Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rude on February 13, 2004, 04:39:07 PM
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Our war on terror begins with al Qaida, but it does not end there. . . . we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. . . President George W. Bush, Joint Session of Congress, September 20, 2001
Saddam Hussein is paying $25,000 to the relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers -- a $15,000 raise much welcomed by the bombers' families. In Tulkarm, one of the poorest towns on the West Bank, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council handed out the checks from Saddam. The payments have been made for at least two years, but the amount has suddenly jumped up by $15,000 -- a bonus for the families of 'martyrs', to reward those taking part in the escalating war against Israel. . . . Fox News, March 26, 2002
This general served Saddam Hussein for decades. Along with another Iraqi defector, Sabah Khodada (see below), the general tells of terrorists training in a Boeing 707 resting next to railroad tracks on the edge of Salman Pak, an area south of Baghdad. The existence of the plane has been confirmed by U.N. inspectors. The general describes the men who trained there, the camp's security, and his "gut feeling" that the camp was in some way tied to the Sept. 11 attacks. Iraqi Lt. General, PBS and New York Times Interview, November 6, 2001
A captain in the Iraqi army from 1982 to 1992, he worked at what he describes as a highly secret terrorist training camp at Salman Pak, an area south of Baghdad. In this translated interview Khodada describes what went on at Salman Pak, including details on training hijackers. He emigrated to the U.S. in May 2001. Sabah Kodada, Iraqi Army Captain, PBS and New York Times Interview, October 14, 2001
An investigation by Frontline confirmed that Iraqi intelligence had trained at least forty Islamic terrorists between 1995 and 2000 in how to hijacking airliners using a Boeing-747 that was originally Kuwaiti property. Frontline, PBS, November 14, 2001
Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens. . . . Congressional Resolution Authorizing Force Against Iraq, October 15, 2002
Shortly before the Sept. 11 attacks, a group of al-Qaida fighters left Afghanistan and set up shop in Iraq as a backup base, according to a report in today‘s Los Angeles Times. Osama bin Laden‘s jihadists established such a base in town of Al Biyara and nearby mountain villages where Kurdish militants had begun imposing the strict Islamic rule much like Afghanistan‘s ousted Taliban regime, according to the Times report. While this base is further evidence of Saddam Hussein‘s recent support of al-Qaida, documented by many intelligence sources over the last 10 years, Iraq is attempting to maintain plausible deniability with regard to the bases – suggesting they are outside the control of the government in Baghdad. Intelmessages.com and Los Angeles Times, December 9, 2002
The British also released a dossier on Iraq which claimed that at least two key Al-Qaeda lieutenants underwent training inIraq. The dossier also confirmed that Iraq was paying Al-Qaeda to use its Ansar forces based in northern Iraq to attack the Kurdish forces. Reuters, September 14, 2002
Simply no basis for action
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There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq except blatent US aggression. Accept it.
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14.12.2004 - Im having Vodka with Brezniev somewhere in Iraq.
All is ready to turn iraq under redflag ... belive me
i realy dont know whats going on here, but god blessed emerika, whitch already lost in iraq and bush is practicaly dead on international politic scene, so blabl abla ... there are zillion camps, he told us..
he was super coool SH`s butt cleaner and he knew it all ... muhehee we are so gooood
ohhh well :D
and all WMD labs already flew to Syria or iran on meterologic balloons .... bloody eastern wind
i realy have to go ROFL, every time when i read this "intelligence sources"
i can not help myself
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Thanks for posting this Rude. I have been telling friends, family, anyone willing to listen that this war is part of the larger War on Terror as defined by the Bush Doctrine laid out in that Sept. 20, 2001 speech. Bush clearly defined American foreign policy in that speech and he has thus far enforced it. The liberals can't stand the success and constantly attempt to portray the President as a liar and the situation in Iraq as a quagmire.
The left is constantly harping about the buck stopping at the White House. For once they are correct. The President had to make a decision about Iraq and he had to do so based on the intelligence he was provided. Much of that was from foreign sources since our own HUMINT capabilities had been seriously denuded by the previous administration. The President decided that he could not wait until Saddam DID become an imminent threat. Clearly Saddam was already supporting terrorism. But we all know that Bush is the liar here and that any airplane in the Iraqi desert was solely being used to train stewardesses for Iraqi Air...
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There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq
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Is just plan redikulus, comrade.
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It’s a comfort to know we spent 4,300 causalities and 400 billion for the benefit of Israel
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Originally posted by 10Bears
It’s a comfort to know we spent 4,300 causalities and 400 billion for the benefit of Israel
lol, what a moron
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Originally posted by Pongo
There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq except blatent US aggression. Accept it.
