Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Octavius on February 11, 2004, 11:43:22 PM
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In this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=108692&referrerid=3089)
Comments? Feel free to post a reply in that thread. I must rally support for the P39 cause. :cool:
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I think the P39 would have been a war-winner if it had a 20mm cannon instead of the 37mm, the same engine the P51 had, and same type of airscoop.
But you might as well have a P51 then :)
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Before you ask P-39 as a plane that can fly as Russian fighter I'd prefere to see following aircrafts:
[list=1]
- I-16
- Yak-1, Yak-3
- MiG-1, MiG-3
I think they much more suitable for Early/Middle war Eastern front then P-39
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Before anything else, they should throw in variants of planes they already have.
Early war P38s for example, you'll not only get a more steamlined P38 but you'll also get your 37mm. :D
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Personally, I'd like to see LaGG-3 before P-39 for the Eastern front events and CT-setups. Though I sure like to see it some point I think VVS-plane set needs planes more badly then the american one.
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P-39D-2 with V-1710-63 rated at 1325 hp mil power and 1550 hp WEP, looks very nice :). Weights are ranging from 3550 kg ( P-39D as tested in USSR) to 3236 kg (special lightened modification of P-39Q stripped of the armor). But speeds and climb at WEP setting are questionable. P-39D made 498 kph at sea level at mil power of 1150 hp, P-39Q made 530-540 kph at sea level at WEP of 1420 hp. P-39D-2 at 1550 hp should be able to make something around 545-550 kph. And absolutely no info about climb at WEP power :(. And last but not least - plane turned very well - 17,7-18,7 seconds for P-39D, but radius and speed are not known.
Fast, agile and very deadly :).
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Or something like a P-63?
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Still want to see a p40-n.
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I think in light of the fact that we are top Heavy in American Iron and that their are many countrys and plane types that are are a bit more neaded would tend to put the P39 very low on my wish list for the CT or the SEA. I would not mind seeing it eveuntaly but in the short term I can think of at least a Dozen p,anes I would rather see first to plug holes in our plane set.
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Exactly how important was the P-39?...not just #'s...but impact?
From my limited knowledge it played a huge role at a critical time and was a plane of choice for some of the elite gaurds units. Even though it's an "american" plane it really isn't from a historical perspective...I'd say it was almost as important to the russians at the time of it's introduction as the P40 was to the flying tigers.
Again, my knowledge is limited to feel free to correct this opinion if incorrect.
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Apox. 10,000 P39's were built and about 5,000 went to the Russians I beleave, over all it was avery small percentage of the total soviet fighter force, presently in AH we have No early war Soviet fighters modeled at all, I much rahter see a realy Russian fighter than the P39.
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Mig1 - Yes
Mig3 - Yes
Ki-84 First, however....very very first
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Yes yes, I understand everyone would rather have 'plane x' over 'plane y' because 'reason x'.
I gave my reasons in the linked thread.
First off, I'm thinking in terms of what the CM team has to work with. The CT is second priority and Main Arena is by all means last (IMHO). Impact, numbers, statistics = blah. I think we would get the most "bang-for-buck" with this aircraft (N/Q models). ETO, PTO, and Mediterranean scenerios would have another aircraft to work with. It would be supplementing the small VVS planeset we have at the moment. Since updates used to come in waves with multiple aircraft in each update, I dont see why multiple Soviet made aircraft (MiG, LaGG, Ratta) can't be thrown in at the same time.
Second, I'm thinking in terms of myself! We all have that certain aircraft we're rooting for. Don't shoot down my thread to further your own agenda :D Make your own thread :D
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Octavius...I've said my piece, so now I'm making my peace...
Just gimme the GD P-39:aok
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Make your own thread :D
There was one already lurking here somewhere (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52235)... :)
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"First off, I'm thinking in terms of what the CM team has to work with. The CT is second priority and Main Arena is by all means last (IMHO). Impact, numbers,"
LOL, man thems fighten words boy:)
The CM's have slightly different neads then the CT does, the CT neads more balance in set up's we look for good plane match up's and when it come to wanting new planes we tend to think of ones that would help fill holes we have in the plane set, the P39 will Not help in the Pack in fact it will compound an already bad situation their unless more Japanese aircraft (or varients) are added, in Russia it would help to a certain extent, but hear I would much rather see more Russian planes added, and in the med it would not matter much, again we nead more Italian planes foir this theater.
When you talk of a plane for any other reasion than; hey it's my favorate type, which I can certainly understand, it is always at the expence of another type, to me the P39 is just yet another US plane that we dont realy nead right now and it would come (if it came now) at the expence of another more sorly neaded type, even for the CM's.
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Do we have any official list from HTC or probably submited request of planes that AH mostly needs?
