Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on November 11, 2000, 12:43:00 AM
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AH truely needs:
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formation autopilot.
this autopilot should be able to hold position in:
1. level flight
2. smooth climbs (anything not abrupt)
3. smooth descents (anything not abrupt)
4. shallow turns (anything not abrupt)
5. altitude above leader (ie: 500ft below or 500ft above)
6. position relative to the leader (ie: 3 o clk, 8oclock, 6 o clock)
7. distance from leader (ie d300, d1.0, d2.0)
this would require autothrottle but would still be limited in ability to hold formation by leaders speed which would need to be less than full power
players would be able to select any friendly players aircraft within d4.0 and form up on it. this would allow players to all form on a single leader by using different distances in the a/p ( d1, d2, d3 etc)or to have each player form on the player they are next to or winging with while that player forms up on the leader.
when formation is broken by abrupt movement by lead or wing they should only need to press a reform key to bring them back to their spot in formation wihtout need to retype any formation setup commands.
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the reasons why formation autopilot is such a good idea:
less effort=more fun and allows more coordination and SA
the entire formation command will bring structure to coordinated online flying which is totally nonexistant.
and it will look cool as hell (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
autoformation command would be a true delight if added to AH.
the players in AH do not have the ability to fly in complex formations due to the nature of the interface through wich the simulation must exist.
and more importantly formation flying (ie gaggle formation) has no benefits in the icon tag environment
real world formation flying can be done entirely with peripheral vision while looking directly ahead in most instances while in these online sims its impossible to get the necessary field of view for realistic formation flying. (yes I have real world formation flying experience)
scenarios are always in a gaggle formation with no military structure. formation flying is nonexistant in the MA.
icons make formation flying totally unnecessary and in most instances flying a good formation makes you more vulnerable in the MA especially if in a buff.
this idea has been around a long time and really is a gem of an idea for online sims that is badly needed if a more accurate sense of ww2 combat is desired.
the limitations of a small computer screen are ussually to much to overcome for the most newer players.
the level of complex formations available to the players with this system is endless. finally we could see true buff boxes and line abreast formations
this is the one autopilot feature I think would be beneficial to all who play AH.
(and I hate autopilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
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Citabria
"You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with friggin laserbeams attached to their heads."
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 11-11-2000).]
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You say it well.
sax (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Only real problem I see with this is ... how do you define 'formation'?
Do you base it on the point of view of the formation leader? Because, never forget that each player will see the formation slightly differently due to the effects of netlag.
Say I'm the leader, and my wingie pulls in 100 yds level with my right wing from my POV. I'm doing 300mph.
Now from my wingies POV, he'll see that he is in the lead by about 200yds or so.
Nice idea.. but hard to incorporate on a practical basis.
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Yup Cit, SimGuild's "Battle of Britain" had formation autopilot and it was extremely neat. I liked it.
curly
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base it all on the players fe jekyll
the one who forms up controls their position from the lead.
just like we fly formations now the autoformation will be totally reliant on what is on the players fe
think of it as a standard level flight autopilot with speed control...
the difference is the reference for the each players personal autopilot would be the aircraft they are forming up on instead of the earth.
if the autopilot has a tolerance for lag/warp by allowing nonperfect distance position holding then warp and lag would not be a problem.
minor netlag and warps will actually make a structured system like this look very realistic with the aircraft moving around a bit.
remember the formation autopilot idea is only for your personal aircraft and based on what you see. what the other guy sees is irrelevant in all but massive warps/lags.
the leader has no control over your plane and the formation autopilot merely keeps you in position while you man your guns or scan for the enemy.
HiTech no doubt has the talent and ability to implement somthing like this if he feels it is worth having and it has been implemented and well recieved in other sims so its not like asking for the impossible.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 11-11-2000).]
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quote "...players would be able to select any friendly players aircraft within d4.0 and form up on it..." Citabria
How would this occur? If I hit .autoformation at d4.0, do I warp into position? That'd be a neat evasive tactic, sure to piss everyone off. Perhaps one should form up and then within certain parameters, such as maintaining a certain distance at the proper alt for X amount of time, the command could be activated.
