Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on February 13, 2004, 09:36:07 AM
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Sick to death of being busted up by Spit V 800 yard shots. Everything I have read about real life WW2 gunnery suggests that these shots are BS. But in AH it seems like a matter of routine for a novice players to get their kills this way. (Not saying the guy in the attached film is a novice) The usual formula is, when being chased, to pull a hard turn to the side (which in RL would be about 6G) and then as the enemy pulls up after the missed shot, the Spit V pulls another 6G turn to realign with the enemy, and blasts him from about 600 yards or more. I myself once got a kill at 1000+ yards; the joke is it was an accidental trigger squeeze.
The Spit legend. Douglas Bader, once described how he squeezed the trigger in response to a Me109 about 800 yards away, but released the trigger immediately when he realised how foolish this was. By what he later described as something of a remote fluke, he got the Me109 engine smoking - much to his own surprise, and to the even greater surprise of his wingmen!
In AH it's routine. In a recent clash in the CT of 109G6 v Spit V, the Spit Vs were really cleaning up by playing this gamey card to the full. I can accept that an occasional (but much weakened owing to the distance) ping might occur at such ranges, but it should not be possible to shoot a guy's wing off from that range.
OK, I know it's a flat rate game, and the noobs have got to be made to feel like they can succeed from Day1; perish the thought that they actually have to spend a week or two learning gunnery skills. :rolleyes: So give 'em an easy plane that turns really well... but adding to that the ability to get these 600-800 yard shots is taking it too far.
WB saw the error of this - and revised the gunnery beginning with 2.6 so that you had to get much closer - 200 yards, max 300 yards. That's pretty much how it is for the 109s in AH. So why the 800 yard shots for the Spit V?
I've attached a film of this BS being taken to the nth degree. OK, n-1. The film is here (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/film142-bbs.zip). View it in external view mode, with icons turned on.
(PS the reason the Spit didn't suffer greater damage from me was that two of my guns were u/s after I had been de-acking the field. But that's beside the point.)
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The gunnery model in AH2 seems to be better.
Camo
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So; you pull of a tactital mistake while attacking a lower and slower Spit which leaves you hanging right above him in planform; and who promptly shot you in the bellybutton with the best guns of WWII.
You then post how even an expert like Bader was tempted to make similar shots; which were then proved to be effective; and you come here screaming BS....
Here's a clue: the first time the Spit pulled a well timed lead turn on you and peppered your tail with .303's should have told you you were too slow for your flying pattern ; whereupon you should have made the decision to get aggresive on the deck; which the Hog is perfectly capable of; or extending to rebuild your advantage.
The rest is WAAAAAAA he shot MEEEEEE!!!!!!
Spitwhiner.
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Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
The gunnery model in AH2 seems to be better.
Camo
I smoked a 109 at somewhere between 600 and 800 last night whilst in a Spit V. (in AH2)
Seekers right tho...............we know it ............... its clear that we can shoot at longer distances for nearly all guns..................plus lag error could always be upto 100 and a film will only show what your FE saw..........
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seeker, as a matter of fact I shot him and got kill credit. I splashed down with no ailerons. I had to truncate the film because of my effing and blinding afterwards, so you don't get to see that. :lol
In this game, a Spit V can make a 180° turn in little more than 6 seconds. So from whatever angle I had approached that Spit on the first pass, he could make a hard turn to put me in his 12. He probably would have died on the first pass had all my guns been working.
Bader flew the Spit 1a with float carb; I don't know if he flew the Spit V in combat.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Bader flew the Spit 1a with float carb; I don't know if he flew the Spit V in combat.
So he got a 109 smoking at 800 with 303's.
And you protest shock when a gamer in no fear of his life and without any physiological distractions nor carburetion worries makes the same shot with Hispano's.
Beetle; thou doth protest too much.
In this game, a Spit V can make a 180° turn in little more than 6 seconds.
So we both agree the Spit is a predictably nippy turner; flying in predicatable conditions. You know this; yet you fail to incluse this in your geometry calculations in the attack.
In otherwords; you're not flying with interlect; but with feeling.
Admirable; but short sighted; as your film shows.
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Nope. I've had my share of 600yd BS kills. Last time I did that, I apologised to my quarry for gaming the game, as gaming the game it surely is.
My career k/d against the Spit V is 3.36/1, so I'm not too worried about them. But those 800yd shots irk me. Especially when you position yourself over a con, he pulls his nose up and hangs there spraying away, and then your wing falls off.
And I said Bader got a lucky shot! A one-pinger that drew engine smoke. I don't recall anyone routinely shooting wings off from 800 yards. :rolleyes:
I'll requote a passage from a friend of mine - WW2 military historian. Yes, the gunnery is way easier both in WB and AH then in real life.
