Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rude on December 11, 2001, 12:37:00 PM
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Now, I don't fly as much as most folks do, but still, I don't ever see or fight the better pilots in the sim. Contrary to popular belief, my squad flies in the weeds most all of the time, leaving when we see the odds changing against us. Still, I would think that every once and awhile, I would have a turn with some of the better pilots.
Do you guys just see a gaggle of ponies and run away or what? The only pilots that I can remember fighting or even seeing are Nath, RA, Fester, but thats about it.
Where ya be boys and if I ask while online, will ya buck up and invite us to the dance?
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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I am not in a squad; Hell yes I run when I see a gaggle of high ponies! I don't consider myself better than average, so why in the world would I want to jump in the middle of you guys- the only issue at that point is which of you guys will whack me when I am fighting the other. Not my idea of fun.
Now if I was in a squad it would be entirely different. ;)
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Of course, I wouldn't include myself in such exalted company, but the last time a couple of them TAS guys blew all that alt to jump my low and slow Hurri, they didn't make it back to file the AAR.
:)
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I'm certainly not an ace by any means but since tour 17, I'm 10-4 against the 13th. That count? :)
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I checked myself vs. Popeye and Apache back thru tour 17...results:
0-0 vs. Popeye
1-1 vs. Apache
Makes my point...seems I never get to fight the old farts :) It's just weird. I seem to never run into any of the older more polished pilots. Maybe we're just all too smart and our SA is so good, we avoid each other by default? LOL...I just made myself giggle :)
<S> to you both!
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Rude ]
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lol, I see your point.
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I flew for a couple of hours today. A9 was being attacked by the Knights (I was Bishop) and I came in from a ways away at about 20k. There were 5 Knights over 10k around the field picking off low cons then grabbing alt.
When I arrived with a distinct alt advantage, I spotted 2 190s and an F4u-1D. I came in above one of the 190s and tried to keep my wings attatched. Both 190s had turned and started heading for home the second they saw me come in. The F4u-1D tried to clear me off of the 190, and succeded to a point, but he did not have as much energy as I and I turned the tables on him quickly... the 190s never turned to help... they just kept running as I downed the F4u-1D.
My belief is the veterans are all looking for easy targets and getting out of dodge when things get too risky. Afterall... there are sooo many easy targets right now they can afford to be picky. That means they spend a considerable amount of time avoiding each other.
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I was thinking the other day how rare it is to run into a AH veteran anymore...then I started thinking, not alot of us sit there and try to re-up a continously vulched field...not alot of us go beyond the "edge of the furball" only to be devoured by the hordes,...not alot of us fly suicide missions, etc....that's why you rarely see vets around, they tend not to be at the wrong place at the wrong time since they done that,been there if you know what I mean. ;)
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Mr.Hanky,
What was their fuel status?
What was their ammo status?
Was there a goon IB?
Whats the difference of them having alt and picking off climbing cons, and you coming in from a distant field with alt and picking them off?
Wouldn't you agree that supressing a field until either a capture goon arrives or re-inforcements arrive to take the field?
To many variables there to assess with a summary like yours Mr.Hanky, me thinks you just attempted a troll. Nice try, but my 5 year old trolls better than you ;)
Incidently, as long as you have airplanes that fly over a field where enemy airplanes try to take off, you will ALWAYS have vulching ...ALWAYS :)
[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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I was not critiquing the pilots Ripsnort. I could care less how they chose to fly. It was an observation.
When I see a person leave when things get risky, I think "vet". When they don't leave and they get killed instead, its never a vet ID.
BTW, those two 190s left from A9 and proceded to A10 once they grabbed some more alt. Unfortunately, the entire attack force they must have been trying to defend was killed in about 2 minutes by a lone fighter. They rolled in about 3 minutes later after regaining some alt... with nothing to protect. They never really engaged the fighter, chosing to do a large amount of BnZ passes. The fighter landed at the VBase (low on fuel) and exited... leaving the two 190s to guard empty airspace.
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Editted my post, re-read it please. :)
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Now, give Mr. Hanky some due. He is responding to the original thought of the thread, which is in essence a call for players to provide a challenge for his squad. In addition, Rude made the comment of how people ran "when they saw a gaggle of P-51's". Seems Mr. Hanky's response was in line with that comment. I think it is obvious too that the 190s were running like hell to avoid dying, not conserving fuel. ;)
You are onto the truth nonetheless, Rip. Some of the vets are being timid because they can get kills by playing around the edge of the fight, or teaming up against inferior numbers. Nothing wrong with that, but that does make this discussion moot.
I'm surprised lazs hasn't found his way here yet, the irony of the posting is staggering. Realism guys becoming bored with smart play? Course, it could be that Rude was trolling for some fun, but it sure would be easy to twist the intent of the thread... ;)
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Your statement "My belief is the veterans are all looking for easy targets and getting out of dodge when things get too risky."
Isn't that what being a veteran is all about? I mean to fly smart, take the path where your least likely to get shot down?? (easy target, you have the alt, enemy does not, as in Rudes case of rovering P51's)
Think about what makes them survive, and why you don't survive, most of the Aces I've met fly smart and live because they tend to stay away from high risk areas or enter high risk areas with plenty of wingmen to cover one another.
Incidently, when I look at an Ace, I never consider the score that HTC keeps, its slanted towards gunnery and time online, therefore not a good measure of ones skill at all IMO.
[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Not all "vets" care about mindless self-preservation.
Hell, yesterday I killshootered myself on AKNimitz on purpose because I was bored and didn't feel like making the long trip home to land.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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OK Ripsnort, I re-read your edited post and I believe you are actually the one making assumptions. Its entirely defensive.
I didn't get into the details of the attack.. and said nothing about the status of the base... nor did I mention vulching.
