Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hogenbor on February 20, 2004, 03:17:02 AM
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Scenario one :
I'm in a P-38 (in which I am not very familiar), about 18k or so. After a nice furball everything went quiet for a while so I decided to grab alt. Two cons incoming so I head towards them. I'm closing but see that they are much higher then me so I reverse and try to get seperation. The cons follow me agressively and soon a Fw-190D is within firing range with a P-51 not far behind. I accelerate with zero G and WEP but compress badly. Before I can dump speed or retrim to at least get some control back the 190D kills me, not hard, I was going straight with no options to maneuver. But what could I have done if I still would have had control? Any ideas?
Scenario two :
Capping a field, enemy ups more than we have in the area so the odds are slowly getting worse. After a B&Z pass in my P-51B a Typh, La-7 and a Spit start chasing me. The Typh and the Spit fall behind, so does the La-7 but only marginally (I had a slight E-advantage to start with). When the La-7 start to close due to it's higher top speed I pull as hard a turn as I can, when speed drops give one notch of flaps and try to outturn the La-7. However, speed drops to much, I have to ease my turn and the La-7 gets me. I was under the impression that a P-51B can outturn a La-7, but this does seem to be the case. No alternatives here, but I would like to know if a La-7 can outturn a P-51B, sustained.
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Scenario 2
From an La7 perspective the 51 I am most cautious about engaging is the B............. this may be due to the fact that better pilots will tend to use to it to farm perks.
Given this the La may have pulled a lucky snap shot whilst you were under his nose.
Until you are able to equalise e between your self and bogie then sustained figures count for little.......... the La7 will not have pulled the same G as you did in your break turn............ if you then flapped and pulled harder....even a quite aggresive hi yo yo from the la7 would have given him both angle and e over you.
Flapped and slow your 51 is more stable than the La7 but your challenge is to bring the fight down to that level......(safely)......... and of course avoid all his freinds that arrive after a few minutes of manouvering.
Easier said than done but a flap switching rolling siccors is your best bet to utilise the sustained turn rate and stability of the 51B to achieve this IMO.
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hogenbor you forgetting that the la7 has a Maximum Instantanous Turn rate so does the P51, the thing that may of happend was that he used more of is instantaneous turn rate to turn within your turning circle. Only problem is that even if you have a better maximum sustained turn rate than the la7 he may have a better one than you at lower speeds. And Pretty simple if you have a MSTR ( maxium sustained turn rate ) of 20 dps, at 200mph and the la7 has one a MSTR of 15 dps at 200mph, but he has a MSTR of 25 at 150mph then hes going to trade more speed to turn within your turn radios.
Its complex when you start reading the figures, that i dont actualy have right on me now to show you. But i would recommend you try to get ahold of EMD ( Energy Management Diagrams). They really help you out in understanding what you can and cannot do in aircraft.
F6Bomber.
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It was a pure tail chase at top speed at the deck (about 3k at the location it took place). The La-7 did not get a lucky shot in, speeds were already dropping to sustained turn speeds (E-state was the same when starting the turnfight). Initially I pulled as hard a turn as I could and kept my plane at near blackout until speed dropped too much. Then I dropped a notch of flaps and tried to ride the stall. Then I noticed that I gave away too much speed and simply couldn't turn harder to avoid the La-7 gaining on me.
My question is mostly if I would have had a chance if I haven't bled too much speed with flaps. I know how twitchy the La-7 can be under these circumstances and was hoping for the other pilot to snaproll into the ground or to break the turn. But it seemed to me that the P-51B was too sluggish when the speed was gone to have a chance.
Would like this in the TA with someone... so see who can get the edge best. P-51B is my favourite plane, and more confidence when facing a La-7 under the circumstance mentioned would be nice.
I could have tried to break contact with a scissors type of maneuver, especially when he would have had to black out to follow me but he still would be able to chase me down. And I think an La-7 can roll as least as well as a P-51.
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Just a thought...
Had I been the La7, I would have chopped the throttle, stomped the rudder (to create drag) and yoyoed. Were both your turns flat? I generally don't have problems with La7s that try to flat turn, however, when they start going vertial they eat my lunch :).
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Use rudder to change the direction of your turn. Chances are, you'll be under the LA-7's nose and he won't see you sliding off to the side. Force him to waste his glowing softball ammo.
