Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wmaker on February 12, 2004, 02:38:53 PM
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Hello!
In the skin submission guidelines post Skuzzy stated the following:
Originally posted by Skuzzy
We will not accept skins containing the swatiska.
I assume this concrens the swastikas carried by the military aircraft of the german Luftwaffe and not the Von Rosen Cross carried by the aircraft of the Finnish Air Force?
I know there has been Bf109G-2 with Finnish Air Force markings since the AH1 beta so I just wanted to make sure I understood this correctly.
Thanks in advance!
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Err, so no kill markings at all? :(
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Use the Balkenkreuz in place of the swastika that'd work good.
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Unfortunately, in the case of some planes like my Meyer's A-5, the absence of the swastika leaves a pretty large space open.
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Anyone have any ideas on a substitution that's look appropriate?
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how bout a big fat purple dinosaur?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Use the Balkenkreuz in place of the swastika that'd work good.
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Unfortunately, in the case of some planes like my Meyer's A-5, the absence of the swastika leaves a pretty large space open.
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Anyone have any ideas on a substitution that's look appropriate?
I didn't ask any substitutions for swastika for german planes. I asked if Finnish Air Force planes can use the blue Von Rosen Cross I have as my avatar. :) Just like we have now in the Bf109G-2 in AH1.
The fact that german planes lack the swastika from the tail doesn't bother me at all anymore as I've flown WB and AH awhile now. IMO the best way is just to leave the tail without any substituting symbol on german planes.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
how bout a big fat purple dinosaur?
I would find that offensive. And I'm pretty sure it's banned in a number of countries.
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I'm guessing since we haven't banned you for using the Finnish cross in your avatar that it's ok to use it on your plane skins. ;)
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LOL Superfly!! :D
Thanks for the info!! :)
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btw superfly, that b17 is a masterpiece. The inside is very very nice.
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With all due respect and no offense meant to anyone.
Might I ask the logic behind not having the swastika on the German tails even though it might be historically accurate to have them there?
Is this just political correctness at its usual worst?
Or are there really that many people that it would really bother?
Nobody is disputing or condoning the atrocities of the Nazis.
And I fully understand and agree we cant have Nazi squads as that would indeed be blatantly disrespectful of the Jewish/polish/ Russian etc. communities
But in essence aren't these Nazi planes? After all Just to be in the military you had to sign an oath of allegiance to Hitler.
If that's the case then perhaps we shouldn't have the planes either
On some planes wouldn't it be historically accurate to have them there?
If I were Jewish I wouldn't object to the insignia being there if for no other reason then to be historically accurate.
Plus it would provide more incentive or at least make me more hell-bent to shoot every one of them down that I saw.
Hell I'd probably up just to hunt and shoot them down specific.
But I'd want them there. I'd want to remember and be reminded.
Now really to me personally I don't care if they are there or not.
I think they should be for the sake of historical accuracy but when it comes right down to it. It does not bother me that they aren't one way or the other.
I am curious though on the thoughts of our jewish/polish/russian ect communities their thoughts about it.
So just out of pure curiosity.
What DO you folks think?
How many of you would object of German planes with the historically accurate Swastika markings and why?
By the same token. How many would NOT object and why?
Please no flames. And I know that it isn't going to change policy one way or the other.
I am simply curious as to the thoughts of the afore mentioned communities.
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You know I am a Jew.
And I think you are doing the game a dis service by NOT have the correct markings!
If It was a german plan and It had a swatika then why not put it on for the historical aspect of it all.
Not putting it on does not change history and does not mean it never happend(holocost).
Lets keep It accuarate and real people.
I Im not offended by It at all:aok
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They're doing it because it's illegal for games in Germany to have any resemblance of "Constitutionally Illegal" institutions.
While I disagree with it, it'll let more people play the game.
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True but the game is based in Texas not germany.
So I would guess it would have to follow US law?
Just seems a little sillt to me I mean My family will never forget the holocoust but time to move on.
You can put a monkey in a suite but when its all said and done he's still just a monkey.
