Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on August 23, 2000, 02:14:00 PM
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I think I may be on my period or something but I have had some epiphanys here as of late:
I have lost a lot of confidence in the application of physics in these FMs.
I actually have started to get this sick feeling that AH is a game first, then a sim.
I am convinced that the guns lethality settings are omni-potent so as to provide that instant gratification so desired by gamers.
I love gamers, I consider gamers great folks and have no ill will against anyone who is a gamer. Hell, I spent the better part of yesterday trying to game the game (I did not enjoy myself at all). I am and always will seek the challenge of accurate simulation above the game on any day! My frustration
is reaching critical levels here....
I flew WBs because it was a combat simulation first and foremost. Its reputation as the best online combat flightsim was well deserved. I stayed away from AW because it was obviously a game with a tad bit of sim thrown in.
Is AH a game?
Does AH intend to compete for the current AW crowd? With what? gameplay or accurate physics/ballistics?
Am I out of line?
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-23-2000).]
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WB was made by HiTech. Why would he fudge it the second time around?
-SW
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hehe another one who open the EYE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
maybe my english sux but i know what i feel in L-39 :-))))))))))))
and i cant feel it in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)((((
but with time This Shot Em UP online plane looks like packman will mature and become a sim ! i hope ! :-)))
Planes need more Character !! all they looks like a not a Twin brothers but 32 brothers ? i dont know the corect terminology for this word :-))
HTC give a each plane it own Roleplay
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Why would he fudge it the second time around?
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I have a tremendous amount of respect for EVERYONE at HTC!
I would never suggest anything less than genuine quality and craftmenship from Dale, Doug or anyone at HTC. All I wonder is whether the focus might be on making a great version of AW to get the income from what is largely accepted as a very, very popular ($$$) game first, simulation second?
I want the emphasis to be sim first, game second. Not the other way around...
Alas, I see the financial purpose of a game first. I am a minority in this regard so I am getting bummed.....
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-23-2000).]
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game (noun) An activity providing entertainment or amusement.
simulation (noun) a. Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in experimental testing. b. Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another
Seems to be a bit of both. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I would also hate to see AH become another Dweeb Circus, but I think it is a long way from that. I don't envy HTC the problem of balancing quality, challenge, and customer acceptance, but I'm happy with their course so far. What makes you think they are changing their focus?
popeye
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 08-23-2000).]
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What Popeye said.
But let me ask a question? "I flew WBs because it was a combat simulation first and foremost. Its reputation as the best online combat flightsim was well deserved." Has that changed? When WB's started out were there things WB's had that AH does not now have?
My take on your post sounds as if you are saying that the old ICI group had brought WWII aircombat-flightsimming two steps forward but that HTC has taken them one step back.
I personaly only see historical events missing but they are gearing up. Otherwise in my opinion HTC has taken WWII aircombat-flightsimming well beyond WB's and any other current sim/game - technically speaking. I do acknolwege that AH (and WB's) is nothing more than what AW had already been and that was aircombat in a free for all arena with special events tossed in for spice.
The more that folks participate in the "Check Six" type of events and provide feedback, as well as more AH releases that help expand the historical possibilites, along with the terrain builder and the Jokers Low scenario group I forsee AH just getting better.
I think AH is a great sim with good gameplay. If it was just a sim I could just fly somthing techically overwelming off-line I imagine.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 08-23-2000).]
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Just a thought Yeager. Remember in WB when all you heard at times was the guns weren't strong enough, that they weren't realistic? I do. Then it went the other way for a while. Now I think there is a lethality question again in WB. Is there really a happy medium or is it our perception?
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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saying that the old ICI group had brought WWII aircombat-flightsimming two steps forward but that HTC has taken them one step back.
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No, these guys are leaders not followers.
Whateber they do, they will do exceedingly well.....I just wonder if Im slowly becoming extinct, or if Im just wagging out?
Needless to say Im frustrated by the way these FMs are performing. How reversals are so friggin rare and altitude and speed are so damned overbearing in their necessity. Frustrated by the lethality of cannons and a feeling overall that the ballistics are just too damned sweet. Frustrated by many, many things, including myself.
Yeager
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Semantics. The answer to your question lies in your definitions. To me, it's obvious that AH is a game. It's played for entertainment. I don't know of any computer combat "sim" that isn't a game, sims are just a genre of computer games. How far the fidelity is pushed is a different matter. Where do we stand on this? Both sides actually. We want the planes to behave as realistically as we can make them. OTOH, we really don't care about trying to model or make people learn a 20 step sequence just to start their engine.
As to what the specific issues you have about the physics, I don't know as you don't mention them. If this is not something we strive to get accurate, I wish I knew about that last month because we've spent a tedious month studying the most boring technical research and doing more math than a math major during finals. And we're still not done. That's a huge chunk of development time for us and it's not exactly fun work.
As to lethality, I can't change what you believe as to the why's. As to whether you think its correct or not is going to based on your own expectations. I find it ironic how in WB, by their admission, they've turned down lethality substantially from where they believe it is realistic for gameplay reasons. Yet here you are railing on us for having high lethality to appeal to a gamer crowd.
