Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on February 19, 2004, 07:35:45 AM
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Picture this scenario. I’m buzzing along in my F4U all alone. In the distance I see a co-alt con on a reciprocal heading, coming right at me. It’s a Spit. Alrighty then. Experience in AH has taught me always to expect the HO. So I dip my nose 10° to gain a little extra speed and to force the bogie into negative G if he really wants his HO attempt. He does, and the spray starts at about 600 yards. Immediately after he has passed by, I look back to see what he’s doing next and at the same time pull vertical to gain an alt advantage, and begin to circle above where I think the bogie will be. The bogie has done a split S and is trying to come up to me. But oh! I’m now much higher than he thought I was, and as he begins to stall I can dive down and bag him. His turning doesn’t help. The roll rate of the F4U means I can egress from that dive in any direction I choose, at a moment’s notice. Scratch one Spit.
The same scenario played out a few minutes later – another F4U this time. Same routine. Attempted HO, split S (though some of them make a flat turn instead), try to come up underneath me, find I’m much higher than they thought, and ruh-roh… stall, boom. The other trick these guys try is to force the HO at all costs. I was on a guy's 6 last night, and he reversed to HO – I didn’t get him on that pass but went vertical. The bogie (an F4F) obligingly came around underneath me only to find I was much higher than he thought, then tried to pull up and over to force a second HO. Nice planform view for me – Boom. And then – get this – he says on Ch1 “no surprise to see an F4U attempt the HO” LOL! Got it on film, but I don’t want to embarrass the guy, so won’t post…
What is it with this crop of noobs? I’m no expert, but try to learn what I can. These guys just seem to be picking up one bad habit after another from fellow noobs. Their routine is always the same: [list=1]- Attempt the HO.
- Split S or flat turn to try to face the con ASAP.
- Point at the con as best they can, spraying from whatever distance they happen to be at.
- Realise they’ve made a pig’s ear of it, and start turning frantically – but oh! All their E is gone. And very soon, so are they!
- Whine on Ch1 that it was an unfair kill, or that the con “attempted an HO”! :lol
Doesn’t anyone help out in the TA any more? I know it can be difficult, what with the time differences. But it seems to me that a large swathe of players just don’t want to learn anything new.
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Nothing new about newbies.
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Originally posted by beet1e
What is it with this crop of noobs? I’m no expert, but try to learn what I can. These guys just seem to be picking up one bad habit after another from fellow noobs. Their routine is always the same: [list=1]- Attempt the HO.
- Split S or flat turn to try to face the con ASAP.
- Point at the con as best they can, spraying from whatever distance they happen to be at.
- Realise they’ve made a pig’s ear of it, and start turning frantically – but oh! All their E is gone. And very soon, so are they!
- Whine on Ch1 that it was an unfair kill, or that the con “attempted an HO”! :lol
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1- Head on's are too risky in my opinion. And never tend to go in my favor. I simply try not to put myself in that situation.
2-In the MA, its seems latley, for the most part I have had to let the con engage me first, force the over shoot while making him burn his E just so I can get a fight in with out allowing him to run away.
3-Spraying just looks too n00bish and I would be emarassed to be caught doing it. Sniping on the other hand at a "track star", that can be done with ease for the most part up to and beyond 1k.
4-Is there a set of guidlines I need to follow to turn my plane?
5-I never associate with Ch1... You all know that:eek:
I see you point/gripe, I think anyways beetle. But new players in the game depending on what side they are on, are taught to hate the other side by those bitter Vets that love nothing more than to pork strat; fuel mostly, to ruin a good fight... Lets be realistic here for a moment, if thats posible in a game, we can't tell others what to do. They pay to play just like you and I, that alone is enough for me not to try and tell others what to go and do with their time...
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cheer up beet1e, before you know it, they'll all be flying high and timid and only engaging with a bunch of buddies or some other advantage. i mean once they realize how great you are they can only but follow your lead. right?