The base's ack were up. 2 fuel tanks were destroyed and the city was completely intact. I serioulsy doubt that is a group of smart flyers trying a coordinated base attack.
The newbies went low and were killed. The vets stayed high and got out of town when a real threat arrived.
The vets are flying smart. The newbies are not. There is little to no reward trying to engage a pilot with good SA right now because there are so many others that don't even know what SA means.
An example:
Two 190s are chasing a P-51. You dive in on them and begin to close. One 190 peels off, but the other remains fixated on the P-51... you get an easy kill on him and turn to engage the other 190, but he is too far away. One flew smart, the other did not. One died as a result, the other did not. If you had to guess.. which one was the vet?
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Isn't that what being a veteran is all about? I mean to fly smart, take the path where your least likely to get shot down?? (easy target, you have the alt, enemy does not, as in Rudes case of rovering P51's)
Ripsnort, why are you making it sound like you are arguing with me? I was not condemning the pilots... simply noting what happened.
The vets are flying smarter. That's what makes them vets. They don't go into hairy situations, but they still rack up kills. That is because they prefer to have the advantage. The likelyhood of a vet choosing to engage with even or worse odds is less than with newbies. As a result, you won't see many vets if you decide to fly smart... or at least they won't be much of a threat.
There are simply too many people on right now that don't fly smart to make it worth the trouble to engage those that do.
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Originally posted by Mr Hanky:
OK Ripsnort, I re-read your edited post and I believe you are actually the one making assumptions. Its entirely defensive.
I didn't get into the details of the attack.. and said nothing about the status of the base... nor did I mention vulching.
The base's ack were up. 2 fuel tanks were destroyed and the city was completely intact. I serioulsy doubt that is a group of smart flyers trying a coordinated base attack.
The newbies went low and were killed. The vets stayed high and got out of town when a real threat arrived.
The vets are flying smart. The newbies are not. There is little to no reward trying to engage a pilot with good SA right now because there are so many others that don't even know what SA means.
An example:
Two 190s are chasing a P-51. You dive in on them and begin to close. One 190 peels off, but the other remains fixated on the P-51... you get an easy kill on him and turn to engage the other 190, but he is too far away. One flew smart, the other did not. One died as a result, the other did not. If you had to guess.. which one was the vet?
I know, I know! The killer of the first 190 :D
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I'm with ya there, Todd. I usually try to rtb, but have been known to ditch to spare what little action time I had.
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My belief is the veterans are all looking for easy targets and getting out of dodge when things get too risky.
I'm ok with easy. I'm also ok with lucky. I'm even ok with the occasional undeserved kill via collision or proximity.
What I'm not ok with is offering myself or my squadmates up for the slaughter due to fighting with a disadvantage. When we enter a large fight, we do it on our terms. A fistful of energy and sharp SA is all ya need. Many of us will engage in this manner when flying alone. The only difference is the margin for error shrinks considerably. We don't need 20k worth of alt and are not shy about blowin through the middle of the soup...we just try to make sure we keep our eyes in the direction of inbounds.
Bringing home kills is just fun for us. Just like furballin is fun for Lazs. Neither is a bad thing, just different.
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Rude.. there is absolutely no need to defend yourself. You asked a question and I answered it.
If you chose to fly with groups of squadies and dictate the terms of a fight, then you should know that you aren't going to have alot of engagements with others trying to do the same thing. They are mutually exclusive.
If you want to fight veterans, act like a newbie... I guarantee you'll find some.
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Well, with all Hanky Panky aside (pun intended for further self-analysis)...I fly to live, I am not an Ace, I am a vet though...but I do get bored from time time, so you'll see me blasting in from 500 feet on your rear fields where folks like Hanky are upping to get that extra altitude, then I jump them from below when their wheels are up...MAN that is a rush! :) My 5 yr old son has taken on the habit lately too. :)
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Color me lost, but I don't see what the original post is asking for, other than volunteers to be squeak-slapped by a group of mustangs with advantage. Does that sum it up? ;)
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Well, i dunno.
I don't fly much but seem to run into Fariz in alot of my flights lately :)
It doesn't always end with one of use killing the other, but we usually find out it's us two by saluting the unknown pilot :)
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
My AH homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/209.gif)
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Ripsnort, you are starting to act childish.
I don't launch from rear fields. I suppose I can see where you'd assume that (just like all of your other assumptions in this thread) given that I was pretty high when I entered the engagement described above. But, that is only an assumption... and like most assumptions it is wrong.
I gave an example of a situation I encountered today. You took that and made 40 different assumptions and then accused me of not really knowing what was going on. Do you see a little bit of irony there?
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I got an assist on Hitech over the weekend :)
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<S> Rip.
Got to defend MrHanky here a little. I can vouch that MrHanky does the low alt front line stuff. I've run into him 3 or 4 times lately. All below 5k. I remember once he was at our field and twice I was at his.
I do see the logic in his response. If I'm in bish territory and I see a group of P51's above me (prob. the 13th), darn right I'm bookin' out, lol.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Color me lost, but I don't see what the original post is asking for, other than volunteers to be squeak-slapped by a group of mustangs with advantage. Does that sum it up? ;)
Yeah that seems to pretty much sum it up. :D
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Hehe, lately I feel like I'm channeling Lazs. Scary! :eek:
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I rarely catch who I've killed. Usually, I don't even have time to check the buffer to see I've gotten a kill or the assist. As such, I don't know which of the 13th TAS I shot down this tour (entering Rude's name in the squad list shows I'm 1/0 against the Rude squad this tour). The reason I don't kill you often and you don't kill me often is the SA. You're not gonna die to a Spit, and I'm not going to die to a Pony under normal circumstances. I checked, and over all the tours I've flown, I'm even against Rude's squad, all of 7/7 I think.