The reality is, higher lethality does not appeal to a gamer crowd. It makes the game a lot harder to learn as you have very little margin of error and your life expectancy is lowered considerably. It's why in the old WB easy arenas, there was reduced lethality, not increased. Another thing I find ironic are those who refer to our high lethality is "Quakelike". In those games, it may take an entire clip of ammo from point blank to bring a guy down. Have these people actually ever played quake or do they really believe that it should take multiple clips from point blank to kill a person?
Overall lethality is real easy to change and can be done at any time. Yet we've never changed overall lethality. Why do you suppose that is? It's not that we're against making changes.
Lastly, the development philosophy that created WB is the same one behind AH.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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pyro , nobady critic on quality of works :-) not me i just and maybe others say the nubers can be not inaf if u use data and data u must model air humydity, air teperature . , diferent terain create difernt hot air colums and milion of other litle things , so To many numbers to be realyze , and when u compare performance data of all planes in same category ( fighter for example , the diference is it only on last 2 digits well ,maybe in combination of all data it make some diference betwen planes but not inaf significative Diference to Give a real charakter to a plane
HTC made a Big job !!!! i Whine but probably never will live the game :--)))))))
apropo more heads, more ideas , and no idea are nut , only need a corect time to be realizable :-))))
AH is great and 1 day will be even greater , We hope all :-))
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In FPS shooters I can kill most opponenets with 1 or 2 shots. AH lethality is way too high, 2 bullets and boom there goes your stabs.....
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Pyro,
Dont let me get you all huffy!
Your post is honest, welcomed by me and as usual, widens and restores my sometimes faltering perspective. I needed that and I offer you my personal thanks.
Now please get rid of the F4U1C, cut that extra pair of balls off the 190A5 and put them BACK on the P51D (wink :~)
Yeager
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maximus: in arcarde like FPS (Q3,UT) you need clips of ammo to shoot down your opponent - talking guns and rifles, not the BFGs!!! In REALISTIC "shooters" like R6 or DeusEx you need 1 clear shot, preferably aiming at a very sensible area, to disable your opponent.
As for AH - how many 20mm shells you think will a plane take before it looses vital parts? If lethality is too high for you fly the c202 for a while and you'll have your go! I agree with Pyro that low lethality is much more arcade like and will attract lots more "gamers" - e.g. FighterAce. Planes with good armour can take some beating and more than once I made it home in a totally shot up plane - but I dont expect to survive from a direct hit of a F4U-1C or A8 with full gun package. Try the 30s on the G10 once very good lethality but very hard to hit with - that's fun - and that what it's supposed to be!!!
In ACM it's about getting a good position for a snapshot not saddling up on a opponent. Those guns were deadly and are here in AH! Personally I find AH the most mature sim there is out there. Although it takes some time to learn it, it offers hundred of hours filled with fun! The FM just feels right - there might be discussions on the FMs of certain planes but that are details and who knows what's right anyway??? I love AH the way it is and can hardly imagine how it will develope - hey, any whereabouts on v1.04??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As the mainstream sims tend to be more and more arcarde like to cover a greater segment of potential customers AH stands its ground as one of the few realistic sims that need to be learned in theory and praxis - I "happily" ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )pay my 30 bucks for that kind of entertainment!
Kirin
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I don't mean to come across as huffy. But we have spent a lot of time and effort working on these things. It's not what I consider fun work and I don't even have to deal with the programming side of it. It does sound like you'll like the changes though.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I think question is easily answered, look at all the newbies that have trouble getting to grips with AH.
If it were a game then Joe Quake would be in here en masse.
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to me, a game by a wide margin. I changed how I play this game to not let my blood pressure sky rocket. I will do every dweeb stunt known to man now, never would think of doing that in WB. I rarely use acm like I used in WB, just grab big cannons and spray. Will wait and see for the new revisions. I also think some type of historical terrain would help. I have high hopes for this game, one of the reasons I stay here pluggin along.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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"In FPS shooters I can kill most opponenets with 1 or 2 shots. AH lethality is way too high, 2 bullets and boom there goes your stabs....."
Uhm well but those bullets have too hit those stabs before is has some effect.
and some cannon rounds could do that i think.
Sometimes i get hit and nothing happens and sometimes toejam happens.
guess that's realistic
the physics etc., still surprises me everyday because it's modelled not in the simple way like those fps. I personally only tried some but never got hooked. Only DF got me a bit but that was years ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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By Yeager:
Im frustrated by the way these FMs are performing. How reversals are so friggin rare and altitude and speed are so damned overbearing in their necessity. Frustrated by the lethality of cannons
Well, what you described is a sim and not a Quakeish game. Altitude and speed are the most important things in any serious sim. And 2x20mm plus 2x13mm were lethal indeed.
I for one dont like those incredible WB reversals. One moment you are following the guy climbing, next second he guns your brain out with an HO. This is gaming the game, IMHO.
There are some things i dont like about AH, but I think it is really better than WB. I felt very bad during the first 2-3 TOD here. I had to relearn to fly and fight ... in a more realistic way I think. I'm happy with it ... even if I miss badly the early war plane set.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 08-23-2000).]
