Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on September 29, 2000, 11:00:00 PM
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After some weeks off, I came back on AH and in my baby, the P47. I was surprised, I have the feeling that something is wrong with my love. Not the new E retention thing but more that the FM has been tone down.
I know some of you hated the P47 telling he was overmodeled in turns, but now I have the feeling everything is tone down except the amo.
The other day I could only see a Spit run away from me at 15K level (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) .. same for a F4U-C. I took a spit to 15K, TAS is slightly faster than P47, same for a F4U with a single drop tank. I don't know if this is "right" but I'm surprised by that, even the Typhoon handles 'better' than the current P47.
I saw nothing into HTC readme on the patches. I'd like to share my opinion with other dedicated P47 drivers, did you noticed a change?
I may look like whining, but you guys have to understand that the P47 is my fav WW2 plane and I fly this one exclusively. I'm a bit saddened and intriged by his new performances, I'm just wondering if it's "right". If it is, all that is left for me is to grab to 25K, make 2 passes and run away... oh... that's true... "any other" fighter is faster than me now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (actually I'm not smiling)
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Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/sig-frenchy.jpg)
SFRT Aces High web page http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm (http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm)
SFRT pages http://www.sfrt.net (http://www.sfrt.net)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 09-29-2000).]
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howdy french im back after close to a week my self total sytem melt down but back ane better than beore . look forward to seeing you in that big wallowing target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and i am smiling
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frenchy nothing changed on the P-47 from 1.03 to 1.04...
this may be the problem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
however I have tested the Jugs top speed with wep on and off and climb performance and it seems to be a bit slow at most altitudes by maybe 4-5 mph compared to the AH chart.
however climb performance is exactly as the chart shows
since now everything dives and zooms as good as the jug the jugs two redeeming features... dive and zoom performance is of no use.
and if you turn the jug at all for a shot on a maneuvering target you loose all your e
it cant out zoom anything below 15k with co e, f4u, p51, n1k2 all dive as well or better than the p47
basically if you want to fly this plane and live you have to grab to 25k+ where the jug still rules the sky but if a p51 comes along above you better be ready to do some of that "pilot toejam" or your toast as he can easily out turn out dive and out climb and out run ya.
but at 30k the jug still kicks ass
however no one flies at 30k because there is no LW determined to strike at buff boxes and no need for p47s with awsome high altitude performance to defend them. just a bunch of scrambled bandits that will dive away when in danger.
the P-47 still kicks bellybutton if you have and you keep an altitude advantage.
but you need chaos and oportunity to score kills against unweary bad guys since its so easy to maneuver out of the way now.
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Normally I call BS on most of the "my plane is porked" arguments. But I have to say that the P-47's are significantly easier to kill.
I had one come in on me with e.. He dove below me and I split s as he pulled up inside of the maneuver and started to climb. I came around and followed him up and was suprised as I gained on him. It may have been that he kept too much elevator in the maneuver.. but I was suprised anyways.
He dove away and I stayed about 3k above him. As he leveled I began to dive and found myself gaining on him. In an F4u-1c. It had never happened to me before.
He then began scissoring, a move I used to find difficult to deal with from a p-47. I found it easy to counter as I was able to climb up over him with ease. I was then able to dive in on him as he stalled in another turn and scored the win.
I can accept a couple of mistakes by a pilot.. but this plane really seemed to be an entirely different handling craft.
Just an observation.
AKDejaVu
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I know I don't get kills flying that plane anymore. I figured I lost my touch - or what little I had.
-Westy
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I loved that plane, it's parked now. Right next to the once awesome 205.
The FM has changed so much in 6 months on 1 plane, or 4, or whatever, I just fly the "riki niki likity kill everything but a spitty." Saves all the grief and confusion.
Fatty can't even remember to turn tracers back on for the OSTI runs, I don't know how you all keep up with these FM's.
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Note to Frenchy; this isnot directed at you, but a chance to get back at the allierte schweinhunden.
WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE
Booo-buttern'-hoooo
"My plane is porked." WAAAAH
Well, that has been the response to just about every question I've asked about LW fm's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Heheheh, MAN, that felt good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hi
I dont know if the numbers are right but P47 pilots in RL tended to stay high as they knew they could be outperformed by German fighters at lower to medium alts. This isnt meant as some sort of slap to the alleid pilots or planes but thats how it was in WW2.
That said 47 kicked bellybutton in ground attack.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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It doesn`t feel right to me either.
Citabria said:
"frenchy nothing changed on the P-47 from 1.03 to 1.04..."
Possibly,but the jugs E retention *feels* worse to me in 1.04. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I fly the 47 most of the time too. I havn't really noticed it being less than it was as much as the other planes being more than they were. It may be a bit slower but in b&z it feels pretty much the same to me.
I don't get many kills to begin with, not that good a pilot, but my K/D ratio doesn't feel any different. I don't keep up with my scores so don't really have that to tell me much.
I fly it in such a manner as to engage targets when I have a hugh advantage. Not much sense getting down in the mud with it, most everything out-turns it.