I think the only vet I've tangled with on multiple occasions that I remember is hblair. I swear every 109 I saw was him for a tour. ;)
I've fought alongside many vets (other than my squaddies obviously) though. I always find that more memorable than seeing you shot down vet #39, e.g. impromptu winging with Mathman cuz we both happened to up Hellcats from a CV simultaneously. It was a blast! We come into a furball at about 5000 ft. We see a friendly with 2 cons on him, so we dive in. 10 seconds later Victory 1 by Mathman and Victory 1 by Nifty comes up in the buffer followed by "thanks guys! <S>". Don't have the slightest clue who we killed. ;)
Oh, I did shoot down Mason over the weekend. ;) I always seem to remember the FDB kills and deaths. LOL
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Think about what makes them survive, and why you don't survive, most of the Aces I've met fly smart and live because they tend to stay away from high risk areas or enter high risk areas with plenty of wingmen to cover one another.
What really stinks is when you are flying high, looking for that easy kill, and you run into Ripsnort, who's flying high, looking for that easy kill. :eek: Dang, that was a fun fight! :D
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Rude,
Speaking for the 412th FS we actively hunt 13th TAS'ers. It's good to pit your own skills against a like minded foe. Whenever we see a bish P51 all you can hear over RW is "Alright, another one of those easy 13th TAS kills". ;) We do look out for you guys though. If you see a group of 412th'ers online just ask us into the DA. I'm sure we'll oblige with a bit of squad duelling action.
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A "Runstang Weenie" and proud of it.
(http://home.iprimus.com.au/melandgreg/AH/sig-blue-3.jpg) (http://www.brauncomustangs.org/)
Click on image to go to the 412th home page...[/QB][/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]
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I killed Ripsnort in his F4U at 170 feet about 10 minutes after he killed me. Then Commanche killed me and Sour killed Commanche, Warchild killed Sour and I killed Warchild, but then Commanche killed me again. Then Gium killed Commanche and Bigjim killed Gium, and Yiptoad killed Bigjim and on and on!!
F4Us vs. 109F4s on the deck!!
Remember that Rip???? What a furball! I think it ended because everyone from JG2 and the Rattlers were tired!!! :) Ah, those were the days!!
<S>
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I'm down to about ten hours a month for the last few months, from an average of about 100 (Yegads)... It's gonna pick up once I get a break, and the bustin' of my balls over Big Week winds down <g>, so I look forward to once again slappin' yer gang of Ponies about the sky silly very soon Rude. :D
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I played 25H last month :(
Dam real life!
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I dont know if i can consider myself Veteran, but for sure many of you will have me on their kill list.
This is mainly cause i tend to overthrown the smart parts of experienced flying, by heading into the sector with the biggest red bar and the smallest green one. :) Or the high riks area's were squads like the 13th TAS or 56th Zemke's Wolfpack is hunting. And most times at an alt that is insuficient to face em.
I learn slowly, but most times i see 2-4 high P51, P47 or P38s now, i bug the hell out, cause i know those guys know what the doing. :)
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Going back to tour 17 and then forward... squad vs squad
Tour 17:
kirin squad has 10 kills and has been killed 6 times against the rude squad.
Tour 18:
kirin squad has 3 kills and has been killed 3 times against the rude squad.
Tour 19:
kirin squad has 11 kills and has been killed 5 times against the rude squad.
Tour 20:
kirin squad has 80 kills and has been killed 34 times against the rude squad.
Tour 21:
kirin squad has 40 kills and has been killed 22 times against the rude squad.
Tour 22:
kirin squad has 19 kills and has been killed 18 times against the rude squad.
Our squad sort of habit of overstaying - that is, staying around the fight when we've run out of altitude and speed. Mostly because someone has just reversed to help someone that is lagging behind. That someone needs help in turn.
To me, it seems like we've run into the 13th TAS a number of times - with varying results.
This idea that the Aces are cherry picking - well, the aces in our squad isn't. Damned Glassess and Apar, Kirin and the rest are a bit too brave for my liking. They're very good at getting me in trouble (and out of it :D).
Depends on squad, I'd say. 9./JG 54 "Grünherz" have met the 13TH TAS a number of time the last few tours.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
I'm with ya there, Todd. I usually try to rtb, but have been known to ditch to spare what little action time I had.
Lately thats been me as well. Hell Ive augered over my own field twice this week because I didnt want to take the time to land. Since I dont have the time to fly as often as id like I dont want to waste it RTBing or other boreing stuff like that.
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Like I've stated many times, most of my squads gone due to the unchanging, continual furball ma style of play. The more experienced players are bored with it so most of what your running into are newer, less experienced players. Noticed that myself lately.
CRASH
Originally posted by Rude:
Now, I don't fly as much as most folks do, but still, I don't ever see or fight the better pilots in the sim. Contrary to popular belief, my squad flies in the weeds most all of the time, leaving when we see the odds changing against us. Still, I would think that every once and awhile, I would have a turn with some of the better pilots.
Do you guys just see a gaggle of ponies and run away or what? The only pilots that I can remember fighting or even seeing are Nath, RA, Fester, but thats about it.
Where ya be boys and if I ask while online, will ya buck up and invite us to the dance?
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Originally posted by Apache:
<S> Rip.
Got to defend MrHanky here a little. I can vouch that MrHanky does the low alt front line stuff. I've run into him 3 or 4 times lately. All below 5k. I remember once he was at our field and twice I was at his.
I do see the logic in his response. If I'm in bish territory and I see a group of P51's above me (prob. the 13th), darn right I'm bookin' out, lol.
Hanky said up above:
A9 was being attacked by the Knights (I was Bishop) and I came in from a ways away at about 20k.