We'll do what we decide we need to do to protect ourselves and our interests. Accept that, or not.
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We'll do what we decide we need to do to protect ourselves and our interests. Accept that, or not.
well that may be true if you're part of a very select group.
but for most americans, we'll do what's decided by a very few, to protect that same few and their interests, to the detriment of most of america and our children that we are leaving the mess too.
I gain nothing from this war except debt. and unless you work for a military contractor, most of you won't gain anything from it either.
and many(specificly those with relatives in the military) risk a loss much greater than picking up more debt.
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Originally posted by maslo
14.12.2004 - Im having Vodka with Brezniev somewhere in Iraq.
All is ready to turn iraq under redflag ... belive me
i realy dont know whats going on here, but god blessed emerika, whitch already lost in iraq and bush is practicaly dead on international politic scene, so blabl abla ... there are zillion camps, he told us..
he was super coool SH`s butt cleaner and he knew it all ... muhehee we are so gooood
ohhh well :D
and all WMD labs already flew to Syria or iran on meterologic balloons .... bloody eastern wind
i realy have to go ROFL, every time when i read this "intelligence sources"
i can not help myself
oh.....geez.
What did I use in the other thread............Loser, ya that's it.
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Well, at least your soldiers didn't die (and still aren't dying) in vain.
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"surprisingly" all the sudden theres no questions raised of the quotes, whether those are true or not etc.
But let someone with other kind of view point talk and its suddenly, lies, bulls*it, anti-american attitude etc.
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i served in combat in the first gulf war.
this ones a crock beggining to end lots of dead folks all in between.
bush is a liar or a fool take your pick.
personaly i think its both.
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i served in combat in the first gulf war.
With who and whereabouts?
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uss virginia cgn 38. os3 groundside/training airside
i believe we were liberian flaged for insurance purposes.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
It’s a comfort to know we spent 4,300 causalities and 400 billion for the benefit of Israel
Well, since you bring that one up... how does a radioactive Middle East sound to you? We leave Israel to itself, and that's what you'll have.
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Originally posted by Pongo
There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq except blatent US aggression. Accept it.
Yeah, national security is no basis for invasion. Care to refute the quotes above?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, national security is no basis for invasion. Care to refute the quotes above?
Good luck with your national security!
Theres a dozen far more dangerous nations to your security and a bunch of lesser evils.
Interestingly this smaller threat is somehow taking priorioty over these dozen others...
Anyway, this threat to national security which your forces are occupying, has caused more losses than a few regular kind of terrorist attacks.
I'd be rather interested to see the total casualty figures from Iraq, including the wounded, which usually tends to be a bigger number than KIAs.
Especially the ones with permanent damage.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Good luck with your national security!
Theres a dozen far more dangerous nations to your security and a bunch of lesser evils.
Interestingly this smaller threat is somehow taking priorioty over these dozen others...
One step at a time...
and what better place to have a foothold than the middle east?
Sometimes teaching a "small" lesson is less significant nations can lead to changes in bigger ones. Ask Libya what they've been doing lately.;)
Simply put, brilliant strategy.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
One step at a time...
and what better place to have a foothold than the middle east?
Simply put, brilliant strategy.
and the number of terrorists has increased... and its also easier to attack now that you're standing on their backyard.
Brilliant indeed.
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piss ant countries should piss off
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Originally posted by Fishu
and the number of terrorists has increased... and its also easier to attack now that you're standing on their backyard.
Brilliant indeed.
Can you provide me proof they've increased in numbers?
Brilliant that the fight isn't on our soil, indeed.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Can you provide me proof they've increased in numbers?
Brilliant that the fight isn't on our soil, indeed.
So you dont count your soldiers as your citizens, but as someones to throw into the fire and say great words to.. along with awarding some medals?
I see 500 fallen soldiers and thousands of more wounded as casualties for the country, they are citizens there where anyone else, just more willing than some living room generals.
Also, when you go to middle east and stir up, there will become more terrorists than otherwise.
It'll be always easier for the recruiters when you give them better slogans for free and make up the minds of people who previously didn't care so much of being the brave soldier of allah.
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Originally posted by Fishu
and the number of terrorists has increased...
Back up tht statement with sources or shut up.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Back up tht statement with sources or shut up.
If I could put up the numbers, I would be probably hired by the US Gov., since terrorist obviously doesn't keep a list of their numbers like the most western countries do.
It's been on the news for months now, obviously you dont follow the news.
Even simple logic would tell you that.
However your logic seems to be missing at times..
Ps. It's an ages old tradition in the middle east.
Some foreign nation comes there to mess up and the recruiters gets to have a field day at recruiting new allah soldiers.
Then they come from across the borders to the country where the hot spot is.