WW2OL is actually a bit closer to reality.
Sims in general do not model most or any of the matters which affect the
shooting. Airplanes differed a lot even in gun mounting, which already afffected hwo the bullets start their flight. Weapons never get hot, which worsens the accuracy - thats why in RL pilots shoot short bursts, to allow the guns cool off. Then all the kazillion details about bullets in flight. In real life practical shooting distances were generally 200 meters. There was a reason why pilots were taught to shoot close - that way you could actually hit.
You got to remember as well, that a fleeing target is fast. It runs away from the bullet, which means the longer the range, the longer way bullet must fly. 800 yards shot is not 800 yards for the bullet, it is 1000-1200 years. At those ranges bullet has lost much of its velocity.
When it hits it must pierce the airplane fuselage. Wartime tests showed bullet loses about 70% of its piercing power just on penetrating the plane skin - as it is not 90 degree penetration. After that it has much less chances on piercing critical components or armor.
So yes - 800 meter shots are total bull****.
Have you ever thought about the bullet penetration in games? I am 100% certain that when you shoot at 800 yards, the bullet penetration and kinetic energy is modeled fully, as 100 yards or so shot! The energy of the bullet should be less in longer ranges, but by my arse, they're just as efficient when they strike at 800 yards as in 100 yards and that just isn't correct.
But no can do. It's a game. It makes you mad but gotta live with it, if you want to enjoy flying.
My strategy for that attack on the Spit is only flawed in terms of AH gunnery. If it was modelled correctly, I'd have been OK. But it isn't, and I wasn't.
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Have you ever thought about the bullet penetration in games? I am 100% certain that when you shoot at 800 yards, the bullet penetration and kinetic energy is modeled fully, as 100 yards or so shot! The energy of the bullet should be less in longer ranges, but by my arse, they're just as efficient when they strike at 800 yards as in 100 yards and that just isn't correct.
Bader did it at 800, using the 303. So you've provided proof that the ammo modeling is spot on.
And the Spit V has Hispano's. That's a cannon; not a kinetic energy weapon.
So yes; in this scenario; using the information you provide I'd have to agree that range is to all practical purposes irrelevant.
IF he hit's you, he does damage. An Hispano round doesn't need to penetrate; that's the point of having them. And it only takes one or two rounds.
The key is not to be in a position to be hit.
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My strategy for that attack on the Spit is only flawed in terms of AH gunnery.
But you are in an AH world..
Beet1e, you are making a very basic mistake in this film.. a simple fix though to avoid this in the future.
After you make your last pass on the spit, you maintain your turn to the left, which is the same direction as the spit executed his brief break turn, then turned back to your six. Immediately after you've lost gun solution if you roll right and gently turn right instead of continuing your move to the left it will take the spit much longer to turn and acquire a gun solution.(much longer being a second or two.. but enough time to get out of range)
By continuing this left turn, you are actually aiding the spit in getting a quicker gun solution.
Edit: This assumes that you couldn't go over 3k due to ack, thus explaining why you didn't get on top of the spit after the first pass.
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AH hit sprites. You can tell when you're hitting at d800 in AH. IRL at that distance, you'd have no idea unless, say, an engine started smoking. This applies mostly to machine gun rounds; you might be able to see cannon round detonations at d800.
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Furthest ever I hit was SpitV vs. Fin squad Mossie at 1.7k
Furthest Kill A-20 Ho vs. Skank9 at 1.5 k
got called no skilled HO-er for that one;)
Hit 1.4k with Il2- vs. running yak
many yak-t kills around 1k
its the zoom, disable zoom in AH2 and realistic gun ranges shall prevail
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Seeker -
- but I don't think the AH gunnery is spot on. In other games, you have to get much closer. WB - 300 yds max. IL2 - even closer still. That tallies entirely from accounts I've read by WW2 aerial combatants. OK, so in AH it's 800, 1000, even 1200 yards - or 1500 yards for buff gunners...
Steve. What I'm saying is that AH is meant to be a simulation of WW2. With respect to the gunnery, it is off - way off.
I take your point about that continued left turn etc. My thought in that situation is not wanting to reverse the turn because of wanting to avoid the situation whereby I pass through his centre position....
Anyway, it doesn't matter now. He died to me, and I ditched. But I still maintain that those 800 "shear the wing off" shots are BS. Maybe an occasional "oil leak" shot might be aceptable, but not the LASER gunnery as exhibited in my film.
And steve - answer my bleeding email already!