My apologies! I must have IMAGINED that he said he came in high! ;)
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Originally posted by YardBird:
What really stinks is when you are flying high, looking for that easy kill, and you run into Ripsnort, who's flying high, looking for that easy kill. :eek: Dang, that was a fun fight! :D
I don't remember that one, did you win or I win?
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Originally posted by Swager:
F4Us vs. 109F4s on the deck!!
Remember that Rip???? What a furball! I think it ended because everyone from JG2 and the Rattlers were tired!!! :) Ah, those were the days!!
<S>
Ah yes, I do remember that! Didn't you guys originally jump us on climb out?
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yep kieran... the irony of this whole thread is not lost on me. I have said in the past that the sky accountants and manly furballers are flying in two different sims. As you say.... is he whining that people with experiance won't stick around to be squeak slapped by cowardly mustangs in an organized group? I would go so far as to say that when the 51's show up the fite is usually about over anyhow. Most with any brains were about to leave before that. seeing a whole gaggle of high 51's just makes it more imperative.
It goes even deeper than that tho... I do just fine against the 13th.. I just don't fight em cause they don't really fight that often. I have no fear of working my way into a co e position with say, one of em. Problem is... it is boring. They are boring to fite because they insist n flying a boring to fite (for most other planes) plane and they fly in a very cautious manner. all of us have seen em run away as the odds begin to even up. Who wants to bother with that kinda fite?
I fight "vets" every day. People of the skill level of leviathn. Both of us usually have a chance to prevail and the fights are short enough to be fun. A lot of the so called "newbiews" are a lot more of a challenge in a fite than the "sky accountant" type "vets" are if and when you actually force em to fite... These "vets" certainly are not worth the trouble it takes to "hunt em down".. Why bother when there are fun things to do and real fighters to combat??
Rude... ya wanna fite a lot of vets and skilled "unknowns"??? Get ur wussy squad into a mixed bag of mediocre planes and hit the furball at a medium alt and stay when things look a little bad. Take a lesson from the likes of the MOL or a number of other "fun" and respected squads..You really got nothing to lose since nobody thinks you guys are all that good anyway.
lazs
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
My apologies! I must have IMAGINED that he said he came in high! ;)
rear fields where folks like Hanky are upping to get that extra altitude,
Apology not necessary as you well know. I keyed on the above. My interpretation, tho apparently in error, was that this was MrHanky's modus operandi. ;)
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My apologies! I must have IMAGINED that he said he came in high!
Ripsnort... I said I came in high, you ASSUMED I came in from a rear field.
I had launched from a diffent forward field that had two Knights attacking it. One of them augered and the other one ran all the way back to his own base, from an F6F that was 2000 feet lower at the start. When it became apparent that the con did not want to engage, I started a climb at 230 and proceded to an adjacent forward base that had two cons at it.. but both died before I got there. I then moved on to the next closest base with enemy at it... A9. Needless to say I had quite a bit of alt by then.
I always launch from forward fields and prefer base defense. I'm rarely over 15k and seldomely over 10k. The "rear fields where folks like Hanky are upping to get that extra altitude" was completely out of line.
StSanta,
I remember being killed by a few people in your squad. Last tour I was 2:7 against them. They stuck with me because I hadn't really been shot down by doras all that much... and you guys reversed the trend. As I result, I noticed most of the times I was killed by your squad. 3 times I was on the runway (stupidly launching from a cap'd base). Two of the times I was locked on to one of your squad mates when another came in and cleared him (much to my demise). The other two times I was trying to egress from a fight, but being an F6F pilot, that is not easy to do when Doras are around. Basically, I cannot remember engaging just one of you in a 1:1 scenario.
I'm not saying that's wrong or anything like that... squad tactics are completely viable and should be commended. They do, however, give you a huge advantage in the MA right now... especially when flying the faster aircraft.
I also looked at your stats versus the 13th in Tour 22. 85% of the kills were P-51vsDora/152. One of the only reasons engagement is likely or possible is because there is not much chance of egress for either plane in a multi-con engagement.
A squad flying P-51s or Doras can dictate who the do and do not engage. Any questions as to why members of these squads are/aren't seeing other "aces" or vets in the arena should be adressed within the squad.
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[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: GinDim ]
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Goodness Lazs!!!
I had no idea you had no respect for us.
Let me clarify a thing or two....
We fight the way want to fight. Whether you or anyone else approves or not is irrelevant.
Secondly, from your redundant posts regarding how HTC should build this product, I have come to the conclusion that you like to play a game, while we like to play a sim.
Thirdly, for you to expect us to fly low and slow with planes whose strengths are their turning ability or to offer ourselves up to higher inbound cons only tells me one thing...you're not to be taken seriously.
If we were a Spit squadron, then we would fly the Spit to her strengths. Instead, we are Mustang pilots and fly the Mustang to her strengths. You, my little confused self consumed friend, need to get over it. We will continue to fly the way we see fit. Ya see oh great one, we enjoy killin folks while not allowing them the pleasure. Dying and then feeling proud of ourselves because we fought someone elses fight is, well, your bag I suppose.
The purpose of this post was singular in its intent....I just don't see the vets as much as I used to and merely asked where they all have been. Didn't think I'de have to listen to insults by the likes of Lazs.
Next time while online I'll hunt ya up Lazs...we can go to the DA. Imagine, if a boring unskilled pilot like myself could whoop such a stud like you, I could maybe fit in and then you would like me.
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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rude.. i like you just fine but you asked a question that had an obvious answer. I do obvious ok.
I actually apreciated your post because it proved a lot of things that i contend are true about the MA.