...along with logic, you need to study some history.
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So what you are saying, Fishu, is that we should hand matters over to Finland, right? Let them tell us how to run the show?
Please, PLEASE take the bait. ;)
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Originally posted by Kieran
So what you are saying, Fishu, is that we should hand matters over to Finland, right? Let them tell us how to run the show?
Please, PLEASE take the bait. ;)
You're boring me, since you never do anything else than try to troll and bash.
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If I could put up the numbers, I would be probably hired by the US Gov.
na.....probably not.
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Originally posted by Fishu
You're boring me, since you never do anything else than try to troll and bash.
That's got to be one of the most ironic things you've ever posted. Really.
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Originally posted by Pongo
There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq except blatent US aggression. Accept it.
No pongo I got to disagree with you there.
I feel strongly that sadumb needed to be removed from power.
But we have now done that And It Is time to come home.
As far as WMD LOL man who really knows .
I think it was wrong to use that as the reason for the invasion though.
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Originally posted by AKIron
We'll do what we decide we need to do to protect ourselves and our interests. Accept that, or not.
is this Ignorance or Arogance ?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Back up tht statement with sources or shut up.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2002/conflict_with_iraq/default.stm
if you will compare dead civilian month by month, you will probably get raising graph
US absolutly fail in Iraq, security situation there is worster and worster every month.
In december it took 2 days of waiting on gas station to get benzin.
Even SH were able to rebuild Iraq faster after first war.
Ocupation never ever bring good things and this one is not exception.
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Originally posted by maslo
is this Ignorance or Arogance ?
More like apathy- as in, what does it matter what your country thinks about our policy?
But seriously, if you read your posts towards America, you can find a great deal of clear instances of both ignorance and arrogance.
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ups.
well my ignorance toward anyone don not kill people.
Ignorance on national level is a bit diferent that ignorance from person.
I would like to know what do you consider to be arogance or ignorance in my posts, to avoid it in feature.
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I'd suggest getting a grip on the English language before bashing the US. Hell, our President can spell better than that. :D:D:D
I jest...but all this talk about the war and all...man, I'm having a hard time accepting it. I don't know who to believe, because everyone sounds like a crackpot. It's either one extreme or the other. I could print out some of the drivel here and give it to my political science teacher and get an A. :D
Going to go play Lock On.
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Originally posted by Kieran
That's got to be one of the most ironic things you've ever posted. Really.
Well, time to look at your own posts..
You're nothing but
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Can we not agree that sadumb was a bad evil man that needed to be removed from power?
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Okay I have a question,
This is pointed at Mr. Black but anyone can answer.
Why is it conventional wisdom that Saddam needed to be removed from power?
Reason I ask is who is going to hold back the religious fundamentalists now? Wouldn’t a better solution had been to lift sanctions and resume the business of doing business thereby strengthening business partnerships making it un-desirous for Saddam to attack?. This has been our policy with communist China for more than 10 years now and seems to me to be a win-win situation for both our countries.
Gosh! that sounds so Republican of me. Why are you guys not acting like Republicans?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Well, time to look at your own posts..
You're nothing but
You've been taking slaps at America for years. It just got a lot more popular in the last few. I called you on it, you acted hurt, but as you proved the last time we talked about it, you simply can't be un-American in your sentiments... after all, you rooted for an American team on some sport! :rofl
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Originally posted by Kieran
You've been taking slaps at America for years. It just got a lot more popular in the last few. I called you on it, you acted hurt, but as you proved the last time we talked about it, you simply can't be un-American in your sentiments... after all, you rooted for an American team on some sport! :rofl
Looks like your memory is quite bad as well, might excuse some of your bad choices what to pick on.
Never looking at yourself, all the mistakes you've done.
You seem to think you're perfect and everyone who says bad of america is some sort of anti-american.
What did you say the US was, democracy? freedom?
Probably couldn't sense that from your attitude.
Thankfully not all americans are like you.. you're somewhat bad example.
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I can say the same of you. Every time you post on America, it's guaranteed it's to the negative. Consistantly. It's boorish, and you seem incapable of grasping that.
Never said I was perfect; I can say I am not lurking on Finnish BBSs throwing snipes from the sidelines. You've been doing it here for years. I can't think of very much of American life you haven't taken a swipe at. My tolerance for you has long since been shot. I used to think you just didn't have a grasp of the language, but I've since come to realize the bulk of your stuff is condescension and just plain mean-spirited.
If it wasn't for posters like Tuomio, I'd think poorly of all Scandinavians. A fair number of you represent your countries very poorly. I have to remind myself that, even if you aren't a minority, there are some good ones left.
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Rip
He presented no proof or evidence, what is there to refute?
