DRAFT-DODGING
--Massachusetts Senator Attempts To Score Political Points By Insulting U.S. Military—
RICHMOND – Massachusetts Senator John Kerry says he’s never criticized someone’s Vietnam record, yet in an interview on the Fox News Channel Tuesday night Kerry said, “‘I’ve never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard.” Kerry added, “Those are choices people make.”
“John Kerry has stooped to another low in his campaign to be the Democrat Nominee, this time insulting the 455,000 men and women of the National Guard by comparing them to draft dodgers,” said Republican Party of Virginia Chairman Kate Obenshain Griffin.
“This is an outright insult to the over 28,000 Guardsmen who are serving our nation today in Iraq. John Kerry owes the members of the National Guard an apology,” said Griffin.
Heard him say it himself. Make no bones about it, he was definitely trying to smear Bush with it. Trouble is, it's gonna backfire on him, because the collatoral damage is too great.
-
to quote another famous vietnam veteran.."stupid is as stupid does"
-
Oh for the day when All Democrats are locked up and outlawed. That glorious day when we become 1 Nation, 1 Party. Wait, wasn't that the Soviet Union?
-
Originally posted by rpm371
Oh for the day when All Democrats are locked up and outlawed. That glorious day when we become 1 Nation, 1 Party. Wait, wasn't that the Soviet Union?
So pointing out some flaws in kerrys campaign image is tantamount to asking that half of america be arrested? Okeeee...
Gscholz how bout you cut the bush = hitler inuendo crap... Ok?
-
Originally posted by Kieran
Heard him say it himself. Make no bones about it, he was definitely trying to smear Bush with it. Trouble is, it's gonna backfire on him, because the collatoral damage is too great.
Unbelievable. Does he realize how many people served in the Guard?
-
yea MT we start going after the librals just like they go after bush every day and we are now nazis and bush is hitler.....typical.
(http://r1329776.hostultra.com/Upload/data/media/3/kerryjane2.jpg)
-
in 1971 kerry said the US troops in vietnam were baby killers now that he needs their votes they are his "band of brothers"
i wonder if he ever did jane fonda? i would have, she was a hottie.
-
Here are some top presidential candidates from the past decade for comparison. Note that these are only those who actually served in the military in some form. Clinton avoided military service by taking a Rhodes Scholor appointment in England. Dean was graded 1-Y during his draft induction physical due to unfused vertebra.
Candidate #1 enlisted in the Army and was eventually assigned to the 10th Mountain Division as a 2nd Lt. His unit was sent into combat where the candidate served at the front line. During an action, his platoon came under fire. His radioman was hit. The candidate got out of the comparative safety of his foxhole to help the downed radioman. He came under machine gun fire and was severely injured. The candidate waited 9 hours on the battlefield before being pulled to an evac hospital for medical treatment. The candidate was awarded the Purple Heart and Bronze Star for his service.
Candidate #2 graduated from the US Naval Academy and flew fighters. He had the opportunity to leave service after his minimum obligation was up and avoid combat, however his continued service saw him shot down over enemy lines where he was a POW for 5 years in one of the most notoriously cruel prisoner of war camps in the 20th century. His survival through that ordeal alone speaks volumes about this candidate's character. He was awarded the Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals and two Purple Hearts.
Candidate #3 enlisted in the Army after graduating cum laude from an Ivy League school. Rather than taking an opportunity to go to OCS, he remained an enlisted man. The candidate's father was a VIP and could have exerted influence to keep the candidate stateside. However, the candidate was sent into a combat zone as a combat reporter for Stars & Stripes. The candidate served with an engineering unit which frequently came under harassment fire and he was sent on volunteer missions to more forward engineering units in unsecured areas. The candidate never fired his weapon. Only service awards were bestowed. He returned to the States to attend Divinity school.
Candidate #4 enlisted in the Navy after graduating college. The candidate served in a non-combat role for a tour in a hostile zone. When his obligation ended, he re-enlisted to serve a second tour, this time in a combat role. While on patrol, his boat was attacked from shore. The candidate charged his boat and attacked the enemy. He beached the boat at the enemy camp, and personally jumped on shore to ensure the threat was neutralized. The candidate was awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts before leaving service.
Candidate #5 is a graduate from the US Military Academy at West Point. The candidate chose the path of an infantryman and served in combat. While on patrol, his company came under fire. He was shot four times (in the leg, hip, hand, and shoulder), but continued to give orders in command of his company to neutralize the threat and get his men to safety. Before leaving this combat zone, he was awarded the Silver Star, and the Purple Heart.
Candidate #6 had the opportunity to enlist in the regular armed services but instead chose the National Guard, which at the time saw more limited duty. He was tested and earned a score in the 95th percentile for officer candidacy (outstanding), 50th percentile for navigator slot (promising material), and 25th percentile pilot slot (minimum qualification). After basic he was given a pilot slot and commissioned. He immediately took a leave of absence to work on a political campaign. He successfully earned his wings in fighter aircraft after two years of active duty training. Eighteen months later, he requested to be reassigned to different Guard unit so as to work on another political campaign. The Guard unit he requested had no aircraft for him to fly. Two years after the US government invested millions on training this candidate he failed to take the required flight physical and was removed from flight duty. Six months later he earned flight crew status back, but did not fly for the remaining 7 months of his service.
One of these candidates is not like the others...for one of them, the only shots fired at him were filled with tequila.
Seriously, if any of the first 5 candidates were my son, I would be proud of the service they gave their country. For the 6th candidate, I think I would have given him a long lecture about the meaning of responsibility and commitment the first time they mentioned that they were going to take a leave of absence from duty to go work on a political campaign, and a longer lecture after he failed to show up for his physical.
-
gore was only in nam for 2-3 months, he got a early out to come back to the states to work on his fathers senate relection, his dad lost.
-
Bush screwed up. He should have volunteered to drive his F-102 over North Vietnam, through hell and back. Instead he chose, or was advised by his father, to stay the hell away from a war that was CLEARLY going to be lost by a screwed up liberal body politic, and a bunch of smelly long haired dope smoking hippies.
I resent the fact that Bush did not serve with honor and distinction, hell.....honor would have been good enough.
As it is, he performed more than a hell of alot of draft dodging dope smoking slimebags ever dreamed capable of. Flying a F-102 is dangerous by nature. And he qualified in the F-102 and was rated highly in that aircraft.
Kerry went and served with honor and distinction, then came home and opposed the war "in such a way" as to provide aid and comfort to the very people who were trying to kill him. Thats a far greater sin by a magnitude 10 in my opinion.
On top of that, for his own political gain, Kerry continues to undermine the president "in such a way" as to provide aid and comfort to the enemy. The man is far greater disgrace to himself and his nation then anything Bush ever did. Thats the end of it.
-
Yeager,
Would you care to elaborate on this.......
I resent the fact that Bush did not serve with honor and distinction, hell.....honor would have been good enough.
Just curious on how you can say that? Are you being sarcastic...by reading the rest of your post it is hard for me to tell.
-
No sarcasm. Bush should have volunteered for combat duty in the active Air Force.
-
Yeager.....why? He was in a unit that was in charge of defending the nation from the Soviet Union's nuclear bomber threat. Was that not important at the time?
-
Heh, well he apparently didn't think so.
-
Is service in Vietnam really a criteria for voters today? The major thing I resent about this whole issue is that it takes away from the discussion of the problems TODAY. I really can't fault people for decisions 34 + years ago when they were very young men and women. Vietnam was a tragedy and it was a mistake, but it's been over a long time.
I'm not voting for a man because I expect him to rescue his men on a beach under fire or fly a jet over my hometown. I want to know how he is going to directly affect my life and my situation.
I would rather examine the man and the decisions he made in the relevant past. How do these things relate to today's problems of jobs running overseas, illegal immigration, social issues, shrinking resources, taxes, healthcare.
I'm glad we went after the terrorists in Afghanistan, I'm also glad we got Saddam Hussein out. Was it the right thing to do? Stay tuned - we'll find out in about 20 years. It is unfortunate that we had to rock the world boat in doing so, but some people stuck with us and some didn't. It wasn't all that surprising who picked what sides. It really makes a difference if it's in your own backyard as opposed to your neighbors. This "rocking the boat" thing has been happening now for the last 100 and something years starting with Teddy Roosevelt. It's going to keep happening too. It wasn't in the world's collective best interest to invade Iraq, it was in ours and our truly close allies. Yeah, it's about two things; securing the worlds primary resource for oil & trying to plant seeds of democracy in the middle of an impoverished and angry people so that things might improve for them and spread to the regions around them, which would presumably benefit us. Success in either area would be big wins for us.
Another side note here, people who "opt out" of voting, by doing so they set aside one of the greatest gifts this country has to offer them and make themselves irrelevant in the process. That truly baffles me.