I certainly feel that you are entitled to fly any way that you like.. I like that the arena is set up so that your flying late war planes in an organized manner doesn't intrude too much in my game. It is easy enough to avoid the the few attempts to gang up on me long enough to leave and find a place where there is a real fight. I don't mind playing dodge ball for a bit with 4 51's taking turns attacking and "extending" so long as I don't have to put up with that boring crap for more than the few minutes it takes to land and find a real fite. I never said anything about "respect" but I certainly am not impressed by someone holding all the cards and then saying they won the hand.
As for hunting me?? sure why not, but I have to laugh when I hear people say that because the ones who say that never find me and.... I have got to be the easiest guy in the world to find. Not to mention... I am at best, mediocre at this. Problem is... you would have to put yourself at risk to actually fite me in the MA. I have no interest in duels. I get killed by newbies and vets alike...everyone except the sky accountants. Like I said.. we are in different sims even tho we are in the same arena at the same time.
I told you how you could have fites with some skilled people. It just won't happen tho if you insist on holding all the cards. I don't know what your hangup is with the 51 but it is your problem if fighting is your goal. Several like minded squads have offered to fite you in like minded ac.. I suppose that you will have to settle for that or for squeak slapping newbies too dumb to know the fite is over when the only planes in the area are high enemy 51's.
Seriously... guys in my squad will coment.. "no fite here, just some high 51's". It's just the way it is.
lazs
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Oh.. and "singular in purpose"?? you said that you don't "see the better pilots" The vets.. I think that if you actually fought some of these unknowns you might gain a little respect for what they do well. Some of them are a lot tougher than some of us flabby ol vets. I don't know... It just seemed like your post came off pretty elitist to me. Now you want to prove that my style of MA fighting takes less skill than yours by... by what? going to the dueling arena?? No, that don't work.. grab a mediocre plane and join in the fun. You might slaughter me or I might slaugter you... either way, it will be fun. It's not so much that I don't have respect for you or your style it's more that I find it boring and sometimes... anoying. the less of it I see on a personal level the more fun my evening.
And Heck... when was the last time you heard me brag about killing someone unless it was to correct them for faulty stats?
lazs
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.squelch lazs
damn doesnt work in here.. :o
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I have noticed that if I hit someone of any talent (a veteran) they will run to a cloud of my friends so that when they die not only am I cheated of the kill, but then they can yell 'gang-bangers' over the radio.
If I kill a newbie, and he's above 5k, he never sees it coming and dies in one pass. If he gets a check six, he dies in three passes, and so do his mates. If he is under 2.5k and alone, he dies at ground level when he augers trying to turn with me.
If, I get in a situation where I find cons above me coming to the fight, I make like a spook and disappear.
If I see lazs I check my cold medicine.
Occasionally, I have climbed to 25k in a Ta-152 to kill a buff. They never respond to my salute.
Occasionally, I have climbed to 20k to kill buffs with my Me-262. Likewise, they never respond to salutes.
Once, I killed tsorde in his P51-D with my Me-262 when I thought he was a buff (deep in our territory and alone). He responded to my salute with "262 in 7,8 sector." No one responded to him, either.
Most of the time I fly less then one sector to find a fight. I climb to about 10k. Since, most kills occur below 2.5k, the only reason to get alt is to avoid the smart guys.
I saw a veteran only once this tour (so far). He put a rocket in the middle of my M3.
I am not a member of the 13th anymore, but I did note one interesting stat. I have seven kills on squadron 'Midnight' and they have two kills on me. That's much better then last tour though, as I went 5:0 with them. Give Pand a medal! ;)
[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Voss ]
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Lazs....
Please...elitest? That must come from a prejudice formed not by us but somehow brought about by the gameplay which you despise or whatever.
If you really knew us personally, you would realize just how far off that remark was. We are truly friends which fly together and share a common goal...not dyin like a turd and trying to be effective as a squad in whatever we do. Were you around the night we grabbed Zekes and 2k of alt? Headed straight into a big furball right next to an enemy field...was fun. I think Toad got 7 and landed them. :)
Still, it's just not our bag dad to roll in weeds...we all like the 51. I've flown it since 1990 along with a few stints in a D9.
Ya know what I think? I think many of you P-51 haters look up into the virtual skies and see ponies and think...13th TAS. Well, if thats what ya do, then ya got the wrong 51 squad. We grab 15k and head to the fight, due to the fact that most of us smoke a smoke...then we fly thru the weeds or wherever the enemy is.
As far as proving anything about your style of fighting, I had no intention in my offer to visit the DA of proving anything. I merely thought that someone with such remarks about accounting or lack of skill might just deserve a dose of the truth. For you to say anyone in the arena lacks skill begs the following...just how does Lazs define skill and once defined, will anyone care?
Look Lazs, I'm about as layed back as they come. I have goals when I fly as my squad does, not because I need yours or anyones approval, but rather if I accomplish those goals, I have some fun :) The goal here is for all of us to have fun, not to piss on each other. If I had thought that I would have spent this amount of time typing on this board today, trust me, I would have just kept my thoughts to myself and perhaps shared them with someone missing the chip on their shoulder.
Cyas in the weeds!
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Rude-
Sorry, seems just saying "where are all the old-timers" would have been clearer than saying in effect "We can't find anyone in the arena worthy to fight".
You mention individual pilots and ask if these individuals will "buck up and invite us to the dance?" Why would anyone do that?
:confused:
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Sigh!
I hate typin and the phone. I usually get my points across ok...guess this time I failed.
My point was this....I do not see any old timers or vets or aces like I used to...don't ever look for them, just seems I used to see more of them than I do now. I saw math twistin and turnin on the deck the other night...first time in 3 months I bet. Just wondered where they were and if they were around, would they be so kind as to invite us to their party. It's not as much fun pickin off guys that just arrived in AH.
Hope this makes it all clear.
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I don't remember that one, did you win or I win?