Iraq did pay the palistinians to blow up Isrealis. But the US doenst call the palistinains terrorsts so that is not a link to terror. If the Palistinians were terrorsts certainly under the speech given and quoted by Bush the US would be hunting them down. Not negotiating with them and trying to get Isreal to give the terrorists what they want?
So that is not a valid link to terror is it...
The rest of the post is babble. If after 2.5 years of the war on terror that is what counts as proof enough to invade a country and kill 1000s of people then things are sad indeed.
In what must be the world record for double think,Rude even has the weakness of mind and moral to present evidence of Bushes stated ambition to ivade Iraq and his pathetic (but successfull) attempts to link Iraq with 9/11 as evidence of some kind of proof that the invasion of Iraq was warrented. As if evidence that bush announced he would invade Iraq 2 years before "the evidence" made him do it is some kind of glowing redemption of his actions and not a concrete proof that he was not interested in the slightest in really hunting down terrorists but in sowing fear to enable him to do what he wanted with the US military.
So Rip. All I say is what does justification or proof have to do with it. Your country has paid for the capability to take over other countries and your president lies just enought to pacify th 40% of the vote he needs to stay in power.
If any other country in the world or in history waged war on such rediculous excuses you and Rude and the "conservative" crowd here would not accept it for one second.
You hope there is some fact that will emerge to justify the unjustifiable. You have had Iraq to yourselves for nearly a year.
Had thousands of US operatives there to find some justification for the invasion. Any.
Yet this pathetic list of "testamony" from ex Iraqis that had to buy thier way with the CIA is your evidence, Gut feelings.
Are you not the least bit suspicios Rip that after so long in posession of the country your coutnry has found nothing?
Imagine if the US found no evidence of Nazism in germany by mid 1946.
So no I dont accept Rudes list as justification of the invasion of Iraq. Easy to justify an invasion of Saudi Arabia. But Jr is not about to do that.
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Originally posted by Kieran
I can say the same of you. Every time you post on America, it's guaranteed it's to the negative. Consistantly. It's boorish, and you seem incapable of grasping that.
If it wasn't for posters like Tuomio, I'd think poorly of all Scandinavians. A fair number of you represent your countries very poorly. I have to remind myself that, even if you aren't a minority, there are some good ones left.
Thats the very problem of yours, you stick to assumptions.
Since that is utter BS what you claim.
Try to make difference between politics and other issues, you mostly just read what I say about the politics.
I don't agree with certain US policies, neither does a good bunch of americans... what would make me so much different, except for being foreigner and easier to frame me up as anti-american.
(makes me wonder what the disagreeing part of americans are.. unpatriotic? oh the democracy!)
Be welcome to critisize finnish politics, I won't even make a hint you'd be anti-finnish if you just bash the politics.
..like some from US has done here, which is silly, especially when defending the freedom, democracy... et al.
Unfortunately most political discussions here are about the one and same thing - how to deal with the terrorist - so it isn't big of a surprise if the tone is same kind.
...and always someone is putting up same kind of crap against the others.
Don't forget Hortlund, LOL
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Hey I re4spect the Finn's and the canadian's!!
They got some of the best sniper teams in the world.
Competed agaist the canuck's many a time and never wooped em:mad:
All joking aside.
You must understand that I America right now we are still VERY pissed about 9-11.
We got caught with our pants down and we dont like lit.
So are we maybe doing the scatter gun effect? Perhapes
You know kill em all let God sort em out kinda mentality.
Right or wrong I really don't know.
But I will tell you this.
We will get every last one of those cowards responsable for 9-11.
So forgive us If we are a little Gung Ho right now.
Like I said before I feel like we Have done what we needed to do in Iraq .
Now It's time to bring our young warriors HOME.
Ps I voted for Goerge but this election I really am At a lose on who will get my vote.
The Economy here In the States is pretty week right now.
I think that should be of some importance to the next President.
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i have noticed the people who think war with saddam is/was wrong also think the USA should attack china, north korea, iran,saudi arabia,syria, egypt, etc,etc all at the same time.
idiots
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Okay I have a question,
This is pointed at Mr. Black but anyone can answer.
Why is it conventional wisdom that Saddam needed to be removed from power?
Reason I ask is who is going to hold back the religious fundamentalists now? Wouldn’t a better solution had been to lift sanctions and resume the business of doing business thereby strengthening business partnerships making it un-desirous for Saddam to attack?. This has been our policy with communist China for more than 10 years now and seems to me to be a win-win situation for both our countries.
Gosh! that sounds so Republican of me. Why are you guys not acting like Republicans?
Typical Liberal, no clue at all about anything.