The world needs to stop sugar coating everything.
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Originally posted by mrblack
True but the game is based in Texas not germany.
So I would guess it would have to follow US law?
Just seems a little sillt to me I mean My family will never forget the holocoust but time to move on.
You can put a monkey in a suite but when its all said and done he's still just a monkey.
The world needs to stop sugar coating everything.
I'm Israeli and Jew,
and I would prefere to fly in AH without Nazi Swatics even if it makes the skins more "historically accurate"
The little simbol on 109s tail will not change the way 109 looks but it do change how I and others will relate to this one because for me and my family it relates to Nazizm not just WW2.
I think it is right not to put Nazi Swastics on German planes.
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Mr.Black et al, we can agree/disagree all day since everyone has a difference stance upon this issue, concerning emotional feelings, historic accuracy, moral values etc etc.
But before any of that, it's a purely legal issue concerning some of the countries which outlaws the usage of the Nazi symbol. As a game that needs a commercial value, it's pretty much set and done issue.
Now, HTC can introduce something like a "German version" of AH, but unlike IL2/FB which is a boxed game with limited MP capabilities, AH is a MMOG which has a central basis where people from all over the world connect to a single spot. Unless they develop a sort of a special blocking system for users where the swastika is outlawed, it's not gonna work.
And I have a pretty good feeling HTC ain't gonna invest any time and effort into making something like that.
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True .
not meant to offend anyone.
I have NO love for NAZI's either.
But I do think It time to move foward and with an eye on the past
We can make sure the souls of over 6 million jews will never be forgotten.
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Although I don't mind seeing swastikas on German aircraft, I can understand why they're not included on an international game.
Apart from the obvious of people being offended by the Nazi symbol, there are also possible legal issues. Imagine if a country or two tried to sue HTC to ensure that their countries couldn't access AH because of the swastika. That nearly happened to Yahoo with servers in France having Nazi material. Of course HTC is based in the US but I'm sure legal experts have ways and means of trying to enforce 'laws' etc., blah blah blah. Whichever way you look at it, it is a very sensitive issue/area and I think the safest course of action is one that doesn't provoke peoples anger, beliefs and attitudes.
Check the following thread, sooner or later the legal system might actually prevent access....
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1036630517051
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This thread never was about what is being discussed here.
Just Stop it now please.
Skuzzy, this thread has served its purpose in giving me the info I wanted. I would like to get it locked if possible before it turns into somethin no one wants.
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It's a very valid argument Wmaker.
But the real reason that Germany banned the Swastika was because they want to forget that they killed 20+ million people. They want their people to forget it. They want other nations to forget the millions of people dead at the hands of Germans.
But, history is history, trying to forget one part of it still doesn't change the fact that they did what they did.
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You're right lasersailor.
The point is this; "should flying a recreated vehicle in a virtual reality world, which contains a certain historic symbol/icon of unfortunate past, be considered an attempt of reenactment of the past, and thus, violating the issues in regards to what the offensive historic symbol/icon stands for?"
It's a complicated issue - everyone would agree on that fact. The above question alone, probably is worth a debate for months for historians and philosophers.
So, to leave the head-hurtin' debate out of this, we should look it at a purely legal perspective... and perhaps discuss possible 'work-arounds'
For instance, the following pic is a skin I'm currently working on:
(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620040215091610.jpg)
Now, since there are people with different opinions here, I must ask: would the symbol looking like the Roman numeral "X", be acceptable? Is it still offensive?
As a skinner, I have the opinion that skins can also be considered as a sort of a practical artwork. So, in compromise of the issues discussed above, would a substitute be accepted?
Because, from an aesthetical point of view, leaving out the swastika makes a large blank area on the vertical stab, which makes the plane look awkward.
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I doubt that it would be listed as illegal (or in HTC case banned)...but it sure looks stupid. Please take no offence...but it just goofy. I understand HT reasoning, and I would have no choice but to make the same decisions if this were my game. But we gotta use the accepted 'plus sign thingy' we have now....