Actually, it was pretty much a draw. I got your engine smoking and watched you dive away, incorrectly assuming you were going down. I kept on flying when your tracers ripped up my #2 engine (which woke me up, didn't expect you to come back at me). We kept playing chaser and chasee, finally your engine quit and you made it back to base. My engine let go about the same time, and I RTB'd on one engine. It was fun.
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times change dude.
won't be long til some of this newbs will emerge as threats.
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Yes, clearer, thanks. S!
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*yawn*
What? You guys wanna rumble?? Lemme get my teeth... oh; damn; where's my cane.. ahh thanks sonny. Now; if you'll be so kind as to gimme a hand up here into the cockpit...
Oh; damn, I forgot; bee right back, gotta take a leak. can't hold it like I used too..
(back) Awright; where's the damn kid with that handy step-ladder... ah; thanks again sonny. Say; you wouldn't have any denture creme on yah would yah... no; son; thats brylcream; not quite the same thaing..
Ok, lemee see... oh toejam; where's my damn glasses... oh; gee, thanks kid.
(hang taxies out, looks for runway; overshoots, takes off on taxiway thru hanger..)
Ok; where all the bad guys at?
How come every damn time I get up here there ain't anybody around?? Chit; gotta pee already...
And so it goes.... ;)
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Where have all the aces gone? dunno, depends on how you define it. There has been a huge influx of newbies recently from other brand sims, so if there were any, they're still here but your chance of meeting them has been significantly reduced.
Im a P51 dweeb and proud of it, i love the mustang. This whole 'my way of fighting is better than yours because XYZ' is seriously over-simplifiying the issue. Fact is people will always do things you dont like/understand/prefer, so get over it.
As for good fights, i love to find a 412th or a LJK or an Assasin pilot - win or loose its still a bucket load of fun and adrenaline - works for me :)
<S>
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One of the best indicators of skill, definitions of good, etc. for any WW2 player vs. player flight sim:
When the guy who has none of the advantages in a 1 on 1 fight can win consistently anyways.
There are multiple guys out there who can be on the deck vs. 2 good opponents (i.e. 2 on 1) and have a fair chance of killing both enemies and living to tell about it. Those guys are really good.
They have good SA.
They have great gunnery skills (you only get 1 or 2 shots in a 2 on 1 vs. good opponents).
They have good evasive maneuver skills. Most people don't know what this means. This means making the bad guys miss while burning a minimum of energy on the part of the evader.
lazs is very very correct in at least one sense. Guys who spend their entire life 'flying smart' and going for a huge k/d will be at a disadvantage when fighting vs. someone who 'alternates styles'.
One of the mantras of JG 14 in WBs...
"The main arena is where you practice trying to live in impossible situations."
In other words, it pays to jump in low to help a buddy sometimes...even though you are making a 6 on 1 a 6 on 2.
The only way to get better at bad odds, bad E state matchup fighting is to do it.
I gurantee you one thing - drex did not get how he is today in online flight sims by only engaging when he had an E advantage over the majority of the enemy aircraft in the area.
But don't take this wrong - there is some merit to trying to live as well. You can't get good at having really paranoid SA until you really care about landing as many sorties as possible.
lazs' yank and bank develops one type of SA very well...much better than 'smart' flying. 'Smart' flying develops a different type of SA.
Just because one crowd has some valid points doesn't mean the other crowd doesn't have any.
Also, a significant number of guys coming from other sims find you average 'hot stick' in AH not too hard to kill one on one. Some guys, who have played only AH, have never fought an enemy with as high an average experience level as say WB 1.11...when the same 100 guys were flying every night.
Don't assume I mean you when I'm talking of an average 'hot stick'. If you assume I mean you then get some self confidence.
But, like in any other sim...many of those high k/d are the product of guys hunting for the last 5 minutes of a field capture. When you catch a 'hot stick' one on one you know after a few seconds how he gets that high k/d...if he has one to start.
The bottom line - k/d and kill streaks are one indicator of many if someone is really an all around 'hot stick'. There are many other indicators, but the bottom line is co-E, similar aircraft, fight to the death, who wins? That's the best way to find out. All other posing and talking means dick.
I've had my disagreements with lazs in the past, but the bottom line is he can maneuver the ugly blue thing and he can make snapshots. Like him or not he's got more practice fighting 1 on 3 15' above the waves than many who blithely dismiss him. I think alot of the 'dismissers' don't want to fight him 1 on 1 in F4Us.
Anyways, you are all both kind of right. But k/d in a MA is only of limited value as proof to others. If you set out to get a 200 kill streak in the MA to prove to yourself you can do it, then you have my sincere congratulations. But don't forget the other indicators of skill.
At least that's my opinion. And I know drex was never in the top 10 of WB kill streaks. Usually because he got bored. Now have a $500 pool for who can get the highest kill streak...in an arena with a side cap of 50 players per side (so no 2 sides vs. 1 gangbang easy kill nights), and average in kills/time...you'd see some previously unseen 'hot sticks' come out of the woodwork. 8)
Mike/wulf14
wulfie of JG 14 in WB
Ancient Fw 190 Psycho
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Rude: no comments on the stats?
Seems our two squads have tangled a few times :).
I must say though: when you're flying along, doing your thing, say at 10k, having just killed and enemy and you look up to see 4 P51's hi in formation - it makes you think.
Mostly in this way:
"Where are some friendlies? I need someone to take their mind off me, so I can bug."
"No friendlies around? Ok, I'll drag them low, in case any show up. Even if they don't, these P-51's will be low and out of the fight for a bit. I might even fool them in the canyon down there".
"Ah, friendly ack. No way I'm fighting four of them".
I know you chaps (quite wisely) initiate the fight with an advantage. We generally head to 18-20k and go in. It's just normal. But, I remember several occasions when a schwarm of Grünherzjägers have met the 13TH TAS, usually with a bit of a alt disadvantage. Both the 13th TAS and the Grünherzjägers have then fought it out, til either the odds are too bad and one part exits, if it can, or dies trying to.