Also, if a wingman and not the leader falls out of position, maybe to act as bait, does the remainder of the formation break-up? I wouldn't think it should.
I like the idea. For those that say it isn't real enough I ask you this, how real is it that I can go outside to have a smoke while my craft climbs to alt? Seems to be just a concession to the limitation of sitting in front of a computer.
Furious
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BAH, citabria, BAH.
Zat might bee a soloosjon for yoo allierte schweinhunde, but es is nicht gut fur us LWs!
You see ve haf ze necessary skills alreedy. It is gut only fur zoe sat cannot fly, or doe not vissh to take ze time to LEARNED eet!
Seriously, formation flying is a skill. Aces High is a skill based game. When our squad is up, we mostly fly in a loose formation, but at times we do a schwarm to scare the toejame outta the enemy. And it works. Here's how I rate an upcoming fight:
1) Am I alone, or do I have a wingie?
2) If more than one enemy, formation/type of airplane. If the same type and in a good combat formation, I expect heavy opposition.
3) Altitude
4) Window of escape for enemy and myself
5) Vicinity of friendlies/other enemy aircraft
and some other variables I cannot think of right now as I just got outta bed.
Formation flying can be learned. Tight formations require more attention to whoever you're forming up on, but it does so in real life as well. A combat spread Schwarm will only require a look now and then and a correction if you're drifting too far. At least in a schwarm, the only one ya have to keep an eye out for is the dude you're forming on. Unless friendly collisions is on, in which case ya better look at yer closest wingie plane too.
This is an advanced sim/game, not Quake. If people cannot be bothered to learn to fly proper formation, they shouldn't do it. That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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StSanta,
One little notice... bombers needs such 'formation autopilot'
When there comes a bit fighters around, formation usually gets messed up when you can't control the plane and gun the same time..
one pair of eyes and one monitor isn't sufficient to keep up with target(s) and formation.
With fighters.. I've had no problem - been flying in formation within 30 yards stable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta,
One little notice... bombers needs such 'formation autopilot'
When there comes a bit fighters around, formation usually gets messed up when you can't control the plane and gun the same time..
one pair of eyes and one monitor isn't sufficient to keep up with target(s) and formation.
With fighters.. I've had no problem - been flying in formation within 30 yards stable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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For bombers only, this is not a bad idea all together. But I tend to lean more to santa's way of thinking.
If something like this was implemented, any hit on a bomber in this formation should disengage it from autoformation immediately. Then the pilot would have to reform (and hopefully not from D4...more like D600).
If someone can disengage a bomber from it's formation, he should be rewarded (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Another take on this...I wouldn't take a single LW craft against a formation..cause with 1 gun a bomber can take u out OVER D1 now can u imagine 3 or more in formation firing 9 or so guns at u??? Personally I probably would never be able to get close enough for a shot. And I'm not grabbing an Allied AC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway..food for thought
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Wingnut
GeschwaderKommadore
P.T.R. "Black 13"
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
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Yea.. those super defensive turrets should be downgraded to their realistic levels
I have heard alot stories of fighters taking over 50 hits of .50 caliber from B-17 formations and not even having damage.. but in AH thats pure impossibility, even 1.5k hits does effect sooner than that...
Accuracy is pretty good with those lasers too.
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Learn to fly formation!
It is not easy but can be done.
I flew B17s almost exclusively when I flew in the main arena and if bombers were in proper formation prior to pilots jumping to guns or bombsight the formation would hold.
It was not easy, nor should it be, it took much practice and minor heading differences when going to auto pilot for bombing or gunning can totally mess up a good formation.
A big part of the immersion was trying to get and hold tight formations and the thought of several B17s following lead around like little puppydogs is ludicrous.
If you want AI controlled wingmen or targets go fly EAW.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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By the way, EAW is a very good offline flightsim, in case anyone thought I was being unkind referring to it.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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StSanta, Sunchaser;
You guys are missing the point.
