Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Pongo on February 18, 2004, 05:00:48 PM
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Stuff happens but this seems like realy interesting tactics that have interesting implicaitons for the state of the occupation.
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Three Iraqi civilians, including a 10-year-old girl, have been killed by a stray US mortar round which hit the backyard of a home near the main American military base in Baghdad.
US troops fire mortar rounds across the Tigris River from their base several times a day.
US commanders describe the firings as part of a harassment-and-interdiction operation, which is designed to prevent insurgents from setting up firing positions in meadows across the river to attack the base.
A spokesman says it is not known how or why the latest mortar round went astray.
The other two victims have been identified as young adults, one male and one female.
"
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Link?
Sounds like a strange way to discourage attacks. Wouldn't it make more sense to plant a couple of snipers with night-vision googles?
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Unbelievable.
I told this to my friend who spent two years in Afghanistan... He said they never had such a nice idea to fire several mortar rounds somewhere aroubd the neighbourhood in Kabul or Bagram just to scare some imaginary bandits.
If it is a joke - it's too mean.
If not - then what can we expect next time?... :rolleyes:
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Source it please.
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1047356.htm
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Hope its not true. Wouldnt surprize me it it was......
Boroda, hows Putin doing these days? I read an article this morning talking about how Putin was trying to re-posture the russian military back to its leading role as a nuclear equalizer against the united states (sounds good to me). During this military excercise that Putin was observing aboard a sub, another sub was launching missles when two of the missles had to be destroyed due to a technical faliure supposedly involving satelites. You guys in country hear anything similar?
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You guys never heard of H&I fire?
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Sounds very implausible and unmilitary. Random firing into a civilian zone? Why not just machine gun streets ahead of convoys or tie hostages to the front of Humvees? Hardly normal practice with the US military. There should be a link or a source. If not it sounds like a propaganda piece designed to discredit the the US.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Unbelievable.
I told this to my friend who spent two years in Afghanistan... He said they never had such a nice idea to fire several mortar rounds somewhere aroubd the neighbourhood in Kabul or Bagram just to scare some imaginary bandits.
If it is a joke - it's too mean.
If not - then what can we expect next time?... :rolleyes:
Ya you Russians really know how to treat folks good.
cut and paste, link below
Chechnya has been intermittently at war with Russia for centuries, with the most recent conflicts taking place from 1994 to 1996 and 1999 to the present. It is now a nation of warlords and anarchy. In the last nine years, between 180,000 and 250,000 Chechens have been killed and 350,000 have been displaced, out of a population of just 1.1 million. That means that roughly half of the population has been killed or displaced by fighting. Compare that to Kosovo, where 0.6 percent of Kosovars were killed, and you get a sense of the nightmarish brutality of the conflict.
With that conflict has come a human rights disaster of historic proportions. Amnesty International reports, “Men, women, and children have also been tortured, including raped, in detention in ‘filtration camps.’ Over a thousand simply ‘disappeared’ in custody. The dead bodies of some people who have ‘disappeared’ after being detained by Russian forces are later sold to the relatives by the military or are found in mass graves.” According to the International Helsinki Foundation for Human Rights, “The numbers of disappeared Chechens in recent months indicate a continuing assault against the Chechen people that borders on genocide.”
http://www.affbrainwash.com/archives/007703.php
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H & I does not really apply to the situation of that base in Iraq. That is a war crime if true.
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Originally posted by ra
Link?
Sounds like a strange way to discourage attacks. Wouldn't it make more sense to plant a couple of snipers with night-vision googles?
I think they where trying to discourage them from firing motars at us(us troop).
If that be the case Snipers against a hidden motoar launcher prolly would not do much good.
Then you have to take into account range wind Is It uphill downhill?
Trust me though I think they screwd the pooch on this one.
A very bad choice they made just chunking motars into a neihborhood like that:(
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Originally posted by Boroda
Unbelievable.
I told this to my friend who spent two years in Afghanistan... He said they never had such a nice idea to fire several mortar rounds somewhere aroubd the neighbourhood in Kabul or Bagram just to scare some imaginary bandits.
If it is a joke - it's too mean.
If not - then what can we expect next time?... :rolleyes:
Why don't you take a trip to Grozny to see how Russian army handles such problems?
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I think it is more interesting as an insight into the situation they are in then any silly criminal alligations. Its war. Since when is it illegal to target civilians in war? Why they are there is a debate for polititians, not the troops on the ground.
They used Canadian snipers to take down mortar pits in afganistan, but even if you planned on shootting 2.5k again that is only half the range of an 81mm so its not much of a tactic.
