Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ecke-109- on February 16, 2004, 12:56:38 PM
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When an Enemy Was a Friend
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0197valor.html
By John L. Frisbee
Published at Air Force Magazine, January 1997, Vol. 80, No. 1
Brown's B-17 was perhaps the most heavily damaged bomber to return from combat. It survived because of an enemy's act of chivalry.
Dec. 20, 1943, was a typically cold, overcast winter day in Britain as 2d Lt. Charles L. Brown's B-17F lined up for takeoff. It was 21-year-old Charlie Brown's first combat mission as an aircraft commander with the 379th Bomb Group, the target an FW-190 factory at Bremen, Germany. He and his crew of Ye Olde Pub were to become participants in an event probably unique at that time in the air war over Europe--a mission that would remain shrouded in mystery for many years.
While i'm at it, I though maybe the picture below would interest some. It is from pg 128 out of "Messerschmidt Br109 F, G, & K Series" by Jochen Prein & Peter Rodeike.
Franz Stigler had a laugh when he saw both of these pictures It is a picture of his former wife, Eva, at age 17. He said he doesn't know who gave them to the publishers, because he doesn't even own the pictures himself!
The bombers began their 10-minute bomb run at 27,300 feet, the temperature: negative 60 degrees. Flak was heavy and accurate. Before "bombs away," Brown's B-17 took hits that shattered the Plexiglas nose, knocked out the number two engine, damaged number four--which frequently had to be throttled back to prevent overspeeding--and caused undetermined damage to the controls. Coming off target, Lieutenant Brown was unable to stay with the formation and became a straggler.
Almost immediately, the lone and limping B-17 came under a series of attacks from 12 to 15 Bf-109s and FW-190s that lasted for more than 10 minutes. The number three engine was hit and would produce only half power. Oxygen, hydraulic, and electrical systems were damaged, and the controls were only partially responsive. The bomber's 11 defensive guns were reduced by the extreme cold to only the two top turret guns and one forward-firing nose gun. The tailgunner was killed and all but one of the crew in the rear incapacitated by wounds or exposure to the frigid air. Lieutenant Brown took a bullet fragment in his right shoulder.
Charlie Brown figured the only chance of surviving this pitifully unequal battle was to go on the offensive. Each time a wave of attackers approached, he turned into them, trying to disrupt their aim with his remaining firepower. The last thing oxygen-starved Brown remembers was reversing a steep turn, becoming inverted, and looking "up" at the ground. When he regained full consciousness, the B-17 was miraculously level at less than 1,000 feet.
Still partially dazed, Lieutenant Brown began a slow climb with only one engine at full power. With three seriously injured aboard, he rejected bailing out or a crash landing. The alternative was a thin chance of reaching the UK. While nursing the battered bomber toward England, Brown looked out the right window and saw a Bf-109 flying on his wing. The pilot waved, then flew across the B-17's nose and motioned Brown to land in Germany, which the aircraft commander refused to do. After escorting them for several miles out over the North Sea, the Luftwaffe pilot saluted, rolled over, and disappeared. Why had he not shot them down? The answer did not emerge for many years.
The B-17 did make it across 250 miles of storm-tossed North Sea and landed at Seething near the English coast, home of the 448th Bomb Group, which had not yet flown its first mission. The crew was debriefed on their mission, including the strange encounter with the Bf-109. For unknown reasons, the debriefing was classified "secret" and remained so for many years. Lieutenant Brown went on to complete a combat tour, finish college, accept a regular commission, and serve in the Office of Special Investigations, with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and in other Air Force and State Department assignments until his retirement. He now lives in Miami, Fla., where he is founder and president of an energy and environmental research center.
The image of his strange encounter with the Bf-109 remained firmly embedded in Charlie Brown's memory. In 1986, he began a search for the anonymous pilot. Finally, in 1990, former Oberleutnant Franz Stigler, now living in Canada, responded to a notice published in a newsletter for German fighter pilots. By comparing time, place, and aircraft markings, it was determined that Stigler was the chivalrous pilot who had allowed Brown's crew to live. Not surprisingly, Brown and Stigler have become close friends.
On that December day in 1943, there had been two persuasive reasons why Stigler should have shot down the B-17. First, earlier in the day, he had downed two four-engine bombers and needed only one more that day to earn a Knight's Cross. Second, his decision to not finish off the aircraft was a court-martial offense in Nazi Germany and if revealed could have led to his execution. He considered these alternatives while flying formation with the B-17, "the most heavily damaged aircraft I ever saw that was still flying." He could see the wounded aboard and thought, "I cannot kill these half-dead people. It would be like shooting at a parachute."
Franz Stigler's act of chivalry has been justly, though belatedly, honored by several military organizations here and abroad. On the other hand, Charles Brown was not decorated for his heroism over Germany, which never was reported by the 448th Bomb Group at Seething to his commanders. Such are the fortunes of war and its aftermath.
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wow good story reminds me of Johnsons P-47 "half pint"
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Damn good story. Often in AH if I find a hurt bird trying to make it home I attempt to give escort back to his lines or atleast before his friends think they will jump me. I wonder if anyone else does this.
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Great story, thanks.
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This is from the interview of Franz Stigler right?
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A similar story from the other side of the world:
Several years ago, a former Dutch military nurse -- now a retired woman in her 70's -- contacted the Japanese Red Cross (or some similar charitable organization), attempting to locate a Japanese fighter pilot who spared her life somewhere over Java (New Guinea?) one day in 1942. According to her account of the event, she was flying in a Dutch military DC-3 (C-47) air ambulance at low altitude over dense jungle. On board were wounded soldiers and several children who were being evacuated from a combat area. Suddenly, a Japanese "Zero" fighter appeared alongside the plane. The nurse could see the Japanese pilot's facial features clearly. She and some of the children (!) stood by the tiny cabin and cockpit windows of the DC-3 and began frantically trying to wave him off. It is not hard to imagination the panic they must have experienced while pantomiming as if their lives depended on it (and they DID!).
After a few eternal moments of what must have been sheer terror for the desperately pantomiming passengers, the "Zero" gave a quick, acknowledging wing wobble before peeling off and disappearing from sight. The cockpit and cabin of the DC-3 were filled with cheers and sobs of relief.