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Originally posted by hogenbor
I could have tried to break contact with a scissors type of maneuver, especially when he would have had to black out to follow me but he still would be able to chase me down. And I think an La-7 can roll as least as well as a P-51.
A pure (reversing)scissor manouver could have been used to drag down the La to a slow co e state. But as you say the La could roll with it......(and he will have many snap shot opportunities)....... a rolling scissors requires use of sustained turn rate with rudder and can benefit from flap during part of the cycle............ if the La7 is to follow then he can choose lag or lead pursuit or indeed allow over shoot............
If the La chooses lead then he is blind to your manouverings and loosing e faster than you..............plus his inherent instability requires constant corrective inputs
If the La chooses lag then he does not have a guns resolution and your sustained turn advantage will begin to pay off....... once slow you could enter a flat turn but frankly your rolling scissors are far more potent............ you will end up on his tail while he is fighting with his ac to maintain the manouver....
Frankly as an La7 pilot I avoid the rolling scissor.......... and just go vertical (basically over shoot out of plain) and choose angles.
Having said that when I have been shot down in sort of 1 v 1 encounters with aggresive P51B's they have always used angles better than I have.
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Personally I don't fly the B model much, but if I get in that situation with a D model, generally I wait till he gets about D700 off my 6, then I'll pull back on the stick, drop one notch of flaps and loop, but I won't push it till I black out, cus it will burn too much E. When I pass the top of the loop I raise flaps and wep to get my speed back up. Sometimes I'll do this with a yo-yo as well. The one thing you really don't want to do with a pony is flat turn it. I don't know a whole lot about ACM, but flat turning a pony takes away your best friend which is speed. So generally I keep him looping, and maybe even throw in a yo - yo till he makes a mistake (many la la pilots are new to the game and can't control it as well, however there are others, i.e. shane who aren't going to fall for this well). If I get real desperate I'll pull a loop dropping flaps as I go around the loop, raising them at the end, your loops get tighter, but your speed also drops.
La-Las are tough, especially low, if you don't think you can get one up above 10k, try and play with him long enough for him to make a mistake. This is of course a 1vs1 scenario, if his friends come around, good luck to ya =P
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Originally posted by hogenbor
Scenario one :
Two cons incoming so I head towards them. I'm closing but see that they are much higher then me so I reverse and try to get seperation.
I don't fly the 38 but my philosophy is different than most. In that situation it would be time to play. You have a Pony and a 190 with altitude, your flying a great manuvering plane. It would be time to see what they got.
Instead of "egressing" for separation, I'd have kept heading toward them off angle in a gentle climb to bring her to manuvering speed.
Then let the games begin. I'd take that fight everytime it was offered.
Yes you might die, but you died anyway.
You lost a good opportunity to do pilot "thingys" and see what you could do.
This tour I'm going in too deep over and over again. It's ugly. Got real frustrated and took a yak up to do some huntin. Killed four, burned a full tank and ran out of gas short of the runway, ditched and felt much better.
Now it's back to ugly, got stuff to work on..
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I'm in a P-38 (in which I am not very familiar), about 18k or so. After a nice furball everything went quiet for a while so I decided to grab alt. Two cons incoming so I head towards them. I'm closing but see that they are much higher then me so I reverse and try to get seperation. The cons follow me agressively and soon a Fw-190D is within firing range with a P-51 not far behind. I accelerate with zero G and WEP but compress badly. Before I can dump speed or retrim to at least get some control back the 190D kills me, not hard, I was going straight with no options to maneuver. But what could I have done if I still would have had control? Any ideas?
How high were they and how far away? I would've watched them for a while to figure out if they were coming straight to me. If not, I would've done a immelman to gain alt and instead of turning away, turn towards the contacts. Either way...I agree with an ealier post...force the fight if you think you'll die. At least you have honor to fight back.
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In the 38, you did the worst thing I can think of against a higher 190 and 51. You dove away. Sure, with dive flaps and proper trim, you can stay controllable up to about 520 mph, but even at that speed, higher Doras and Ponies will still chase you down and bite. There's no way you'd escape if they were determined to come after you.
Nopoop is right, better fight your way out. The 38 is well suited to tango with the poorer turning 190s and P-51s. I would have kept on heading towards them, climbing or diving (as needed) to attain good maneuvering speed, then attempted to bleed their E down to parity by thwarting their inevitable BnZ attempts. With each pass you survive (using whatever moves you have up your sleeve to take away their angles), the more the battle shifts to your favour. And if you lose, oh well, every hard fought engagement makes you better.