-
KJ174,
Couldn't have put it better myself...well written.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Wow you just slapped the hundreds of thousands of americans who defended and served this country in the guard and the reserves....
No, just the ones who were getting paid to be there and were not.
Wow, thats amazing what people will do out of political fanaticism.[/B]
Yeah, you should read your own posts.
Bush flew F102 interceptors, at the time they were one of the principal air defense assets tasked with defending the USA from bomber attack, which was a real issue at that difficult time of the cold war. [/B]
That's a nice spin. But the truth is those bombers would be intercepted long before they got near the country. He had a nice little gig, don't let political fanaticism fool you.
You know what I'm happy that lunatic Dean is finished, but this Kerry guy is turning out to be just as bad - and likey worse when it comes to honesty....[/B]
So when you look up the word honesty, there is a picture of Bush?
Look, I live in Ma. I've seen Kerry in action. I'm not impressed with him politically. This is the guy who used taxpayers money to move a firehydrant from the front of his house to in front of his neighbors house so he could have a parking spot(I can't verify this, but i've heard it several times).
But i'll never question his thoughts or actions involving vietnam. He served there, he lived all those horror stories you've heard. Maybe if you saw what he did, you may have protested too. I have a soft spot for vietnam vets, and no matter what they think about the war, I always respect their thoughts on it. I'll never question Kerry's service, or anyone who served over there. I never want to see what they saw. I hope no one ever sees that again.
Honestly, I don't think a regime change is a good thing at this point. I would like to see Bush resolve a few things he started first. We stood behind him when he made his decisions, I would like him to have the chance to finish it. It's only four more years, and the situation needs time, i'm willing to give him those four years. I have other issues, but I would like to see Iraq and OBL(edit) resolved first.
-
So the whole national gaard syatem of air defense was invented so people could dodge Vietnam. ;) There really was no soviet threat, right? You're kidding?
I dont think anyone has any serios objections to kerry's war service. If one was nitpicking you could say he goot out early on a few minor wounds and his silver star was kinda cheap but that thats threading thinly and is disrectful because he did risk his life like so many others...
However his postwar congrsssional record is more telling about who he is...
As for his honesty how can a guy who voted to gut spending or completlety cut some 30 major weapons programs (M1 Abrams, F15, F16, F22, Apache, Bradley etc) now campaign as a national security candidate"? As one who voted to cut CIA spending, how can he attack bush on intelligenmce weakness? As a man who faked throwing away his medals, how can he now laud his war hero status... Furthermore if he really was so disguisted with his experiences in Vietnam why is he so quivk to play up on the waer hero image? Imagine how many nazi soldiers won elections in post war germany by touting their participation in the war? I mean if the war was so wrong and US soldiers were such barbarians as Kerry testifided to in fron of congress, wouldnt you throw away your medals? Or would you fake throwing them away, and keepo them safe to mount in your senate office later on and use in a presidential election?
The guy is chronically dishonest, I love his newfound religion againt corporate special intrests after 19 years of being the biggest recipint of such funds in congress... Gotta love him... Yep he's the real deal alright....
As you alluded to yourself the guy is a degenerate selfish opportunistic scumbag...
I see nothing to be gained by letting him in the white house - his personal relent political record is awful...
-
wow
guess if Dole would have played up his gimp arm against klintons visits to russia, we would not even be having this thread ..
handsomehunkcrats = smear tactics as they can not stand on the issues or once explained everyone not on welfare would think them mad..
-
Originally posted by GScholz
WOW! A REAL PHOTO! Wtg Mudslinger! :rofl
Edit: It is really astonishing how the Büzhists fail to realise that photos like this actually make Kerry more favourable to the Libs and Europeans.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
-
Late reply to Gunslinger.
"vietnam veterans against the war" You'll find they are very co-mingled with many communist movements at the time"....."Under Kerry's leadership, VVAW members mocked the uniform of United States soldiers by wearing tattered fatigues marked with pro-communist graffiti. They dishonored America by marching in demonstrations under the flag of the Viet Cong enemy."
FWIW I personally could care less who was or is a Communist. Same as I do for people who like to label themselves liberal, conservative, Democrat or Republican. And I certainly understand why the thousands of anti-war protesters did what they felt they needed to do. (I find rehensible and unforgivable the spitting on returning vets at airports or Fonda's visit to N Vietnam). But to even alude to Kerry being behind all thof ier public displays of dissent(sp?) is a reach only a script writer in Hollywood could make.
"He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."
Why he recanted I have no idea. I believe it had to do with the credibility of the sources at the time. Because ALL of that did occur as I read of them in many of the biographies and books I've read written by Vietnam vets. It's not as if he had bad info on WMD which he hyped up to Congress or the UN for supporting a US/UK first-strike attack on a soveriegn nation.
-
"However his postwar congrsssional record is more telling about who he is... "
Absolutely. I'm not voting for Bush (didn't last time) and I'm not voting for Kerry either. I hate Bush and I dislike Kerry. Kerry voted for empowering Bush to attack Iraq and Kerry also voted for the Patriot Acts. While I can understand the voting to empower Bush in light of the times and the B.S. that was put befoire Congress I can't fathom voting for someone who thought the Patriot Acts were necessary.
If they, Bush and Kerry, are the best this country has to offer from the two major political parties (and the choices were just as bad last election) then this country is in for a world of hurt and for a loooong time to come.
-
Sixpence,
Have you ever served in the military?
-
Originally posted by guttboy
Sixpence,
Have you ever served in the military?
Negative.
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
Negative.
Well now, THERE'S a shocker.
By the by, you don't get to pick and choose the aircraft
you will fly after fighter training, you get sent to a unit. The
F-102 was not needed in Vietnam, the F-100, 105 most
certainly were..luck of the draw.
Rino
-
Sorry, didn't know you had to be in the military to post here.
-
Originally posted by Rino
Well now, THERE'S a shocker.
By the by, you don't get to pick and choose the aircraft
you will fly after fighter training, you get sent to a unit. The
F-102 was not needed in Vietnam, the F-100, 105 most
certainly were..luck of the draw.
Rino
That's not the whole story, you know... National Guard units typically were given second-tier aircraft, meaning they were to be used only in defense of the homeland. Frontline fighters were, well, on the frontline. Bush in effect chose his ride by applying for the National Guard and flight training. He would have known (in all likelihood) what type of plane he would be flying. Even more so if he was able to secure a specific assignment through request.
So if your argument is that Bush did not get sent to Viet Nam because he happened to be assigned to 102's, well, you're wrong.
-
You get hired by the Guard unit before they send you to UPT. Each Guard Unit gets so many slots at UPT per year. (It has varied through the years.) You "belong" to that Guard unit if they use "their" training slot to put you through UPT.
So Bush knew he was coming back to the F-102 squadron at Ellington.
However, the underlying idea that "Guard guys did not really serve" is just the most incredible horse exhaust I've heard around here in a while.
ALL those Guard jobs that were available during the VN years and all the Guard jobs that are available now exist because the governement/military feels they are necessary. They don't just create units for no reason at all.
That F-102 unit had a valid Air Defense mission based on what the military felt was needed at the time. Anyone that says they didn't is just showing his/her ignorance.
-
Never mind the fact that ANG pilots (and entire ANG F-102 squadrons, including one from the very 147th FIG that Bush served in) were called up to serve tours in Vietnam, and were an important part of NORAD which was a very serious mission in those days. Even in non-combat or training flying, it was still a very dangerous job. Per Tom Wolfe (The Right Stuff)
Being a fighter pilot -- for that matter, simply taking off in a single-engine jet fighter of the Century series, such as an F-102, or any of the military's other marvelous bricks with fins on them -- presented a man, on a perfectly sunny day, with more ways to get himself killed than his wife and children could imagine in their wildest fears.
The ignorance of some on this board, in the media, and in the DNC, is absolutely staggering.
-
Whine whine whine... what a bunch of whiners!
Liberals! Liberals! Liberals!
Commie! Commie! Commie!!
Jezus!
Hey! IT'S POLITICS!
Don't be naive!
-
F-102's were flown in Viet Nam by several air guard units as part of Palace Alert program through Jun of 1970. From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, Bush's unit, participated in "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War.
So remember this: Bush volunteered to serve in a Guard unit at the very time that unit had fighters deployed to SE Asia.
Bush qualified in the F-102 on June 27, 1970. Palace Alert was winding down at that time and though he lacked the number of hours they wanted in a pilot (1,000+) he volunteered anyway. They turned him down for lack of hours and because the 147th's misson was changing from intercept to F-102 RTU for the entire Guard.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Hey Bush DID serve in a war!
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERbusch.JPG)
Didn't know his first name was Ernst though.
You are actually kinda funny, but perhaps not the way you intended...
Nice avatar.
Nice handle.
Your German is pretty good- might even say "well practiced".