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Since death has no immediate impact, and their initial skill levels are much too limited to understand more profound tactics, the first immediate source of "fun" to a newbie is to start shooting at something - whether they survive through the HO or not.
HO is a viable tactic, but only when the terms are right. In most cases, it's a dangerous and risky business - unless someone is pretty much sure of absolute advantage in forward firepower and plane durability, I wouldn't think a real life pilot in a real life combat situation would ever enjoy a Head-on encounter.
But ofcourse, newbies don't care about that. They wouldn't be newbies if they did care about something like that.
Thus, when you evaded his attack, and denied him the shooting chance, and suckered him into a classic rope, his immediate response is "this is no fun".
Normally, when someone feels his maneuver/tactic resulted in a disaster, and it is obviously not working as expected, he would try something else.
However, when newbies continue to do that stuff, it can only mean that their typical unimpressive first merge, is working in other cases. That's why they keep doing that stuff.
The odds are, average pilots rarely meet superior pilots. Most usually average pilots fight with other average pilots. And in those cases, the gung-ho HO, works for them. They're in the same planes(usually Spits, La-7s, or N1K2), fighting at same altitudes, fighting with same attitude and same low skill level.
And in those sort of fights, usually, the guy who turns and points their guns onto the opponent first, wins. Especially, if their plane has something like .50s or Hispanos mounted, who wouldn't want to try a HO?
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For the fist few weeks or even months player has problem hitting anything. His acm is bad, situational awareness is terrible, and it takes a lot of time to make gunning over 3% barrier. In this situation HO is his best chance, so he try it again and again. People who learn this game a bit know, that HO is 50-50, and their best chance is to avoid and then beat the opponent with better flying. So, what you describe is normal, not new and it will ever stay this way -- HO will be very popular in AH.
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why complain about them? Help them... "show them the way" beetle;)
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
why complain about them? Help them... "show them the way" beetle;)
hence the thread title, "blind leading the blind"
;)
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Originally posted by Shane
hence the thread title, "blind leading the blind"
;)
Doh!
teehee...
Shane ol buddy ol pal... Was going to try and find ya last night but I guess you had logged off... You wanna hit the DA tonight?
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Why not dig up some of your old films from 3 years ago and show us how a skilled newbie plays. Thinking the newbies starting here or somehow inferior to when you fist began AW or AH or whatever, is just narcissistic.
As a newbie, I can tell you it isn't easy starting - in fact its very difficult with no buffer. Its amazing the game even attracts new users as they can look forward to months if not years of frustration. In fact, I don't see the help in this post at all. If our mistakes gives you an easy kill, why not just take it and move one to a more "interesting" fight? Duh, newbies make mistakes that a veteran pilot can quickly exploit - STOP THE PRESSES!
If the goal here is to enlighten us newbies, why not post some articles like the primers Urchin posted in the help section?
This isn't all directed at you - I'm also venting on another p38 driver :) After shooting me down about 5 consecutive times, he felt compelled to announce on channel 1 that I stall a lot. Duh :)
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Beet1e thats the exact same trick I use to use exept it works extreamly well with at Fw 190A-5
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Hmmm, i'll have to try that one.
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Originally posted by Fariz
and it takes a lot of time to make gunning over 3% barrier.
Maybe if you've never flown a flight sim. Mine started out at about 5% the very first tour although I hadn't played a flightsim in years (and never on-line at that). Although I suck bad after my two months leave, I can still shoot, especially after mastering that damn 30mm on the G-10.
But what's the point beetle? Easy kills are easy kills. If those noobs persist they will learn, or they will leave and other noobs will take their place. I'm in for 1.5 years, still learning... slowly.
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What I miss on Ch1 is friendly tips...............
Such as..............
"try pulling out the merge a bit sooner / later"
"try to use throttle to prevent over shoot"
"try to anticipate your exit angle when going vertical"
We know when we make mistakes........... we can see (some times) when our opponents make them.