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Wouldn’t a better solution had been to lift sanctions and resume the business of doing business thereby strengthening business partnerships making it un-desirous for Saddam to attack?.
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I dont know much 10bears but what I think the problem was with hussein is that he was hording all the wealth of that nation and the average little guy in iraq wasnt getting anything.
just a thought.....
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Originally posted by Fishu
Thats the very problem of yours, you stick to assumptions.
Since that is utter BS what you claim.
Try to make difference between politics and other issues, you mostly just read what I say about the politics.
I don't agree with certain US policies, neither does a good bunch of americans... what would make me so much different, except for being foreigner and easier to frame me up as anti-american.
(makes me wonder what the disagreeing part of americans are.. unpatriotic? oh the democracy!)
Be welcome to critisize finnish politics, I won't even make a hint you'd be anti-finnish if you just bash the politics.
..like some from US has done here, which is silly, especially when defending the freedom, democracy... et al.
Unfortunately most political discussions here are about the one and same thing - how to deal with the terrorist - so it isn't big of a surprise if the tone is same kind.
...and always someone is putting up same kind of crap against the others.
Don't forget Hortlund, LOL
Really?
Name a single foreign policy the US has you agree with.
Tell me something positive about the American school system.
Tell me something positive American domestic policy.
In other words, tell me something positive about America in general, because honestly I cannot remember a single time you had anything positive to say about anything substantive to do with America. Mostly you just make smartass comments and innuendo.
I'm being direct with you, because quite honestly you've earned a little bluntness.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Okay I have a question,
This is pointed at Mr. Black but anyone can answer.
Why is it conventional wisdom that Saddam needed to be removed from power?
[/b]
Mad dictator
Supporting terrorism
WMD's (or if you believe the "Saddam-had-no WMD's"-bull****, WMD-ambitions)
Genocide against own population
Destabilizing the entire region
Reason I ask is who is going to hold back the religious fundamentalists now?
[/b]
Remember the axis of evil? Iran should be next on that list.
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Originally posted by Fishu
If I could put up the numbers, I would be probably hired by the US Gov., since terrorist obviously doesn't keep a list of their numbers like the most western countries do.
[/b]
So in other words you dont really know what the hell you are talking about when you say their numbers are increasing?
It's been on the news for months now, obviously you dont follow the news.
Even simple logic would tell you that.
[/b]
Then you should have no problem whatsoever to provide a couple of links that can back up your statement....or?
However your logic seems to be missing at times..
Ps. It's an ages old tradition in the middle east.
Some foreign nation comes there to mess up and the recruiters gets to have a field day at recruiting new allah soldiers.
Then they come from across the borders to the country where the hot spot is.
...along with logic, you need to study some history.
So, you make up a statement, you cannot back up that statement with any sources whatsoever, but when I question you on it, my logic is missing?
Sweet.
And I need to study logic?
Priceless.
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what i love is how you guys dogpile everyone who dissagrees with any of you. yet you never disagree with each other on anything substansive at all. your views can literaly be so predictable its scary. fox says jump you idiots go how high. so people laugh at you and mock you. your basicly fascists.
he mostly points out that yall are alot of brain dead party line followers even when your obviously wrong or supporting a liar.
get over it or start thinking.
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You first.
:p
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
what i love is how you guys dogpile everyone who dissagrees with any of you. yet you never disagree with each other on anything substansive at all. your views can literaly be so predictable its scary. fox says jump you idiots go how high. so people laugh at you and mock you. your basicly fascists.
he mostly points out that yall are alot of brain dead party line followers even when your obviously wrong or supporting a liar.
get over it or start thinking.
My gosh, have you even looked at Kerry's voting record? You want to talk about lying?
You couldn't sound more like the dem talking points if you tried... harder. I especially love the "wagging your finger in the faces of republican posters for insulting alternate viewpoints" as you, well, "insult republican posters for having viewpoints different from yours."
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Well thank you Mr. Yeager for a reasonable response. Shockingly, even Steve Hortland is being more or less civil.
I dont know much 10bears but what I think the problem was with hussein is that he was hording all the wealth of that nation and the average little guy in iraq wasnt getting anything.
just a thought.....
Fair enough
Mad dictator
Supporting terrorism
WMD's (or if you believe the "Saddam-had-no WMD's"-bull****, WMD-ambitions)
Genocide against own population
Destabilizing the entire region
Well I have ambitions for a new Ford GT40.. Have you seen that baby?.. 500 horse power.. reasonable too.. only 35k.
