Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Batz on February 15, 2004, 05:57:06 AM
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- a metallic vessel usually used for boiling liquids
Here's the context:
During Oct '44 - May '45 the German defenders in Courland (Kurland) referred to the the area as the Courland Kettle (Kurland-Kessel). I assume this means like a "pressure cooker" or at the boiling point (ready to boil over).
Is there a similiar Russian word for this context?
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My wife is so much better at this than I am... hang on a minute
-Sik
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Hmmm, I've come up with a few, obviously I'd defer to the Natives on this, but I find that people are always quicker to correct than to assist :)
Kettle: Chainik (doesn't have the right connotation IMO)
Pressure Cooker: Skorovarka
Crucible: Tigel
I can't come up with anything that has effective alliteration though
-Sik
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I'm fluent in russian, so here's some info:
CHIANIK is tea kettle, derived from the word CHIA--Russian for Tea
SKAVOROTKA is a frying pan
SAMOVAR is a russian tea brewing device that boils and brews and releases the ready tea through a spigot.
skora-varka, derived from the words skora(fast) and vareet(to boil) is a pressure cooker.
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Kessel was used for any encircelment.
Smolensk, Wjasma, Demjansk, Stalingrad etc.
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Originally posted by LLv34_Snefens
Kessel was used for any encircelment.
Smolensk, Wjasma, Demjansk, Stalingrad etc.
yep...but isn't that a German word?
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Wow... Something educational on the O-Club, thats a first. :D
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kociol by polish ;)
tigel will be best translation
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I believe they're reffering to cauldron not kettle. For example Oosterbeek (IIRC) was called der hexen kessel, the witches cauldron. As for the Russian word..shrecked if I know.
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KOTIEL
http://forum.wbfree.net/forums/showthread.php?p=266442#post266442
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Originally posted by pugg666
I believe they're reffering to cauldron not kettle. For example Oosterbeek (IIRC) was called der hexen kessel, the witches cauldron. As for the Russian word..shrecked if I know.
Couldron (or pot) is Kastryula
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I speak neither German nor Russian.
Is KOTIEL correct for the context I described above? I don't really need the direct translation of Kettle to Russian unless it expresses the same meaning in the context above.
I guess first I would need to correctly define the meaning of the term "Kessel" in this context.
Is it a term referring just to "encirclement" or to the level of fighting within an encirclement?
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Is it a term referring just to "encirclement" or to the level of fighting within an encirclement?
It refers to the intensity of the fighting, house to house...even room to room fighting. Read Cornelius Ryan's A Bridge too far and you get a lot of good descriptions of what you could consider a "kessel".
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yes batz, kotiel is exacly what kettel mean
same as dish where witches boil mixtures ;-)
(http://www.halloween.it/images/witches.gif)
on of meaning is surronding enemy forces and fight with them without possibility of retreat
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(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Kurland/title1.gif)
????
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neg, i will show you in moment
german font is unreadable
edit for add pic
(http://www.dweebs.de/ramzey/kotel.jpg)
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Originally posted by Curval
yep...but isn't that a German word?
Oh yes I wasn't trying to suggest a russian translation, it was just a comment to batz that the Kurland example wasn't the only one the Germans referred to as a Kessel.
Originally posted by pugg666
It refers to the intensity of the fighting, house to house...even room to room fighting. Read Cornelius Ryan's A Bridge too far and you get a lot of good descriptions of what you could consider a "kessel".
Personally I have always thought of it as derieved from the shape of the frontline, and not refering to whether the battle was intense or not.
On the other hand once a force is encircled, the fighting is almost bound to intensify, either because of attempts to eliminate the defenders, or from breakout attempts.
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Another thing, slightly off-topic.
Recently I found one GREAT resource on the net.
Scanned versions of actual german maps from the Ostfront, with german positions and units drawn in. Soviet units also displayed in the amount they were know by the OKH.
That's actually very interesting, for instance when looking at the maps around the dates, just before large russian offensives.
Note: ~2.5MB jpg-file
Kurland, Jan 24th, 1945 (http://www.ac-smolf.dk/fite/45_01_24LageOstKurland.jpg)
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On the other hand once a force is encircled, the fighting is almost bound to intensify, either because of attempts to eliminate the defenders, or from breakout attempts.
from the reference, translated into english(cauldron or kettle), it seems to indicate the intensity of the fight( boiling cauldron or kettle) it could also indicate an encirclement, but I think the description I gave is closer to reality. IIRC, and someone correct me here if i'm wrong but the Oosterbeek cauldron wasn't an encirclement(the aformentioned hexen kessel).
anyways this is just my understanding of the words used.
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The russian word "котел" that sounds kind of like "kotyol" (soft 't') is a common military jargon used for a military operation involving encirclement.
The word itself means cauldron, kettle or pot - usually something that is hanging over the fire with a round bottom.
"Kastryula" is a flat-bottomed vessel - usually with two cemicircular handles but sometimes with a single straight one.
miko
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Originally posted by LLv34_Snefens
Another thing, slightly off-topic.
Recently I found one GREAT resource on the net.
Scanned versions of actual german maps from the Ostfront, with german positions and units drawn in. Soviet units also displayed in the amount they were know by the OKH.
That's actually very interesting, for instance when looking at the maps around the dates, just before large russian offensives.
Note: ~2.5MB jpg-file
Kurland, Jan 24th, 1945 (http://www.ac-smolf.dk/fite/45_01_24LageOstKurland.jpg)
Thanks for the link Snefens, I have smaller scanned portions of a similiar map but this is much better.
I reviewed that site and was wondering if you have seen an orbat for the 10th Guards Army of the 2nd Baltic Front Oct 44 - May 45? I am looking for Tank Regiments in particular.
I have good info on the 6th Guards of the 1st Baltic Front (to the west of 2nd Baltic; shown on the map you linked).
Ramzey,
I just through that together to have something to look at while I tried to figure it out.
Thanks for help...
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Writing a scenario, Batz?
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Yes,
The Next one as a matter of fact. It is scheduled for May.
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Originally posted by Batz
I reviewed that site and was wondering if you have seen an orbat for the 10th Guards Army of the 2nd Baltic Front Oct 44 - May 45? I am looking for Tank Regiments in particular.
I have good info on the 6th Guards of the 1st Baltic Front (to the west of 2nd Baltic; shown on the map you linked).
I have found the following for approx July 1944. Accuracy is unknown to me:
10th Guards Army (Suhomlina)
10th Assault Engineer Brigade
37th Tank Regiment (40 tanks - Sherman/Valentine/Churchill)
47th Tank Regiment (35 tanks - T34/76 being replaced by /85)
11991th SPG Regiment (21 SU-76)
6th AT Artillery Brigade
7th Guards Rifle Division
8th Guards Rifle Division
119th Guards Rifle Division
29th Guards Rifle Division
30th Guards Rifle Division
85th Guards Rifle Division
22nd Guards Rifle Division
56th Guards Rifle Division
65th Guards Rifle Division
60th Mortar Brigade (Katyusha)
13th Mortar Brigade
19th Guards Gun Brigade