Runners are annoying, I agree completely with that. But, speaking for our squad only, I must say that if we're a kette or a schwarm, we don't bug, even if the enemy has an altitude advantage. If we have some altitude to play with.
We'll have more such fights. And you and your pee-51's shall burn.
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I think I can count with my hand fingers the times I've logged in last month...AH is walking towards a gameplay style I dont like too much and I've been a bit bored of it lately.
I log in now and then but not in a very regular way.
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Hi Santa!
It's hard to engage for a sustained time in the MA due to all of the traffic...get a good fight going and here comes someones friends :)
I think I'll post a film of a typical Rude sortie so some of the experts here can critique it...I would be very curious as to what folks have to say about it. When at work, I cannot post a film, but I will this weekend.
Perhaps Lazs could post one of his typical sorties as well as some others...might be fun to wallow in that thread for a bit :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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I think I can count with my hand fingers the times I've logged in last month...AH is walking towards a gameplay style I dont like too much and I've been a bit bored of it lately.
I log in now and then but not in a very regular way.
Uh Oh! another I Quit! is on the way :D
Regards
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I'll take all of you on. Meet me in the SEA arena tonight. Before its all over it'll be only me in my G10 left in the arena.
I'll be practicing...
.eject XXX
Yeah baby, I still got game.
;)
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Santa, which TAS you guys been killing? I see you got some though.
Tour 22: kirin squad has 0 kills and has been killed 2 times against toad
Tour 21: kirin squad has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time against toad.
Tour 20: kirin squad has 5 kills and has been killed 4 times against toad
Tour 19: kirin squad has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times against toad
Tour 18: kirin squad has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times against toad
Tour 17: kirin squad has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time against toad
Tour 16: kirin squad has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time against toad.
Looks like Bad Guys 6, Toad 9 ;)
Always fun engaging you guys. You wing well together. One must be "on his game" to live.
.
.
.
.
PS: Don't you think posting stats is about the dumbest thing ever? Doesn't really prove a dang thing, does it?
:D
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wow voss that old scorpion wound must be actin up eh? I have checked... I have never been killed by you or you me. We fly in different sims. I am not some newbie that can't avoid 3 of your silly B&Z's in a row and I am not interested in working my way up to a co E situation with you so that (in your own words) can run away.
wolfie has given a pretty good description of skill. you can fly "smart" all you want but having skill will still come in handy someday. several guys in my squad with a lot more talent than me consider getting 2 planes on their 6 to be an attack strategy. Getting on their six is probly the first step toward death for 99% of us. They fly mediocre planes into any situation imaginable from high alt energy to in the weeds 1 v 3. Their main goal is to get the other plane to commit. Even I find that "luring" a high alt sky accountant down is pretty risk free. Most guys that come in with a lot of alt simply take longer to get into the fight but end up about the same as they would have if they would have just come in at the furs medium alt. Alt advantage is overrated in a crowd. If you add organization, squad numbers and untouchable planes tho to the alt equation then you have an untenable situation for the planes below. You are holding all the cards and you are not worth playing with.
rude... didn't know you were so touchy. I said that I got no problem with the way you fly or with what you fly but.... And this is a big but... I don't wanna play. a lot of people don't wanna play that game. flying in an organized manner in superior and relatively risk free planes is fun for you and friends apparently but... You have to realize that most don't enjoy being on the other end of such a lopsided equation. For me tho... it is mostly unfun and a waste of time.
Like I said... There are (at least) two distinct styles of fighting in the arena. I feel it is fortunate that they don't affect each other much. I do not wish to be forced to fly "smart" with a huge drop in action. OTOH,If you wish to "get in on the action" then I would suggest that you get into mediocre planes and go where the action is. If you do not put yourself at risk then you are really incapable of judgeing furball skill levels. Heck... you don't even get to observe some of the best dogfiting around. you will end up a bitter lone wolf wussy like voss... searching for risk free kills and wondering why nobody cares.
lazs
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Lazs you realize there are fights above 10k right? very high speed, face paced fights. High alt fights are 10 times more difficult, and 10 times more gratifiying than low alt conflicts.
Since i have not once seen you even above 5k your opinion on high alt fighting is like blowing smoke up a dead horses ass, just like 99% of your post.. pointless.
You always like to point out how mediocre the f4u is, which is also roadkill . It rolls 10 times faster than any other AC you will find fighting on the deck, easy out card if you ask me.
if you guys are pissy with Lazs and you want to kill him just look for the most out numbered fight for you vrs us Rooks, find the hog with 3 wingman and its Lazs.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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amon, first of all... you don't know squat about me and probly about the same amount about the game. I've been doing this far longer than the time frame that you have been "watching" me...
You are below me most of the time and my "wingie" and I have saved your stupid butt several times at the least. You have no SA that I can see. furballs are way to tough for your skill level right now. If we hadn't saved you your pitiful K/D would be even worse.
Now.. I never said that there weren't fites above 10K... as a matter of fact it was the guys that fly up there that are complaining that there are no fites up there... they don't see anyone.
Looking at your flying I would say your ability to "watch" anything is in serious doubt.. you can't watch cons much less me. You don't even know what is happening around you much less what I am doing... Perhaps with your limited SA you SHOULD fly way up high where your SA won't be so strained?
lazs
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go rook and kill the DHBG, no wait the assassins do that already ;)
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And amon.. the hog is mediocre but... if you believe it is such a good furballer then Iwould suggest you fly one for a tour and buck the stats of the plane. Grab a 1A and I will fly with you all tour if you like. go where I go and show me how easy it is to furball in that plane. I kinda like it but I sure could use some tips from a "vet" like yourself.