For fifty-odd years, the Dutch nurse had wanted to meet with the Japanese pilot who spared her life, as well as the lives of the wounded soldiers and children that day. With a stroke of sheer luck, the Japanese Red Cross was able to locate the pilot of the Zero plane, and it was none other than Saburo Sakai, who had been flying a sortie combat air patrol on the day in question. When asked if he remembered the incident, Sakai replied that he did, and that he had thought about downing the plane for a brief moment, as higher command had instructed fighter patrols to down any and all enemy aircraft encountered, armed or not. When he saw the waving hands and horror-stricken faces in the windows of the DC-3, however, he was moved to mercy, thinking that anyone who wanted to live that badly deserved to survive. Apparently, he did not experience similarly tender feelings for many an Allied military aviator who was to stray into his gunsights in the subsequent three years of aerial combat, but on that day over the Javan jungles, he showed mercy. It is an anecdote of a type that is sadly rare in the annals of Japanese WW2 military history, but one that, nonetheless, shows that even the fiercest of warriors can be capable of human compassion.
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The first guy sounded like he was out of ammo. Don't mean to blacken his name though.
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Originally posted by frank3
This is from the interview of Franz Stigler right?
Yes Frank,
its from here:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Stigler.html (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Stigler.html)
Ecke
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Karnak: The incident with this plane could have been a case mentioned by Saburo Sakai. Do a websearch with his name and you will probably find it. If not, let me know, I will look on all my HD's where I probably have the story from his side!
There is an incident mentioned by the German Ace Rudorffer where he escorted a damaged British plane into a safe area. It had happened to himself before, where a British fighter had escorted him to safety.
"In Russia, this would never have happened" he said...
Gosh, I have some more stuff in this direction. What a great idea for a thread I must say.
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Angus,
The specific search I did to get that text was:
"Saburo Sakai" nurse
in Google.
;)
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Hehe, my memory isn't that bad after all then :)
(that is, I hadn't read that far when I wrote my response)
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Stigler is a hero.. but to put it in context.. imagine what would happen to a f16 pilot that escorted a shot up iraq mig to safety.
in Nazi germany.. he would of been shot.
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Another friendly enemy was the British sailor who drowned rescuing Bismarck survivors. He was praised over Radio Berlin and posthumously decorated by the German government.
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There were many such examples of gallantry in WW2, among all the dirt of a war. I don`t remember the names, but there was one US pilot over Hungary, who, having fatally wounded one of our Hungarian Bf 109Gs in combat, manouvered alongside the plane and told his enemy with signs that his ride is on fire, hurry bail out ! The pilot in the 109 did so and survived, but unfortunately when he kicked himself out of the cocpit he probably kicked the rudder, and the burning 109 slipped to the side and collided the Mustang, and the gallant American could not leave the plane and died ... :(
Also there`s the story from Heinz Knoke`s book, who was chased by several P-47s, which shot up his 109 badly, and he attempted for a belly landing. Flying so slow, a P-47 overshoot him, Knoke took the chance, raised the nose and downed the Thunderbolt with a short burst, then crash landed. The American also had to land, close to Knoke`s plane (IIRC Knoke went unconcius and when he woke up the US guy was next to him). They had a friendly chat until a Wehrmach truck arrived and took them to a hospital/POW camp.
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Nice point on Heinz Knoeke's event.I remember it from his book now. Weren't they sharing cigarettes together untill he was picked up?
Anyway, wonder if Knoeke is still alive...
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Ok had it been an RAF bomber, I bet the German guy would have blasted it to pieces and made sure all its crew were peppered.
They probably somehow respected the USAF for bombing during daylight and focusing on strategic targets and not whole cities.
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Brown and Stigler were at WB Con 2000. Very cool guys. :)
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Originally posted by bpti
Ok had it been an RAF bomber, I bet the German guy would have blasted it to pieces and made sure all its crew were peppered.
They probably somehow respected the USAF for bombing during daylight and focusing on strategic targets and not whole cities.
You're kidding right? If not that is a rediculous comment. There was no pinpoint bombing from high alt in WW2. No lazer guided stuff etc. Anytime the bombs dropped, civillians died and homes were destroyed. There was no difference between RAF and USAAF bombs to those on the ground, or in the air.
While the stories like the one posted are few and far between, in particular from that time frame, the stories of bomber crewmen blasted in their chutes on the way down are many along with the stories of Allied airmen killed once they reached the ground.
And that isn't said as an indictment of the German airmen or civillians. It was total war. People's lives were being destroyed. Allied airmen understood that the folks on the ground below them were probably not going to be real happy with someone dropping in by parachute after the bombs had landed.
What the story illustrates is that even within all the insanity of war, there will be people who can seperate themselves from the killing when compassion is called for.
And in Franz Stigler's case, you could argue he, in terms of the overall scheme of things, made a bad choice, as there is/was no knowing how many more Germans would die under the bombs of the B17 of Charles Brown in any following flights he would make.
It's one of those great contridiction stories. The subsequent friendship of Brown an Stigler speaks loudly to the stupidity of war in that these were just two people, regardless of which country they came from and they had no personal hatred for each other. Yet because of the decisions of their leaders they faced each other in battle.
How many other potential friends, ended up killing each other instead?
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Guppy35
You're kidding right? If not that is a rediculous comment. There was no pinpoint bombing from high alt in WW2. No lazer guided stuff etc. Anytime the bombs dropped, civillians died and homes were destroyed. There was no difference between RAF and USAAF bombs to those on the ground, or in the air.
This is of course complete rubbish. The USAAF was tasked with the (so called) precision bombing of German war industry by day. RAF Bomber Command was tasked with "de-housing the German work force" by firebombing residential areas. First Mosquitoes would illuminate the target area, followed by an initial flight of Lancasters that bombed key road junctions to hinder relief efforts and the fire brigades, then the second wave of Lancs would drop thousands of small bomblets that shattered windows and holed rooftops to create good ventilation for the fire, then the final group of Lancs would drop thousands of small phosphor fire bombs and/or napalm setting the city ablaze. This procedure was designed to create a firestorm.
The attack on Dresden was in my opinion the worst of the RAF firebombing not only due to the number of civilians killed, but mostly because it was totally wanton. The estimated death toll ranges from 25.000 to a quarter of a million civilians killed.
Allied bombers dropped an estimated 3.4 kilotons of incendiaries on the German city of Dresden. The attack on Dresden in February 1945 has always been a contentious issue because of the number of lives lost, the lateness of the war, and the cultural significance of the city. The city was a legitimate military target, and the allied air forces did attempt to precisely bomb the city's marshaling yards. In the Dresden bombing attacks of 14-15 February 1945, the American Eighth Air Force and the RAF Bomber Command together employed a total of 1,299 bomber aircraft (527 from the Eighth Air Force, 722 from the RAF Bomber Command) for a total weight, on targets, of 3906.9 tons. Of this tonnage, 1247.6 tons were expanded by the Eighth Air Force, 2659.3 tons by the RAF Bomber Command. The Americans employed 953.3 tons of high explosive bombs and 294.3 tons of incendiary bombs -- all aimed at the Dresden Marshalling Yards. The British employed 1477.7 tons of high explosive bombs and 1181.6 tons of incendiary bombs -- all aimed against the Dresden city area. Military records indicate that about half of the bombs that rained on Dresden were napalm bombs. The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established. Most of the latest German post-war estimates are that about 25,000 persons were killed and about 30,000 were wounded, virtually all of these being casualties from the RAF incendiary attack of 13/14 February 1945. If opprobrium attaches to anyone, it should be Winston Churchill who specifically asked that east German cities be bombed to create refugees and spread havoc.