Your country has a history of collaboration with the Nazis.
I think it's obvious who the nazi is. ;)
-
Oh, everyone's a "Mr.Black" now? No, I think your tendencies got the better of you, Herr Scholz.
-
Sorry, didn't know you had to be in the military to post here.
Sixpence....
I was just curious....was not meant as a slam whatsoever I hope you werent directing that at me?
I grew up north of Boston in Chelmsford btw.
No, just the ones who were getting paid to be there and were not.
Bush was not being paid to be in Vietnam...he was being paid to be in the military. No everyone in the military ends up in combat or in a combat zone
But i'll never question his thoughts or actions involving vietnam. He served there, he lived all those horror stories you've heard. Maybe if you saw what he did, you may have protested too. I have a soft spot for vietnam vets, and no matter what they think about the war, I always respect their thoughts on it. I'll never question Kerry's service, or anyone who served over there. I never want to see what they saw. I hope no one ever sees that again.
I agree with what you are saying there.....I was just a PUP when Vietnam was going on.....for those that have seen the horror of war...their views on life take on a whole new meaning.
I am in the USAF and although I dont agree with Kerry on MANY issues...he did serve and is entitled to his opinions on the war. If those opinions are expressed in such a manner that harms our servicemen then I think that is wrong.
-
Originally posted by guttboy
Yeager.....why? He was in a unit that was in charge of defending the nation from the Soviet Union's nuclear bomber threat. Was that not important at the time?
What exaclty was the Soviet nuclear bomber threat at that time?
-
Originally posted by Pongo
What exaclty was the Soviet nuclear bomber threat at that time?
I believe SAC maintained a defense against possible bombers carrying nukes. Whether real or imagined.
-
Pongo, you should know better than that. The USSR maintained a strategic bomber threat all the way through the cold war and they still train for that mission to this day. Haven't you seen all the photos taken from NORAD interceptors of Bear bombers in the identification zones right offshore of the US and Canada? They were constantly probing our defenses and vice versa. Both sides had bombers and interceptors on a hair trigger for something like 40 years.
Our interceptors tended to take photos, theirs tended to open fire. The SAC Museum has a very nice monument to the dozens of US aircrew shot down by USSR aircraft during "peacetime", with details on each engagement.
I'm going to have to give a Cold War seminar at the next Mini-Con. We'll get Toad and Gums and some guys from Lawrence Livermore and Sandia to teach you guys about Nukular Warfare, toe to toe with the Rooskies.
-
Originally posted by Toad
However, the underlying idea that "Guard guys did not really serve" is just the most incredible horse exhaust I've heard around here in a while.
I don't care much about this flap but I thought this article was interesting - from the Washington Post
From Guardsman . . .
By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
During the Vietnam War, I was what filmmaker Michael Moore would call a "deserter." Along with President Bush and countless other young men, I joined the National Guard, did my six months of active duty (basic training, etc.) and then returned to my home unit, where I eventually dropped from sight. In the end, just like President Bush, I got an honorable discharge. But unlike President Bush, I have just told the truth about my service. He hasn't.
At least I don't think so. Nothing about Bush during that period -- not his drinking, not his partying -- suggests that he was a consistently conscientious member of the Texas or Alabama Air National Guard. As it happens, there are no records to show that Bush reported for duty during the summer and fall of 1972. Nonetheless, Bush insists he was where he was supposed to be -- "Otherwise I wouldn't have been honorably discharged," Bush told Tim Russert. Please, sir, don't make me laugh.
It is sort of amazing that every four or eight years, Vietnam -- that long-ago war -- rears up from seemingly nowhere and comes to figure in the national political debate. In 1988 Dan Quayle had to answer for his National Guard service. In 1992 Bill Clinton had to grapple with the question of how he avoided the Vietnam-era draft. Now George Bush, who faced this question the last time out, has to face it again. The reason is that this time he is likely to compete against a genuine war hero. John Kerry did not duck the war.
But George Bush did. He did so by joining the National Guard. Bush now wants to drape the Vietnam-era Guard with the bloodied flag of today's Iraq-serving Guard -- "I wouldn't denigrate service to the Guard," Bush warned during his interview with Russert -- but the fact remained that back then the Guard was where you went if you did not want to fight. That was the case with me. I opposed the war in Vietnam and had no desire to fight it. Bush, on the other hand, says he supported the war -- as long, it seems, as someone else fought it.
It hardly matters what Bush did or did not do back in 1972. He is not the man now he was then -- that by his own admission. In the same way, it did not matter that Clinton ducked the draft, because, really, just about everyone I knew at the time was doing something similar. All that really matters is how one accounts for what one did. Do you tell the truth (which Clinton did not)? Or do you do what I think Bush has been doing, which is making his National Guard service into something it was not? In his case, it was a rich kid's way around the draft.
In my case, it was something similar -- although (darn!) I was not rich. I was, though, lucky enough to get into a National Guard unit in the nick of time, about a day before I was drafted. I did my basic and advanced training (combat engineer) and returned to my unit. I was supposed to attend weekly drills and summer camp, but I found them inconvenient. I "moved" to California and then "moved" back to New York, establishing a confusing paper trail that led, really, nowhere. For two years or so, I played a perfectly legal form of hooky. To show you what a mess the Guard was at the time, I even got paid for all the meetings I missed.
In the end, I wound up in the Army Reserve. I was assigned to units for which I had no training -- tank repairman, for instance. In some units, we sat around with nothing to do and in one we took turns delivering antiwar lectures. The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.
I have no shame about my service, but I know it for what it was -- hardly the Charge of the Light Brigade. When Bush attempts to drape the flag of today's Guard over the one he was in so long ago, when he warns his critics to remember that "there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq," then he is doing now what he was doing then: hiding behind the ones who were really doing the fighting. It's about time he grew up.
cohenr@washpost.com
-
Thanks Funked1....couldn't respond to PONGO because I was away from the computer for a bit.
Pongo...see funked's post on this.
As far as the letter from Mr Cohen......and this quote from him....
In the end, I wound up in the Army Reserve. I was assigned to units for which I had no training -- tank repairman, for instance. In some units, we sat around with nothing to do and in one we took turns delivering antiwar lectures. The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.
You know what I wrote a book once....it was about space aliens that came down to earth....
I dont believe everything I read....just because a book was written does not make things gospel.
-
Well, MZ.. he must be right. Because one guy had a total "goof off" experience, the entire National Guard/Reserve system was a joke, right?
Dispelling a Myth:
Forgotten Acclaim
Part Two
October 2002
Air Guardsmen won unprecedented praise for their service in Vietnam. It’s a fact that belies popular perception of the Guard and the conflict.
By Retired Chief Warrant Officer 2 John W. Listman, Jr.
As outlined in last month’s National Guard magazine, the limited mobilization of Guard units for the Vietnam War came in response to the North Korean seizure of the USS Pueblo Jan. 23, 1968, quickly followed by the communist’s Tet Offensive in Vietnam.
In fact, President Lyndon Johnson authorized the call up of selected Air Guard units even before the first wave of the Tet attacks Jan. 29, 1968. This first mobilization brought eight tactical fighter squadrons, or TFS, and three tactical reconnaissance squadrons, TRS, to active duty Jan. 27, 1968.
Each of these squadrons was the main element of a larger tactical fighter/reconnaissance group, which included support units consisting of base operations, maintenance, weather, medical and other units. The total number of Air Guardsmen mobilized in this first increment included 1,076 officers (including 447 pilots and 11 female nurses) and 8,102 enlisted personnel....
But even before the 1968 mobilization, a few select Air Guard units and personnel were helping with the war effort in Southeast Asia. As early as 1966, Guard air transportation squadrons, or ATS, including Georgia’s 128th and Mississippi’s 183rd ATS, flying the C-124 Globemaster II, began airlifting supplies to Vietnam. More than 1,000 such missions were flown over the course of the war....
The first Air Guard unit to deploy to South Vietnam was Colorado’s 120th TFS, which arrived at Phan Rang Air Base, about 25 miles south of Cam Ranh Bay May 3, 1968. The unit, assigned to the 35th Tactical Fighter Wing, flew its first combat mission just two days later. By the end of its 11-month tour, the 120th had set an Air Guard wartime record of 5,905 sorties....
The next Air Guard squadron to arrive in country was Iowa’s 174th TFS. It was joined by the Iowa Air National Guard’s 185th Consolidated Aircraft Maintenance Squadron. Both units, totaling 376 men, were operational May 17, 1968. They were assigned to Phu Cat Air Base, 225 miles northeast of Saigon. The unit won high praise from their regular Air Force counterparts for the hard work the Guardsmen put in on keeping their aircraft in excellent condition. Phu Cat was an isolated post, with a large number of refugees seeking shelter from enemy attack....