1. In AH we very rarely see formations beyond 3 bombers, this would encourage it.
2. Most AH pilots do not have the experience or patience to fly a good formation.
3. In RL bombers, such as the B-17, had 2+ guys to drive the plane as well as 6+ guys to man the guns and watch out for enemy fighters from all angles. In AH 1 person must do everything. My squad can fly formation as well as any in AH (often 8 to 14 ships), but we cannot man the guns while we are in the drivers seat! As soon as a pilot jumps to a gun after flying he drifts away from the other planes in the flight. If a fighter, or fighters, wait at a safe but threatening distance, the bombers will become so scattered in a few minutes that they will be out of range to provide good mutual support. It does no good to hold a formation if you do not benefit from mutual defensive guns! An Auto-Formation mode would be more realistic than not.
4. Pilots would still have the option of flying manually. You would actually get more opportunities to fly formation manually if auto-formation were to be adopted because you would probably see more formations to fly with!
5. Even good formations would be vulnerable to a good fighter attack. In all of the time that I have spent flying in AH, I have seen very few good formations (all planes within D600 or so). Probably the best formation that I have seen (not flown by my squad) was a B-17 5-ship. I solo attacked this group with a series of four vertical attacks and managed to down 4 of them. (All of them fired upon me on each pass and they hit me on my fourth attack, I lost a wing and B-17 #5 got away and hit our HQ.)
My squad (The Buccaneers) flies manual fighter formation at least a few times a month.
In bombers, we have devised and adopted a method of auto-pilot-formation. It involves .speed settings and rudder only turns from the gunner positions. We can keep a tight formation while manning our guns for as long as 10 minutes. Sabre described it well in a previous post. I will find it and add it to this post.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Sabre (Rojo)
Received some nice feedback on the below article on Buff Formation flying, so I thought I'd post it here. It has
really made a difference when the Buccaneers get together and "buff it." Enjoy.
"Formation Flying In Aces High: Going from Mass Gaggle to Combat Box" by Sabre
Anyone who has tried to fly close formation in a flight simulation such as Aces High is aware of how difficult it is
just to stay within a few hundred yards of the other buffs in your group. That problem becomes infinitely more
difficult when the formation – or “mass gaggle” to use a bit of Air Force marching slang, since most of these
amateur attempts at station keeping bear little resemblance to the tight “pulks” we’ve read about – is suddenly
assaulted by the inevitable pack of interceptors.
It’s happened to many of us: we’re at the controls of our Flying Fortress, weaving and bobbing all over the place to
stay at least near another B-17. We finally have pulled together a loose defensive formation when one or two
enemy fighters appear. As the fighters attack, all the pilots jump to a gun position – typically, every pilot in the
group will jump to a gun position, regardless of whether they’re a likely target or not – and begin banging madly
away at the assailants. While the're all busy playing Sgt. York, the formation quickly looses any coherence, coming
apart in a “star-burst” that leads to easy pick’ins for the follow-on attack.
This article describes a simple station keeping technique for keeping the pulk together through repeated fighter
attacks. It takes discipline and practice, but will increase your chances of making it to the IP ten-fold. It involves
careful use of the .speed command, a gentle touch on the rudders, and a firm hand on the throttle.
Because limits placed on the number of on-line players in Aces High (or any other on-line sim, for that matter),
your faced with a cruel choice. Either a take a large formation, with pilots filling the duel role as gunners, or take
half as many buffs, with two players in each (one as pilot, the other as a dedicated gunner). In the former, you
sacrifice formation integrity during attack for a greater number of defensive guns. In the latter case, you have
tighter formations, but half the number of guns. This becomes extremely important when face with multiple bandits
attacking from multiple directions.
Note: WarBirds (WB) has “Sgt. Otto,” i.e. the computer will automatically act as gunner, firing at targets within the
pre-determined parameters built into the AI. However, even in the case of WB, human gunners are preferable, as
they can work together, prioritize threats, and are not restricted by factors that constrain Otto.
The method described involves flying from the nose gun position, instead of the cockpit. Why fly form a gun
position, and why the nose? First, it offers an unobstructed view of the planes ahead and just to the sides (you
don’t care how close you are to aircraft behind you…it’s their job to stay close to you. Second, while in the gunner
position, the .speed command and “trim-on-speed” (TOS) autopilot still functions. Also, the rudders and throttle
still work, and manipulating either will not disengage the autopilot.