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Originally posted by Virage
Stigler is a hero.. but to put it in context.. imagine what would happen to a f16 pilot that escorted a shot up iraq mig to safety.
in Nazi germany.. he would of been shot.
In Bush America, he would have been shot, also.
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Im sure pilots just wanted to shoot the enemy planes, not the pilots.
I've heard some stories about a German pilot being shot down, he bailed and while on parachute, the Allied plane (believe a mustang) came back and flew along side him. They saluted eachother like "well done"
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Chuck Yeager once said, "I never saw a chute I didn't shoot, cause I don't wanna have to face that bastard again."
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Originally posted by GScholz
This is of course complete rubbish. The USAAF was tasked with the (so called) precision bombing of German war industry by day. RAF Bomber Command was tasked with "de-housing the German work force" by firebombing residential areas. First Mosquitoes would illuminate the target area, followed by an initial flight of Lancasters that bombed key road junctions to hinder relief efforts and the fire brigades, then the second wave of Lancs would drop thousands of small bomblets that shattered windows and holed rooftops to create good ventilation for the fire, then the final group of Lancs would drop thousands of small phosphor fire bombs and/or napalm setting the city ablaze. This procedure was designed to create a firestorm.
The attack on Dresden was in my opinion the worst of the RAF firebombing not only due to the number of civilians killed, but mostly because it was totally wanton. The estimated death toll ranges from 25.000 to a quarter of a million civilians killed.
You miss the point completely GScholz. My point is that to anyone under the bombs or defending their home from the bombs, there was no difference between an RAF bomb and a USAAF bomb.
You are going to tell me that somehow the Germans 'respected' the USAAF bombs and didn't "respect" the RAF bombs. No one under the bombs was counting tonnage or sat back and thought. "Oh it's the USAAF. That bomb that killed my kids was really meant for a factory, so thats OK."
Understand that my response was to the implication in a previous post that somehow the German pilot respected the USAAF bomber crew more so he let them go, but if it had been an RAF crew he would have blasted them.
I would assume that Stigler was a smart enough person to recognize that any bomber crew was doing their job and that they weren't the one choosing the target or type of bombing.
So no it isn't complete rubbish. Get out from behind the statistics for a bit will ya?
Dan/Slack
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The USAAF bombed factories and other war production related infrastructure by day while the RAF burned down their cities by night. If you can't figure out who the Germans hated most then you Sir are beyond reasoning. You are damn straight that had that bomber been an RAF "Night Pirate" the LW (night)fighter would have shot them down. And if the RAF crew got out they would most likely have been lynched by the civilians on the ground.
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Its always the same in this forum.
Can we stop that now?
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Scholzie.....
The RAF shifted to civilian targets under the command of Harris (belive) when....in 1943? I have never understood why they simply didn't do it right away in 1940, after all, at the time :
a) The Germans were doing that to London with all their might
b) They could have, as German night defence technique was not that developed at the time, - they were flying unhindered to Berlin at night, say alone Hamburg or Bremen then.
This was the reckoning:
RAF Bomber command dropped around 1 million tonnes on the German Reich in WW2. The Americans added a lot to that as well.
RAF bomber command lost around 100.000 aircrew in those operations.
From the combined RAF and USAAF bombing, German casualties of dead+ wounded cross the million.
In 1940 however with the RAF hopelessly trying accurate bombing on military targets, Bomber command lost more people than the victim, Germany, AND actually German losses of life were less than losses in traffic accidents in the same period.
Now, this bomb debate has been ongoing for so many times, with lots of information showing up. Cutting it down to simple facts gives me this, - a matter of debate of course:
1) Actually night bombing accuracy wasn't that low in the late war, RAF Bomber command using pathfinders levelled the best accuracy in day bombing
2)The method of bombing a nation into submission using civilians as the target had been done successfully and thereby proved
3)The "firestorm" method was deliberate, and tried out, first on Hamburg (1943?) with "success". Information surfacing after the war indicates the belief of German high command at the time, that 2 more of those within a limited timeframe would indeed have forced the Reich to submit!
4)RAF BC did not go completely into terror bombing, it was more of an addition to the other jobs. Would actually like to know more about this, but I'm reading up...
Anyway, I doubt that the German people distinguished much between RAF and USAAF in that way. There was more to come than just bombing, - ground attackers roaming everywhere etc.
Something as a the opposite to the point of this thread, however close to me.
My Wifes stepfather is a german born in 1939, his father passed away in 1945. The funeral was strafed by a US fighter!
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Oh, I'll bring you a story to this thread tomorrow,,,,a really nice one, honestly!
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Originally posted by Guppy35
You are going to tell me that somehow the Germans 'respected' the USAAF bombs and didn't "respect" the RAF bombs.
I contradict you warily, but I seem to recall a German civilian making this kind of statement about the Americans vs. British bomber pilots in Middlebrook's Battle of Hamburg.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The USAAF bombed factories and other war production related infrastructure by day while the RAF burned down their cities by night. If you can't figure out who the Germans hated most then you Sir are beyond reasoning. You are damn straight that had that bomber been an RAF "Night Pirate" the LW (night)fighter would have shot them down. And if the RAF crew got out they would most likely have been lynched by the civilians on the ground.
LOL funny how if I don't agree with you, I'm beyond reasoning.
You're right, I'm wrong GScholz. I take it all back. All these years studying the airwar, and I've learned nothing. What a fool I was to question you :)
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by -MZ-
I contradict you warily, but I seem to recall a German civilian making this kind of statement about the Americans vs. British bomber pilots in Middlebrook's Battle of Hamburg.
I'm sure you could find anecdotal evidence out there of people making that kind of statement, but you can also find stories of German people helping shot down RAF bomber crews that came down at night.
Making a blanket statement that the action would have been different if it had been an RAF bomber instead of a USAAF bomber just doesn't work for me.
The German propoganda machine was quick to accuse the American bomber crews of deliberately engaging in terror bombing of residential areas and as evidence pasted photos of an American Lt. wearing his A2 jacket with "Murder Incorperated" on the back.