The 188th TFS from Albuquerque, N.M., arrived at Tuy Hoa Air Base, 80 miles north of Cam Ranh Bay June 7, 1968. Affectionately known as the “Enchilada Air Force” (see side bar), it was assigned to the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing.
The 188th saw a great deal of hostile action--above and on the ground....
New York’s 136th TFS, the last Air Guard fighter squadron in Vietnam, arrived at Tuy Hoa Air Base and began flying its first combat missions by June 15, 1968. Also assigned to the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing, the 244 officers and men spent the next 11 months flying almost daily missions primarily in support of U.S. and South Vietnamese forces....
In addition, there was one more unit, sometimes referred to as “the fifth Air Guard squadron” also in action. It was the 355th TFS based at Phu Cat Air Base. The unit, which was organized in South Carolina as a regular Air Force squadron, had more than 80 percent of its personnel drawn from two mobilized Guard units: the 119th and 121st TFS. The 355th flew F-100s and performed the same types of missions as those performed by the other Air National Guard fighter squadrons.....
Yeah, National Guardsmen didn't serve. They were all a bunch of layabout goof-offs.
-
Thanks for that article TOAD.....I choose to believe that article....see you can believe what you want....
Now about my space aliens....LOL
Seriously good article TOAD.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
yea MT we start going after the librals just like they go after bush every day and we are now nazis and bush is hitler.....typical.
(http://r1329776.hostultra.com/Upload/data/media/3/kerryjane2.jpg)
Just cause someone has the insight to quote me in his sig, doesn't make him me.
-
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1076640670.jpg)
Never happened, right? Photoshopped?
-
Did you happen to know Doc Murdoch?
-
FWIW National Guard slots were almost impossible to get and was a sure fire guarantee of preventing one from serving in Viet Nam. Nothing wrong with it, and getting into jet fighters has an inherent risk all its own, but that's the facts, guys, from my first hand experience.
-
Airhead, when I went to UPT in November of '73, there were ~300 Air Guard UPT slots. That year the Guard filled...... 3.
I don't know about 1968.
-
Bush should be commended for flying the Dagger. From all accounts it is an evil plane as are most of the Century fighters.
It concerns me though, that after getting all that expensive training, he really didn't spend much time protecting us from the Rooskies that dared probe our ADIZ all the way into Texas.
In his 3rd year of obligation, the first year he was qualified in the F102, he was on active flight duty 43 days. Not bad since the minimum that a Guardsmen had to do was 39 days a year.
However, he spent a total of 22 days on duty and available for flight in his 4th year of obligation. Toad, I seem to recall that you've been a jet jocky...are 2 hops a month enough to be proficient in a vehicle like the F102?
In his 5th year of obligation he only was on active duty 28 days. And nearly all were non-flight status as he was "drilling" in Alabama, where they had no aircraft for him to fly, and then he was grounded due to failure to show for his physical.
In his last year of obligation he did earn flight status back by passing his physical, but he was not assigned to flight duties.
All that training and in return he protected our skies from Soviet Bears for a total of 65 active duty flight days. Over 6.5 years he served the equivalent of 25 months active duty.
Yes, he did volunteer for "Palace Alert". However, his squadron's participation in Southeast Asia ended in Dec '69 (it did continue in Europe however). Bush did not complete his combat crew training until 7 months later, and he only had 300 total hours when it was well known that the minimum was 1000 hours to participate. He was in no risk of being sent into combat. If he really wanted to go to Vietnam, there were much easier ways to do it.
I think one of the things that wrinkles my nose the most about Bush's military record is that the other candidates on my list put their life on hold to serve...Bush Jr served at his convenience so he could work on political campaigns and start an exotic plant & foliage business. To me that says something about these candidates commitment to duty for the service of others. The President of the United States should serve his constituents' interests and not his own, which is concept that seems lacking in Bush Jr's past...and present.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
LOL! You're getting too desperate. :rofl
Was? Ich kann dir nicht verstehen...
-
Du liebst Nazis. Du heisst "GScholz", nicht wahr?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Look boys! A Nazi! Well, he speaks German so he must be one!!! :rofl
Make up your mind Kieran, am I a Socialist or a Nazi?
The Simpsons TV show provides the answer. In one episod their sterotypical action movie star was fighting a group of evil guys they called Commie-Nazis in some fighter planes. You are one of them, I think. ;)
Thought techinacally the Nazis were NSDAP, so they were socialits by name. :D
-
Toad,
The name rings a bell but I cant place a face. Should I know him?
-
Originally posted by Toad
Airhead, when I went to UPT in November of '73, there were ~300 Air Guard UPT slots. That year the Guard filled...... 3.
I don't know about 1968.
During the draft era there were lots of ways to "beat" the draft system, from joining a police or fire department, getting a school deferment, or, like Bush did, joining the National Guard- at the time school deferments were only issued for four year institutions and you had to have connections to get a Guard spot. Whatever, it takes brass balls to climb into a fiter jet so his courage isn't questioned by me- as far as his motives go, I can't read his mind.
personally I'm more concerned with what they'll do for the next four years instead of what they did 35 years ago.
-
Originally posted by guttboy
Sixpence....
I was just curious....was not meant as a slam whatsoever I hope you werent directing that at me?
No, Rino. I never knew Kerry did anything to hurt his fellow soldiers. I can't imagine someone in that situation doing anything to put his fellow soldiers in harms way.
I spent time as a mailhandler at the GMF in Boston. They hire alot of vets and disabled vets(the law requires the post office hire them). Some of them were in rough shape, one that couldn't even function on the workroom floor. He chain smoked and would mumble all the time, he looked constantly shell shocked. He looked so much older than he was. People would ignore him, but I would always say hi to him(although I don't think he understood anything I said). Word was he saw some rough situations in vietnam. We had a couple go off the deep end too, one jumped off the roof in a suicide attempt(he lived, he landed on a trailor that was being loaded, busted up real bad, but survived). Another killed his wife, stole an airplane, and was buzzing the post office. He had an ak47 and was shooting at the post office while he was flying(no lie). I mean, don't get me wrong, most of the vietnam vets were normal. Some would talk about things they saw, some wouldn't. And some of the things they talked about were pretty scary. Every trap you had to watch out for seemed to end in spikes going through you. One mentioned the tunnel rats, I guess the vietnamese had built hundreds of tunnels, and there were a group of guys that would actually go into these tunnels(big balls), but there were traps there too, one being a water trap(I never asked what that was). I would never question them on their thoughts about the vietnam war or if they protested it, they lived it, who am I to tell them how to think about it. I mean, I feel I have no right to.
BTW, when I said being paid to be there and not being there, that was not in regard to vietnam, but to the service in general(in regards to Bush saying he was there when he may not have)
I have had many friends that did the Guard. A couple that did the Army, and one that did the Air Force. I never said anything bad about the Guard or reserves. What I said was that Bush had a nice gig that kept him out of harms way, that's the truth. Is he a bad person for doing it? Of course not, anyone with a connection would have done the same thing. I'm sure alot of politicians did what they could to keep their kids from being sent to vietnam. Is Kerry right for bringing up Bush's service? I don't think so, that's the politician talking(although I would understand some vietnam vets having some resentment towards the people who got out of going). But if your big issue is that Bush missed some time at the reserves, then your campaign is in trouble( I want to hear the real issues that matter to me). I said I think Bush shouldn't question Kerry's service, he should take the high road. I think it would make him the better person, imo. I think there are plenty of issues Bush can use against Kerry, I don't think his military service is one of them.
-
Whats all this **** about the NG not going to Vietnam? My father was in the NG, he also did a year in Vietnam.... and my family suffered because of it for the next 20yrs. There was plenty of NG that got activated and sent to Vietnam. Joining the NG gave you a "chance" of not going, but hardly better than civilians. At LEAST those who went NG (generally) took the oath. Taking anything away from them, calling them draft dodgers is really nothing more than showing your own well practiced stupidity.
-
Thanks Sixpence....just was curious.
BTW.....HOW BOUT DEM PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had to leave the room during the 4th quarter because I just couldnt take the stress of it all....LOL
-
Do de do de do....break it down!
Bush in interview: A critisism of my military service (or lack there of) is an attack against those brave men and women in the Air National Guard! God Bless America! *que one manly tear, que "The Ballad of the Green Beret", hope he doesn't smirk*
Critism of Bush = Attack on ANG
BBS: Because some (hey maybe even most) ANG units and members served with with honour and distinction Bush served with honour and distinction.
ANG is good = Bush's service was good.
Fanfreakingtastic. This is the logic and premises some of you, and your President, are using.
Kerry = Served in the US military with honour and distinction.
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction.
And that's all there is to it, when it comes to the military service of these two candidates.
-
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction.
So to be president you have to earn some medals anfd then fake throwing them away like Kerry?
