Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: WldThing on February 21, 2004, 04:56:22 PM
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A small tip on AH pilots, many vets you may duel will dump their ammo load before engaging in a fight, therefore making them lighter for the upcoming duel. You should always agree before the fight that there should be equal ammo loadouts on the planes, or your gonna be at a disadvantage before the fight even starts.
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Would anyone who resorted to ammo dumping, tell you?
What about asking you a question in the text buffer, as they dive for the merge (i.e, try to get the jump on the dive as you're reading the question:) :)
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It's easy enough to have a third person watch in CM eye mode...
But WT is right... Most dump some rounds in a duel.... Quite a few dump almost ALL. It's definitely a pointer to consider for the DA...
Also, you should know which fuel tank to burn when too.... It also makes a HUGE difference in some planes...
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Would anyone who resorted to ammo dumping, tell you?
What about asking you a question in the text buffer, as they dive for the merge (i.e, try to get the jump on the dive as you're reading the question:) :)
They dont have to tell me Etch, there is usually a third person thats watching the fight from CM eye that tells me..
I've never had that happen, but if it does i ignore it or i just type "BZ" with one hand.
But WT is right... Most dump some rounds in a duel.... Quite a few dump almost ALL. It's definitely a pointer to consider for the DA...
BM is right..
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Would this be evident in a film if you switched to his plane and saw ammo count?
I assume the dumping would occur out of icon range so it wouldn't be on the film.
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Well, its not allowed in duels for the ladder. I think anyone caught doing it in ladder duels should be removed. Its not always easy to get a 3rd party to watch. I'm talking in general, I'm positive it wasn't an issue in any of the duels I had, and at this point, wouldn't much matter anyway. But if someone does that, it shows a lack of sportsmanship and I think they should be "outed."
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Originally posted by fuze
Would this be evident in a film if you switched to his plane and saw ammo count?
I assume the dumping would occur out of icon range so it wouldn't be on the film.
Nope, it wont be in the film..
Well, its not allowed in duels for the ladder. I think anyone caught doing it in ladder duels should be removed. Its not always easy to get a 3rd party to watch. I'm talking in general, I'm positive it wasn't an issue in any of the duels I had, and at this point, wouldn't much matter anyway. But if someone does that, it shows a lack of sportsmanship and I think they should be "outed."
Well its just another one of those exploits that some "older" players like to use to get an advantage, hence me telling you all it happens ALOT. I wont name any of the guys that do it, but im just shooting a tip at yas ;)
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you suck. get on IM.
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How much difference does say the MG rounds make to the weight of the other plane ? enuff to make much of a difference in a fight ?
It's funny that you raised this, as I just had a duel with a guy the other day who told me to dump all my MG as he was doing the same. was a totally new concept to me - hadn't ever thought of it - or it would make much of a difference.
I did once fight a guy who insisted we carry 50% fuel . I wondered afterwards if he really was carrying 50 and I wasn't just suckered ..... I don't think so tho - he's not a bad guy.
So now I always go with 25% - just in case
Redd
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I used to do it all the time. I mean ALL the time.
However its not allowed on Sours ladder so I stopped. It was allowed on Exiles ladder.
c yas up... Dave
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Having someone watch on the CM eye is against the rules also I believe.
c yas up..... Dave
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I think you should agree to each record the duel and swap films afterwards.
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Well you are right about a Disadvantage WldThing, but what about equal disadvantages with bothe Pilot?
For example: More Ammo = Bad turning but plenty of ammo, also on other pilot, Not much ammo but good turning!
In thhose situations you never know so you are right by saying to communicate with each other about the duel same ammo same plane etc.
That is all sir :)
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Originally posted by Marco50
Well you are right about a Disadvantage WldThing, but what about equal disadvantages with bothe Pilot?
For example: More Ammo = Bad turning but plenty of ammo, also on other pilot, Not much ammo but good turning!
Well if you cant turn how are you gonna get to use all that ammo you have on him? :)
And in a 1 vs 1 situation, when you saddle up on a guy he may only be 200 yards away, 50 rds of cannon from a spit will kill. Ive watched duels where the guys would decide to use ONLY 5 cannon rounds and they would still be able to kill each other.
:)
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Rgr that WldThing!... Have Watched duels sutch as that to... And yes but such as put Turning is Object to got on others Tail Etc But even for Strenthg of a Head on Can be put into thought...but other than that u r absolutley, 100% Right! :aok
PS: Just stating the Facts :D
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The thing that concerns me most about this is the spirit of the competition. If two people agree to a certain plane and fuel load, doing something wierd like dumping ammo is just a hack and shouldn't be treated any different.