Read Martin Middlebrook's excellent book on the Nuremberg Raid. He details the experiences of numerous shot down RAF airmen from that raid. Yes there were angry civillians, but at the same time they were also treated with much kindness despite being 'terrorfleigers". The tone is exactly the same as the stories you read about captured American airmen.
MZ, in that B24 crew I've researched for so long you can see all kinds of different experiences by the guys from that one crew who managed to survive to bail out when they went down in early 45. It's pretty clear that one was killed on the ground. One was was wounded and stuck in a German hospital and died for lack of care. One was beaten up and stoned by numerous people only to be 'saved' by a German soldier. Another was shot at while he was coming down in his chute by German soldiers but survived. Another broke his ankle on landing and was hustled to safety by a couple of German soldiers and the last of the survivors was taken into custody without incident, put in the care of a LW pilot who was to drive him to a different destination. On the way the LW pilot stopped at his girlfriend's apartment, left the American in the living room and went off into the bedroom and did the deed while the American waited.
Kinda tough to make a blanket statement on the treatment of airmen based on that wouldn't you agree?
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by GScholz
The USAAF bombed factories and other war production related infrastructure by day while the RAF burned down their cities by night. If you can't figure out who the Germans hated most then you Sir are beyond reasoning. You are damn straight that had that bomber been an RAF "Night Pirate" the LW (night)fighter would have shot them down. And if the RAF crew got out they would most likely have been lynched by the civilians on the ground.
Just to prove you wrong, the direct quote of a LW nightfighter pilot and how he let an RAF "Night Pirate" go, out of respect for their mutual experience in the horrors over Nuremberg on March 30-31, 1944.
From "The Nuremberg Raid" by Martin Middlebrook.
"Oberleutnant Helmut Schulte had already shot down four Lancasters but his Schrage Musik had now jammed and when he found another Lancaster south of Nuremberg he had to attack with his forward firing guns. Schulte had no experience of attacking from the rear and was a little frightened of the bomber's tail gunner. His first attack came to nothing because he had forgotten to arm the nose guns then, as soon as he got into position again, the bomber went into a corckscrew. Schulte followed for five minutes and, when the Lancaster settled on a steady course again, took up position behind the bomber.
'At first he didn't object to this formation flying, and he must have been watching me as I got into position again. As soon as I opened fire he dived away and my shells passed over him. I thought that this chap must have nerves of steel;he had watched me formate on him and then had dived at just the right time. He had been through as much as I had-we both had been to Nuremberg that night-so I decided that was enough. I would like that pilot to know that I deliberately let him go.' "
And Middlebrook found the pilot and crew of the 115 Squadron Lancaster. It was flown by Warrant Officer Howard Hemming and the tail gunner responsible for directing the corkscrew was Sgt. John Carter.
Sure seems to me that Schulte, who had killed four Lancasters and up to 24 British airmen that night, had some respect for that crew of the 5th Lanc he saw. And he let them go because they'd shared the same experience that night. 96 British bombers downed. Schulte could have had #97.
remember Schulte's own words about that "night pirate".
"He had been through as much as I had-we had both been to Nuremberg that night-So I decided that was enough. I would like that pilot to know I deliberately let him go"
Your turn
Dan/Slack
Damn straight I'm beyond reasoning :)
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War is hell and makes perfectly reasonable people do horrible things. Maybe the reason for chivalry and mercy is simply that you just need to rember sometimes that you are human and want to remain sane.
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Here is the goodie I promised:
"Then there was also another German pilot who was lucky, even though I did shoot him down. He was about to strafe Bone airfield in a Me 109 when my bullets hit his engine, so he crash landed on the field. When I landed shortly afterwards, the pilot stood by his wrecked plane and was chatting with a bunch of soldiers that had surrounded him. The circle of soldiers opened up as I approached and someone said: "Leutnant, here's the pilot that shot you down."
The German approached me, smiling, offered me his hand and said in faultless english: "Sergeant, I am thankful that your bullets hit the engine and not the cockpit. Now the war is over for me and I shall survive. I hope you have the same luck." He then handed me his Luger, saying: "You can keep this gun, it's no use for me any more."
This took place in the morning, and the rest of the day he spent with us at dispersal, completely unfetted. He showed us snapshots of his wife and two children and claimed to be pleased with being a prisoner of war as that meant that he would live to see his family again. He denounced the Nazis (as in fact most Germans seemed to do before the end of the war) and said it was obvious that the Germans could not win. We tried to discuss flying and tactics with him, but he refused to be drawn into that subject, and we respected his discretion. We were beginning to form a liking for this ex-adversary and felt a little sad when a group of soldiers came to take him away."
FO Jonsson 111 sqn RAF at Bone airfield in Algiers on the 22nd of November 1942
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GScholtz, you are aware I'm sure, that the USAAF preceeded the RAF attack on Dresden with a High Explosive 'splintering' within Dresden to provide more accelerant for the fire bombing?
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Originally posted by Angus
Scholzie.....
The RAF shifted to civilian targets under the command of Harris (belive) when....in 1943? I have never understood why they simply didn't do it right away in 1940, after all, at the time :
Not really. The first intended RAF bombing was by Churchill`s orders in August 1940, after the (accidental) bombing of London. True that they vacilated a bit till until late 1941, when terror bombing become the backbone of RAF-BC strategy. Churchill himself was very much fond of the idea of terror bombing, in one his letters, dated June 1940, he calls for no less than "... systematic extermination campaign.." (sic!) as a way of conducting war vs. Germany, along the lines of Douhet. If anyone wants, I can qoute that part preciscly.
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I am aware of Douhet's theories.
First conducted successfully by the Germans in WW2, and the final episode by the USAAF, also a success, - i.e. a bombing event that forces surrender.
The RAF bombed Berlin in 1940, their first civilian target was in 1940 as well, however the first raids comparable with the London Blitz were not before 1943 as far as I know.
Churchill had a bad situation. He knew what he was dealing with in terms of ethics, - news of horrendous executions, tortures and finally the Jewish exterminations reached him through Enigma, however, this information was not to be "opened". So, there was no method not to be considered in elliminating "the beast", so to say.
Wouldn't have wanted to be in his boots.
Anyway, the casualties of RAF total bombings still only reach to roughly 10% of the Nazi execution number. Bear that in mind.
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The first RAF raid to target a city rather than individual military or industrial targets within a city was the raid on Mannheim on the night of the 16/17th December 1940.
ie, after approx 20,000 British civilians had been killed in German bombing of London, Coventry, Liverpool etc.
This is of course complete rubbish. The USAAF was tasked with the (so called) precision bombing of German war industry by day.
The largest death toll of any raid or short group of raids was Hamburg. Dresden is possibly second, but the USAAF managed to kill 25,000 in Berlin in a single raid in Feb 45, without any help from the RAF.
