Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Capt. Pork on February 17, 2004, 11:44:51 PM
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I like a lot of what he says. Some of you might not. For those that don't, consult the second and third-to last sentances of the quoted passage...
This is what Andy Rooney said on "60 Minutes" in November of last year:
"I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big
campfires. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies.
Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.
I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?
I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.
I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund,
Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America.
Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.
I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are
different, weird, or tick me off. When 70% of the people who get
arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.
I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!
My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the
countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.
I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines.
I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.
We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.
I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy who invented the Internet to help you.
"I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please
don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me french fries!
I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be"African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe.
I am proud to be from America and nowhere else. And if you don't like my point of view, tough. DON'T PASS IT ON!!"
While life may not be the party we hoped for, while we're here we might as well dance.
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I highly doubt Andy Rooney was the author of that little redneck manifesto.
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/rooney.asp
welcome to 2003
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It all sounds good to me.
And no, I am not a redneck.
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Originally posted by Pfunk
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/rooney.asp
welcome to 2003
Hey at least here are a few protozoans on this board who think that this crap is cool.
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<-------Proud to be a bilingual Russian Jewish immigrant redneck.
Apparently so's my dad, who e-mailed me the quote in the parent post, albeit perhaps the first redneck who speaks perfect English with a Russian accent.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
<-------Proud to be a bilingual Russian Jewish immigrant redneck.
Apparently so's my dad, who e-mailed me the quote in the parent post, albeit perhaps the first redneck who speaks perfect English with a Russian accent.
Well, from one bilingual Russian Jewish immigrant redneck to another: nice post :D
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just curious... what things do you liberals feel are unfair or wrong about the "manifesto"?
It is pretty general but the basics are simply common sense and a reaffermation of human rights.
lazs
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Oh, its all pretty much a statement that most people at heart agree with, but a few hand wringing libs won't admit to it.
It's not PC, but hey, everyone has a right to an opinion.
dago
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Originally posted by lazs2
just curious... what things do you liberals feel are unfair or wrong about the "manifesto"?
It is pretty general but the basics are simply common sense and a reaffermation of human rights.
lazs
The fish are slow today, maybe some more bait next time.... :rolleyes:
(http://www.duhteam.com/images/bpjig.jpg)
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Lasz, I'll bite.
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy who invented the Internet to help you.
Is very simplistic as it avoids the anti-trust issue entirely.
Ravs
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Linux, Unix, MacOS, OS2, etc
What anti-trust?
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Well, for example, abuse of a dominant position in the market. Wasn't that what the whole 'internet explorer /windows bundling litigation was about'?
This Rooney guy makes a very broad statement which is acceptable regarless of circumstances. I am saying that circumstances may exist which may not make that statement acceptable anymore.
Ravs
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I agree with every statement and Im about as far from a redneck as you can get.
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Maybe, but I never bought that crap and still don't. Let me ask you this. If IE and NS were both free, which one would you be using?
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Originally posted by Duedel
Hey at least here are a few protozoans on this board who think that this crap is cool.
Like your opinion matters to most Americans....too funny
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Originally posted by ravells
Lasz, I'll bite.
Is very simplistic as it avoids the anti-trust issue entirely.
Ravs
Whiner and a Socialists....you like to share huh?
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Sure Rude,
I'm generous that way!
Ravs
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Lizking said
Maybe, but I never bought that crap and still don't. Let me ask you this. If IE and NS were both free, which one would you be using?
I honestly don't know. The one which came with the computer operating system I suppose. So I guess that would be IE.
Ravs
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While I agree for the most part on the ideas put forth in the article, IT IS NOT ANDY ROONEY, it was falsely acredited to him.
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IT IS NOT ANDY ROONEY, it was falsely acredited to him.
Yeah, we all got that a while ago, welcome to last week.
The discussion has moved to the nature of the opinions stated, not who did or didn't say it.
Catch a bus and try to keep up. :rofl
dago
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Why did you buy windows?