The tactics are facinating to me, to surrender the area(on the other side of the river) to anything but random harrasment fire..increadable, once again because it gives alot of insight into the situation they are in. Obviosly you would foot patrol out there and take control of the area, if you were willing to risk the associated casualties. But to so obviosly surrender the initiative in that area...increadable.
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I see what you mean now. I'm guessing they either have some manpower restrictions or they are just hunkering down and waiting for it to end.
Reminds me of the story in Band of Brothers, when the US patrol (squad plus LMG team) contacted a German company's flank, in the night, and the Germans just ignored it after the initial contact. Cpt Winters called up the rest of the platoon and at dawn they slaughtered the German company and routed two others. All because the German company commander was too lazy or incompetent to deny the American patrol the good firing position.
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Originally posted by mrblack
I think they where trying to discourage them from firing motars at us(us troop).
If that be the case Snipers against a hidden motoar launcher prolly would not do much good.
Then you have to take into account range wind Is It uphill downhill?
Trust me though I think they screwd the pooch on this one.
A very bad choice they made just chunking motars into a neihborhood like that:(
If there is a field that the US army thinks may be used to stage a mortar attack, they should monitor the field, either with snipers or with sensors. Then, if anyone enters the field to set up a mortar, the snipers can take them out or call in a mortar strike. Shelling the field at random sounds not only dumb but ineffective. So I won't believe this story unless some other sources confirm it.
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Oh I agree with you RA But check out the link above.
ABC news reported it so it must be true:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Pongo
Since when is it illegal to target civilians in war?
Us policy military policy Is to never target civilians unless they pose a threat.
They used Canadian snipers to take down mortar pits in afganistan.
They sure did and they where world record shots too!
And the canadian army would not let the Us Army award them medals(but thats another story).
I don't know how far across the Tigris river the taget would have been but save to assume it was beyond the capability of the army M-24 or marine M40-A2.
Might pull It off with the M82-a1 ?
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Why would U.S. snipers need to be across the Tigris river?
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Originally posted by ra
If there is a field that the US army thinks may be used to stage a mortar attack, they should monitor the field, either with snipers or with sensors. Then, if anyone enters the field to set up a mortar, the snipers can take them out or call in a mortar strike. Shelling the field at random sounds not only dumb but ineffective. So I won't believe this story unless some other sources confirm it.
Confirmed (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=2813&click_id=2813&art_id=qw1077094621349B262&set_id=6)
Confirmed (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/71564/1/.html)
Confirmed (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8727320%255E1702,00.html)
Or do you need a link from GOP headquarters to believe we screwed up?
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Originally posted by rpm371
Confirmed (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=2813&click_id=2813&art_id=qw1077094621349B262&set_id=6)
Confirmed (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/71564/1/.html)
Confirmed (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8727320%255E1702,00.html)
Or do you need a link from GOP headquarters to believe we screwed up?
I didn't question that we had killed civilians, we kill civilians just about every day over there. What is hard to believe is that we randomly lob shells at a field in order to discourage attacks on our base.
What does the GOP have to do with this? Did Karl Rove order our troops to shell this field at random intervals?
ra
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Originally posted by Yeager
Boroda, hows Putin doing these days? I read an article this morning talking about how Putin was trying to re-posture the russian military back to its leading role as a nuclear equalizer against the united states (sounds good to me). During this military excercise that Putin was observing aboard a sub, another sub was launching missles when two of the missles had to be destroyed due to a technical faliure supposedly involving satelites. You guys in country hear anything similar?
Putin Watches As Missile Launch Fails (http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/goto/?getPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewashingtonpost%2Ecom%2Fac2%2Fwp%2Ddyn%2FA48229%2D2004Feb17%3Flanguage%3Dprinter&return=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edrudgereportarchives%2Ecom%2Fdsp%2Flinks%5Frecap%2Ehtm)
"The failed launch has shown the gap between the real condition of the Russian military and the ambitions and muscle-flexing of the Russian leadership," said Yevgeny Volk, the head of the Heritage Foundation's Moscow office. .
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Originally posted by ra
Why would U.S. snipers need to be across the Tigris river?
Well If they had troops on the other side doing patrols none of this would have been needed in the first place.
But I think they may have a manpower problem now.
Idealy Sniper w/ the M-24 -M40-42 would want to be no further away that say 600 meters ( max effective range of the weapon is slightly over 800 metters)
So to assure a kill and cut done on wind effect 600M would be a max that I would wanna try.
Now what Is In you line of site?
Buildings, telephones wires or light poles :ect.