First Mosquitoes would illuminate the target area, followed by an initial flight of Lancasters that bombed key road junctions to hinder relief efforts and the fire brigades, then the second wave of Lancs would drop thousands of small bomblets that shattered windows and holed rooftops to create good ventilation for the fire, then the final group of Lancs would drop thousands of small phosphor fire bombs and/or napalm setting the city ablaze.
The RAF used pathfinders to mark the target, followed by the main force with a mix of large HE blast bombs and incendiaries. The RAF didn't use small bomblets to shatter windows and hole rooftops, the only small bomblets the RAF used were the incendiaries.
As to bombing key road junctions to hinder rescue efforts, could you give a source for this? The pathfinders put the markers as close to the designated target area, the rest of the bombers bomber the target markers, nothing else.
The whole purpose of the pathfinders was to mark the target accurately, are you really suggesting the RAF had the accuracy to bomb individual road junctions around a city by night?
The attack on Dresden was in my opinion the worst of the RAF firebombing not only due to the number of civilians killed, but mostly because it was totally wanton. The estimated death toll ranges from 25.000 to a quarter of a million civilians killed.
The best estimates of the death toll are 25 - 35,000.
The 250,000 figure comes from a forgery of a German report on the bombings. The forgery, dated 22nd March 45, claimed 202,040 bodies had been found, and the death toll was expected to reach 250,000.
In 1965 and 1966 the real police reports surfaced.
On the 15th March the Dresden police issued a report saying as of 10th March 18,375 bodies had been recovered.
On the 22nd March the Berlin police issued a report giving the same 18,375 confirmed dead, and expecting the final death toll to reach 25,000.
On 3rd April the Berlin police issued another report saying 22,096 confirmed dead.
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Dresden didn`t even happen. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Dresden didn`t even happen. :rolleyes:
Neither did Guernica, Spain.:eek:
Not even the intended target, the stone bridge, the KondorLegion was trying to hit.:eek: :eek:
It was market day in Guernica when the church bells of Santa Maria sounded the alarm that afternoon in 1937. People from the surrounding hillsides crowded the town square. "Every Monday was a fair in Guernica," says José Monasterio, eyewitness to the bombing. "They attacked when there were a lot of people there. And they knew when their bombing would kill the most. When there are more people, more people would die."
survivor Jose Monasterio
For over three hours, twenty-five or more of Germany's best-equipped bombers, accompanied by at least twenty more Messerschmitt and Fiat Fighters, dumped one hundred thousand pounds of high-explosive and incendiary bombs on the village, slowly and systematically pounding it to rubble.
"We were hiding in the shelters and praying. I only thought of running away, I was so scared. I didn't think about my parents, mother, house, nothing. Just escape. Because during those three and one half hours, I thought I was going to die." (eyewitness Luis Aurtenetxea)
victim of Spanish Civil War
Those trying to escape were cut down by the strafing machine guns of fighter planes. "They kept just going back and forth, sometimes in a long line, sometimes in close formation. It was as if they were practicing new moves. They must have fired thousands of bullets." (eyewitness Juan Guezureya) The fires that engulfed the city burned for three days. Seventy percent of the town was destroyed. Sixteen hundred civilians - one third of the population - were killed or wounded.
News of the bombing spread like wildfire. The Nationalists immediately denied any involvement, as did the Germans. But few were fooled by Franco's protestations of innocence. In the face of international outrage at the carnage, Von Richthofen claimed publicly that the target was a bridge over the Mundaca River on the edge of town, chosen in order to cut off the fleeing Republican troops. But although the Condor Legion was made up of the best airmen and planes of Hitler's developing war machine, not a single hit was scored on the presumed target, nor on the railway station, nor on the small-arms factory nearby.
Guernica after the bombing in 1937
Guernica is the cultural capital of the Basque people, seat of their centuries-old independence and democratic ideals. It has no strategic value as a military target. Yet some time later, a secret report to Berlin was uncovered in which Von Richthofen stated, "...the concentrated attack on Guernica was the greatest success," making the dubious intent of the mission clear: the all-out air attack had been ordered on Franco's behalf to break the spirited Basque resistance to Nationalist forces. Guernica had served as the testing ground for a new Nazi military tactic - blanket-bombing a civilian population to demoralize the enemy. It was wanton, man-made holocaust.
Note: On May 12, 1999, the New York Times reported that, after sixty-one years, in a declaration adopted on April 24, 1999, the German Parliament formally apologized to the citizens of Guernica for the role the Condor Legion played in bombing the town. The German government also agreed to change the names of some German military barracks named after members of the Condor Legion.
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Milo`s great find - a cut and paste text from a TV programme`s site dealing with fine art... . I am sure there are many experts of the Spanish air war amongst them. :rolleyes: The site deals with Picasso`s art, telling he was inspired by it; which is somewhat tricky, considering began the work on the art before the even took place. I guess they are just as bad as art historians as military historians. :o
But serves the cause, right, Milo? "Wanton, man-made Holocaust". Oh sure. The site says so. It must be that way. Even if no proof is offered.
And the reality? The Condor Legion targeted a major crossing point and the railway station in city - the city itself was never a target, neither was it`s citizens, even if v. Richtofen would probably like the idea (and he was always denied from it by the High Command). At least Anglo-French propaganda told so, increasing to the deathtoll to some 7000 (out of the population of 5000, the actual number of deaths was reported to be 98, plus 45 soldiers who died...). Later they worked out the about 800 casulties in Rotterdam to no less than 30 000...
The idea to was get the bridge, and collapse the housing near to it alongside it to serve as road block. As for "Germany's best-equipped bombers" there were new He 111s, but the bulk was made up by Ju 52s, hardly a bomber in the first place, rather pressed into the role, it didn`t even have a bomb bay. Fiat fighters were not present, some old German biplanes provided escort duties, and strafed the city, in which a Republican battalion of around 600 men was housed.
Still the article is not as bad as it could be, I saw a worser one on the net, not any less biased, which argued why didn`t the Germans employed Stukas to destroy the brigde ? To which the answer is clear, the first prototype Stukas did not arrive in Spain for months... but I guess reality is hardly the goal here, the Guernica/Rotterdam/Warsaw "terror bombing" myths don`t serve any other purpose than to justify later Allied acts. Hence their need to rewrite history.
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Oh my god, Isengrim shows his dark side again :(
Okay, I will brief you on ww2's first terror-bombing. No military target, not even a bridge, no air defence. A town crammed with people, some 10 thousands of them. Attacked with bombs and set ablaze, then strafed. Death: unknown. Date: 3rd of sept 1939, location Sulejow, Poland.