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Because it comes free with Dell Computers and because I'm used to using it.
Is this line of questioning leading anywhere, Lizking? Might be faster to skip to the point.
Ravs
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The point is that Mr Gates made his fortune through voluntary mutually beneficial economic transactions and our government has no right to extort money from him. :)
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Let's take it from the top, Funked.
The words attributed to Rooney said:
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy who invented the Internet to help you.
I made the point that this was a generalisation and would only hold true provided that BG, kept within anti-trust laws (amongst other parameters).
Of course Mr Gates made his fortune through voluntary mutually beneficial economic transactions and your government has no right to extort money from him. But what has this to do with Anti-Trust laws?
Ravs
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ravells: Well, for example, abuse of a dominant position in the market. Wasn't that what the whole 'internet explorer /windows bundling litigation was about'?
Rav, you have a dominant position on the market being married to your lovely wife with such a wonderfull name. Unless you are totally perfect, she tolerates some imperfections and even impositions on your part in exchange for the benefits you bring her. You come as a bundle and she is free to take you as a whole - or not. If she wants some of you, she has to tolerate all of you.
Any government mandate that would forcefully separate some of your services from others that might be conceivaly provided better by some other man would be a clear imposition and violation on both of your rights of free contract.
:)
miko
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guess i don't need to answer the socialist on that question.....
next?
lazs
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You go out and buy an italian car (in america).
Do you expect to find that every part made works in this car? No.
Does this Violate anti-trust laws? No.
So why should it for microsoft?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I agree with every statement and Im about as far from a redneck as you can get.
this is not firs qnswer like this.
I feel that word redneck should get new meaning
:D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
The point is that Mr Gates made his fortune through voluntary mutually beneficial economic transactions and our government has no right to extort money from him. :)
actulay why does have most of american chairmans money abroad ?
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Originally posted by Rude
Like your opinion matters to most Americans....too funny
U surely mean US citizens and not americans, however after all i pissed u off and thats what i like, redneck.
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Originally posted by Duedel
U surely mean US citizens and not americans, however after all i pissed u off and thats what i like, redneck.
I simply do not know how I will sleep tonight.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I simply do not know how I will sleep tonight.
Oh I'm sorry. Didnt want to scare u.
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lol Duedel :lol :lol
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Lol Miko!
Good analogy! (Although I think she would probably say that she was the dominant party AND perfect!)
Anti-trust laws are there to keep the spirit of competition alive.
Now, in the microsoft case, I don't know if, they did or did not break those laws, but getting back to the original question, I was simply pointing out that the statement attributed to Mr Rooney in this matter appears reasonable at first glance, but because it is such a generalisation, doesn't stand up to closer inspection. It's a common device sophist device.
Lasersailor, I don't follow your analogy.
I think that Netscape's argument was (cut and pasted):
"How can anyone expect to survive the onslaught of the Microsoft machine? All they have to do is bundle something with their OS for a few years and all competition dies. You can't compete with something that is free AND comes with something else you need anyway. Especially when they need to work together?"
The point about monopolies, or near monopolies are that they are bad for competition, which is why you have the Sherman Act in the US. The difficulty is in recognising when that point has been reached - hence the need to take the matter to court.
I found this interesting snippet:
The U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee passed a bill that allows the U.S. government to bring antitrust lawsuits against OPEC. Sen. Mike DeWine (R-Ohio) said, U.S. consumers suffer from "unreasonably high and erratic pricing" and the U.S. must go after the source of the problem. Presently, antitrust laws exclude OPEC. But, if the "No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels Act" (NOPEC) becomes law, it will enable the U.S government to take antitrust action against foreign states engaging in anti-competitive conduct with regard to oil and other petroleum products. The bill also gives U.S. federal district courts jurisdiction over such cases.
Seems like Anti-trust law is well and thriving in the States!
Ravs
Lasz: Anti-trust legislation is not 'socialist' it attempts to preserve a balance in the free market.