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LOL ... you make it sound like you can kill at 800 yrds 100% of the time. Such is not the case ... I would know. I don't even bother shooting past 600 yrds ... nothing but a waste of ammo.
It sounds like you took some damage to ack prior to your engagement with the Spit. That just might explain how easily your wings fell off ... prior damage and they were hanging on just barely.
Stop your whinin' ;)
For some reason, I can't get the film to play.
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Yes, the gunnery is way easier both in WB and AH then in real life.
WW2OL is actually a bit closer to reality.
Did anybody else stop reading after this bit?
:)
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George Buerling got a kill on a Bf109 at 800 yards while flying a Spitfire Mk V over Malta.
On July 6 he got to put into practice what he had learned when 8 Spits were sent to intercept 3 Italian Cant bombers heading for Malta. They were escorted by no less than 30 Macchi 200 fighters. Beurling led the assault diving straight through the Macchi formations and pulling up to fire on a big, Cant bomber. His first burst hit the pilot blowing off his head, the second took out an engine. Despite the damage, it made it back to base in Sicily flown by the bomber aimer/observer. Beurling turned quickly and fired directly into an Italian fighter, knocking it down in flames. He lined up another Italian fighter but it dove sharply to get away. Beurling followed all the way from 20,000 feet to 5,000. The Italian had no choice but to pull up and George caught him square in his sights. The Macchi blew up. Later the same day he led an attack on 2 Junkers Ju-88s escorted by 20 Bf-109s. A wild dogfight broke out and 2 German fighter pilots headed right for Beurling. He circled tightly and caught a 109 with a long burst from 800 yards and at a nearly impossible angle. He hit the fuel tanks and it went down in flames. In one day he increased his kill to 5 and became an ace. Back at base the other pilots snubbed him by not throwing an acknowledgement party of his ace status. He was only interested in attacking Germans. He admitted that he was a loner, but Lucas explained to him in simple, direct language that if he didn't fly as a team, he would be posted into the desert at some even more God-awful post than Malta. George flew with his wingman as well as he was able, however, over Malta most dogfights ended up being a single Spitfire against many enemy aircraft.
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Slap! My wing didn't fall off - just the ailerons.
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Seeker -
- but I don't think the AH gunnery is spot on.
Ah; but it is; look at your own yardstick: Bader.
Where we do have a huge advantage over RL is not gunnery; but the flight model; or better said the Air and Piliot model.
Firstly; there's no turbulence in AH; ever. No disturbed winds, no wake turbulence; no vortices making your gun platform shake and squirm.
Secondly, there's no forces acting on the pilot. I'm a good shot in the clay trap; but then I'm stood still and the gun and my arms are constant wieghts. If I had to shoot clay from inside a tumble dryer I'm sure I'd miss a couple.
It's not that AH models gunnery poorly; it's that it doesn't model some other factors which would tend to complicate the issue.
And to be honest a good many of the factors are psycological/physiological issues affecting the pilot that I don't think any sim could model.
True, there are some sims which nueter thier guns to the extent that one flies/shoots in an historical manner/range, but is that accurate modeling (IL-2 original springs to mind here)? Is that the way forward?
Wonder if HTC wil ever model the more advanced gunsights in use late war. That should make for some interesting whines :)
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Seeker
You're probably right, and you made some good points - lack of turbulence etc. That might well be one of the reasons pilots had to get close. I have no experience at clay pigeon shooting, but plenty of light aircraft experience, flying in the 2K - 4K levels, often near clouds. It was unusual to get a completely smooth flight - except over water, and there were times when I was bounced so hard it would have been like dropping a car from a foot off the ground.
I know that we can't expect everything to be modelled realistically; the real pilots had turbulence, whereas we have our own set of problems to deal with - netlag for one. And we need icons - though some guys like to think we don't!
But whereas the 800yd gunnery was acknowledged to be flawed in WB - so they changed it - we still have it in AH.