I applaud your new bleeding heart liberal stance that we should care for and look after all the poor peoples in the world, however, I take the older Republican view that it’s in America’s best interest to not get heavily involved with other countries internal affairs or civil wars as it tends to complicate things even more. Particularly the middle east where there seems to be a major lack of understanding of culture and norms. What you see as Saddams transgressions are mild in comparison to other countries in the same region. For example, under Iraqi law, where hands chopped off for stealing a piece of fruit?.. Was there public beheadings?.. Were women forced to wear burkas or be stoned to death for adultery?.. That is horrible to western eyes but this is exactly what will happen if you allow western style Democracy in this country. This fella, Al Santini is demanding direct elections only once. He is of a mind to bring Islamic law to Iraq which will do nothing, nothing-- to stabilize a platform in which to do business. And THAT my friend, is America’s bottom line.
The idea that we would be so callous, so unforsightful to allow our troops to stand guard and be shot down like pigs in a plough to scrimp on double armor on humves and trucks, to scrimp on personal body armor, ----makes me physically sick.. I break down emotionally and cry at this lack of foresight. And you call this supporting the troops?
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Jeez, 10, ya had me sniffing there.
Callous? Let's see, we have a huge standing army. I'd have to assume the Congress realizes we have them in uniform because there's an understanding that they may have to go in harm's way at some time not of our choosing.
Now, ask yourself WHY there was no double armor on humves and trucks and a serious lack of the new Interceptor personal body armor.
And, when you figure it out, please tell the rest of us.
In fact, when you figure out why we built basically unarmored Humvees to begin with when events in South Africa had already shown the need for better anti-mine floor protection and better body armor, I'd love to know too.
In fact, when you figure out how the whole weapons procurement system works and why some Senators and Representatives (from either party)that are notoriously anti-military anything will fight to the bitter end to keep procuring outdated weapons simply because they are produced in their home district, let us in on that one too.
Maybe this is part of the problem:
April 2000
Army Covets Commercial Truck Technology Worldwide demand for rugged vehicles benefits military programs
by Sandra I. Erwin
Charged with the operation and maintenance of more than 200,000 trucks, the U.S. Army also is seeking to modernize the aging fleet. The service's strategy for doing so, however, is falling short in many areas, officials said.
"At the current rate of procurement, it will take about 48 years to replace our tactical vehicle fleet," said Gen. John G. Coburn, commander of the Army Materiel Command. Most trucks are designed to last no more than 20 to 25 years. "We have not been fixing our equipment," said Coburn. "We are going to have to go to a better program [to] insert technology."
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You know what Toad?.. whoopee IT! whoopee IT.. WHAT!! THAT’S AN EXCUSE????.... That ain’t no excuse.. damn thing costing 400 billion already what’s another 75 billion or whatever it costs get them vehicles plated.. They can do it down in Kuwait .. I don’t care what the cost is.. Even if they can only plate the bottom part at least it’s something.. Jesus H. Mother F__king Christ you can’t tell these families that... WTF!!!!!!!
I’m sorry.. I’m sorry... can’t type right now.. not mad at you.. This whole thing has got me beyond super pissed off..
Will post later.
You know Lowe’s two Sons are there now right?.. oh he’s putting on a brave face for us in the CT.. but I know in the background he and his wife are F-R-E-A-K-I-N-G out..
BTW on a slightly calmer note, Tory’s back.. Thank you Jesus God for small favors in life.. He looks five years older.. He knew the kid from Oahu that got hit Christmas eve.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
You know what Toad?.. whoopee IT! whoopee IT.. WHAT!! THAT’S AN EXCUSE????.... That ain’t no excuse.. damn thing costing 400 billion already what’s another 75 billion or whatever it costs get them vehicles plated.. They can do it down in Kuwait .. I don’t care what the cost is.. Even if they can only plate the bottom part at least it’s something.. Jesus H. Mother F__king Christ you can’t tell these families that... WTF!!!!!!!
I’m sorry.. I’m sorry... can’t type right now.. not mad at you.. This whole thing has got me beyond super pissed off..
Will post later.
You know Lowe’s two Sons are there now right?.. oh he’s putting on a brave face for us in the CT.. but I know in the background he and his wife are F-R-E-A-K-I-N-G out..
BTW on a slightly calmer note, Tory’s back.. Thank you Jesus God for small favors in life.. He looks five years older.. He knew the kid from Oahu that got hit Christmas eve.
Time to take your medication Howard Dean. YEAARHHHHHHHH!
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your morality is in your ass. and your showin it.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
your morality is in your ass. and your showin it.
Morality is something you, as a Liberal do-gooder, couldn't recognize IMO.
Is it typical of liberals to "freak out" when they are having a discussion and can't make a point?
Hey here's an experiment: Ask me a series of questions regarding morality and I will answer them. Then you can have an idea of what my moral grounding is rather than assume you know the slightest bit about me.