Again, on the 13th of Sept, another display of Douhet: The town of Frampol with some 3000 inhabitants DESTROYED. Death: unknown.
A link for pics and so:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm
Needless to say, after some nice and mostly uninterrupted firebombing of Warshaw, the Polish surrendered.
I actually wonder if LW's total deathcount from terrorbombing is any less than the German deathcount from allied bombing?
I also wonder how much it takes to bomb Isengrim away
:D
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I do not wish to comment on the examples you pointed out, I would to do some research prior - anyway it makes me think a bit you found it on a polish site... Sure the LW had it`s time over Poland... but the firebombing(???) of Warsaw?! M8, Warsaw was a sorrounded city, besieged, shelled by siege guns, fired on, fired back, and was also bombed. Good to use as an excuse for the RAF-BC, with a bit of coloring it out. Nothing unusual here, the Brits did the same to Caen, an allied city, yet it was levelled in the siege. You call that one terror bombing, too ? I hope not. Budapest was also bombed heavily during it`s 3 month siege, yet I have never heard anybody refer to it as terror bombing, neither to the US raids on it before the siege. Simply because that wasn`t the goal, it wasn`t the nature of the military operations, but a sideeffect. One has to understand where the difference lays between a besieged city, and one in the Hinterland. One has to understand the difference between side effects and intended mass murder. You cannot find intentions of mass murder in the LW`s orders to bomb Warsaw (Richthofen tried to pursuade it, but he was put down by HQ), you cannot find such in the orders of RAF-BC in regards Caen; but you can find such intentions for Belgrade or Dresden.
And you need a bomber, not bombs to take me away. So send Iceland`s best to my address right away. :lol
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Enough about the do's or nots, I want more stories! :)
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Yes Barbi we all know that the Nazis are your heroes and can do no wrong.:eek:
(http://www.spanishrefugees-basquechildren.org/D1Tag-bombed-2.jpg)
Von Richthofen said
"Yet some time later, a secret report to Berlin was uncovered in which Von Richthofen stated, "...the concentrated attack on Guernica was the greatest success"
You still want to claim denial?:rolleyes: No mention of the bridge, only the town.
"Bombing of Guernica
Republican troops guarded the capital city of the Basqueregion, Guernica while 3000 Nationalist troops lay siege to the city. Nearby,in the town of Burgos, a number of Luftwaffe bombers (an estimated 30)were each loaded with 550 pounds of bombs each. Led by Lt. Rudolf von Moreau,an experienced ace of the German Air Force, the bombers had orders forHitler to bomb the city of Guernica. There were no military targets inthe town except a weapons factory outside of town. Their target was a [/b]smallbridge[/b], the only one into town, that the Socialists supposedly would cross.
On April 26, 1937, the bombers left their base in Burgos and flew to Guernica. Moreau was a head of the group. He flew over Guernicaon a reconnaissance mission. The towns people were alarmed but the local pastor quenched their fears. The church bells were rung and the peoplehid in dugouts. Moreau circled the city and on his next run, he showeredthe city with bombs and grenades. From there, the other planes took several attacks on the city, destroying the central part of the city.
The damage on the city was extensive. After a few hours of bombing, the city was left in ruins. One of the first buildings hit was a shelter for wounded militiamen. Large 1000 pound explosives killed refugees hiding in the dugouts. Fleeing peasants were either killed byexplosives or by machine guns from the planes. Herds of livestock were eliminated. 721 structures were destroyed. The exact number killed is not known although 45 people died in the hospitable. Many more were killed throughout the bombing.
When the smoke cleared three days after the attack, the bridge and the weapons factory were still intact. The officers were told to call the attack a "mistake". Nationalists were told by the Germans that "Red" extremists were responsible for the catastrophe. News of the bombing spread throughout the outraged world. Picasso had a strong reaction to the event. Guernica was different from other bombings because it was a peaceful city that had no reason to be bombed. Motives for the bombing are still questionable. From captured telegrams between Hitler and Wolfram von Richthofen, the German leader of the operation, the bombing was supposed to scare refugees in nearby Bilbao."
Hard to bomb a railraod station when there was none Barbi.:eek:
As for Picasso:
"Pablo Picasso was a world renowned Spanish artist. He was born in Malaga, on the southern tip of Spain, in 1881. He was a natural artist, overtaking his father, a painter, by age 13. He went to art school in Barcelona and had a studio in Madrid. When he was a young man, he moved to Paris. Still visiting Spain a good amount, he was offered the position as director of the Prado museum in Madrid. This was a very honorary position for Picasso to hold.
Working at the Prado was Picasso’s first interaction with the civil war. Shortly after he was given the job, the Prado was damaged in warfare between the Nationalists and Socialists. He saw first-hand the brutal aspect of war. After this event, Picasso created his first artistic protest of Franco’s regime. The Dream and Lie Of Franco was a seriesof panels, similar to a newspaper, that criticized all that Franco was.The painting/poems was sold in pieces and the money was given in supportof the Spanish Republic.
In 1936, Picasso was contracted to construct a mural for the Spanish Pavilion. The pavilion was for the World Fair in Paris that would be held the following year. For a good while, he had no ideas onwhat to make that would impact people. Then, on April 26, 1937, when Guernica was hit, he decided to paint a mural on that event.
Starting on May 1, Picasso started to construct sketchesof his mural. He made several different versions of the various pieces. In his first lubrication, or sketch of the whole picture, Picasso laid out all of the figures. He drew in significant detail using his artisticability to make it look abstinently real. From here, Picasso began to "destroy" his work. Picasso said of his work, "In ancient times, paintings were given their finishing touches in stages. Each day brought something new. A painting used to be the sum of actions. In my case, a painting is thesum of destructions. I paint a work, and then I destroy it.""
Notice Picasso did not start his painting, till after the terror bombing of Guernica, May 1.
And some more"
"The Condor Legion attacked in daylight and flew as low as 600 feet as it had no reason to fear any form of defence from the city. It was market day so the city centre was packed with people from the outlying area around Guernica. The first bombs fell on the city at 4.30 in the afternoon when the main square in the city centre was hit. The first target of the bombers was a main bridge that lead into the city. Apologists for the raid have stated that the Condor Legion had selected strategic targets and that the one failing of the raid was the Legion's inability to accurately hit targets from height. The bombers that came in after the first wave instinctively targeted the area already on fire -again, the city centre.
By the time the Condor Legion had left, the centre of Guernica was in ruins. 1,654 people were killed and 889 wounded. The world was horrified but Franco denied that the raid ever took place. He blamed the destruction of Guernica on those who defended it "
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Is it only me who thinks this guy is a clown ? :rofl
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Why are you asking people about what they think of you, Barbi?:eek:
Better go find some ambulances to chase, so you have some work.