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MarkAT
"It is not the critic who counts,
it is the man in the arena..."
Teddy Roosevelt
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"..most everything out-turns it." For me that was always true. What I would do is roll that tub (looks to the sky, "Thanks for that tip Johnson!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) into an enemy bogy. Doesn't seem to roll like it used to. Or, as has been offered, maybe the FM changes have made other aircraft more nimble and the roll isn't such an advantage anymore.
Not a whine StSanta. My posts are plain observation and adding to the discussion. I'm more certain it's me, than the FM. Nail me down as for having blind trust in Pyro's work. If I really wanted to sound like one of the LW "contingent" I'd preface the whine with "this blatant anti-USAAF bias" and add in a sprinkling of "it's part of a damn LW conspiracy" here and there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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Have to agree with you Frenchy.....something is definitely awry with the P47.
I have read article after article of interviews with actual Jug pilots, and the one common theme was that the Jug would outrun and outturn the 109G-series and the FW190A-series.
From an article in the March 2000 edition of the magazine WORLD WAR II:
"By the end of 1943, the P-47D had ironed out most of the Thunderbolt's deficiences and was proving it's worth over New Guinea as well as Europe. Not only could it overtake both the FW-190A and Me-109G in level flight, it could outmaneuver them both at altitudes above 15,000 feet. And if worst came to worst, neither German fighter had a chance of catching a Thunderbolt if its pilot resorted to diving away." (Try outdiving a 190A5 and watch him gain on you in the dive......makes ya wonder, huh? It ain't gonna happen in 1.04...the Jug's ability to dive away from danger is no longer there)
Since the 1.04 version hit, I have found it a lot harder to get kills in the Jug. I know I am far from the best pilot, even in the Jug.
But I went holding my own in a fight in the Jug to currently hoping no B17 came along and got on my 6......the plane feels that sluggish. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Frenchy, you and I had some awesome P47 v P47 fights before 1.04 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)......the Jug could hold it's own against any other plane in the arena. Fights like those are a thing of the past with the current FM, as somehow the Jug is an underdog against almost anything but maybe the JU88.
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 09-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 09-30-2000).]
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Heheheh Westy, now you know how *I* feel.
I am guilty by association. Because I am a luftwabble, I must very precisely express what I feel is wrong, and even then, people build up strawmen and push them over.
Sure is a lot less P-47's around. Or A5's. We don't see many G10's either.
I've condeded that maybe the A5 ws closer to the numbers than the rest, and therefore it got a relatively minor "boost" with 1.04. The same might be true about the P-47.
But, as Verm has told me many times, give me NUMBERS. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/t/toles/9jg54.gif)
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"But, as Verm has told me many times, give me NUMBERS."
Can't. That's why I'll never point the finger and say something is wrong or incorrect. I'll just say the planes doesn't feel like it used to. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Ok, I will be the first nay sayer.
In 1.03 both the A5 and the P47 seemed to suffer the same problem, they both retained E relatively too well compared to the rest of the planeset, in line with their physical characteristics and historical record.
I even flew the P47 for a week or two, and I admitt that the thing was TOO good in E retention.
In 1.04 the A5 was on the list of bug fixs. So was the P47 fixe too? *shrugs* I don't know. But it sounds like it.
Guys, the P47 should be at its best at either high altitude, due to its turbosupercharger, just like the P-38. Or on ground attack sorties due to its big payload and extreme robustness.
The only time it should be a good dogfighter at low to medium altitudes, is if you engage with an advantage, and then hit and run.
Its not fast, its very large and heavy, and accelerates slowly. Basically it dives well, and its got alot of guns, plus its very tough.
Now, I haven't done any kind of controlled testing, so I can't say one way or the other if its correct or not. But it sounds to me like the P-47 is finally fitting into the planeset the way it should.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Ok, all I asked is if it's normal that the P47 top speed wep on at 15K should be slightly below from the one of the Spit IX?
Notice I never talked about turn or climb or acceleration ability. (I don't expect to turn as well as a spit, I don't expect to outclimb a 109, I don't expect to out-accelerate a Niki...) I'm ready to take the P47 as it is in turn acceleration and climb.
I was just surprised that it was so slow in level flight. Basically I can't even try to dogfight a bit because as soon as I disengage, even if I can escape 1.5-2K away, the Spit is catching back with me in level flight. (And if the spit catches back with me, no need to mention any other AH aircraft).
But if Vermillon says it's ok, then I trust him as I just read pilot reports about the P47, never had perfs about it.
Towd, ur revenge has finally come! I will stick to my ahsmatic P47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) maybe I will still find a way to trick you with the fat slow one (tell me about a chalenge).
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 09-30-2000).]
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Frenchy the performance charts on the www.hitechcreations.com (http://www.hitechcreations.com) web page look reasonable to me. The problem is that there seems to be some discrepancy between the charts and the performance we are seeing. Pyro has acknowledged the problem, so I think we will see a fix soon.
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I still haven't noticed any degredation in P47's performance, and I'll still take it hands down over F4U for everything (ground targets included) except ostwinds.