The Bader incident was, as I said, an extreme fluke. Which is why it became such a well known incident. It was a stray round that put a hole in an oil line, ie. not a concentrated stream that sheared a wing off.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Seeker
(snip)I know that we can't expect everything to be modelled realistically; the real pilots had turbulence, whereas we have our own set of problems to deal with (snip)
Just one referense
Captain H. Wind's Lectures On Fighter Tactics (written in 1943): Shooting (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html#shooting)
"When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater". It is very nice to shoot from the rear sides, and from there you most often shoot the enemy down, too. You should shoot in front of the armour into the cockpit and engine. The lead is also so small that it'll give you no trouble at all. "
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Originally posted by beet1e
Seeker
(snip)I know that we can't expect everything to be modelled realistically; the real pilots had turbulence, whereas we have our own set of problems to deal with (snip)
Just one referense
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/ww2history-win01.jpg)
Captain H. Wind's Lectures On Fighter Tactics (written in 1943): Shooting (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html#shooting)
"When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater". It is very nice to shoot from the rear sides, and from there you most often shoot the enemy down, too. You should shoot in front of the armour into the cockpit and engine. The lead is also so small that it'll give you no trouble at all. "
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h i z o o k a s
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Some of the real crackshots may not notice the difference in AH2. But I don't have a stellar hit accuracy - about 6~8% average in the AH1 MA. And personally I feel AH2 gunnery is indeed harder than AH1. I see a lot of situations where I mistakenly fall inside 400~500 yards from a Spitfire, and still escape without being damaged. Were it AH1, it'd be highly probable that I'd have been shot down at those ranges.
One of the reasons is the tracer is less visible, making it harder to 'walk' the rounds to the enemy over 500 yards.
Also, the hit sprites are very hard to see over 500 yards - not many people are tempted to 'spray' with confidence, knowing that they're gonna hit the enemy, when you don't get a return info on whether you're succeeding or not.
Just those two changes made it enough to make some people feel AH2 gunnery is harder. If we get rid of the ammo counters, I think it'd be pretty complete.
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Even in AH1, I don't think 800yard shots are common. What makes it a grueling experience is the only planes which are capable of putting in those long range shots, are those with multiple .50s or Hispanos. Other guns rarely ever get even lucky hits, over 500 yards.
IMO, it's not the 800yard shots that people should be sick of. I think it's pretty rare a thing to happen.
But rather, it's the average ranges where AH gamers confidently feel that they can get a kill, that should be brought up as a problem.
You're chasing a bogey that is extending away from you slowly. He's at 400 yards. If he jinks hard, he's gonna be caught. So, he jinks and maneuvers lightly, trying to get away from you.
Now, how many AH pilots can't shoot him down? I'm an average pilot. But I can shoot him down. If I have .50s or Hispanos, then I can most certainly shoot him down.
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So beetle... at what range should the rounds magically disappear?
In real life, rounds didn't magically dissapear at 1,400 (and change) yards. They kept going until they hit the ground.
Don't get me wrong, I have beef with the damage modelling/ Hizooka in particular, but I don't think an occasional kill at extraordinary ranges is unrealistic at all.
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Another thing to note is that the rigidity of the gun mountings is not modeled. That was a real problem with mounting Hispanos in the wings of the British fighters as it was designed to be mounted through the engine block of a fighter. The increased rigidity of the fuselage mounting in the Mosquito reduced the diameter of the Hispano's hit pattern substantially.
BTW, not all bullets reach 1400 yards in AH. The .303s don't even reach 1000 yards. Not that it matters with .303s.
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
Urchin, I don't think that the rounds should "magically disappear", but there is a limit to the effective range, at which the projectile's kinetic energy is exhausted, especially when dispersion is taken into account. Think of a shotgun - lethal at close range up to about 40 yards, but unlikely to kill a target at 60 yards, possibly harmless at 100-200 yards. I know that .50 cals and the like flew better than shot, but I have my doubts about the 800/1000/1200 yard range that we're seeing in AH1. In other online games like WB3, WW2OL and IL2 you have to get much closer than that...
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Kweassa is correct that its not the rare 800 + yard kills that are an issue.
The average effective kill range in AH seems to be 400-500yrds. In other games, and supported by period training manuals and pilot anecdotes, it is bit long.
But what do I know.
I do know that in those games where gunnery is "harder" and requires you to be in close (when you think you are close enough, get in closer) to aim accurately that it makes for a lot more fun.
In AH some of the most fun is the 109e-4 vrs the Spit 1. Both sides have to close and fight for a killshot. Its particularly frustrating, and less fun, when your opponents guns easily outrange you. For example, the a6m2 vrs any 50 cal armed plane. These planes already have a speed advantage and with long range gunnery they never need to close in to aim better. You can spend an evening chasing umm in around the map.
But whatcha gonna do?
;)
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yea..id be interested to know the velocity of a particular projectile at x feet fron the gun
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Well, someone'd have to post what the standard negative acceleration for just air resistance is, but it wouldn't be that tough.
Velocity = Starting Velocity (at the muzzle) + Acceleration (in this case negative in the horizontal due to air resistance) * Time.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, someone'd have to post what the standard negative acceleration for just air resistance is, but it wouldn't be that tough.
Velocity = Starting Velocity (at the muzzle) + Acceleration (in this case negative in the horizontal due to air resistance) * Time.