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Originally posted by Duedel
U surely mean US citizens and not americans, however after all i pissed u off and thats what i like, redneck.
Pissed off is far from it....tired yes.....remember, as long as you live, you'll still just be a whiney socialist wishing he had the wherewithall to affect change in our country.
Kinda pitiful.
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duedal.... I believe that while you don't "frieghten" us.... we do have a right to be at least a little cautious around germans.
lazs
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ravells: Good analogy! (Although I think she would probably say that she was the dominant party AND perfect!)
And you better believe it for you own good. :)
Anti-trust laws are there to keep the spirit of competition alive.
That's the most productive scam that the socialists and other opressors have invented yet - expanding their power and taxing people in order to keep the Laws of Nature operating.
Starting with priests who demanded tribute in order to keep the Sun raising or rain falling.
There is no need to keep the spirit of competition alive - especially by preventing the free competition and violating property rights (which is what any government intervention invariably does). Competition keeps itself alive because it is based on the basic properties of the human mind and always thrives in the abcense of violent coersion.
Any kind of a monopoly is never complete and short-lived, being inherently unstable, so practically any monopoly you care to name used the government's restriction on competition to exist.
...the statement attributed to Mr Rooney in this matter appears reasonable at first glance, but because it is such a generalisation, doesn't stand up to closer inspection.
I believe it does. Any wealth earned in voluntary exchange is legitimate, because in order to get it one has to provide equal or better value to the customer. There is no such thing as an overpriced good where voluntary exchange happens.
I think that Netscape's argument was (cut and pasted):
"How can anyone expect to survive the onslaught of the Microsoft machine? All they have to do is bundle something with their OS for a few years and all competition dies. You can't compete with something that is free AND comes with something else you need anyway. Especially when they need to work together?"
They want to sell us stuff that the Microsoft wanted to give us for free. What an outrage. So what if the competition dies - which never happens, by the way? The moment they start charging for the software, the competition would arise again.
The point about monopolies, or near monopolies are that they are bad for competition,
They are the natural and temporary outcome of competition and subect to it.
which is why you have the Sherman Act in the US. The difficulty is in recognising when that point has been reached - hence the need to take the matter to court.
Seems like Anti-trust law is well and thriving in the States!
It does - as well as plenty of monopoly-promoting laws and the rest of socialist structure. Doesn't mean it is legitimate.
It uses non-competitive monopolistic power to interfere with tthe people's property rights and freedom of contract based on nothing more than arbitrary opinions.
miko
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Originally posted by Duedel
U surely mean US citizens and not americans, however after all i pissed u off and thats what i like, redneck.
C'mon, man, why are you trying to piss people off? It's not like this thread was entitled:
'George S. Patton's Recipe for a Good German'
At least then your implicit anger would be justified.
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cut&paste...
Theft of name for vicious e-mail more hurtful
than loss of suitcase or $20
By Andy Rooney
Syndicated columnist
Two years ago, someone broke my car window, took some things from the glove compart_ment and a suitcase I had left on the backseat.
Twenty years ago, I had a motorbike stolen from my garage. In the Army, at Fort Bragg, someone went through my footlocker and took $20 I had saved for the day I could get a 24-hour pass. These were the only brushes w crime Id had in my life until recently.
Now, several thieves have taken something of great value from me - my name.
More than a year ago, people started sending me copies of an e-mail that was appearing on computers all over the country. It was a list of about 20 comments, each one or two sentences long, under my byline. The piece was titled, “In Praise of Older Women - By Andy Rooney” It was sappy and obviously nothing I might have written, but harmless. While I didn’t like the idea of someone using my name as his own, I didn’t try to do anything about it.
Several months after I first saw the e-mail, a man named Frank Kaiser wrote asking why I had put my name on something he had written in 2000 for his syndicated column called Suddenly Senior I called Frank immediately and he accepted the fact that someone else had taken what he wrote and put my name on it.