Why no comment in the other thread on the re-supply of Typhoons to bring the RCAF squadrons back to operational status "with-in a few days"?
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the only clown i've noticed is Isegrim the nazi apologist/revisionist.
its a shame that this thread has degenerated into what was or wasn't terror bombing.
the stories of humanity and compassion rising above the horror of war were very compelling. thanks to those who posted them.
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What was this thread about again?
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QUOTE
"the only clown i've noticed is Isegrim the nazi apologist/revisionist. "
hehe,well said, although I must confess that he does sometimes provide good data links.Sort of my opinion, untill proven otherwize.
I wish Boroda would enter a debate like this, - then we'd see some action, hehe
Anyway, this thread was supposed to bring forth POSITIVE and CHIVALRIOUS stories from ww2, which sadly were not too many compared to the massive amount of the darker sort.
I brought one, I will find another, please all do.
The topic of this thread is after all very very nice!
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The Luftwaffe also bombed Zaragoza in the Spanish Civil War. They were great guys. Here's a website to your taste Isegrim:
http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/idx.htm
Although reading some of the 'articles', I wouldn't be surprised if you get your inspiration from them.
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Milo Morai,
While the Guernika bombing was indeed a trial in terror bombing, it was done in express contradiction with Franco's explicit orders not to target Civilians. Guernika is, from I have read (and I did quite a bit) a German essay about terror bombing made out of Franco's knowledge and used a LOT by republican propaganda which tried to move international support along his cause.
Fact is that it caused 120 dead people in a 5000 inhabitantas vilage. Hardly a "massacre". But in a dirty war like Spanish Civil War, propaganda could be even more devastating.
Regards,
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If Guernica was intended as a terror bombing, please tell me why they did bother aiming for the bridge, telling the crew to go for it ? Why complicate things ?
Why not just tell them go there and kill everybody ?
Psob, me a nazi apoligst and other bs ? I am sure somebody in your family took a very active part in the holocaust, hence your aggressive stance. Ugly family history.
Dowding, you visit interesting sites... :rolleyes:
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What happened to your German Supermen Barbi? They could not even hit the bridge, not even once, and in daylight when it was quite visible. :rolleyes: :rofl :rofl
The bridge was the excuse.:)
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Unguided bombs are by no means precision weapons, they missed more often than not. "German superman"? Is smell a very clear sign of racism in your posts, which are tendenciosly anti-german all the time, and sometimes anti-french.
After all, you have to hate somebody for what a pathetic life you have. Jews, Germans, Arabs, the French - it`s easy to pick for you. sitting in front of the monitor all day, hitting refresh ever half a minute and dying of boredom if you can`t incite a dirty little flame war, like you did in this thread, and you do on other forums. So far your activity on these boards was only destructive and poisioning, and nobody profited from it. You don`t provide any information, just ruin threads, until they degenerate into a mud fest.
I doubt that anybody likes your presence here. Not even the people I often don`t agree with.
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I think you hit a nerve, MiloMorai... and quite possibly the truth.
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Some interesting titles from the site Dowding likes to visit :
"England declares the Jewish war on the world"
"Greetings From Auschwitz"
"The Spiritual Struggle of National-Socialism:"
"THE SLAYING OF A VIKING - The Epic of Vidkun Quisling"
"Science, harmful to Holocaust-Industry"
"PEARL HARBOR: MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES"
I don`t think much comment should be made on somebody who knows such a site so well as Dowding.
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Milo a Nazi-hater? Nooooooooooooooo.
Isengrim: I think you are the only one on this board that belives that the LW did not use terror bombing as a method.
BTW, only one of my polish sources was from poland.
Anyway, it is beyond dispute what method was applied to set Warshaw ablaze: Shovelling incendiaries through the side door of Ju52's.
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LOL Barbi, I started a flame war.:rofl :rofl :rofl
Who was it the mentioned the RAF attacks as terror raids, Barbi? All I did was show that it was not the Brits that did it first and to an undefended town, Guernica, which Dresden was far from being.:eek:
As for the German Supermen you are the one that is claiming that the Germans built the best of everthing and no one else could come close. Nashwan, Angus myself and some others are only trying to get you back to reality from your fantasy world of the uber German war machine. You are the one always putting down American and British weapons of war.
Yes Dowding, I would not put it past Barbi for being a Neo-Nazi or at least a closet Nazi. You should have seen the words he used on you before he did his edit - foul, foul, foul.
Now I am so glad to hear that unguided bombs are by no means precision weapons. :eek:
Dowdings site is your required reading Barbi. Right up your line of thought.
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Originally posted by Angus
Isengrim: I think you are the only one on this board that belives that the LW did not use terror bombing as a method.
In this board ? I dont know. There are ones who actually believe here that the RAF BC was not using terror bombing as a ("the" would be more appropriate) method. I never see you argue about that. Why ?
I know that the "terror bombing" version of Guernica/Warsaw/Rotterdam is a myth and was developed by Allied propaganda. I have already said that you can find examples of German terror bombing, i.e "Vergeltung" and the bombing of Belgrade,but the case is you don`t really want to get that, and wish to stay with your preconception. Sadly this won`t make the above 3 cities a case of terror bombings.
If you have read any serious books in the subject you would know that as well... I suppose you should start with James S. Corum`s : "The Luftwaffe
Creating the Operational Air War, 1918–1940" instead of a google search...
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/corluf.html
Drawing heavily upon archival sources, Corum discloses the debates within the General Staff--led by the likes of Hans van Seeckt, Helmuth Wilberg, Wolfram von Richthofen, and Walter Wever--about the future role of airpower and the problems of aligning aviation technology with air doctrine. He challenges previous accounts and demolishes a number of myths, for example demonstrating that Germany did not dismiss the potential of strategic bombing or embrace terror bombing of civilian populations, and was not heavily influenced by its popular culture's romance with aviation.
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Originally posted by Angus
Milo a Nazi-hater? Nooooooooooooooo.
Angus, I have no use for the Messicraps.:) (have to use 'crap' as can't use the 's' word)
My favourite a/c are those designed by Kurt Tank. Did he not design those a/c for the LW?:eek:
Here is another of Barbi's dumb claims.
The late model 109s had better vision for the pilot to the rear than did pilots in bubble canopy a/c such as the P-47, P-51, Spitfire, Typhoon, Tempest.
Something else I found out about Barbi. He joined Vo101, a Il-2/FB squad, but finds that it is much too stressful to participate in online combat.:):aok
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Another very on-topic post... :rofl
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From Isengard..errr...Isengrim
"I know that the "terror bombing" version of Guernica/Warsaw/Rotterdam is a myth and was developed by Allied propaganda."