What worth is kerry's "war hero" status if the man himself denied it so profoundly by throwing away his medals? I man faking throwing them away, what a phoney...
Tell mer Threawn was getting into flying dangerous supersonic fighters the easiest way to get into the national guard? I mean if bush daddy was so powerful why not get his son a nice clerical job or something?
-
"Joining the NG gave you a "chance" of not going"
A "chance" of not going? for the unfortunate Joe who did not have dad or connections sure. Not in Bush's case though. There was nothing random about his getting into the ANG or his duty assignment in the least. After all he'd only made the 25th quartile on his exame. 75%of the people who took the exame with him did better. 75%! But still, he got slid right into a choice ANG slot ahead of 500 others who were much more qualified but waiting on the list.
Bush's daddy and political connections got him into that ANG unit which flew planes that were purely interceptors. A plane that was pulled from duty in Vietnam in Dec 1969 (they needed F-102's in Vietnam like they need submarines on duty in Iraq) before Bush got his wings. There was simply no use for an interceptor like the F-102 there. IMO Boosh volunteering for that program after the 102 was gone from Vietnam and with him hjaving far less hours than was needed makes Bush look stupid and his "gesture" meaningless and shallow.
But some people poo-pooh the Vietnam aspect of all this. Saying it's irrelevant and a red-herring. They bring up that his REAL duty was to defend the US from the big ugly Russian bear who was poised to launch bombers at us any minute. Well that doesn't change anything either. For Bush was not with his unit doing that duty in 1972 and he'd lost flight status for not showing up to get his physical. Good thing the Russians hadn't performed a first strike heh?
As for the few who vainly try to spin the attacks on Bush' record as an attack on all NG personal, then and now, all I can wonder is just how good your reading comprehension is. The issues, just as Kerry's record and recently rumoured affair, are in the spotlight to bring attention to the make-up of an individuals character. It calls into question and examination a candidates "integrity" and "honesty" - or lack there of. And while some may say that Bush's service was thirty years ago, old history and that people change, I say just look at the cowdung the current adminsitration has fed the US public and the world for the past couple of years. Anyone can see that while Bush's integrity and honesty was lacking thirty years ago it's sorely missing now.
I mean if bush daddy was so powerful why not get his son a nice clerical job or something?
While flying an A4 or F-105 in Vietnam was truly risky, being a desk jockey wasn't "PT-109ish" enough when one has a future political career in mind.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/
Question, why doesn't this site list their resources? A proper bibliography would add more impact.
-
Originally posted by Toad
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_116_1076640670.jpg)
Never happened, right? Photoshopped?
Did that 102 scramble from SE asia and beat the Bear to the eastern sea board from the White Sea area?
You have justified the presense of the US airforce in Iceland and Greenland. But not in Texas.
-
Originally posted by Tumor
Whats all this **** about the NG not going to Vietnam? My father was in the NG, he also did a year in Vietnam.... and my family suffered because of it for the next 20yrs. There was plenty of NG that got activated and sent to Vietnam. Joining the NG gave you a "chance" of not going, but hardly better than civilians. At LEAST those who went NG (generally) took the oath. Taking anything away from them, calling them draft dodgers is really nothing more than showing your own well practiced stupidity.
Tumor your Dad must have gone over early in the conflict then (I'm guessing) because Guard positions generally guaranteed a stateside billet.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
You have justified the presense of the US airforce in Iceland and Greenland. But not in Texas.
This will probably come as a shock to you, but back then and even to this day, we station Interceptor units all around the periphery of the CONUS.
See, those 102's in Iceland would have a real long intercept if, say, Soviet Air Forces staged out of Cuba and came up through the Gulf of Mexico.
You did know that TU-95's did land and take-off from Cuba? And you undoubtedly know there was a huge gap in radar coverage South of New Orleans/Houston out over the Gulf? A gap so big that response time would be extremely short? I don't think Iceland-based F-102's could get there in time.
Heck...... we had interceptors on our shared border with Canada! Go figure!
-
Originally posted by Westy
[ As for the few who vainly try to spin the attacks on Bush' record as an attack on all NG personal, then and now, all I can wonder is just how good your reading comprehension is.
Sixpence:
You can debate different issues between Bush and Kerry, but try to smear the guy who actually served in vietnam from the guy who dodged it
John Kerry:
Kerry said, “‘I’ve never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard
Quoted by MZ: -"The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.
"-
I don't think you have to "spin" anything. If you read and comprehend what these guys posted, it's pretty clear. That's what draws the response.
-
" I don't think Iceland-based F-102's could get there in time. "
I agree.
And an F-102 flown by Bush certainly wouldn't have been there either fending off the bad guys as he was off doing some political shilling. Ultimately being dropped from being able to fly for having not shown up for his flight physical - let alone much else..
" If you read and comprehend what these guys posted..
It's quite CLEAR to me that the context is Vietnam era NG duty and how it was used by the influential as a safe haven for thier progeny.
-
Westy, I think you need to do a bit more research in to the Unit history at Ellington.
The 147th was then tasked with training ANG pilots to fly the F-102 and redesignated a combat crew training squadron. 1971 saw the arrival of the McDonnell Douglas F-101B Voodoo to the 147th FIG. The F-101 did not replace the F-102 it was just an addition to the role of combat crew training. Now the 147th was tasked with training of aircrews in the F-102 and F-101.
The implications this has are probably not evident to those who haven't been in the military and watched a unit's mission change. This is particularly true in the ANG.
There are expenses associated with retraining that can make it cheaper for the Guard to just let trained pilots go rather than re-train them in a new aircraft. Bush wasn't an instructor pilot; he didn't have enough hours in type. Most ANG instructors get their time in type in Active Duty service; it's a rare "guard only" pilot that ever flies that much in his first 5-7 years.
The 147th's F-102 alert mission wound down steadily, requiring fewer plain old 102 pilots. What they needed was 101 and to a lesser extent, 102 Instructors.
Hope this helps.
-
Originally posted by crowMAW
Toad, I seem to recall that you've been a jet jocky...are 2 hops a month enough to be proficient in a vehicle like the F102?
I doubt it. However, you really need to compare his totals with others in his unit. There are more things that impact available flying time than just how many times a pilot shows up.
My UPT class stood down from flying for one entire month due to a fuel shortage in ATC. REALLY not a good situation for students just learning to fly high performance jets. I guess that was my fault? ;)
In '76, many, many SAC copilots were reassigned to non-flying duties because there simply wasn't enough flying time to go around. It got so bad that they eventually assigned T-37's and T-38's for SAC co-pilot use only. Clearly, the co-pilots were shirkers, right?
ANG units have amounts of time, "blocks", that they are tasked to fly. If a unit has too many pilots, time can be spread pretty thin. The reverse happens as well.
In short, I don't think you can make the assessment you are trying to make UNLESS you know how much time the "average" Lt. in Bush's unit was getting during the same period.
Maybe he got way more than average. Could be, but neither of us know.
He may have got far less than average. Do you know?
-
Originally posted by Westy
It's quite CLEAR to me that the context is Vietnam era NG duty and how it was used by the influential as a safe haven for thier progeny.
That's a gross oversimplification and generalization.
Are you going to make the case the EVERY Guard member during VN was progeny of the influential?
Or even the case that the majority of the Guard during VN was made up of progeny of the influential?
That's hogwash and you know it.
It was indeed a relatively "safe haven" for many of the sons of the politically connected/wealthy/influential. No one disputes that. Bush probably did have "political help" getting in to the unit. So? As I said upthread, now show me how the draft-age sons of the other 434 US Representatives and 100 Senators spent the war. I think you'll find a common thread if you do.
OTOH, those Guard units that held the "fortunate sons" also had a legitimate mission. To castigate the entire Guard on the basis that it provided a somewhat safer service for the relatively few Guard members that were "fortunate sons" is a slam on the Guard.
Kerry should never have made that association. It cheapens his image, IMO.
For the rest of yas casting the aspersion that somehow Guard service wasn't "serving"..... it just makes you look......... uninformed. I'll take a guy that served in the easiest most lax Guard unit over one who ran off to Canada any day.
Just my .02.
-
"That's a gross oversimplification and generalization. Are you going to make the case the EVERY Guard member during VN was progeny of the influential? Or even the case that the majority of the Guard during VN was made up of progeny of the influential? That's hogwash and you know it. "
And there's that "spin" again Toad. The hogwash is your trying to make it sound lie myself and others are saying ALL , most or even a majority of NG people were hideouts from Vietnam. You and a few others try to make it sound like I'm are critisising all NG members who served as bad you. You claim I'm grossly generalising (I"m not. I feel I"ve been pretty specific) while at the same time I do beleive you're trying to make things simplistic. Black or white, no "give" and it's "all" or "none."
The truth is readily appearant. The influential did use several means to shield thier own and tucking them into a stateside cushy ANG job was just one. Is that a major problem? No. I have always been a proponant that the Vietnam "war" was a bad call by the US and would support any avoidance in particopating.