What planes AH needs and its importance order for example:
[list=1]
- LaGG-3
- Yak-3
- Pe-2
- Ki-84
- I-16
- Yak-1
- MiG-1
- Ki-100
- B-29
- Gloster Meteor
- 109K-4
- P-80
I don't want to tell that that is the list - it is just example.
Can we get an asver from HTC what planes will be imlemented first, second third and most important When?
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The CM's (not the CT Staff) have submited their list for what they feal is most important to HTC, but afik, they colectively dont have anymore influance than the rest of us do.
HTC has never published a list of what they intend to add in the long term, they in the past way long ago when we used to actualy fget planes added to the game tell us when a model was going to be added as they compleated work on it, or on ocashion they let the comunity vote for what plane they wanted to be added from a short list. Like the Ta 152 was voted on, then when we voted to model the SBD Vall instead of the Helldiver Juddy.
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Can you or someone else publish that wish list of CMs stuff?
At least to know what should we expect?
Don't CT stuff want to make a similar wish list of planes?
At least HTC will listen to CMs more the to regular players ;)
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I dont have the list the CM's sent, but from what I heard was on it I hope they dont listen to them anymore than any of the rest of us.:)
Pyro I beleave ultimatly decideds what will be added, while I have personaly had some issue with plane choices in the past, I beleave over all that he has done an outstanding job, I also beleave we are a long way from seeing any new planes added to AH, I would gues not untill after AH2 is released will we see anything new.
One thing to consider is that I beleave that the New TOD areana will take precedent in terms of plane modeling, presently they realy only can just barely do a ETO set up in it and they will likely add a few new planes for that theater and then move on to flesh out the plane set for other theaters they do. ETO is their bread an butter it has mass apeal to the largely American market sothat as we can see from the present plane set in AH is whear I suspect their efforts will be geared toward, while I personaly would hope to see more of the other countrys modeled and represented, were likely to be eating ETO for dinner for a while.
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Originally posted by brady
Apox. 10,000 P39's were built and about 5,000 went to the Russians I beleave, over all it was avery small percentage of the total soviet fighter force, presently in AH we have No early war Soviet fighters modeled at all, I much rahter see a realy Russian fighter than the P39.
I guess my question is when did they arrive (in reasonable #'s) and what impact did they have (vs the other planes available at that moment)...
Somebody posted a "bio" on a soviet pilot who flew the P-16 then hurricane then P-39 (as well as la's)...he made it sound like the P-39 made a huge impact and was the 1st plane that gave them the ability to take on the 109's on even terms. Again...the flying tigers only had a "few" (100 or so??) P-40's but they sure made a big impact.
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P-39s would be competitive but not a dweeb ride. 37mm is always fun, moreso in AH where it is almost always a kill.
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Originally posted by humble
Somebody posted a "bio" on a soviet pilot who flew the P-16 then hurricane then P-39 (as well as la's)...he made it sound like the P-39 made a huge impact and was the 1st plane that gave them the ability to take on the 109's on even terms. Again...the flying tigers only had a "few" (100 or so??) P-40's but they sure made a big impact.
You make a big mistake - landlease planes were not popular at all in VVS.
The main disadvantge of VVS that more then half of its planes were I-16 that were outclassed in this period - like A5M2 outclassed by F4U-1D.
Yak-1,3 MiG-1,3 were much more popular and were more suitable for russian front then landlease planes. Actually if Hurricanes and P-40s couldn't much up with 109F when Yaks and MiG were better in this role. At least they were much more popular.
The main problem that there were no high numbers of modern planes at early stages of war and the tactics and pilots expirience was poor in comparison with LW.
Never try to think of P-40 or P-39 as the plane that can play role of early-mid war russian fighter - think of Yaks, MiGs and LaGGs
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Well P40's vs Nates would wouldent they:)
From Americas 100,000:
P. 196
DEc. 41-Aircrobas are taken out of RAF service they are labeled unsatisfactory. Deleveris stop at about 80 Aircraft and 179 British Aircraft are taken over by the US, 212 go to Russia and 54 of those are lost at sea while being delevered.( I beleave these are C models)
June 30th 1942Ninety three P-400 Aircraft have goten to Russia by this time.
Feb. 44 The peak inventory of P-39's in the USAAF inventory is reached 2,150 Aircobras are in service, A large number are used as trainers in the US.
Oct. 44, P39's in Soviet service are being replaced by Russian fighters.
Total P39 production represented aprox. 9.6 % of US fighter production.
Jun, 44; The Bell P-39 is going out of production after a total of 9558 units have been delivered. of this total 4,924 (aside from P 400's) have been allocated to Russia under lend lease. Approximately 4,758 A/C actually reach Russia.
Over all at any given time in Russia P39's acounted for a very small percentage of the total Soviet fighter force, all together they represented less than 4% of the Soviets total fighter force including all types.