I admit to being mediocre.. I believe the Hog is a mediocre MA plane. a simple look at my stats and what types of planes I kill will show what kind of fights I engage in. 50% of my kills are planes that are below me and 50% are planes that attack me from an alt advantage. I spend much of my time below 250mph, a good deal slower than 200.
I have talked with people about how I fly, people who have flown with me for years, people who's opinion was relevant. you are not relavant.
lazs
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Originally posted by Rude:
Now, I don't fly as much as most folks do, but still, I don't ever see or fight the better pilots in the sim. Contrary to popular belief, my squad flies in the weeds most all of the time, leaving when we see the odds changing against us. Still, I would think that every once and awhile, I would have a turn with some of the better pilots.
Do you guys just see a gaggle of ponies and run away or what? The only pilots that I can remember fighting or even seeing are Nath, RA, Fester, but thats about it.
Where ya be boys and if I ask while online, will ya buck up and invite us to the dance?
:)
QB]
Bah hahahaha...bunch of chicken arses!
Yeah, if we see a gaggle of high ponies we go the other way. Unless we are also high, in which case the ponies usually go the other way.
[qb]Contrary to popular belief, my squad flies in the weeds most all of the time, leaving when we see the odds changing against us.
How do you expect to fight us(not that I am one of the "Better Pilots") if you run away all the time? My guess is that you just can't win if you don't have either an altitude or numbers advantage.
I hardly ever go into areas where my country is dominant. I'm a defender by nature and I still kick ass. Something I am SURE you and the TAS CAN NOT do!
"Better pilots" Hmmph!
:cool:
Viper
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Totally agree, I'll purposely take my mustang with 75% fuel and go find an angles fighter to tangle with on the deck. If he's any good I usually get dusted but it keeps my angles abilities up, and sometimes it's a real blast.
CRASH
Originally posted by wulf14:
One of the best indicators of skill, definitions of good, etc. for any WW2 player vs. player flight sim:
When the guy who has none of the advantages in a 1 on 1 fight can win consistently anyways.
There are multiple guys out there who can be on the deck vs. 2 good opponents (i.e. 2 on 1) and have a fair chance of killing both enemies and living to tell about it. Those guys are really good.
They have good SA.
They have great gunnery skills (you only get 1 or 2 shots in a 2 on 1 vs. good opponents).
They have good evasive maneuver skills. Most people don't know what this means. This means making the bad guys miss while burning a minimum of energy on the part of the evader.
lazs is very very correct in at least one sense. Guys who spend their entire life 'flying smart' and going for a huge k/d will be at a disadvantage when fighting vs. someone who 'alternates styles'.
One of the mantras of JG 14 in WBs...
"The main arena is where you practice trying to live in impossible situations."
In other words, it pays to jump in low to help a buddy sometimes...even though you are making a 6 on 1 a 6 on 2.
The only way to get better at bad odds, bad E state matchup fighting is to do it.
I gurantee you one thing - drex did not get how he is today in online flight sims by only engaging when he had an E advantage over the majority of the enemy aircraft in the area.
But don't take this wrong - there is some merit to trying to live as well. You can't get good at having really paranoid SA until you really care about landing as many sorties as possible.
lazs' yank and bank develops one type of SA very well...much better than 'smart' flying. 'Smart' flying develops a different type of SA.
Just because one crowd has some valid points doesn't mean the other crowd doesn't have any.
Also, a significant number of guys coming from other sims find you average 'hot stick' in AH not too hard to kill one on one. Some guys, who have played only AH, have never fought an enemy with as high an average experience level as say WB 1.11...when the same 100 guys were flying every night.
Don't assume I mean you when I'm talking of an average 'hot stick'. If you assume I mean you then get some self confidence.
But, like in any other sim...many of those high k/d are the product of guys hunting for the last 5 minutes of a field capture. When you catch a 'hot stick' one on one you know after a few seconds how he gets that high k/d...if he has one to start.
The bottom line - k/d and kill streaks are one indicator of many if someone is really an all around 'hot stick'. There are many other indicators, but the bottom line is co-E, similar aircraft, fight to the death, who wins? That's the best way to find out. All other posing and talking means dick.
I've had my disagreements with lazs in the past, but the bottom line is he can maneuver the ugly blue thing and he can make snapshots. Like him or not he's got more practice fighting 1 on 3 15' above the waves than many who blithely dismiss him. I think alot of the 'dismissers' don't want to fight him 1 on 1 in F4Us.
Anyways, you are all both kind of right. But k/d in a MA is only of limited value as proof to others. If you set out to get a 200 kill streak in the MA to prove to yourself you can do it, then you have my sincere congratulations. But don't forget the other indicators of skill.
At least that's my opinion. And I know drex was never in the top 10 of WB kill streaks. Usually because he got bored. Now have a $500 pool for who can get the highest kill streak...in an arena with a side cap of 50 players per side (so no 2 sides vs. 1 gangbang easy kill nights), and average in kills/time...you'd see some previously unseen 'hot sticks' come out of the woodwork. 8)
Mike/wulf14
wulfie of JG 14 in WB
Ancient Fw 190 Psycho
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So lazs tell me this, my opinion means nothing to you but it envoked enough emoition in you to reply to my post 2 times? sounds like you are trying to convince your self, not me.
As far as my SA goes, i dont see a problem with it. I dont only fly when theres 10-15 friendlies around, like your self. as a matter of fact thats the only time i see you is when i am a part of that hoard of planes. Normaly you can find me flying a lone some where, which can be bad new a lot of the time. But i dont find any pleasure in helping 9 friendlies kill 1 enemy.
I never said you werent a good pilot, or i was better but you do not impress me none the less. You talk trash to everyone and when they ask you to go to the DA you start singing a different song.
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]