Powel himself said it pretty well in his autobiography, My American Journey....
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed and so many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us)managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegience to their country."
IMO the issue comes to a boiling point because Bush has been less than honest with the American public. He has waved and touted his ANG time as much more than it really was and even his own father attacked his opponent (Clinton) back in 1992 for dodging service. (and fwiw I think Clinton was a weazle too)
But Bob Herb says it best (short and sweet....), "Mr. Bush's experience in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam years is especially relevant today because it throws a brighter spotlight on who he really is. He has walked a charmed road, with others paying the price of his journey, every step of the way."
op ed piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/13/opinion/13HERB.html?ex=1077339600&en=1e501e375e41f672&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)
IMO Bush has left a large body count behind him over the last two years;internal resignations, destroying American foreign relations & credibility, loss of civil rights, outsourcing of thousands o jobs and with lower & middle class American lives. The body count is rising and that's on a daily basis.
-
Toad,
Should I know Doc...the name rings a bell....Was he at the 16th SOS?
Regards,
:D
-
Originally posted by guttboy
BTW.....HOW BOUT DEM PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had to leave the room during the 4th quarter because I just couldnt take the stress of it all....LOL
It was good to see, especially after all the franchise has been through. I've seen every debacle/scandal since 1976. Two in three years is sweet. Careful what you say in here though, the raider fans are still crying about the snow game:lol
-
Doc was one of our "gang of four" best friends in pilot training. We had a lot of "interesting" times together in UPT.
Yeah, you should probably know him. He did a lot of stuff in the black 130's, both the MC's and the AC's. He was a squadron commander down there but I can't remember which squadron. He'd have probably made his star, except he fell in love with a woman and essentially gave up his career for her.
Got out, went to Northwest, stood up out of bed one morning and died pretty much instantly of a brain aneurysm.
An absolutely great guy, one of my best friends.
-
Westy,
Bush's Guard service was no better, no worse and not really any different than thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of others during that period. Yet some here continually try to make it seem different.
So when you diss Bush for his service, you're using an awfully wide brush. You're generalizing, IMO.
Look, the guy got an honorable discharge. That alone gives the lie to those that accuse him of being a "deserter" or "AWOL". AFAIK or have been shown, there's not even an Article 15 in his record of missing any drill. If those that pontificate about desertion actually understood the military justice system, this lack of an Article 15 would silence them. The fact that they chatter on only highlights their lack of knowledge.
We agree that the influential tried to shield their sons. Let's see.. there's a tradition that dates back to the birth of the Republic, continues on up through the Civil War into WW1 and certainly into WW2, Korea and VietNam. So? Even Powell knows that it's a tradition. Congressmen extol the necessity for war while shielding their sons from duty. Rich man buy their sons deferrments in one way or another. It's hypocritical and despicable but it hasn't changed and I suspect it won't.
"Touted his Guard time as more than it really was".
Huh? Do please explain. He said he was in the Guard, did his duty, got his Honorable Discharge. Just like tens of thousands of other boys during the VN war. Where's the exaggeration? Quotes as examples, please.
OH, BTW, there's a HUGE difference between Bush's service and Clinton's lack of same. I think the senior Bush called it correctly.
"He has walked a charmed road, with others paying the price of his journey, every step of the way."
Isn't that pretty much true of every rich man's son?
C'mon, Westy. You're smarter than that. People resign from every administration; you need look no farther than that of Bush's predecessor.
Destroying American foreign relations? Really? It's all over now? In many ways, the air is clear now and the opportunity exists for more meaningful and realistic relations. There's no doubt about where some folks stand now, is there? And, if some of those relations that were "destroyed" were the best we could do for friends, I'm glad it's over. Sometimes divorce is a good thing.
Loss of civil rights? What, the Patriot Act? There is a war on you know, the Supreme Court still rules and the Patriot Act has to be renewed by Congress prior to the end of 2005. We'll survive.
Outsourcing thousands of jobs? When do you think this started or is it an all new phenomenom under Bush? Opponents of NAFTA were warning about this years ago. However, it's simply inevitable due to the nature of the present global economy. You go ahead and convince someone that they'd be better off building widgets in the good ole USA for $20 when they can produce them in China for $2. Yeah, that's Bush's fault alright.
Guess what else? No matter who wins in 2004, you're still going to see jobs going overseas. Know where all the "call centers" are going? Ask Zip where Sprint is moving their operators. Bush's fault? Nope, the nature of the business.
I probably won't be voting for Bush this time around. But it'll be on the WMD issue, not this baloney.
-
Originally posted by Toad
However, you really need to compare his totals with others in his unit.
Maybe he got way more than average. Could be, but neither of us know.
He may have got far less than average. Do you know?
Nope...that is a valid point. And given the transition of the 111th FIS to a training squadron for the F101B it is possible that since he was not an IP there is good reason for him not to fly. Still in his 4th year he mustered for drill only half as much as he should have and about the same the next year. Did he make the time up? Probably. Did he serve at his convenience? Sure looks that way to me.
-
On 6 May 1971 the unit received F-101F fighter interceptors and became the training center for all Air Guard interceptors. In August 1974, after 14 years of service, the unit's F-102s were retired, but the unit maintained a full fleet of F-101s.
Now how does that match up with the years you question? Any data on how fast the phase-out of the F-102 alert committment happened?
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction.
So to be president you have to earn some medals anfd then fake throwing them away like Kerry?
Are you hitting the crack pipe?
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction = Thrawn thinks that thinks that a US President must have served in the US military with honour and distinction.
Dude. You are making making up obvious lies about what I didn't say. And trying to force a straw man rebuttal to boot. Go hit the books some more. Have you taken a critical thinking course yet?
-
Well, I don't want to delve into the nuts and bolts of tis thing ecause I'm quite intoxicated, but my only question is- Are the trains going to run on time?
Really, that's my only coincxern. as long as Crown Royal is undeer twenty bucks a fifth. That is. Hic.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
No sarcasm. Bush should have volunteered for combat duty in the active Air Force.
Bush DID volunteer for Vietnam. The program he was qualified for ended before he became eligible. The plane Bush was qualified in was at the end of its useful life with the Air Force and the Guard. It was also totally unsuitable for use in the war in Vietnam. Bush is by far not the only pilot in the Guard at the time who was given an early out rather than being retrained on another plane. It was at the time exceedingly common for Guard pilots whose planes were being phased out to be given an early honorable discharge. It was also very common for Guard members, especially officers, to be given transfers and lax duty assignments in deference to the careers outside the Guard. Bush was eligible to be called up with his unit at any time, Guard units WERE called up to Vietnam, especially after Johnson decided not to run for re-election. The fact that his unit was never called up had nothing to do with Bush or his father.
I figure it like this: Duke Cunningham (Navy ace from the Vietnam War, believed to have shot down the top North Vietnamese ace), a decorated veteran, finds Kerry's actions after he left the war to be totally unacceptable. Considering Cunningham's record in the war, after the war, and as an elected member of the legislative branch, I respect his opinion of Kerry, far more than I respect Kerry's opinion of himself, or his opinion of Bush. Cunningham thinks Kerry is a dirtbag, I'm inclined to agree, especially in light of the fact that every Vietnam veteran I know holds the same opinion of Kerry and his war record, and his actions after the war.
-
From 1968-69, 12,000 Army Guardsmen and 10,511 Air Guardsmen were called to serve their country. Over 9,500 Guardsmen were sent to Vietnam, earning over 4,000 decorations during the conflict.
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Bush DID volunteer for Vietnam.
No...Bush volunteered to go to Europe for a 6 month rotation (where I'm sure he would have enjoyed the topless beaches on the Riviera). Bush's squadron's participation in Palace Alert in Southeast Asia concluded 3 months before Bush even had his wings and 7 months before he was combat trained. Palace Alert did continue for a short time in Europe however Bush was 700 hours short of the required 1000 hrs to participate...so he missed out going to Europe...darn.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
From 1968-69, 12,000 Army Guardsmen and 10,511 Air Guardsmen were called to serve their country. Over 9,500 Guardsmen were sent to Vietnam, earning over 4,000 decorations during the conflict.
Interesting stats...but not the whole story...what % of the total Guardsmen force were sent to Vietnam? I can tell you that of the 9.2 million servicemen serving between 1964-1975 that 3.1 million served in Southeast Asia at some point.
-
Originally posted by crowMAW
...so he missed out going to Europe...darn.
I pretty much agree with what you've said here but the gratuitous stuff like this is what raises my eyebrow.
Is the implication that all the Palace Alert guys in Europe really didn't have a mission, that it was just a big vacation?
Or is the implication that only scoundrels would volunteer for the "good duty" slots that occasionally become available in the armed forces?