There have been two other instances of someone distributing a list of opinions under my name. What would make someone write down a-series of personal observations and distribute them using my name as the author? It mystifies me.
About a year ago, I became aware of a more serious theft of my name and it is so hurtful to my reputation that it calls for legal action against the thief. Hundreds of people have written asking if I really wrote the 20 detestable remarks made under my name that have had such wide circulation on the Internet.
The list of remarks begins: “I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big campfires."
It continues: “I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting babies.”
“Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer."
“I have the right NOT to be tolerant of others because they are weird, different or tick me off.”
Some of the remarks, which I will not repeat here, are viciously racist and the spirit of the whole thing is nasty, mean and totally inconsistent with my philosophy of life. It is apparent that the list of comments has been read by
hundreds of thousands of Americans, many of whom must believe that it accurately represents opinions of mine that I don’t dare express in my column or on television. It is seriously damaging to my reputation.
The only good thing to come out of this incident is the dozens of letters I’ve received from people saying they know me well enough to know I didn’t write the comments. There must be many more, however, who are ready to believe I did write them.
I have tracked the e-mail back to an address in Tucson and a Web site called “CelebrityHypocrites.com,” which is owned by a man named Pave Mason. Mr. Mason lists as his address, “405 East Wetmore Road, No. 117 PMB 520, Tucson Arizona 85705.”
I was in Tucson recently and foolishly went to that address thinking it might be Mason's home or business. I’d like to know more about Mason, but the address was a commercial mailbox business and I didn’t wait around for him to show up so I could confront him. If it is Dave Mason who has stolen my name, I demand that he put out a retraction that reaches as many people as his fraudulent e-mail did.
Andy Rooney is a syndicated columnist and commentator on “60 Minutes.”
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Miko, why do you think that monopolies have never stood the test of time?
It's not so much because the monopoly failed, but because people got so angry about them that they passed anti-trust legislation, simply because for a free market economy to survive there has to be some balancing factors in order to KEEP it a free market economy.
Even if you are right (that all monopolies are destined to fail) how many life-times does one have to wait for them to fail? How many people have to see their businesses ruined because regardless of whether they've built a better mouse-trap, someone with a lot more money comes along and gives away a free mouse-trap until you're out of business?
This has nothing to do with socialism, it has everything to do with keeping a free market a free market.
Ravs
btw...even Hayek thinks that!
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It's been established that he didn't say it. Check some of the previous posts. I agree, the real author deserves credit for it. As for Rooney, he can defend himself all he likes. His endorsement, or lack thereof, doesn't take away from the inherent value, however bluntly stated, of the quote.
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Virage,
I am very glad you posted that, because it debunks far more eloquently the sophistry of these commandments attributed to Rooney.
Take a look at this one:
"I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big
campfires. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies.
The statement puts into the less acute reader's mind that all taxes are spent on 'crack addicts for squirting out babies'. What about programmes for building roads? Collecting garbage? Helping the less fortunate to get one foot on the rung so that they can become productive citizens?
the 'bad comb-over' comment' raises a stereotype which is intended to give credibility to the next part of the sentence.
The less acute reader is left thinking: YES! all my tax money is spent on crack heads....that must be wrong!
Or take this one:
I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!
If any immigrant in America wants to survive and prosper, I'm sure they would know that learning how to speak English is important, unless they want to live in a community of their own original nationality. I take Miko's view here: If you don't like the fact that the guy who is selling you a milk shake doesn't speak English, then go somewhere where somebody does. So many of America's original immigrants didn't speak a word of English. Doesn't seem to have done their decendants any harm.
Or this one:
I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are
different, weird, or tick me off. When 70% of the people who get
arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.
Well, yes you have the right not to be tolerant of others (within the law) if you like...nobody is arguing with that. But look at how the words 'different and weird' suddenly get linked up with being black.
I could go on, but I hope you see the pattern emerging.
It's very clever argument, but if you have the brain to scratch the surface of it, you can see what it is leading up to.