If those we know cockup we can all have a good laugh at their expence................. for others a few hints would not go amiss.
It takes but a few seconds........... if its not graciously recieved then so be it.
Frankly I find moaning about the quality of "sport" here a bit weak. Particularly if success of that sport is based upon feeding off the ignorance of others in the first place. One might almost think it a form of masked bragging.
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3% is the first month kill ratio
at least it was mine when I started :p
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Originally posted by Tilt
What I miss on Ch1 is friendly tips...............
it's real hard when th etext buffer moves so fast and many people, especially noobs may not even know they can squelch 6 (system landed messages).
this is why i try and drag people to the DA.
:)
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Tweety,
Sorry if I hurt your feelings. The point of the thread was to observe that some folks aren't learning (maybe don't want to learn) and that maybe the training facilities aren't sufficient for their needs.
What we've seen in the past year is the formation of the noob-steamroller squads. Capture territory by sheer numbers. Pork & Auger. The way the game works is partly to blame. It does not reward stealth attempts to capture bases - it does the opposite, what with all the different warning systems that a base is under attack - siren, flashing map, "base under attack" etc... So the noobs go the numerical supremacy smashdown route. Those guys can be difficult to kill because usually they have killed themselves before you get the chance!
I met up with a few flightsim guys for a drink some months ago. We were all talking about where we had gone since the WB meltdown began. One guy had tried the AH TA, but there was no training. All that happened was that he was shot down repeatedly by a guy (whose handle most of you would recognise) who was getting his jollies. No training at all.
The other point is that some guys don't want to learn. I remember trying to help a guy after he had handed me his own head on a plate, and he basically told me to piss off. :( The attitude amongst many seems to be "why bother to learn, when a new plane is just a mouseclick away..."
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Originally posted by Shane
it's real hard when th etext buffer moves so fast and many people, especially noobs may not even know they can squelch 6 (system landed messages).
this is why i try and drag people to the DA.
:)
Ya i have to agree with Shane, when ever i give out some help im always wondering will they catch my message in time, do they know how to use the ~ ..
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Especially, if their plane has something like .50s or Hispanos mounted, who wouldn't want to try a HO?
Or BOTH :p
Apparently seeing a P-38's nose pointed at them was pretty good incentive for LW pilots to change direction.
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>>Sorry if I hurt your feelings. The point of the thread was to observe that some folks aren't learning (maybe don't want to learn) and that maybe the training facilities aren't sufficient for their needs. <<
I was mostly venting, thats why I added the post was directed entirely at you. For the most part, the veterans do provide a lot of help for us (and believe me, its appreciated). I shouldn't have posted that. It was after a long, long night if you know what I mean :)
I detest the pork and auger thing also. It just reeks of poor sportsmanship.
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SO Beetle next time you get hoed, are you going to take the guy toi the TA and help him or just hit the BBs and cry.:D
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Speaking of training noobs, last night as the Rooks were seriously taking over a big chunk of Bish real-estate I was flying in the same area as XBRIT and he was showing a noob the ropes. Over country channel and vox I could see/hear all the questions presented to XBRIT which he answered without hesitation, sarcasm or wtf’s. I applaud XBRIT for his patients and understanding. Hopefully this was one new guy pulled out of the newbie sludge, the sludge that has continued to mess up the MA.
:aok
-SLICER
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I'd have to agree with alot of folks in here about training. It'd be nice to see more folks give newer folks pointers. I'm trying to learn the G10 right now and don't know many who fly it. Well on the Bish side that is.
I've learned some from the book I'm reading but since it's text book engagements there it doesn't always apply. In two equally matched planes you very rarely see them turn nose to nose as would be expected. And you rarely see a nose to tail turn in the merge against a disimiliar fighter.
I've seen some groups use pinching maneuvers but it's rare. Though they are more difficult to handle than an unorganized flight it's more challenging. I also don't think I've seen even once a Thach Weave maneuver used. More often than not you'll see the same maneuvers or some type of crazy maneuver.