Then theres the all important part WHO and WHERE Is your enemy?
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funny i don't hear any of you weeping willows say anything about the hundreds of iraq civilians that al-qaeda is killing on purpose.
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M40 range slightly over 800?
Man, I guess I didn't see people take longer shots then 1000 meters with no difficulty.
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Honestly dont care about the Iraqi civis killed by Iraqi insurgents. Let the Iraqis sort that out. But I notice you are not interested in talking about this particular US unit adopting a fire base mentality.
But its a big army and this is one occurance in one place. They should think about a change of command thier unless the CO was told that he couldnt patrol.
Trying to out wait the Iraqi resistance with tactics like that is obviosly like rolling over and puting your paws in the air.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Honestly dont care about the Iraqi civis killed by Iraqi insurgents.
well , i do care.
US troops are not hiding in bunkers, today US troops and IRAQ POLICE captured 7 al-qaeda terrorists. the beat goes on.
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They could, of course, mine the fields in question.
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Originally posted by john9001
well , i do care.
US troops are not hiding in bunkers, today US troops and IRAQ POLICE captured 7 al-qaeda terrorists. the beat goes on.
Ya your probably right, the US army is on a roll in Iraq.
Notice how you promoted those 7 from "suspected links to al-qaeda" to "Al-qaeda terrorsts" your really getting the hang of this! Considering even the link is probably made up or questionable you have filled in the blanks real nice...
You could call them "7 Iraqi freedom fighters" if you like..since the name doenst make any difference.
It is interesting that US casualities in Iraq ave very very low so far this month as the insurgents seem to have switched to more civi attacks. Or maybe the armoured Humvees are helping. Or maybe the US isnt leaving their bases as much. US casualties for Feb are definatly way down though.
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Originally posted by Pongo
It is interesting that US casualities in Iraq ave very very low so far this month as the insurgents seem to have switched to more civi attacks. Or maybe the armoured Humvees are helping. Or maybe the US isnt leaving their bases as much. US casualties for Feb are definatly way down though.
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So far, no more news on that attack. Anyone else able to find anything on it?
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Good fear rip. feed it.
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Dunno Pongo... I think you're reading a bit much into it. I didn't see anything suggesting this was a new tactic. This does highlight the fundamental flaw with any plan that involves so many variables... including the human one... being implimented in close proximity to civilians. I guess the options are to do nothing and wait (not enough troups to cover everywhere) or go isreali on their asses.
MiniD
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Aggreed. Also the scale of the operation dictates that so many different battalion comanders will execute in many different ways.
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H&I is a valid tactic. In a built up area it does have issues. WAR sucks, people die.
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What ever happened to good ole "get on the ground and patrol a bit."
geezz, I must be getting old.
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Ya you Russians really know how to treat folks good.
cut and paste, link below
Chechnya has been intermittently at war with Russia for centuries, with the most recent conflicts taking place from 1994 to 1996 and 1999 to the present. It is now a nation of warlords and anarchy. In the last nine years, between 180,000 and 250,000 Chechens have been killed and 350,000 have been displaced, out of a population of just 1.1 million. That means that roughly half of the population has been killed or displaced by fighting. Compare that to Kosovo, where 0.6 percent of Kosovars were killed, and you get a sense of the nightmarish brutality of the conflict.
Another terrorist supporter here :) You are welcome :)
Don't they tell you that 180-250 thousand were mostly Russians who had to leave Chechnya due to terror, rapes and murders by "freedom fighters"?
Come on, choose your side.
0.6 percent of Kosovars is a number of Serbs killed by terrorists BEFORE the province was turned into a terrorist shelter by NATO forces. Now the number of Serbian casualities is multiplied several times.
Again: a person who served two years behind the river in 85087 said such things were impossible there.
I still hope it is a joke.
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Originally posted by Monk
What ever happened to good ole "get on the ground and patrol a bit."
Apparently patrols in Baghdad have been cut by 2/3s.
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(http://www.lucidus.ca/alleycommandos.jpg)
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looks like decent spacing there pongo, Canadians in afghanistan..what regiment?
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van dous. Gota love trudging through an open sewer.
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Good Spacing, but bullets will hug the walls, safest route is closer to the center of the alley.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
M40 range slightly over 800?
Man, I guess I didn't see people take longer shots then 1000 meters with no difficulty.
The max effective range of the M40A1 in 800meters.
Thats not so say that you cant shoot further than that but it would not be wise to do so.
It Is possible to be accurate at 1.000 meters with that SWS in competition but not under combat conditions.
Indeed you can take shots out to 1.200 meters but It don't mean you will hit anything but dirt LOL.