Ravs
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ravells: Miko, why do you think that monopolies have never stood the test of time?
Natural market process.
It's not so much because the monopoly failed, but because people got so angry about them that they passed anti-trust legislation, simply because for a free market economy to survive there has to be some balancing factors in order to KEEP it a free market economy.
Not really. Self-interest in the abcense of the government restrictions would ensure that much more reliably than arbitrary government intervention.
Even if you are right (that all monopolies are destined to fail) how many life-times does one have to wait for them to fail?
Few years at best.
How many people have to see their businesses ruined because regardless of whether they've built a better mouse-trap, someone with a lot more money comes along and gives away a free mouse-trap until you're out of business?
We should outlaw marriages. They drive prostitutes, laudries and restaurants out of business by giving the stuff for free. :)
This has nothing to do with socialism, it has everything to do with keeping a free market a free market.
By preventing a customer from freely accepting free stuff? What happened to the right to dispose of one's property?
btw...even Hayek thinks that!
The reasons that monopolies are unviable are not as intuitive as those for free trade but they are valid nevertheless.
There are plenty of monopolies enforced by the governments but the naturally-occuring monopoly that would abuse its market power to the detriment of customers (which are the main concern-not competitors) have never been more than a hypothetical construct.
miko
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Sophomoric crap...
"I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big
campfires. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies. Stupid strawman argument. I guess you don't want to pay for roads or munitions or unemployment benefits...??
Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game. ROFL... and who wants to "ban guns"? NO ONE of any significance.
I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE? Wondering what the Boy Scouts have to do with Augusta National?... Oh yea! NOTHING.
I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion. and an uninformed one.
I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund,
Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Too funny. No discrimination left in the world right?... doh!
Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door. poor downtrodden white men... when will you get your fair share of the pie?
I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are
different, weird, or tick me off. When 70% of the people who get
arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability. unfortunately, the percentages don't change when the population does. And profiling exists and has been proven to exist. One prime example was the main interstate in Florida... almost all "possible drug" stops were of Black people in "nice" cars. BS!
I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English! I agree
My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the
countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours. I wonder who theis "you" is that he's talking to?
I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines. Duh. Threaten a cop... no brainer, much like the rest of this tripe.
I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business. There are no special loan programs for immigrants.
We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations. Do we have immigrants serving on the Supreme Court?
I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude. amen... hey! What about this article?
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy who invented the Internet to help you. Once again....Gore was instrumental in passing legislation that funded the Arpanet and helped develop what is today the internet... sorry to burst your "gore invented everything" joke bubble.
"I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please
don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me french fries! No worries... it's probably herpes anyway..... enjoy your fries.
I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be"African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. Maybe thats because you know which Country your ancestors came from...They forgot to keep records for those lucky slaves who got to emmigrate.
I am proud to be from America and nowhere else. And if you don't like my point of view, tough. DON'T PASS IT ON!!" Okee Dokee
While life may not be the party we hoped for, while we're here we might as well dance. I'm guessing yours won't be a break dance.
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Miko, my friend,
We are destined to agree to disagree. But know this: not all of the forces which regulate human behaviour can be reduced to an economic theory.
Damn...why do I sound like 'Bones' talking to 'Spock' about this subject?
Ravs
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guess i don't need to answer the socialist on that question.....
next?
lazs
Well?
Ravs
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Ravells --> If you go into business, you want to provide something that only **YOU** will provide. It's good business.
Take italian cars. Something breaks on it. You take it to a mechanic.
What are the chances that the mechanic has the exact part you need? What are the chances that the part you need is even in this country?
No one's getting their panties in a twist over this. Plus it goes on everywhere.
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laser... the delict is not supplying something that only you provide (that's good business). The delict is squashing someone who happens to provide something better by running them out of business because you have the muscle to give away for free what they are providing with something they already need.