Simply put, the lead plane (here after referred to simply as “Lead”) uses "Alt-X" to "trim on speed" (TOS), and
selects a speed using the .speed command that will maintain the desired pitch attitude at a selected throttle
setting. Lead MUST fly at something less than 100 percent (a manifold pressure (MP) of 40 is recommended), for
reasons I’ll explain shortly. Lead announces his .speed setting to the flight, and must immediately relay any
changes to it he makes. For a B-17 at 50% fuel load and 12x500 lb. bombs, a speed of 140 will give you a
reasonable climb rate at 40 MP. Lead also fly’s from the nose gun, and uses gentle, pre-announced course
corrections using only the rudders.
Everyone else simply uses the .speed cmd. (with the TOS engaged) to adjust range/closure rate to Lead. The
rudder is used to adjust lateral spacing, and throttle to adjust altitude. Remember, the TOS autopilot cause the
aircraft’s pitch to increase or decrease in order to maintain the speed set using the .speed cmd. If Lead has 140
set, and you have 140 set, you will both remain stationary to one another relative to two-dimensional spacing. If
you’re sinking relative to Lead, throttle up; if rising higher than lead, throttle back. If you’re too far behind Lead,
increase speed using the .speed command; if getting to close, set a lower speed. Throttle adjustments are again
used to remain at the same altitude as lead. This all sounds somewhat complicate, so I’ll give you an example.
EXAMPLE: Let’s say I’m the second ship in a three plane combat box. All pilots jump to the runway. Lead calls “roll”
and everyone throttles up. Once airborne and in at least a loose formation, Lead now throttles back to MP 40, then
sets a speed of 140 using the ".speed" command and hits Alt-X to trim to speed. Everyone else in the formation
does the same, then jumps to the nose-gun position.
Now let's assume that I notice I’m starting to fall behind. Therefore, I set a climb speed of 145. This lowers the
nose to gain speed, so without increasing throttle, I’ll drop below the formation. Thus, I throttle up. Once I’ve
closed to within 150 yards, I reset speed to 140, then chop throttle to 40 MP, coasting up to a position 75 yards
behind Lead. A slight corrections with the rudder offsets me to Lead’s left, with the other Fort offset right.
Once I’m in positions, it’s extremely simple to simply tweak my throttle setting to maintain my horizontal position
and my rudders to keep lateral position. Now when we’re attacked, all pilots can jump to whatever gun position
necessary (remember to keep your feet off the rudder pedals while gunning). A formation stabilized in this manner
will hold together for a long time while it fends off an attack. The key is for Lead to announce any changes in
speed or direction in advance, and not to attempt either when enemy fighters are nearby. Once you reach crusing
altitude, Lead must pick a speed and throttle setting that will hold level flight. REMEMBER, this is only effective
with the .speed command. If Lead trims to level with "X" once you level off at altitude, instead of "Alt-X," it
becomes much harder to hold formation -- triming to speed is the key to holding your formation together.
Obviously, if fighters attack while you’re on your bomb run, you’ll still be without defensive firepower. The way to
get around this is to have one or two planes forego the bomb run to shoot at the fighters. Remember, the tighter
the formation, the easier it is to defend. Some enemy pilots in Aces High will steer clear entirely of a large tight
formation at high altitude. The Buccaneers have managed to fend off four and five enemy fighters at a time with
only six Forts. The trick is to jump back as often as possible to the nose position, in order to arrest any formation
drift that occurred during the attack.
This method really becomes quite intuitive very quickly. I had it mastered within the first ten minutes of flight when
introduced to it. If I can do it, anyone can. Good luck, and good hunting.
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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)
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Originally posted by eskimo:
Originally posted by Sabre (Rojo)
{SniP}
Read the artical a while back, thought it was Very informative, and try to apply it to fighters when doing scenario's as well. It IS possible to fly in formation, although very difficult and requires practice, and good communication. (RW Helps Wonders for this)
<S!> Hamish!