Edit: some stuff
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
The thing that concerns me most about this is the spirit of the competition. If two people agree to a certain plane and fuel load, doing something wierd like dumping ammo is just a hack and shouldn't be treated any different.
Edit: some stuff
Well this is afterall a game, there is no such thing as fair game, its either play or get played. Ive been here long enough and witnessed many things, which brought me here to hopefully enlighten, hope it helped ;)
And if i can help, i help with knowledge that ive mustered up over my 3-4 years of playing..
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I can't say that I've ever lost a duel because someone else dumped his ammo. I'd like to think that my skill allows me a certain margin of error.
Drunkiness on the other hand... holy mother of God, talk about a duel killer.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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My point is one who is prone to exploit one hack, would probably exploit others if given a chance. I don't much care, as it is a game and brings me no income :) But it boils down to sportsmanship. Either its there or it isn't. Personaly I find no joy of playing with someone who's demonstrated a lack of it - regardless of winner.
Drunkedness otoh, is in the eye of the policeman :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I can't say that I've ever lost a duel because someone else dumped his ammo. I'd like to think that my skill allows me a certain margin of error.
Drunkiness on the other hand... holy mother of God, talk about a duel killer.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I was dumping ammo and intoxicated the last time we Dueled Levi. Mabye they cancled each other out? :lol
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Flight & Intoxication ...Don't Always Mix (Or Cross each-other out)
:rofl
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Originally posted by Nomak
I was dumping ammo and intoxicated the last time we Dueled Levi. Mabye they cancled each other out? :lol
I think I was 12 beers into a case the last time we dueled. And I wasn't dumping ammo. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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you were dumping fuel!!!!
i saw the yellow streaming fluid from your plane!!
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Originally posted by Shane
you were dumping fuel!!!!
i saw the yellow streaming fluid from your plane!!
Which Shane was trying to lick up :D "D
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I don't do that dueling thing, but in the MA I always dump my ammo.
It's not intentional though. My aim just sucks.
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I'm an ammo dumper of the Furious variety. I can blow my whole ammo load on one squirly 190.
As for the Dueling ladder, I am fairly sure I saw it posted in the rules that ammo dumping is allowed only after airborne, implying that you can't do it only while waiting on the runway. So I think it is allowed, but you do it at your own risk. Make someone miss enough, and you can win the fight. Don't count on someone like Wildthingie or Leviatron missing too often though. :(
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Good warning, WldThing -- I personally prefer the quicker tactic of shooting on the count of 9 rather than 10 before my opponent turns around.
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>>As for the Dueling ladder, I am fairly sure I saw it posted in the rules that ammo dumping is allowed only after airborne, implying that you can't do it only while waiting on the runway. So I think it is allowed, but you do it at your own risk.<<
From Sour's flight ladder rules...
"1. Guns may not be fired until after the first merge.
2. The initial merge is considered complete once one plane passes aft of the 3/9 region of the other plane."
Seems dumping ammo off the runway is fireing guns before the merge. Now that might seem like splitting hairs, but so is the the idea of dumping ammo after the plane is off the runway. What would be the point of that rule? To protect airport workers? Obviously it was meant to have NO ammo dumping.
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I'm a bit curious....
Exactly how much advantage to you feel dumping gives...?
I guess I'm curious if it's very small or more noticable.
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Well when licking up all the fuel wouldn't it leave a REAL Bad taste in your mouth :lol
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dump ammo and ram em , have to try that ..
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Do you maen an HO?:)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
From Sour's flight ladder rules...
"1. Guns may not be fired until after the first merge.
2. The initial merge is considered complete once one plane passes aft of the 3/9 region of the other plane."
Obviously it was meant to have NO ammo dumping.
I have to disagree... I think you interpret from a narrow perspective... I read rule #1 & #2 as HOing on the initial merge is illegal - plain and simple.
I have not read Sour's rules beyond the above stated two, but I am positive that Exile's had no ammo dumping rule implied.
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Well, its not allowed in duels for the ladder. I think anyone caught doing it in ladder duels should be removed. Its not always easy to get a 3rd party to watch. I'm talking in general, I'm positive it wasn't an issue in any of the duels I had, and at this point, wouldn't much matter anyway. But if someone does that, it shows a lack of sportsmanship and I think they should be "outed."
You imply that they are cheating?- The whole premise of A2A combat is to make it as unfair for your opponent as possible, or more plainly - to win. If a player opts to dump ammo, it is a risk he knowingly takes but he could possibly run out.
- I guess the next restriction is that other pilots can't burn their fuel in anything but the default pattern? Changes load distribution.