Is the implication that if a "good deal" comes down to scheduling, you shouldn't volunteer for it because it somehow shows you're a self-centered little coward or something?
I volunteered for the "good deals" that came down to my squadron. I got one, once. I didn't volunteer for the clearly "sh t details" that came down to my squadron. No one did. I got a few of those anyway and so did everyone else.
-
Originally posted by Toad
I pretty much agree with what you've said here but the gratuitous stuff like this is what raises my eyebrow.
Toad...just matching outragous comments with outragous comments...
I've had to listen to the Faux...er Fox, O'Riley, Limbaugh, etc crapola spewed by boardmembers for years...now I get to dish the spin back out.
BTW Toad...continued research shows that Bush landed one of 4 pilot slots available to the Texas ANG that year...he filled the last spot having finished in the 25 percentile (lowest qualified) in the pilot aptitude area.
One source, says that there were nearly 500 applicants for those 4 pilot slots...not sure, but that number sounds a little high.
-
Originally posted by crowMAW
Interesting stats...but not the whole story...what % of the total Guardsmen force were sent to Vietnam? I can tell you that of the 9.2 million servicemen serving between 1964-1975 that 3.1 million served in Southeast Asia at some point.
I'm just disgusted by those who seem to think that serving in the guard is somehow dodging. It isn't. Elements of the Texas Air Guard served in Vietnam.
Web search indicates that while only 9% of American personnel in VN were Marine Corp, over 25% of the US deaths were absorbed by the Corp.
However 21% of Americans were Navy and only 4.4% of the deaths are to sailors.
If one were to base arguments solely on statistics, you could come to the horrendously incorrect conclusion that those who joined the Navy did so for the sole purpose of dodging the land casualties, as a sailors chance of death or injury was far less than the Army or Marine Corp.
Serving in any capacity in the armed forces in honorable.
-
Originally posted by crowMAW
he filled the last spot having finished in the 25 percentile (lowest qualified) in the pilot aptitude area.
Iv'e seen this posted as gospel but I haven't ever seen it documented. In fact, when I first went looking for it about all I found was the old "AFOQT/pilot aptitude test scores are not part of the permanent record" and so are not available.
What have you found on that in the way of documentation?
If he did get one of four slots, I'm certainly not surprised. His dad was a serving US Reprentative of Texas for pity's sake. All he had to do was pick up the phone and I'm sure he probably did.
At one time, the serving Governor of Missouri was a family friend; I could have easily gotten into the St. Louis guard flying fighters. I should have taken the offer, but I had just gotten out, had my major airline job and didn't see any need to wear blue again. Now, in my later years, I think it probably would have been a lot of fun. They had F-4's then and transitioned to F-15's IIRC. And all it would have taken is a phone call.
So? What's the point? Well connected people get to do things that "normal" folks never get a shot at? DUH!
Did Bush's dad get him into the Texas Guard using political clout? Did he get the slot ahead of other, perhaps more worthy but less "connected" people? I'd guess so; that's where I'd place my money if I was betting.
So? Like I said, now research what the other 434 US Representatives and 100 Senators did for THEIR kids in that time period, not just in the military but in the private sector as well.
Do you think there are any sons of Congressmen out there that are piss-poor students that graduated at the very bottom of their class that got real, real good jobs on Wall Street or in major law firms or corporationsa? What do you think?
Is that fair?
Check your life contract and see if the word "fair" is in there anywhere. ;)
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
those who joined the Navy did so for the sole purpose of dodging the land casualties,
Everybody knows THAT'S true, Holden.
;)
Good point; perhaps it will be a much more clear example of what some of us have been trying to say here.
-
I think you made a good point earlier; We all apply for the prime spots in any organization- heck, it's expected of us to do so. Yet... we are going to slam someone else for doing so. Of course the real question is whether political influence gave Bush an advantage, which it certainly did. That doesn't make his actions in that regard immoral.
-
I look at it as taking advantage of a situation he'd be a fool not to take advantage of- just like Clinton did when he applied for a school deferment or all of us do when we find a legal loophole that'll reduce our taxes. I see nothing wrong with it, just like I see nothing wrong with Kerry criticizing the VietNam war the way he did.
It's too bad they prefer bringing this crapola up instead of discussing the issues, but that's politics.
-
Toad,
I must have just missed him at Hurby. I wish I could have told you that I knew him...its a small dang world out there!
TG12:)
-
Originally posted by Toad
Iv'e seen this posted as gospel but I haven't ever seen it documented. In fact, when I first went looking for it about all I found was the old "AFOQT/pilot aptitude test scores are not part of the permanent record" and so are not available.
What have you found on that in the way of documentation?
Retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, then personnel officer in charge of the 147th Fighter Group, said the unit was short of its authorized strength, but still had a long waiting list, because of the difficulty getting slots in basic training for recruits at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. Martin said four openings for pilots were available in the 147th in 1968, and that Bush got the last one.
Its from an old article: Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm)
Originally posted by Toad
So? What's the point? Well connected people get to do things that "normal" folks never get a shot at? DUH!
I think that most folks don't believe this is appropriate behavior. I think that there have been more than a few examples of well connected folks that took the more ethical path through life even though they may have had the opportunity to do otherwise. I think it says something about a person's character. Don't you?
Not a dig...just a quote:
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." My American Journey by Colin Powell
-
It's quite CLEAR to me that the context is Vietnam era NG duty and how it was used by the influential as a safe haven for thier progeny. [/B][/QUOTE]
Nicely put, these are the kind of statements we want the families
of NG members to hear from the Democrats...more please.
-
"...hear from the Democrats"
I've no association nor liking to either political party. To me thier literally indistinguishable. Thier membership cards all look the alike. "Peoples' Popular Front of....." and "Popular People's Front...." That kind of thing.
Toad. I'm back from a nice long, relaxing weekend. Although this topic has moved along quite a bit since our posts a few days ago I'll can try to get back into a discussion frame of mind. But besides not having the oomph to get back into a debate this morning I also don't have a lot of time to today. So till later week.... :)
But. FWIW I saw in another topic you'd bought personal armour for a close family friend. That was one hell of a nice thing to do. I can't shake you hand to show you how much that impressed me so I'll have to settle for giving you a "" for the time being.
-
Originally posted by Westy
you'd bought personal armour for a close family friend.
Well, now let's link this. The young reservist getting the Interceptor vest is "well connected" in a way. The rest of his unit is going to be wearing the old PASGT "flak jacket" that's good for pistol rounds but not AK rounds.
Should he "take the ethical path" and just wear the PASGT? Will most folks believe this is "appropriate behavior" if he does not?
He's actually wondering about this; I told him not to be foolish.
That's it in microcosm. I'd buy every kid one of those vests if I could but I can't.
You know, I volunteered 4 year ROTC in 1968; took all the tests, got a scholarship.You know my "pilot aptitude" score isn't part of my permanent record? I don't remember what I scored but I got the "1P" rating so I was guaranteed UPT. Had to get a college degree, did that and went off to UPT in 1973.
At UPT there was ONE Guard guy; ONE. The other 54 of us (two POW's, lots of ROTC and a bunch of OCS grads) were simply amazed to find out that he had merely walked into his local C-141 Guard unit, got hired and sent to UPT. IIRC, he had some sort of "IN" with that Guard unit, of course. If/when he graduated, it was then off to C-141 training and right back to his Guard unit with something like a TWO YEAR committment.
I had a SIX YEAR committment. To top it off, he was "just a week-end warrior" and could have a "regular" job as well. I stayed in touch with Jim over the years. Eight months after he finished C-141 school and was back at his unit, he got hired by Flying Tiger. In later years he was merged into FedEx with good seniority.
Was his an "appropriate behavior"? Should he have taken a "more ethical" path?
I'll tell you this; after the rest of us heard THAT tale at UPT, the ROTC and OCS guys were all kicking themselves in the rear because we hadn't tried hard enough to find a "Guard" route to UPT. I know I wished I had. It's pretty cool knowing what airplane you're going to fly and where you'll be based before you ever start. In fact, with careful planning YOU get to pick the aircraft instead of letting MPC in San Antonio assign you to one.
CROW:
Yeah, I've seen "25 percent" in print. I think we all have. What I've NEVER seen is any "official source" for it. I mean, if Bush says "BS. I scored a 90." where's the document?
I don't know what he scored. I'd just like to see it documented.
I think it's a bit of a red herring anyway. If your father is a US Rep, you can probably get into any Guard unit you want, now or back then. Think about it; what CO WOULDN'T want a Congressman's son? A guy that will probably visit your unit and chat. "Say, Colonel, how's it going? Anything you need here?" Colonel "Yeah... maybe I'll hire a Congressman's son!"
To paraphrase F. Scott Fitzgerald's attributed line ""The very rich (and powerful) are different from you and me." Hemingway supposedly replied ""Yes, they have more money (and influence)."