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the only formations available in ah are variations of trail and wedge formations. all other formations like line abreast are impossible with the tiny field of view of the monitor.
formations in scenarios suck bad and are not at all realistic.
buffs in a gaggle fighters in a gaggle etc and they are always in a gagle even when the front 4 are in good formation the other 5-6-7 are all waddling around.
disorganized looking and not all that realistic
overall the skill to fly formation with this limiting interface is not present in the abilities of most players.
its along the lines of thinking of autotakeoff.
you may not need it but most others do, especially new or even skilled bomber pilots in large formations that are under attack.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 11-11-2000).]
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Guys, I know your trying to help, but any kind of auto formation will just make flying bombers tedious.
People come to Aces High to have fun, if it ain't fun they won't do it.
Please listen to the guys that have flown bombers a lot in online sims. Flying in formation can be done, but it not easy, that is where a lot of the fun lies.
I don't mean to offend people but people who mostly fly fighter trying to 'fix' bombers just isn't going to work.
Just to muddy the waters, what would go a long way to sorting out a /lot/ of the complaints, is bomber auto-gunners. Now I know that would be unpopular (mainly with the fighter people) but without it you really are not going to see much use of bombers in Aces High.
Right now a bombers defensive capability consists of one rather large scatter gun, not 4 or more separate machine gun positions.
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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I have to disagree with that on some extent Cita, i flew in a pac-rim even quite a while back that was simulating B-29's hitting tokyo. The formation of B-17's we had, while not a perfect "box" formation, was very good for a sim imho. We certainly ripped the fighters that were attacking us to shreds with the overlapping FOF once we got near the target. had to wake up at 7:00 AM to get to that event, was quite fun all in all and i was impressed with the professionalism of it.
Hamish!
P.S. you going to come back somtime Cita? I almost miss gettin' shot outta the sky by ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I stress the word "almost" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Have it only work between similar aircraft
such that only 17's can fly in formation, and not a combination of Lancs and 17's in the same formation.
SKurj
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LOL Graywolf;
Do you know who the supporters of this idea in this post are?
Tour 9, time spent in bombers:
Citabria = 20 hours
Sax = 25 hours
AKcurly = 30 hours
eskimo = 40 hours
Graywolf = 14 hours
And Graywolf;
Auto-formation would be a heck of a lot more fun than riding along as someones gunner.
A big formation is fun just to watch.
You might make it to your target a bit more often, aint that fun?
YOU CAN FLY MANUALLY AND USE AUTO-FORMATION ONLY WHEN IN THE GUNS, IF YOU WISH!
Hamish,
Drive a 12 ship formation deep into enemy territory, to the HQ. See how many fighters come at you at once. See how tight your formation is after everyone has been manning the guns for 10 minutes or so.
eskimo
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Bring escorts, lots of them.
No more auto gunning than we already have for me please.
I know a good fighter pilot can waste a bomber formation, Citabria has wasted several of mine in the past but that was my fault for going without proper escort.
I never flew B17s, or anything else online in WB but did here and in SDOE and getting and keeping formation to, over and back from the target is what it is all about.
Bombers are boring to most people already and there is not much place for them in the Main arena and I flew them less and less as the tours rotated toward vehicle warfare.
Making them attractive to more people by adding AI capabilities might work but it probably will not happen and I for one hope it does not, I need reasons to come back, not more to stay away.
Eskimo, good points for sure but # 2 is so 2000, sort of like "this is way too hard so the makers must make it easier so I can play the game instead of learn the game."
Number 3 is good too but including a gunner makes it invalid.
OK, all these ideas from all of us are based on our expectations from AH and they are different.
So different in fact that, as excellant as Sabres formation holding tutorial is and the fact that it works very well indeed, the words "flying from the nose gun position" totally nullifies it for me, B17s were not flown from the nose gun position.
That method is great, it works, just not for me.
I guess the point, if there is one would be Learn the sim within computer screen limitations and use whatever "reality" you think applies.
As if any of this stuff realy matters anyhow.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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I don't know why this is so hard to understand, but;
B-17s were never opperated by 1 man.
This is the main point!