I am shure at some place at at some time they did make a contrabution, particluarly impresening soviet airmen who were in some instances in more obsoliet types to begine with, I would certainly not liken their preformance to that of the P40 with the flying tigers.
Something else to consider is Just what model of the P39 would HTC do??? I doubt they would do the P-400 which would be best suited to the early war Russian plane set, likely we would get a later model; 7,000 of the total P39's built were the N and Q varients.The Q did not enter production till Mar of 43, the First M's in late Nov. of 42.
So if we did get a P39, my gues it would be the Q that was modeled, and likely unusable in most early war set up's in the CT anyway and redundante in the mid and later war set up's, and not helpfull balance wise in the PAC, unless we get some new toys for the empire in that theater first.
I am not saying I would not like to see it eveunataly, it is just that I can think of several planes that would be better in it's stead in the short term.
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Geez brady.
All I ask is that we keep these personal agendas in separate threads. You piss on my thread and throw negatives around. Thats poor campaigning :) We all know what you want - we've seen it many times in many other hijacked threads. I knew this was coming and I regret even posting this in the Aircraft & Vehicles forum. To me, your posts are the equivalent of negative political campaign ads we see so often on the tube.
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This is not personal, I can compleatly simpatise with some one wanting a plane simply because it is their favorate, campaging for somthing that is intended or offered up as somthing for all of us howeaver is somthing entirely different, I want a well rounded and globaly representitaive planeset, anything that suports or adds to our presently top heavy US plane set is somtihing I will likely take an oppset stand on, their are exceptions planes like the Coranado for example come to mind. It is intended as a negative to be shure, not personaly though, for whats it worth i wish you well, I just personaly hope we dont see the P39 anytime soon for all the right reasions.
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Originally posted by brady
I just personaly hope we dont see the P39 anytime soon for all the right reasions.
I had mentioned before that with the previous updates, multiple planes are released simultaneously. The absolute best case scenerio would be an update with the planes you feel are necessary and also the planes I feel necessary. Of course, thats not going to happen because that would include 50+ planes :)
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Ya, and were likely (as I mentioned above) to see a plane adation composed mostly of types intened for the first TOD, frankely I would be suprised to see the I-16 or any number of other types before we see the P39, simply because it is a US plane ,howeaver I will be disapointed as ushual if this does occure :)
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Originally posted by artik
You make a big mistake - landlease planes were not popular at all in VVS.
The main disadvantge of VVS that more then half of its planes were I-16 that were outclassed in this period - like A5M2 outclassed by F4U-1D.
Yak-1,3 MiG-1,3 were much more popular and were more suitable for russian front then landlease planes. Actually if Hurricanes and P-40s couldn't much up with 109F when Yaks and MiG were better in this role. At least they were much more popular.
The main problem that there were no high numbers of modern planes at early stages of war and the tactics and pilots expirience was poor in comparison with LW.
Never try to think of P-40 or P-39 as the plane that can play role of early-mid war russian fighter - think of Yaks, MiGs and LaGGs
Couldnt disagree with you more...
here's my "source"...
P39 & other info on russian front
A. S. Nikilay Gerasimovich, could the Cobra really contend with the Bf-109G and FW-190 in aerial combat?
N. G. Yes. The Cobra, especially the Q-5, took second place to no one, and even surpassed all the German fighters.
I flew more than 100 combat sorties in the Cobra, of these 30 in reconnaissance, and fought 17 air combats. The Cobra was not inferior in speed, in acceleration, nor in vertical or horizontal maneuverability. It was a very balanced fighter.
http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/part1.htm
I'd love to see yours
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In
ATTACK OF THE AIRACOBRAS
SOVIET ACES
AMERICAN P-39S
by Dmitriy Loza
The Soviet pilots who flew the P-39 felt that is was better than any German fighter in horizontal maneuvering, "not once in countless aerial battles did the Germans attempt to conduct an engagement in a turn", and was also used in a "boom & Zoom" vertical mode, with emphsis in keeping speed high.
The P-39 is called:
"...with the competent P-39, a fast, maneuverable,and powerfuly armed (with both cannon and machine guns) fighter that was equal in speed to the Bf-109 and FW-190 fighters in use at the time".
Soviet pilots felt the 37mm cannon was efective in the air-to-air role.
The plane is a lot better than common belief would have.
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I'd for sure vote for any and all P39's. It be a really nice plane and maybe a good ol' perk farmer.
230G
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I'm pretty sure that we cannot expect any new aircraft to appear until after AH2 is released.
Maybe in the first AH2 update....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'm pretty sure that we cannot expect any new aircraft to appear until after AH2 is released.
Maybe in the first AH2 update....
My regards,
Widewing
That's what Octavius said, that's what he's asking for.
-Sik