Plus relative hit velocity (for mg rounds at least) so when you have worked out the TAS you deduct (or add if its head on) the velocity of the target.
Range v speed must be modelled in some way........I noted in the kadesh scenario that when two Me262's are at 500mph the relative gun range seemed to be radically reduced.
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I know that .50 cals and the like flew better than shot, but I have my doubts about the 800/1000/1200 yard range that we're seeing in AH1. In other online games like WB3, WW2OL and IL2 you have to get much closer than that...
There might be a variety of environmental factors that skew the AH results, but in RL you qualify with a M-2 .50 at 800 and 1000 meters. Further, you typically have to hit the target in under a dozen rounds or so at this range using open sights. And even further, the targets the weapon is supposed to be effective against at that range are in the APC class, which are hardly tanks but they are hardly fragile WW2 fighter aircraft either.
Now, the ww2 aircraft .50 had less muzzle velocity, but not much less. And, even though there is wind and buffeting, etc. in WW2 combat there is also multiple weapons and a reflector gunsight.
IMO, most of the ".50 terror" some seem to have (never really been an issue for me, for whatever reasons) is the amount of practice an AH virtual pilot has with the AH weapons systems, a lack of minimal evasives at 500+ range among some targets, and an ability to see the 1 in 40 critical hit at these ranges (vs a single, no damage ping etc.) as the standard rather than the exception. Oh, and the ability to set convergence at 400+ yards which was beyond the typical practice for the era probably has something to do with it.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
IMO, most of the ".50 terror" some seem to have (never really been an issue for me, for whatever reasons) is the amount of practice an AH virtual pilot has with the AH weapons systems, a lack of minimal evasives at 500+ range among some targets, and an ability to see the 1 in 40 critical hit at these ranges (vs a single, no damage ping etc.) as the standard rather than the exception. Oh, and the ability to set convergence at 400+ yards which was beyond the typical practice for the era probably has something to do with it.
Charon
I think this applies to all the weapons here. Yah, I've gotten hits with the cannon on a spit at 800+. Though, at best, my ratio for those shots is probably 1 hit in 16+ shots. Hence, never did it very often. The way I look at it, flying straight and level against anyone inside about 1.2k is foolish.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
I1 hit in 16+ shots.
With the SpitV we have 240 20mm rounds, more than enough to score several hits at these ranges. These guns are firing 10 rounds per sec each. Even if the extending target keeps only 3 seconds inside the 800 yards range you would have scored 2 hits shooting 60 rounds at a ratio of 30 shots per hit. And 2 hispano hits do a lot of damage.
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So where did the disadvantage of having a wing mounted gun go?
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Originally posted by GODO
With the SpitV we have 240 20mm rounds, more than enough to score several hits at these ranges. These guns are firing 10 rounds per sec each. Even if the extending target keeps only 3 seconds inside the 800 yards range you would have scored 2 hits shooting 60 rounds at a ratio of 30 shots per hit. And 2 hispano hits do a lot of damage.
Yes, I know how much cannon a spit carries...mainly because I need every fargin round just to hit something in close :D. Generally speaking, if I kill someone at that range it is pure, unadulterated luck. My purpose in shooting at that range is to try for just 1 hit and scare the guy into manuevering so I can catch him.
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Wont bother to clairify on the film... But I'll say this. I can nail a con either trying to rope me or running away from my poor lil spitV from 1k out alot of times with no "spraying"... My tactic is to use cannons only, know where they will hit at 1k our ect., and aim steady... There is no need to spray 100's of rounds in the air toward the nme, just a few will do the job:D Once those 20s make contact, the are bound to take something off or at the very least, get the track star to break.;)
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A corsair should have NO troubles with a low spit..under any circumstances other than a 2-1.
after a series of false runs...they'll break turn every friggin time, and gofor the snap shot, or try to follow you back up the hill...
Get yourself set up for a guns solution on the 3rd or 4th pass...Bleed their E. hard rudder, roll over, and stomp on their head.
I know you're a good pilot Beetle, but this time, I think you let him dictate the fight..a sure loss if your in the hog...at worst, extend and escape and reset....chances are he'll be foolish enough to follow you...and make him pay.
Gainsie
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
I know you're a good pilot Beetle
Awwwww :o Doing OK in the various USN planes this tour. :aok
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Originally posted by beet1e
Bader flew the Spit 1a with float carb; I don't know if he flew the Spit V in combat.
He did but he flew a Spit Va with 8 .303s.
I would be surprised if he flew the 1a in combat as he was a Hurri 1 pilot at the time the Spit 1a was in service.
palef
PS Sorry if someone has already answered this.