Sunchaser;
My third point did not indicate adding a gunner, the pilot becomes the gunner.
And;
When you are in the guns, who flies the plane?
eskimo
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 11-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 11-11-2000).]
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Eskimo, when I am in the guns I hope I am lead.
I am well aware that B17s were crewed, carrying a gunner is the best we got for now and there are at least some guys out there who would rather gun than fly.
B17s also went down in great numbers without escorts, AH sure has that aspect covered.
Given dedicated bomber pilots, dedicated gunners and dedicated escorts B17s could survive and be effective in even the main arena without AI involvement.
It would require many more simmers than we have at the present time though.
Look, I am not trying to change any minds here or piss anyone off., just wasting time stating my opinion 'cause I can.
Hell, I am not even paying anymore so what I think means even less than it might have 2 weeks ago.
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Hi
Bomber formation auto pilot wouldnt be realistic in any way. Formation flying is a skill that has to be learned. We allready have level, climb, auto-trim, and take-off autopilot we dont need any more. Just tell your guys to form up on you and hit auto level then coordinate changes. But an automatic formatin switch would be terrible in scenarios too. The whole tactic of interceptors in WW2 was to break up the formations and kill individual isolated planes after, with this magic formation autopilot that would be impossible. Soon well see guys asking for autopilot landings, the autopilot zoom climbs, autopilot dives, autopilot shooting down, autopilot running away, autopilot this and autopilot that. Bombers have it good enough as it is with their hispano 50cals, B52 high alt FM, laser guided accuracy from 35000 feet and god knows what else. Sorry to sound so ticked off but it seems some aspects of AH are beggining to slip in realism and this would just add to it.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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No autogunners...
just auto formation, with realistic ceilings for buffs!!
SKurj
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I have never flown a B-17 mission without being shot down. Go auto-formation!
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Citabria,
With all due respect I can't find myself arriving at the same conclusion. Formation flying is a learned skill. It adds a demension of realism and accomplishment to the game. If everyone could just HOOK up then you could get huge globs of planes coming to one area then all these buffs are nothing more than a huge controlled flying AA battery. It could be abused and used as an flying Ack Platform flying through fighter duels. Flying formation is not that hard and is fun.
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/screenshots/cttabria.jpg)
I know you remember many formations of past. It's not that hard, even a bunch of fighter jocks can do it too. Note the high cover..Lets keep it realistic and not Autodumb the game.
Thunder
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.form Skurj
Host: You are in formation with Skurj as leader.
Procedure... You form up manually on the leader, when you are satyfied with your position you type as described above. Then your plane will try to have same speed, climb, and heading as the leader. It has to have some kind of disable if the leader jerks too violently. Else the whole formation will go down in a spin if the leader looses a wing (could look cool though)
I never fly bomber myself, I am a Jabo freak but I think bomber formation would be nice.
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GrinBird
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This whole idea, for fighters or for bombers is a bunch o' baloney. I have no problems maintaining formation, even in bomber, even from the guns. It is a learned skill, just like ACM.
The trick is getting everyone into position before the attack. Make sure everyone has the same .speed set and same throttle settings. You can align yourself perfectly in the formation by using trim to make minute course adjustments. Once you've got it formed up... don't mess with it!
If you cannot maintain formation while being attacked, do to lack of piloting skill, overtaxed SA, or damaged aircraft, you should and will fall prey to the interceptors. Just like in real life. I vote for no artificial assistance of this kind.
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 11-12-2000).]
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Grunhertz, Thunder and Sancho;
You have not addressed the question:
Who flies the plane to keep it in formation while you are in the guns?
Have you guys ever had nonstop fighter attacks on your formation for up to 10 minutes at a time?
Sunchaser;
Your reply was a cop-out.
You are in the lead while you are in the guns?
What about everyone else? Most planes will not be in the lead. Who flies the plane while they are in the guns?
eskimo
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It's okay, I agree with you eskimo! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've managed to fly in many large formations between 4 and 20 or so, but like you said as soon as you go to guns then that formation rapidly diminishes! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Auto-formation would be really cool for scenarios where you'd have to carpet bomb the target. That would be fun!