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No, 10, it's no excuse at all.
You see, I agree with you. I think the troops deserve the absolute finest equipment to bring them home alive.
I just bought an Interceptor vest for one of my son's best friends. This kid, a high school buddy, was just about part of MY family during the high school years. He just got called up, he's going to Afghanistan to be in on the Bin Laden hunt. They gave him the PASGT vest.. the old crappy one that won't stop an AK round. He deploys shortly. I thought that sucked.
Why did he get the old PASGT vest? Because the MONEY isn't, wasn't, hasn't been there to buy vests for the entire army.
Same with the Humvees. The money isn't, wasn't, hasn't been there to armor them. Hell, they could have done it when they FIRST designed it. IIRC, there was a LOT of infighting when the HUMVEE was funded over making it more survivable. Cheap won out. Like always.
Now...where do you want to put the blame for that? Huh?
Wail and moan all you like. This problem is DIRECTLY rooted in the Defense budget. How much they get, how they spend it.
Look at the Congressmen that have kept bad/obsolete weapons systems in production just because it's built in their home district.
Look at the Congressmen that vote against new, better systems because they WON'T be built in their home districts.
And look at all the Congressmen that vote against just about EVERY new weapons system for the military. Kerry is one of those, BTW.
If you're gonna stand ready to go to war anywhere, anytime seems to me you'd better not skimp on the troops.
But we do.
Now, where do you stand on the last defense budget and the new one just proposed? Too much money? Not enough money?
Because it all comes down to money and how Congress spends it.
That's the bottom line and all your shrieking and wailing won't change it a lick.
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It looks like Congress wants our boys to be fighting with spoons and half a golf ball...
At least it seems that way...
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Originally posted by 10Bears
I applaud your new bleeding heart liberal stance that we should care for and look after all the poor peoples in the world, however, I take the older Republican view that it’s in America’s best interest to not get heavily involved with other countries internal affairs or civil wars as it tends to complicate things even more. Particularly the middle east where there seems to be a major lack of understanding of culture and norms.
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That is not the republican view. Nor is it the American view. At least not in the mid east-gulf region. Lets see if you can figure out why that is.
What you see as Saddams transgressions are mild in comparison to other countries in the same region.
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Oh really? Using poison gas on civilians in your own country is mild in comparison to other countries in the same region? Go ahead then, and list the atrocities you feel are worse than that.
For example, under Iraqi law, where hands chopped off for stealing a piece of fruit?.. Was there public beheadings?.. Were women forced to wear burkas or be stoned to death for adultery?..
That is horrible to western eyes but this is exactly what will happen if you allow western style Democracy in this country. This fella, Al Santini is demanding direct elections only once. He is of a mind to bring Islamic law to Iraq which will do nothing, nothing-- to stabilize a platform in which to do business. And THAT my friend, is America’s bottom line.
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Heh, you have a very odd image of western style democracy. See the problem is that you forget to include the basic human rights in that little theory of yours. Cant have a western style democracy without western style basic protection for some key human rights.
The idea that we would be so callous, so unforsightful to allow our troops to stand guard and be shot down like pigs in a plough to scrimp on double armor on humves and trucks, to scrimp on personal body armor, ----makes me physically sick.. I break down emotionally and cry at this lack of foresight. And you call this supporting the troops?
Geez, look at the drama queen.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Iraq did pay the palistinians to blow up Isrealis. But the US doenst call the palistinains terrorsts so that is not a link to terror.
(Just catching up on this thread.)
Huh? Most in the US recognize people that blow themselves to bits killing women and children to further their political cause as terrorists. The Palestinians that do this qualify for this label and I'd wager that at least 95% of americans consider these actions to be terrorist.
You think the US is doing nothing about this? One thing we did was show the entire Middle East what happens to despot national leaders that support this sort of activity. Do you think this message hasn't been received? The only thing that will weaken it is if we lose our resolve to continue exerting the pressure needed to convince these folks that we aren't an easy target and that the cost of killing us will be more than they can bear.
There are those that will never believe any war or aggressive military action is ever justified. At least a war that affects them directly or comes close to home. If they prevail the US will be lucky to be even a third world country within 50 years.
Maslo, ignorant or arrogant? Take your pick, your opinion matters little to me.
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Originally posted by Yeager
There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq
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Is just plan redikulus, comrade.
How many times did our government say that all Saddam had to do was provide some kind of documentation that biological weapons, chemicals, etc that was known to have been in their arsenal had been destroyed, and we wouldn't attack? More than once, as I remember it. And yet, Saddam's regime never offered one shred of evidence or documentation, other than to say "we're innocent" (paraphrase). Most people seem to have forgotten how SH thumbed his nose at the UN resolutions for 12 years.