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Frenchy I gotta say that I am inclined to believe that either the P-47 was toned down a bit, or several other AC got a shot in the arm. Used to be I could boom and zoom with it till either another high copn arrived or I made a mistake. The P-47 should convert its speed to the most altiutde out of the entire planeset. It was known for its zoom. Robert Johnson said in his book he could walk a way from a spit in a zoom ( not a climb) and he also stated its roll rate was outstanding ( not so in any sim Ive seen). Now when it firsty showed its face in 1.03 it was a true beast to be contended with. But not anymore. I dont feel as confident in it and I am very happy when a good number of my squad is around for the mutual protection.
ammo
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Dear Vermillon
Ok all I got to compare or should I say to guess is this book that I just bought : "Fighting Aircraft of WW2", Editor Karen Levenrington.
They say: P47-D25 2,300 HP
Spit MK IX 1,660 HP
F4U-1 (not D) 2,000 HP
I know that HP is not everything, but I would had expected at 15K the P47 being at least a bit faster than the Spit IX at top level speed.
For the tests I did in AH, not that it means anything but full wep, 15K and 50% fuel (I believe 50% fuel have different weight depending on aircraft) :
P47-D30 310 KIAS, 380 KTAS
Spit9 310 KIAS, 390 KTAS (?... go figure this red line).
Once again, would anyone have some numbers about top speed at 15K Spit/P47 please?
I read a couple of pilot reports about how P47 handles, well... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) not much I can learn about some say it's a rock, some say it can outturn any LW plane, some say in the middle blahblahblah (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
See you soon in my P47, even if it's a juicy target now, I will make u sweat for the kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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p47D30 should do 394mph TAS according to HTC performance chart with wep at 15k
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-30-2000).]
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Hi
I still think it boils down to the fact that the P47s were excellent high altitude planes due to their ability to maintain lots of power at great heigths. They were not so stellar at lower to medium levels like around 15K. There the other planes such as Spit IX or 190/109 did not loose so much power due to high alts. Ive read accounts from both the German JG26 and American B17 crews that consistently support this. JG26 pilots often reffered to 47s as "non-intervenors" as they would merrily cruise along at 30K, making few attempts at fighting or coming lower. B17 crews were often pissed at 47 pilots who did just the same, while they were being shredded by LW fiters, apparently P38s were more eager to mix it up though. Most of the great big 47 perfomnance numbers start around 25k which is much higher than most fights occur in the MA sice version 1.04. There were reasons for them to stay so high in RL, maybe they are correctly modeled in AH?
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Frenchy, I haven't done any testing on the plane in the game.
But my "America's Hundred Thousand" (the best book on American Fighters) shows that the P47D25 should do between 390-400mph TAS at 15k. This is very similar to the performance shown on the AH help pages.
What you should do is test the plane in the game. Load it up with 100% fuel, but no external ordinance. Climb to 15k, and then turn on WEP, and wait until the speed stabilizes (usually 3-5 minutes).
If its between 390-400 TAS, it is in the right ball park.
Note to Santa and Fishu: See guys, Its not just Luftwaffe aircraft I pick on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Heheheh Verm <S!> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/t/toles/9jg54.gif)
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Dear Vermillon,
I followed your advise and did some test to compare numbers between the books I found at the library, HTC charts and flight test at 100% fuel.
I found something that maybe be abnormal. While doing a 5000 feet level test I had a TAS of 345 MPH. When I kicked the Wep on till Wep exausted I gained 5 MPH only (350 TAS). I don't know if it's normal but I noticed that the F4 is gaining more than 20 MPH when the Wep is on at 5,000 feet.
Maybe my feeling about the P47 being "ashmatic" comes from the fact that using the Wep doesn't change the performances as significantly as other airplanes. I'de like to have your point of view on this, is it something normal for the P47-D30 or could it be a sneacky HTC code error?
As far as the tests comparing the data I found at the library (jane's whatever WW2 planes and Military Aircrafts), HTC P47-D30 speed charts and my flight tests, here is what I got: (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Test at 30,000 feet:
book 428 MPH
HTC Chart 418 (Wep off) -- 430 (Wep on)
flight 405 (Wep off) -- 418 (Wep on)
Test at 5,000 feet:
book 363 MPH
HTC Chart 346 (Wep Off) -- 360 (Wep on)
flight 345 (Wep off) -- 350 (Wep on)
Looks like that at 30K the P47D-30 is slower than HTC chart and the chart matches my book data "Wep on".
At 5K, HTC chart is matching my book data when "Wep on", but the test flight again is about 10 MPH short with "Wep on".
Vermillon, HTC and AH comunauty, I would be more than happy to share any data and comments (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(I did tests in flight comparing speeds I got from those books for Spit9 at 20K, 30K and they matched great, nothing to say there). Starting to put my nose in 'theroritical numbers', I'm impressed with HTC good job... soooooo big salute, I've no idea how they do it, but they do it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Be safe all, help my Radial Baby (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Frenchy.