- nor will anyone be able to dive on the merge as that provides someone an "unfair" advantage as well? Seperation
- Flying through the clouds or placing the sun at your back is also "unfair"? Enviromentals
- You can't use WEP prior to the merge either as it doubles fuel burn and therefore creates a weight inequality? Weight
A pilot that does these things is using his/her knowledge of the the intricacies of the environment in which we fly, that fuel, ammo (weight), load distribution, and seperation DO matter. Why do you feel that somone's knowledge and experience in the game should be penalized and is in some way unsportsmanlike?
I say that both duelers should agree to a default load-out and a max merge alt, and a "guns cold" first merge. Use what you know about the game to the best of your ability and do your best to win. Then go fly and have fun, which is what this game is all about.:aok
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My only question is this, why is there a rule for no ammo dumping on the runway if its would be ok to dump it on the way to the merge? I can't see any sensable reason except that ammo dumping is not allowed.
Perhaps the rule should be removed, because it would be more trouble than its worth to enforce it. But I think its purpose is pretty clear at the moment. And I think to do it while the rule is in place is unsporting. Of course if you can think of a plausible reason that dumping ammo on the runway is not allowed and dumping it 200 feet off the runway is allowed, I'd be interested to hear it.
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Originally posted by BigMax
I have not read Sour's rules beyond the above stated two, but I am positive that Exile's had no ammo dumping rule implied.
This is from Exile on another thread on this forum.
"The rules about plane selection are meant to insure each pilot starts with the same plane. What you do with it once your on the runway is up to you.
I think "ammo dumping" is a valid tactic. It has it's advantages as well as it's disadvantages."
Ammo dumping was allowd on the old ladder.
__________________
SimLadder.com :: Check 6!!
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Come on people, I can't be the only one reading the rules am I?
Quote from Sour's ladder rules:
"Each plane is to have identical configurations at wheels up therefore dumping of fuel and armament on the runway is not permitted. Dumping on the runway will result in the forfeit of the flight. "
Must I add the implied: Dumping ammo after wheels up is allowed. Or can you grasp that by yourselves.
Again you do it at your own risk. There is no way to guarantee someone hase a full ammo load, so fight with as much as you know you will use, and don't complain if someone else is dumping and you are not.
I know for sure that it don't matter if I have 5 rounds or 500 rounds, im gonna get waxed by lots of the guys on the ladder.
Edit:
Sorry Tweetybird, it looks like you read the rules. Dumping ammo while stopped on the runway costs you nothing in acceleration. Dumping while airborne, costs you acceleration and speed.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
My only question is this, why is there a rule for no ammo dumping on the runway if its would be ok to dump it on the way to the merge? I can't see any sensable reason except that ammo dumping is not allowed.
I didn't know there was one...
Any ammo dumping rule is completely unenforceable and leads to tons of dissention an accusations... I hope my last post didn't offend you, I was just pointing out that an unenforceable rule only applies to those who "choose" to follow it. Additionally, it provides a huge advantage to those who don't. And a basis for the "he cheated" stuff.
My solution is to use less rules and leave it to the players judgement/preference. There can't be a foul (no rule to violate), and everyone is at equal advantage/disadvantage depending on their knowledge and experience in the game.
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Originally posted by BigMax
everyone is at equal advantage/disadvantage depending on their knowledge and experience in the game.
I would change that to read experience in the DA. Maybe why the few times in I never felt comfortable. The atmosphere seemed the couple of times I dropped in alittle heavy on the ego side. Sorta a club kinda thing.
Question I have being WT has givin a clue as to setups is what percentage of club members use enemy paddock view toggled on their joystick for keeping the con centered in the little circle of their moniter if they choose to go for a nearly full blackout lead turn ??
A year or so ago my opponent used it in a spitty V duel followed with a "yawn" after I was dispatched.
Boy that was fun.
I especially enjoyed the yawn.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Question I have being WT has givin a clue as to setups is what percentage of club members use enemy paddock view toggled on their joystick for keeping the con centered in the little circle of their moniter if they choose to go for a nearly full blackout lead turn ??
A year or so ago my opponent used it in a spitty V duel followed with a "yawn" after I was dispatched.
Boy that was fun.
I especially enjoyed the yawn.
Hmm honestly i have never heard of someone using this.. I tend to rely on my own ability to track the enemy not some padlock view.. But thanks for bringing this to my attention nopoop, good to learn something.
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i don't use padlock. much easier and more natural for me to follow with my own mental image of what's occurring along with the views.
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Sour is a squadie. I will point him here to answer any questions some may have.
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I am posting on this discussion in the Dueling Ladder forum.
Sour
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I've never used it either and I agree with Shane. I set my view all the way in the windows so there is very little to use as a reference.
After you get used to the views, you might lose 3 out of a 100. Doesn't mean I'm always am looking at them. I just learned to know where they are, or more exactly, are going..
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Rgr Sour <
> :)