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Originally posted by hogenbor
No alternatives here, but I would like to know if a La-7 can outturn a P-51B, sustained.
It is close, but the La-7 will win that fight - assuming the La-7 driver is good enough not to go over the edge.
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Two cons incoming so I head towards them, first major mistake,
in an LA7 no p51 b or d is going to beat me, ever, stay above if poss 7 k, and extend extend,
wipass
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Scenario 2: only one notch of flaps? What were ya doing w/ elevator trim?
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Originally posted by wipass
in an LA7 no p51 b or d is going to beat me, ever, stay above if poss 7 k, and extend extend,
thats not true IMO, the p51b can out preform the La7.
i remember 1 sortie i had in a the Bstang
it at the end when i was allmost out of ammo and started RTbing
a La7 sneaked on my 6 and was closing, i lured him in to a slow barrel role keeping my plane just over his reach, untill he overshot me, i went for the snap shot and got him with my last rounds.
still have the film somewhere, was a great sortie :)
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Originally posted by Steve
What were ya doing w/ elevator trim?
You mean we can trim our elevators ?!?!?! :eek:
Just kidding ...
I have been flying the P38 as of late, and if you don't fly that monster with manual trim, you are flying a "Bus"
I have to agree wholeheartly with poop ... you should have taken it to them. Even tho they were higher, I would have trimmed nose down a little to get some decent speed for a good zoom, if needed, and flew under them to see if they would come down. If one or both started to come down, I would then trim nose up a little and wait for them to commit to the attack. Once they were within guns range (real close), I would zoom up and over and then re-evaluate from there.
Point being is that the 38 can zoom and fight at that altitude with either of those planes.
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in an LA7 no p51 b or d is going to beat me, ever, stay above if poss 7 k, and extend extend,
Reahehehehehly?
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Originally posted by Steve
Reahehehehehly?
I'll get you. One of these days. Just stand still will you?
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Scenario 1:
Whenever your in the combat zone you should consider highspeed climb as your climbout option.. you trade climbrate for manuevering speed, and in the combat area this is a good tradeoff..
try 2k/min at 250mph ias in the 38...
(exp my zeke has been doing 1.5k at 250mph recently)
at 250 you pop flaps and manuever with just about anything becuase thats near your corner velocity..
If you turned at first contact you could have gained enough distance to give you options for a reverse. At 18k you got plenty of air to out turn these guys.. Dont wait, make your choice and follow thru with it..
In the p38 you should be using Bruce Lee tactics... Be like water.. when you enemy comes hard, parry soft (turn and burners use e tactics) When enemy comes soft, hit them hard.. (use turn and burn against Boom and Zoomers)
38 is real jack of all trades, you got into a tail chase and thats no good.. Mix it up in that enviroment..
Scenario 2:
Wipass sums it up nicely.. Why you were you engaging two higher cons in a e fighter/B&Z mobile... In zeke (not recommended) or spitfire or some other turner and burner you have more leverage with a lesser e state but in a stang you really need every ounce of E you can muster...
At first contact interrogate them (check for radar blip, there heading, relative speed) if they are cons not friendlies and your in a e fighter grab and then engage them.. At a minimum of equal e states you hit them... One plane maybe youll be able to mix it up but 2 or 3 is not recomended if you want to survive considering your paltry e state vs higher cons..
In short avoid higher con engagement when you dont have #'s, exceptional pilots nearby (thats tenative) or your not in a turn and burner...
2 cents
DoctorYo
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I agree on that I did the worst possible thing in the P-38, but you have to find out the hard way. As you might imagine I am used to the P-51B which thrives at high speed. Can handle the 109's too and I know how to walk the thin line between control and compression (with elevator trim of course). Just not familiar enough with the P-38.
And where does it say I can't fly towards two cons? I was at 18.000 feet! Plenty high enough most of the time. Point is that they were seeking me out and attacked me agressively, even when I was hurtling down towards my buddies. May have had something to do with the fact that the guy that shot me down was killed by me minutes before (got his wingman too) so they might have wanted a little revenge :D
Normally I carefully weigh my chances but this happened all very fast. I do check radar, relative position, height, friendies nearby, the lot. I have leaned something in 1.5 years but it never seems to be enough.