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Originally posted by Pongo
There was simply no basis for the invasion of Iraq except blatent US aggression. Accept it.
You can accept your own silliness....best to get over it....we'll do it again if we feel it's necessary.
It's fine to disagree....incessant complaining is not very becoming nor productive.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Good luck with your national security!
Theres a dozen far more dangerous nations to your security and a bunch of lesser evils.
Interestingly this smaller threat is somehow taking priorioty over these dozen others...
Anyway, this threat to national security which your forces are occupying, has caused more losses than a few regular kind of terrorist attacks.
I'd be rather interested to see the total casualty figures from Iraq, including the wounded, which usually tends to be a bigger number than KIAs.
Especially the ones with permanent damage.
Ahhh...the simple minded speak again.
This action speaks loudly to others....to assume the US has no active foreign policy regarding NK, Iran and others is silly of you.
Your best hope is Kerry in the White House....he'll suck your hind titty and make you feel good while others in the world will build up and attack us again....then this righteous indignation of yours will pale to reality and the coming US response.
To act now is the answer....you might enjoy seeing us get ours with a mushroom cloud over Manhattan, but you won't enjoy the US response I assure you.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Okay I have a question,
This is pointed at Mr. Black but anyone can answer.
Why is it conventional wisdom that Saddam needed to be removed from power?
Reason I ask is who is going to hold back the religious fundamentalists now? Wouldn’t a better solution had been to lift sanctions and resume the business of doing business thereby strengthening business partnerships making it un-desirous for Saddam to attack?. This has been our policy with communist China for more than 10 years now and seems to me to be a win-win situation for both our countries.
Gosh! that sounds so Republican of me. Why are you guys not acting like Republicans?
Resume relationships so that you could throw it back in the face of our President for doing business with the likes of a murderer....I think we tried that....didn't work.
Sometimes issues are black and white....of course that shouts in the face of the left who prefer the milky middle ground which allows for the anything goes, it's my right, free speech kinda thingies eh?:)
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Originally posted by Pongo
Rip
He presented no proof or evidence, what is there to refute?
Iraq did pay the palistinians to blow up Isrealis. But the US doenst call the palistinains terrorsts so that is not a link to terror. If the Palistinians were terrorsts certainly under the speech given and quoted by Bush the US would be hunting them down. Not negotiating with them and trying to get Isreal to give the terrorists what they want?
So that is not a valid link to terror is it...
The rest of the post is babble. If after 2.5 years of the war on terror that is what counts as proof enough to invade a country and kill 1000s of people then things are sad indeed.
In what must be the world record for double think,Rude even has the weakness of mind and moral to present evidence of Bushes stated ambition to ivade Iraq and his pathetic (but successfull) attempts to link Iraq with 9/11 as evidence of some kind of proof that the invasion of Iraq was warrented. As if evidence that bush announced he would invade Iraq 2 years before "the evidence" made him do it is some kind of glowing redemption of his actions and not a concrete proof that he was not interested in the slightest in really hunting down terrorists but in sowing fear to enable him to do what he wanted with the US military.
So Rip. All I say is what does justification or proof have to do with it. Your country has paid for the capability to take over other countries and your president lies just enought to pacify th 40% of the vote he needs to stay in power.
If any other country in the world or in history waged war on such rediculous excuses you and Rude and the "conservative" crowd here would not accept it for one second.
You hope there is some fact that will emerge to justify the unjustifiable. You have had Iraq to yourselves for nearly a year.
Had thousands of US operatives there to find some justification for the invasion. Any.
Yet this pathetic list of "testamony" from ex Iraqis that had to buy thier way with the CIA is your evidence, Gut feelings.
Are you not the least bit suspicios Rip that after so long in posession of the country your coutnry has found nothing?
Imagine if the US found no evidence of Nazism in germany by mid 1946.
So no I dont accept Rudes list as justification of the invasion of Iraq. Easy to justify an invasion of Saudi Arabia. But Jr is not about to do that.
Easy to justify an invasion of Saudi Arabia. But Jr is not about to do that.
and why wouldn't Jr. do that?
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No one likes being deceived, even me. Do I believe or at least suspect I was misled about Iraq? Maybe.
Do I believe that much of the middle east is a hotbed of anti-american sentiment? Definitely.
Would that hatred go away if we hadn't invaded Iraq? Of course not.
Are most middle eastern leaders now much more wary of the US? Certainly.
Would they have embraced us and forgotten their hate if we had discovered large caches of WMD in Iraq? Ridiculous to think so. I'd go so far as to say they fear us even more because we acted on suspicion alone. If we can't make them love or respect us, fear will do.