Ravs
oh ... and people are getting their panties in a twist about it: In case you missed it, here's what I posted earlier:
The U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee passed a bill that allows the U.S. government to bring antitrust lawsuits against OPEC. Sen. Mike DeWine (R-Ohio) said, U.S. consumers suffer from "unreasonably high and erratic pricing" and the U.S. must go after the source of the problem. Presently, antitrust laws exclude OPEC. But, if the "No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels Act" (NOPEC) becomes law, it will enable the U.S government to take antitrust action against foreign states engaging in anti-competitive conduct with regard to oil and other petroleum products. The bill also gives U.S. federal district courts jurisdiction over such cases.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Dago
The discussion has moved to the nature of the opinions stated, not who did or didn't say it.
I think the discussion should remain about idiots posting falsely attributed conservo-spam.
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Originally posted by Rude
.....remember, as long as you live, you'll still just be a whiney socialist wishing he had the wherewithall to affect change in our country.
Kinda pitiful.
Yep, better as to be a pissed off redneck. Ups sorry your just just tired. Did i scared u too?
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rav.. I believe miko answered you well enough..
As for the rest... While I would agree that the government should form and keep an army for our protection....It would seem that most of you believe that only the government can build a road and that all the welfare and burocracy of the rest of the government is because well..... we need roads to drive on and.... only burocrats can build roads.
As for MT on race relations... he is of the "get even" "paybacks are a *****" school of thought... no prejudice or injustice against the white devils is too great because.... well... it is payback and once the whites are punished enough... everyone will get along... he sees no reason on earth that whites would resent special treatment given to a single race over all others.
Racist groups everywhere feel that MT has the right idea. I am sure nazis and AB groups would love for more resentment to continue until there is a meaningful backlash. The next riot will involve gunfire... And... white folks are better shots than black folks.
fast food? emergency food. you take your chances.
lazs
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ravells:
Miko, my friend,
We are destined to agree to disagree. But know this: not all of the forces which regulate human behaviour can be reduced to an economic theory.
:)
Most disagreements can be cleared by strict definition of terms. That is one of them.
The so called "economic theory" is just a subset of a more general theory of the operation of the human mined that is called praxeology.
The economics is a part praxeology that deals specifically with market exchange. Often economics is used as a synonym for praxeology but it is not appropriate in all cases. To strictly differentiate the meanings, the term catallactics was introduced to refer to the theory of exchange and not praxeology in general.
Economics is based on praxeology and operates based on the previously derived theoremes of praxeology.
All the forces that regulate human behaviour can be and are reduced to praxeological theory. In fact there is only one force that regulates human behavior and very few basic axioms describing it - the rest is derived through deductive (not indictive) reasoning.
Once you are done with Hayek, I can advise you a primer book on the above if you are interested or even the full treatise (also available on line for free).
miko
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Originally posted by lazs2
As for MT on race relations... he is of the "get even" "paybacks are a *****" school of thought... no prejudice or injustice against the white devils is too great because.... well... it is payback and once the whites are punished enough... everyone will get along... he sees no reason on earth that whites would resent special treatment given to a single race over all others.
Racist groups everywhere feel that MT has the right idea. I am sure nazis and AB groups would love for more resentment to continue until there is a meaningful backlash. The next riot will involve gunfire... And... white folks are better shots than black folks.
fast food? emergency food. you take your chances.
lazs
Funny... not true, but funny.
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which part do you not agree with?
lazs
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As for MT on race relations... he is of the "get even" "paybacks are a *****" school of thought... no prejudice or injustice against the white devils is too great because.... well... it is payback and once the whites are punished enough... everyone will get along... he sees no reason on earth that whites would resent special treatment given to a single race over all others.
That part.
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Hi Lasz,
You said:
just curious... what things do you liberals feel are unfair or wrong about the "manifesto"?
It is pretty general but the basics are simply common sense and a reaffermation of human rights.
lazs
You can read my response to this in post No: 518 on this thread. Miko and I were discussing the issue of monopolies which arose out of one small aspect of one of the points to the manifesto. Miko, in fact did not deal with my post on the subject generally, as we were then immersed in the monopoly issue.