Now you can't be serious, this is almost Boroda-quality of history revision. I guess this is a myth together with Katyn forest, and the survivors of those raids were dreaming.....
Was there a London Blitz?
Have you been to Warsaw? I have, and it bears very similar scars as so many German cities.
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Angus, are you aware of the fact that during the London Blitz, the Germans offered to cease bombing for 3 days during Chrismas, provided the British will do the same ?
Just answer yes or no.
PS: I haven`t been to Warsaw and I have absolutely who or what Boroda is.
PS2 : Start spelling my name correctly or I will get rude.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Something else I found out about Barbi. He joined Vo101, a Il-2/FB squad, but finds that it is much too stressful to participate in online combat.:):aok
Milo Morai refers to a single case when I joined to an online server on where he was participating (under one of his many nicknames). I shot him down 6 times in row, then he started yelling things like "nazi scum", "go f. urself nazi" , "go away nazi" "burn in hell nazi pos" etc. Heh, some can`t loose ! :D
This is the regular style of Milo as you may have noticed, no wonder no squadron wants him. :D
As for me, I have not joined VO 101, I am one of it`s very founders, Briddy. And it`s well within the top 5 Axis online war Squads. :D In mid january was our 2000th online war sortie with 900 airial victories, ranking 3rd of all squads.
In any case, from that on, I will ignore Moron`s posts, whatever he says, maybe there`s some way to save this thread from him.
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Continue here :
Cleaned up "When an Enemy Was a Friend" thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1132026#post1132026)
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Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Milo Morai refers to a single case when I joined to an online server on where he was participating (under one of his many nicknames). I shot him down 6 times in row, then he started yelling things like "nazi scum", "go f. urself nazi" , "go away nazi" "burn in hell nazi pos" etc. Heh, some can`t loose ! :D
As for me, I have not joined VO 101, I am one of it`s very founders, Briddy. And it`s well within the top 5 Axis online war Squads. :D In mid january was our 2000th online war sortie with 900 airial victories, ranking 3rd of all squads.
More lies by the habitual liar Barbi. I have never been online when you were there so it is very impossible to have called you those names.:rofl :rofl :aok
Yes Barbi but you are not one that 'flies' online for Vo101 to acheive those results.:rofl :aok
Did you change your nick for you are not listed as a current member of Vo101. Another tidbit I learned that you stance on uber Germany is an embarrisment to the members of Vo101.
http://www.pumaszallas.hu/index1.html
In fact from these stats you flew 11 missions, total.:)
http://www.pumaszallas.hu/index1.html
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Isegrim
Is it only me who thinks this guy is a clown ?
you asked about clowns. i answered. you don't like my opinion, too bad.
Psob, me a nazi apoligst and other bs ? I am sure somebody in your family took a very active part in the holocaust, hence your aggressive stance. Ugly family history.
then you accuse my family being involved in nazi hate crimes. so much for a rational discussion. wtf you know about my family? guess my opinion of your unbalanced view as a nazi apoligst/revisionist hit home.
when you post stupid things in a public forum, you ought to be able to deal with someone disagreeing with you.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
More lies by the habitual liar Barbi. I have never been online when you were there so it is very impossible to have called you those names.
Yeah of course..."Chicken" . Six times you went down in row, in miriad of curses . :) You are even less talented flying than doing your everyday clown action here. On the 2nd thought, too bad you brought it up, eh? :D
Did you change your nick for you are not listed as a current member of Vo101. Another tidbit I learned that you stance on uber Germany is an embarrisment to the members of Vo101.
LOL, the "uber Germany" thing again. Poor racist... :rofl As for how much embarrisment my presence there, you should ask them on the regular squad I&I. :cool: Just be sure to secure urself a good runaway route, hehe.
http://www.pumaszallas.hu/index1.html
In fact from these stats you flew 11 missions, total.:)
Too bad it`s another lie, Moron, there`s no such listing mission on the squadpage, just the news section. :D
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Isegrim bevetés vadász bombázó földi lelőtték
IOW 0 0 0 0 0
VEF 0 0 0 0 0
VEF2beta 4 0 0 2 3
VOW beta2 7 0 1 0 1
össz 11 0 1 2 4
from the squad site Barbi http://www.pumaszallas.hu/index1.html
click on pilotak > aktiv allomany > Összeített statisztika and check near the bottom of the grey column.
Again, I have never met you online, so you are spewing more of your vile lies, as usual.
Personnel of:
VO101/1 Zongora
VO101_Tobak
VO101_Menyus
VO101_Shadow
VO101_Smile
VO101_RatBaG
VO101_Maci
VO101_Rudi
VO101_artesz
VO101_NateDog
VO101/2 Retek
VO101_Yosser
VO101_Chewy
VO101_Gabesz
VO101_Doro
VO101_Sami
VO101_tvr
VO101_Lecsó
VO101/3 Drotkefe
VO101_Sanyo
VO101_HWick
VO101_Ikarusz
VO101_Tranek
VO101_Attiska
VO101_Balázs
VO101_Mortuus
I don't see any Isegrim listed.
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So you say I have never flown in either IOW or VEF ? Very good one indeed! :D Better ask Jg26Adigalland or FB Viks about that . :) I have been betatester of BOTH Il-2 and Il-2:FB, my name is listed in both`s credits... yet you say you never met me in combat. Sure you don`t want to remember. :lol As for the stats, they were last updated on 2003.10.25, and I as I see they don`t include the VEF1 and IOW1 sorties for quite a couple of guys other than me.
Now, what else, Moron ? 8 post of you here, NONE of them on-topic. No woman around to spend your time on, eh ? No wonder. Now hit F-5 every 10 secs for a reply, hehehe. What a life... :cool:
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Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
As for the stats, they were last updated on 2003.10.25, and I as I see they don`t include the VEF1 and IOW1 sorties for quite a couple of guys other than me.
Site last updated Tuesday, November 4, 2003, 2:06:58AM which is 2003.11.04.
What nick was I using Barbi when we met in your fantasy combat?
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Isengrim one-oh-whatever?
Do you fly online at all?
Would love to joust with you in AH.
I'll sacrifice myself and fly a Spit :D
Errr...or maybe it's overmodelled in AH?
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Angus, it was the truth what I said, for I got that from a reliable source(to protect the innocent, I can't say who it was)
Barbi challenge SkyChimp on the Ubi board (Il-2/FB) but he chickened out of a 1on1 with him.:eek:
And the rest of his slanderous vile comments are lies. He has been back posting since but has not said what nick I used when I said those 'nasty' words to him.