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Has anyone ever made use of the "mowing machine" tactics perfected Eugene Valencia? I've never run across it in the main arena.
Curious,
Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Has anyone ever made use of the "mowing machine" tactics perfected Eugene Valencia? I've never run across it in the main arena.
Curious,
Shuckins/Leggern
Explain the move.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the learning curve the way it is. People who get into the game seem to start picking up the ropes in a month or so. It's a complex game with lots of choices, so that doesn't seem too unreasonable.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Explain the move.
It was rather tactics than move. The name "Mowing Machine" was derived from the alternating attacks by the two planes of the four plane division, which traded roles as attacker and top cover, producing action resembling that of the blades of a lawn mower. Basically the two planes make BnZ attack while the other two provide top cover. When this pair zooms up the other comes down, keeping continuous pressure on their targets.
This tactics requires seamless teamwork, communication and dicipline which is why it is rarely seen in MA. Done right, it would be as effective in MA as in RL.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I'd have to agree with alot of folks in here about training. It'd be nice to see more folks give newer folks pointers. I'm trying to learn the G10 right now and don't know many who fly it. Well on the Bish side that is.
I've learned some from the book I'm reading but since it's text book engagements there it doesn't always apply. In two equally matched planes you very rarely see them turn nose to nose as would be expected. And you rarely see a nose to tail turn in the merge against a disimiliar fighter.
I've seen some groups use pinching maneuvers but it's rare. Though they are more difficult to handle than an unorganized flight it's more challenging. I also don't think I've seen even once a Thach Weave maneuver used. More often than not you'll see the same maneuvers or some type of crazy maneuver.
I'm flying the G10 a lot these days - though you need an unporked field so you can up with full fuel and d/t - am on most weekends flying for Rooks - wing up if you want.
ps the trick is to continually ride the throttle so you stay in the 400mph band, still have sontrol and very little can catch you.
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Tim so it's basically "Double Attack Doctrine" but using a full flight of 4 instead of just two? Atleast thats what it sounds like.
_Schadenfreude_ I'd love the help but I dont' ever leave the Bish side. That fine line of 400 kinda bites in that plane. I can trim out of deep dives majority of the time. But it can get there in a hurry if I don't pay attention. I'm having more problems with the nose mounted weapons on the other planes more than anything.
I'm still working on perfecting the merge too. Against a faster con I typically start away from them at less than 2 k out. THen I'll turn back in at around 1k or less. If they keep turning in behind me and are too fast. I'll barrell roll back into them and underneath to gain E. Then if I've timed it right I should be able to get a shot off. If they don't turn behind me and extend or go vertical I'll do a shallow climb out and turn back in for a second merge. Problem is I don't always follow that. I have a tendency to go to the vertical if they do right off. And most of the time they out zoom me. Sometimes I'll do a shallow spiral climb back to them hoping to catch them coming out of there loop. Hard to time it right though.
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Generally, I never fire HO unless the same 1v1 bandit has done it to me on a previous pass. I also make a point to say on channel 1 "Was that worth it? It gave me angles to get behind you." or "If you're going to only fire HO, at least be good at it."
Its really a sore subject... the only foreplay I like is the angles or BnZ fight, to have some guy try and cheapen it with a HO irks me.
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Originally posted by TimRas
It was rather tactics than move. The name "Mowing Machine" was derived from the alternating attacks by the two planes of the four plane division, which traded roles as attacker and top cover, producing action resembling that of the blades of a lawn mower. Basically the two planes make BnZ attack while the other two provide top cover. When this pair zooms up the other comes down, keeping continuous pressure on their targets.
This tactics requires seamless teamwork, communication and dicipline which is why it is rarely seen in MA. Done right, it would be as effective in MA as in RL.
Ahh.. Thanks for the explanation Tim, ive done that before with a squad a WHILE ago.. Think there was 6 of us tho, 3 went down and once we made the pass we would climb up and let the other 3 engage while we kept high cover.