I think you once said that I made things 'too complicated' or words to that effect. This manifesto points out all the dangers of looking at matters too simplisticly. And if MT is correct about immigrants getting 'handouts', at least one of the points made is factually incorrect.
Far from being 'common sense' and an 'affirmation of human rights' much of the manifesto is badly argued dogma.
Ravs
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so you feel that all form of discrimination is wrong no matter if it is against whites or blacks?
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
That part.
I'm reluctant to join a gangbang, but reading all your previous posts implies that Lazs' observation is right on the money. Maybe a bit too strongly worded, but correct.
You do think that AA is not only justified but that it is necessary.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
I think the discussion should remain about idiots posting falsely attributed conservo-spam.
Pretty thought provoking stuff there, MZ.
So tell me, which character do you play on the show?
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MT... I think that most here are familiar with yur "afirmative action" view on race relations.
ravels.. I think the monopoly issue was covered. As for the rest... you need to be specific. What dogma are you talking about exactly? As for "badly argued"... I seen no arguement in the "manifesto" at all...
If you would be so kind as to tell me what area you dissagree with... perhaps one at a time as I am pretty slow and can't take in too many things at once?
lazs
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Equating AA to "punishment" of the white man is just silly. Overstating is too kind of an observation.
If the guy next to you needs $100 and you only need $50... and I give the guy next to you $50... you are even. I haven't punished you. If you both get what you need... you are even and you still haven't been punished. If you both get the same amount the other guy is still behind.... and you STILL haven't been punished.
Why don't we instead take a reasoned look at why some folks might be in a hole, then help them out.
And lazs.. I covered a lot more than just race relations above.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Why don't we instead take a reasoned look at why some folks might be in a hole, then help them out.
Very nice little hypothetical situation you set up, and some do deserve this help, however, the fact is, many don't want to do a whole lot about getting out of their situation. There are too many like that in this 'hole', and the hole is becoming too deep(over 400 billion in 2001). Why should I toss large percentages of my money into that hole when I could be spending that money on my family? What happened to my desire and freedom to accumulate material wealth that I've worked for? What happened to the survival instinct of this poor schlub that's so hopelessly stuck in the 'hole'.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If the guy next to you needs $100 and you only need $50... and I give the guy next to you $50... you are even. I haven't punished you.
you see, you've forgotten to mention that in your scenario, you, the giver (the government) have no money of your own.
This is how it really works. You (the great equalizer), take the wallet from my pocket, take out $50 and give it to the other dude, so we can be "even".
Did you punish me, hell yes, how can't you see that?
You've given something which belonged to me (money, job, scholarship, whatever), and gave it to someone else on a premise that the other guy's great-grandfather was wronged.
You violate my rights today, to correct the gewneralized, hypothetical, heredital wrongs 400 years ago.
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Lasz - have you read my earlier post? No: 518 on this thread.
Ravs
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I understand that many people support AA. Some because it benefits them, some because they feel a collective guilt or whatever other reason.
But claiming that AA does not hurt anyone, and that it works its magic without a cost is simply intellectually dishonest.
If you resign from your job in order to make an opening for some someone you think is oppressed, I'll salute you.
If you ask me to do the same, I'll refuse, and I'll ask you to respect my decision.
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Originally posted by mietla
You violate my rights today, to correct the gewneralized, hypothetical, heredital wrongs 400 years ago.
400 years ago? My people were almost wiped from the Earth just 60 years ago--where's my $50?
Oh yeah, I forgot, the Palistinians want it back.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Pretty thought provoking stuff there, MZ.
So tell me, which character do you play on the show?
MZ is actually Morely Safer.
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I knew I should have paid more attention.
Strange. I lived in LA county for 6 years, moving just last year, and never once picked up on the universal signifinance of our Southern Cousin.