Its ashame in many ways, but we all know the bozos on both sides of this issue would make life just ever so much fun (I gotta stop letting my kid watch Hey Arnold).
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How about just a diamond?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_245_1076823851.jpg)
Or perhaps a more German cross, while not being Nazi.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_245_1076823869.jpg)
I think this is my favourite. An ace of spades.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_245_1076823903.jpg)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's a very valid argument Wmaker.
But the real reason that Germany banned the Swastika was because they want to forget that they killed 20+ million people. They want their people to forget it. They want other nations to forget the millions of people dead at the hands of Germans.
But, history is history, trying to forget one part of it still doesn't change the fact that they did what they did.
Obviously again you don't have ever spoke to a german nor understand their point of view.
This sentence :
They want their people to forget it. They want other nations to forget the millions of people dead at the hands of Germans.
Is incredibly harsh and stupid.
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Originally posted by mrblack
True but the game is based in Texas not germany.
So I would guess it would have to follow US law?
Just seems a little sillt to me I mean My family will never forget the holocoust but time to move on.
You can put a monkey in a suite but when its all said and done he's still just a monkey.
The world needs to stop sugar coating everything.
Originally posted by mrblack
True .
not meant to offend anyone.
I have NO love for NAZI's either.
But I do think It time to move foward and with an eye on the past
We can make sure the souls of over 6 million jews will never be forgotten.
as lawfull citizen of US you should know same symbols are forbinden in america too. Guess who establish this law in german y ;)
anyway i think you should read something more then history book for first grade. Holocaust kill not only jewsh but over 20 mln peoples of all nation. This people should be never forgotten too
@Kwessa, any kinde of cross ar any similar symbol to this on website posted by lucull wil be illegal. If somone like to sue anyone.
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Gentlemen drop the politics in this form please.
The resone we don't alow swaticas is pretty simple the hassle of alowing them is not worth any gain from having them in the game.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Gentlemen drop the politics in this form please.
The resone we don't alow swaticas is pretty simple the hassle of alowing them is not worth any gain from having them in the game.
HiTech
Historical accuracy , I mean isnt that what this game is all about. Stupid arse PC horsechit
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Yeah that's it. Keep egging him on Pfunk. That's a great idea! :rolleyes:
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Folks,
As per my questions . I specifically asked "no flames please"
I asked two questions. Why it wasnt allowed and more importantly.
Who of the nationalities/relegeons that were victims of the Nazis would be bothered by it or not bothered by the use of it if it were allowed.
The question was made out of pure curiousity on my part and not to start any kind of political or legal debate or flamefest.
So lets not do either shall we.
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.. and I believe most of it has been answered already.
In the political/philosophical/ethical sense, after the experience of the Nazi Party's legal rise of power in 1933, people have come to realize that democracy is not laissez-faire. It doesn't just naturally rule out destructive forces of power. Assuming that people will just not vote for racists or Nazis, and they will fizzle out by themselves without any poweful intervention, is a lazy dream.
Thus, more aggressive intervention from the state has become the agenda after the Nazi experience. The people have entrusted power to the government to protect and uphold certain principles, and the government will use that power. Letting a political party thrive which denounces the very essentials of democracy itself, is something like a political suicide of democracy.
Thus, for that reason, anything leading to Nazism is prohibited. That's the basic philosophy behind in making certain symbols illegal, in European states. It might be a bit different in the US tho'
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In the legal/commercial sense, allowing the symbol to be used is gonna cause some serious head-aches. Thus, it's left out in games. Just like the ol' saying in our country; "don't touch shi* if you don't want to get dirty" :D
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I think this thread is proof positive of the wisdom of keeping Nazi symbolism out of the game.
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and maybe a few of the subscribers too.
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No need to argue this, it's been done to death. Just do a search and I'm sure you can fill your day with repetitive reading. No matter which side you may align with, every valid argument that you have has been expressed in multitude and countered in multitude with every valid argument from the other side.
It's already been stated that this is not the place for this, but past experience tells me if the porch light is not turned off on this thread, the moths won't be able to resist.