I can tell you this though: I took that exact test and passed. It was fairly long, delt with mechanical aptitude and spatial relationships. I took another similar one after my Air Force career when I got my airline job. IMO, neither one had much to do with telling who'd be good behind an instrument panel. They thought it did and they used it to "sort" but it was a pretty rough screen. I understand they've made major changes in it since the good old days.
-
Just viewing from a distance, it's such a joke how the folks who were not even born yet or were 5 years old during the VW, sit here and tell the ones who served and were there, whether in the US or in country, what it's all about.
I wish those here against Bush would at least be honest....you don't like the guy....it's that simple.
-
Originally posted by Rude
Just viewing from a distance, it's such a joke how the folks who were not even born yet or were 5 years old during the VW, sit here and tell the ones who served and were there, whether in the US or in country, what it's all about.
I wish those here against Bush would at least be honest....you don't like the guy....it's that simple.
I certainly will be honest and say I dont like him. I see no strenght in him so it is probable that I have missed some value under all the issues.
Will you admit that you see no issues when they are obvios and blatent? That you ignore your own common scense to grasp at any excuse or lie he tells you?
-
Originally posted by Pongo
I certainly will be honest and say I dont like him. I see no strenght in him so it is probable that I have missed some value under all the issues.
Will you admit that you see no issues when they are obvios and blatent? That you ignore your own common scense to grasp at any excuse or lie he tells you?
I can respect your opinion and dislike of the man...at least your honest enough to say it.
As for issues regarding Bush, I have them....do they equate to the dislike of him and the desired removal of the man from the White House...no, they do not.
The difference between you and I seems to be this....I realize the solutions offered and taken are not perfect ones....this world is dangerous...more so than I believe you realize.
I agree with Bush in that I believe those who wish to harm us have all too long been allowed to prosper and direct their mandates towards the US without account.
While you prefer the staus quo, which has brought not one single solution to the problems of the middle east, NK and others, I feel it's time to correct these issues and guard the safety of the US and it's citizens.
Clintons dealings with NK brought us a nuclear NK...if you like that, then fine...just don't feel that we all must agree with you.
Bad folks are hellbent on inflicting bad things on the world...mostly towards the US...it's time to deal with those folks on a level they will, if not understand, at least fear.
Bin Laden purchased 4 suitcase nukes in 94(reported as fact)....one of his favorite verses in the koran(sp) is about patience...I point to the attempt on the towers in 93...eight years pass before the next attempt.
To believe it's all Bush's fault, while ignoring the past history of terrorist assaults on US targets here and abroad is reckless and irresponsible.
Pulling US Marines out of Beirut in 82 sent the wrong message....the dems want to send that same message again....if that happens, we'll soon see an event so terrifying as to make 9-11 look like a non-event.
What will you and others say to me then...oh wait....I forgot....you'll blame Bush:)
-
"Bad folks are hellbent on inflicting bad things on the world...mostly towards the US...it's time to deal with those folks on a level they will, if not understand, at least fear."
Ironic statement considering American foreign policy has been exporting coups, assassinations, and terrorist for decades.
-
Rude
I must have missed the part where people did wrong to the US and got away with it.
Why are you not screaming from the hills for retribution against Saudi Arabia. The center of islamic terrror in the world and the base of operations for the SUPRISE saudis that blew up the WTC.
I thought you and George would be stomping some saudi but for sure.
But it has absolutely nothing to do with Terrorism and US security and WMD at all. Does it.
Can you honestly say that you think the President had a single concern about Iraqi WMD?
About Iraqi support of terrorism?
About the Republican Guard over running Canton Ohio?
There was no threat Rude. And the "evidence" they presented at the US before invading made it pretty clear that they had no evidence at all.
Are you not even ashamed of yourself for trying to say this is something to do with the security of the US?
the only justification for this is that the US can invade other countries quite succesfully and your proud and supportive of that. Your glad you have a president that takes what he wants and lies and cheats to try to cover it up.
I accept that the guy is a life time politition from a family of polititions and that is what they do. But really, invading other coutries? Getting 1000s of people killed for a lie?
And yes I would hold GWB for any breach of security that made it through his world wide web of weapons and his department of homland security and his patriot act.
I blame him for 9/11. For a guy thats so clued in on matters of defence they sure blew that one.
-
I blame him for 9/11. For a guy thats so clued in on matters of defence they sure blew that one.
*Swish* Moved from the "sane" file to the "wow" file.
-
Pongo...
You've made up your mind....nothing will change it.
I'm a big picture guy....you seem to be lost in the forest. Destablizing the worlds oil supply by attacking the Saudi's is not a smart tactic....is that what you would suggest we should have done after 9-11?
You also assume much...like you know the truth and who is guilty of what....the world is complicated....the Middle East even more so.
Can you understand the method of a message sent?
I believe Bush thought WMD's were present in Iraq...I guess since it's Bush it's a lie, but Clinton, who spoke the same speak regarding WMD and warned us of the same, well, he's ok with you I guess as is the entire intelligence machine of the US, France, GB and Isreal.
Yup...Everyone was wrong, however, you condemn only Bush.
Dishonest perspective at best.
While I pretend to know nothing of fact, as I'm not there on the inside, I do know folks who are alot closer to the truth than I....the threat is real. Unfortunetly, folks like yourself will need more proof, more dead Americans, more innocent deaths....at that time, you'll blame the same man for not doing enough, or doing the wrong things.
I don't worship GB....his only real quality which earns my loyalty is that he really cares and takes the war on terror seriously....protecting this country means something to him.
You, enjoy your hatred of him....well, quite possibly Kerry could win it all....then you'll begin to understand what Bush is doing....then you might realize that appeasment is not the answer...being popular does not bring peace nor protect the innocent.
Enough said.
-
Originally posted by Torque
Ironic statement considering American foreign policy has been exporting coups, assassinations, and terrorist for decades.
Agreed and let's not forget that it was Bush Senior's CIA who trained Bin Laden how to be a terrorist!
They turned him into a "Freedom Fighter" in order to fight the commie Russians occupying Afghanistan.
Why did the Saudi Dog turn on it's American Master?
Why do Iranians and Lybians hate Americans?
Have anything to do with CIA meddling into their internal affairs?
Taking their resources?
Raping their sheep for pleasure!
Addicting their children on Coke, McDonalds, and XBox... Consumerism... destroying the morality of their Islamic Culture?
Or is it that they hate Americans because it's just happens to be Homeland of Street Walker Barbie?
-
Its now insane to hold the President accountable for acts of terror that were not impeded at all? You have a very very interesting definition of sanity. How could you have gotten the idea that its impossible to hold the president accountable for national security? It seems to fly in the face of reason.
Rude.
"Destablizing the worlds oil supply by attacking the Saudi's is not a smart tactic."
So you are now being at least a smidge honest. The big picture of oil supply and control is more important then little issues like punishing the source of the attack on the US.
Better to invade Iraq. Thats the big picture answer.
Yet there is comparitivly massive evidence agianst Saudi Arabia vs Iraq.
The perpetrator were Saudis. thats one clue.
Their leader is a Saudi.
The moslem schools all over the world that are teaching this stuff are paid for by the Saudis.
Saudi Princes pulled thier mony out of the US airlines involved days befor the attack.
Saudi intelligence agents paid the room and board for the hijackers while in California.
While against that you pile the evidence against Iraq, whom you invaded.
.....hear the crickets anyone.
The path to reason doesnt start with
"whom can we blame for this other then the Saudis."
Hiding behind Clintons skirts wont help either. As it has turned out the Iraqi WMD programs and stockpiles where destroyed during his watch. He kept up the retoric against Iraq probably to justify the continued US overflights and military presense. Which is dishonest but well short of occupying the country.
then final act of delusion.
"being popular does not bring peace nor protect the innocent.
"
you are appeasing the Saudis as we speak. They are untouchable when any reasoned look at 9/11 would have very hard questions for them. You punish the Iraqis for what was done by Saudis.
could you imagine the uproar if even one of the 9/11 terrorists was Iraqi or associated with them. The whole thing was a saudi operation and you dont care cause George has told you not to care.
Canada has recieved more scrutiny and blame for the event then Saudi Arabia.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Saudi Princes pulled thier mony out of the US airlines involved days befor the attack.
Saudi intelligence agents paid the room and board for the hijackers while in California.
Hadn't seen these two before. Any links?
-
Pongo, it has been discussed at length. Americans would not have believed such a thing possible before 9-11 and would not have tolerated the steps that would have been necessary to prevent it. Bush-Clinton-Bush-Reagan-Carter, reach back as far as you like, but all of these guys faced a crisis from the muslim world, and yet in all that time not a single one of them did a single thing to prevent a terror attack such as 9-11.
Hindsight is so 20-20.