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so MT... you believe in communism? To each according to his needs? Such bull... If someone needs something and you take it away from me...I am being cheated.. you act like I did nothing to earn what I have and that the person who has little is simply unfortunate... How do you seperate the lazy and criminal from the unfortunate? Even if you could (and you can't)Why should I help anyone unless it is my choice?
morally... why should I not help friends and family before I help unnamed strangers with money extorted from me under threat of vilolence or prison?
lazs
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Are you saying that ther is no evidence that groups of people have been systematically barred from the same opportunities as other groups of people? Dig your head out of the sand man.
and BTW, would you suggest one of those Makarov's as a good first weapon?
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no... I am not saying that prejudice never existed or that it will ever be wiped out... I am saying the the best way to make it continue in its worst forms is to take from one group and give their earnings to another based on skin color. or... to do anything based on skin color. The people that have blended in the best are those who made the least of this.
makarov... probly not. we talking handguns right? The mak is simple and safe and reliable (it's friggin russian man!) but... it's small and uses about the most powerful round ever used in a blowback pistol... it will recoil... a lot... it's a friggin military and police gun. It won't be "safe" if you remove the clip and forget to rack the round out of the chamber. It has no loaded chamber indicator... is it loaded or not? is the sfety on or off? hold on bad guy while i figure all this out. No problem for me since all my semiautos are loaded with one in the chamber and the hammer down and I don't use safeties.
first handguns? get a revolver. In 357. you can shoot 38's out of it and .357's 38's son't recoil much and don't cost much. flip open the cyl and you know if it's loaded or not. years, many handguns latter... the old .357 will still be worth having. Just my opinion but pretty much the concensus of most gun owners. You can hit something in the dark at 6' or take it out and plink at cans 100 yards away.
lazs
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midnight Target: Equating AA to "punishment" of the white man is just silly. Overstating is too kind of an observation.
If the guy next to you needs $100 and you only need $50... and I give the guy next to you $50... you are even. I haven't punished you. If you both get what you need...
Your example is not punishment - but it is not an example of an Affirmative Action either. Your action is an action of voluntary charity by a private individual while AA is an action of coercion by the state, based on regulation and taxes.
If you take my $50 and give it to the guy next to me, that would be punishment.
If you threaten violence to an potential employer in order to make him hire the guy next to me despite my superior qualification, that woudl be punishment.
Are you saying that ther is no evidence that groups of people have been systematically barred from the same opportunities as other groups of people?
Do your refer to the legal racist oppression of blacks like slavery and segregation laws or do you refer to personal refusal of some racist whites to do bisiness with blacks?
The first is unjust. The second is just a freedom of association.
The first is gone - there are no laws that restrict any races or groups.
If you think the second type of racism is a big deal, then you must necessarily believe in the inherent inferiority of the black people. Do you?
miko
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eeeeewww.... yur right of course but... glad you said it instead of me.
lazs
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Interesting point, Miko...but let me ask you this:
Do you think that government aid (e.g. sending groups to help earthquake, flood victims etc) from the west to poorer countries is theft of money from taxpayers?
Should all aid to the less fortunate be carried out on an individual basis only?
Ravs
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If you think the second type of racism is a big deal, then you must necessarily believe in the inherent inferiority of the black people. Do you?
Now there's a logical jump that beats Evel Kneivel over Snake River.
The vestiges of institutional racism persist through many sources. Some are as nebulous as the inability to live in a certain part of town simply because real estate agents won't show you the house. (I know this happens don't bother refuting it)
Or it could come in the form of a glass ceiling that interferes with a persons ability to rise to his potential. There are other forms this 'restriction" might take, but you don't care about that .... you are too busy looking up some kind of bogus statistic from the "Bell Curve" that will prove how inferior Black people are to you.
Post your wall of words anytime Miko.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
MZ is actually Morely Safer.
Bush won't like you then.....
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:9JwN-6HiE1UJ:www.jameslove.com/funstuff_39.htm+morley+safer+born&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8