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Originally posted by Drifter1234
Good Spacing, but bullets will hug the walls, safest route is closer to the center of the alley.
Is that because of shallow ricochets keeping close to the walls?
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I view the situatiuon in Iraq now as equivilent to the ambitious crimintals in any city except these guys have big bombs and powerfull weapons compared to your average criminal. They also have alot more experience then your average criminal at killing and decieving people.
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
I view the situatiuon in Iraq now as equivilent to the ambitious crimintals in any city except these guys have big bombs and powerfull weapons compared to your average criminal. They also have alot more experience then your average criminal at killing and decieving people.
Sad but true:(
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
I view the situatiuon in Iraq now as equivilent to the ambitious crimintals in any city except these guys have big bombs and powerfull weapons compared to your average criminal. They also have alot more experience then your average criminal at killing and decieving people.
Are you talking about the US or the insurgents?
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I meant the insurgents of course. Whatever would cause you to think I meant US forces.
UN time, new Iraqi government time and then they will officially be criminals operating in Iraq.
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Well I dont know. Who is randomly lobbing shells into the coutnry side..
Who has wiped out wedding parties with AC130s
Its war. To its victims the indoctrination of the perpetrators makes little difference.
"UN time, new Iraqi government time and then they will officially be criminals operating in Iraq."
Thats wishful thinking.
Your assuming that what ever form of goverment Paul Bremer doenst veto for the Iraqis is acceptable and credible to them.
Right now he is activly denying them the form of goverment that their majority desires. Cause why go to all this trouble to have an islamic state in Iraq? Yet the majority of the population would desire that. So your left with breaking up the country into its constituants which Turkey will never stand for. Or occupying it till they kick you out.
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Pongo I agree with you on alot of things.
But what I don't agree with Is your constant bashing of my country.
I mean where do you get off coming from canada I mean what has canada givin the world besides a bunch of moose chit?
You don't like the way the U.S Is doing things well i donno what to tell ya go materbate or hold your breath till you pass out if it helps you to sleep.
But until you have a better Idea than MY whole system of government (wich i doubt) please knock off the U.S bashing.
It serves no purpose i mean Like any of us can do anything about it.
Go to the bar and have a beer eh! carefull not to slip in any moose watermelon on the way:aok
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Back in Black!
Well its all true Black so sorry if you think stating the truth is bashing your country.
I think its good for democrocies to see point of views different then thier own. If you can think of some benevolent reason to destroy a wedding with an AC130 then I would love to hear it.
If this is the first place you read that Paul Bremer has stated he will veto any form of goverment in Iraq that is based on Muslim law then sorry as well. Hes not ashamed of it I dont know why you should be or why it should be a secret.
But thanks for the reminder to pull up my socks on supporting uncle sam. lll work on it honest!
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Originally posted by mrblack
I mean where do you get off coming from canada I mean what has canada givin the world besides a bunch of moose chit?
Ask western Europe for one. More Canadians have partipated in UN peacekeeping operations that any other country for two.
How about two out of four US major team pro sports? How about: acrylics (Plexiglas/Perspex/Lucite), batteryless radio (AC radio tube), calcium carbide and acetylene gas (production of), carcino embryonic antigen (CEA) blood test, cardiac intensive care unit (first), compound marine engine, computerized braille, dental mirror, disintegrating plastic, electric cooking range, electric hand prosthesis for children, electrical car (North America's first), electric wheelchair, electron microscope, electronic wave organ, explosives vapour detector, fathometer, film developing tank, five pin bowling, foghorn, frozen fish, garbage bag (green plastic), Gestalt Photo Mapper, gingerale, goalie mask, heart valve operation (first), helicopter trap, helium as a substitute for hydrogen in airships, IMAX, insulin (as diabetes treatment), kerosene, laser (sailboat), lightbulb (first patented), liposomes, machine gun tracer bullet, MacPherson gas mask, newsprint, pablum, pacemaker, paint roller, panoramic camera, Phi (position homing indicator for aircraft), radar profile recorder, radio compass, screw propeller, snowblower, steam foghorn, standard time, Stol aircraft, submarine telegraph cable, Superman, variable Pitch Propeller, Walkie-Talkie, zipper.
And we trained the first members of the US airforce "The Warbirds".
Your ignorance is showing.
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nanaimo bar!
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Right, and the nanaimo bar. :cool:
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Well 5 pin bowling and green garbage bags how could I have missed that:rofl :rofl
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WOW..canada has invented more stuff than the USSR and al gore combined.
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Dude, Gore invented pants. Its about quality, not quantity.