I recently led a formation of about 14 or 15 Ju88s in an attack on Malta in the SEA. The formation wasn't too bad but as soon as you go to bombsight or guns then it quickly broke up and we lost most of our planes because of that. Oh well... time will tell!
Regards
'Nexx'
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eskimo, it comes down to squad priorities, really.
Why use some software code to traighten out a problem that s not in the software realm?
I.e it's every squads call whether they want to go for more bombs and b17s and will havbe problems holding formation, or go for half the b17's, and have one pilot and one gunner.
That alone makes auto formation not needed. Add to that the consequences of automating things in order to enable a skill that can be learned to people who are too lazy to learn it, and it sums it up pretty good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Eskimo, when everyone jumps into their guns the auto pilot maintains course {flies the plane} right?
Well, just make damned sure your course is the same as lead before you jump and all is well.
If it really needs explaining, as lead I would not have to worry about my course, thus the "cop out."
{Forgot those lousy smiley things again.}
OK, how many of us really think HTC is going to or indeed should even consider wasting time programing AI code for holding formation in bombers or fighters?
Not me.
{Make us some early war stuff instead please.}
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Cita once brought up an idea that i thought was good a while back: aa way to dial in a heading for autopilot, that would help buff formations/fighter formations both.
Hamish
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Hmm I keep seeing "Who's flying the plane while your are at the guns?"
Well bombers did NOT maneuver while in formation. The formation provides the defence. The only time a buff should be maneuvering while under attack is if it is alone.
Once we get the ability to track more than one target while gunning (more than 1 gunner per ship) the gunning solution maybe easier.
A buff that maneuvers while in the formation, is no longer in the formation, so the formation autopilot would make no difference.
Smoke trails for buff guns will have to go if we ever have multiple gunners per ship!! (like to see em gone now)
SKurj
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Originally posted by eskimo:
LOL Graywolf;
Do you know who the supporters of this idea in this post are?
Tour 9, time spent in bombers:
Citabria = 20 hours
Sax = 25 hours
AKcurly = 30 hours
eskimo = 40 hours
Graywolf = 14 hours
LOL, my point exactly! I don't fly bombers in Ace High, they're flawed. Yet most of the people above have only double my time in them.
In Warbirds with 617 Squadron 14 hours would be ONE saturday's worth of airtime for me...
I leaned to fly bombers by tagging along with the Wildcards, I was in the Red Raiders after with -bobn- after he left the Wildcards and I formed 617 with kfsone when we split from the Raiders...
ie. most of my time in Warbirds (from 1.x to when I had to spot because of workload about a year ago) was in bombers...
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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Got enough bombers now... don't need to encourage more.
SKurj +)
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My point exactly Sunchaser. You don't mess with the controls once you are "locked" on the lead. The lead better not be messing around with his throttle or controls either. You don't worry about "who's flying the plane" since you will stay in formation automatically. You just better make sure you're tight before jumping to guns!
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I will alter my original impression with this one. I have flown buffs for YEARS 9+ to be exact in sims. I like the idea of formations and LARGE formations. But they would have to drop together and not be so accurate. But maybe the targets could be on total damage in an area. Fighters could have lots of realistic formations to attack and the buffers could gun a bunch. More Flak puffs and it could be more accurate. It may have some merit. I still like things the way they are but if the community likes it Cit.. I guess I'm for it.
Lets Just have fun!
Thunder
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 11-12-2000).]
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Flying in formation is a skill that you learn in this game just like gunnery or ACM. I, for one, only started flying this sim in late Tour 6....maybe Tour 7....dont remember. I learned to fly B17's in formation pretty quickly. I put a lot of time and practice into it at Sunchaser's request because we wanted to be able to fly in formation and be effective in the Main Arena or in the SEA or wherever. I think that if someone wants to fly in formation, he needs to take the time to learn it. This is the first online sim that I have become involved in and its not that hard to learn formation flying. I guess it goes along the same lines as the "dweeb" planes. You all complain that dweebs fly these planes because they dont wanna learn how to fly correctly....what next? Are the people using your "auto-formation" gonna be dweebs also?