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Yeager....<S>
You ask.....is AH a game or a simulator?
It should be viewed by Hitech and Pyro as neither.....
It is a business designed to make money for its investors, which is what all of these companies providing entertainment platforms like this should be.
Interestingly enough, so far regardless of age and maturity of their corporations and product lines, none of these companies are doing anything but burning cash, let alone providing any IRR to shareholders.
Conclusion? AH, WB or WWIIOL had better be whatever they need to be from a software development point of view, that attracts the maximum amount of players generating enough revenue to cover the costs and provide returns for their investors. Once at that point, then it is irrelevant as to whether it's a game or a simulation, but it at least will have the "legs" to stand. The rest will be nothing but memories to old flight sim grognards like us.
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator? http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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<S> Pyro
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AH is a game when you are shootin the crap out of the other guy, it's fun. AH is definately a sim when it's the other way around. Either way for $29.95 a month I would rather spend my time gaming or simming on AH than blowing $2 per hour on WB. Getting shot down in an unlimited time arena doesn't quite piss me off as much as spending $2 for the same result. And I do get shot down more than my share. My hat is of to HTC for the product we get on thier limited budget and manpower. I'm sure it will eventually be the #1 sim/game in the near future.
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That gentleman can defend himself quite handily....
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Badger pontificated:
Interestingly enough, so far regardless of age and maturity of their corporations and product lines, none of these companies are doing anything but burning cash, let alone providing any IRR to shareholders.
Did we go public and nobody tell me because I certainly don't remember a quarterly report going out. Just what do you base your statement on?
As to us not doing anything other than burning cash, I'll have to take the day off to think about that over a black market Cuban lit with a $100 bill. You may also be onto something there with the notion that a business has to achieve profitability to succeed. I'll check with HT and see if he thought about that before he put all his money into starting this company.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Pyro. I agree with everything you said about the guns. So how about cranking the 20mm back up to where they were (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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“Familiarity breeds contempt!”
Constant daily exposure can frost a guy to the enviornment.. any enviornment! Some of us are guilty of having spent more hours in these simulated cockpits than they did back in '44.
I get the feeling that HT and Pyro have put about a gazillion hours into this upcomming version.. and we all can appreciate just how damn familiar they have become with the enviornment, too.
I, for one; look forward to the new version..
it should be kick bellybutton for a buncha reasons and I'm confident it'll be the best yet.. and thats saying something, since this damn sim (game?? HAH! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) is already better than anything else of it's gender out there.
Of course, being outta circulation fer the past several weeks MAY have changed my outlook.
A tad.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Originally posted by Kirin:
low lethality is much more arcade like and will attract lots more "gamers" - e.g. FighterAce.
Kirin
I think I was slightly insulted there..hehe.
Not to take this off focus because it's still about the same subject, but FAII is no where near "low lethality" as that I often took P51's down with a short burst from my A-4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There are a lot of "gamers" in FA and FAII. But there's plenty there that take their "game" seriously. I came here to get away from the whining about 1 shot kills and how the spit 14 is overmodelled etc. Apparently I can't get away from that..hehe But before I continue, I don't put down WB's so why must ppl always include FA in these post? (current pain in the arses at the WW2OL site exempt)
There's a lot to a "sim". If there's 12 different ppl playing, there's usually 12 different idea's on what is "real" and what isn't. I think the gun's are a little more accurate here, but I think the way the planes "feel in the air" around them is better done in FAII. I think AH has done a good job on climb rates and over all plane models, but I don't necessarily like their tag system. I like AH's FM for everything but the stalls (and I think that this might be fixed after the upcoming patch and it's better E retention).
No matter what game we play, there will always be things we dislike or like about it. And I've yet to see any game get everything right. It's just a matter of making sure what we choose really fits most of the high points we're looking for.
Either way, AH is rocking with it's changes and at least (unlike other sims) they continue to listen to the gripes, and suggestions, instead of turning out a product and just sitting back collecting the money (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Enough of my soapbox, sry for the long post.
Wingnut
"He who shoots first, lives the longest"
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First of all, Pyro, it's "A Better Tomorrow" and the $100 Bill is counterfeit.
Sorry, somebody had to say it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Second, those who call ir t a "Sim" are those too embarassed to admit that to spending so much time and money on a game. Take this simple test: If it's something you're paid to do as part of yer job, it's a sim. If you do it because you enjoy it (or, gasp, if you pay for it as a non-business expense), it's a game, or at best, a toy.
Get over it.
Besides, I recall playing golf for the first time a month ago, and hitting several shots into the arroyo right in front of a loser from Player Services who was patrolling our hole at the moment. I came up with some "I'm a loser remark", and his response was, "It's all part of the game".
Games have mystique, sims have fidelity. Why can't we have both?
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 08-24-2000).]
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He heeeeee, this is very interesting!!!
I'm still a happy customer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think of this as a sim. I came from AW and compared to AW this is a sim. I still fly AW(once a week on squad nite). This to me has become a "hobby", not a sim or a game. This involves working with joysticks,computers,modems,all the tech stuff. Yet it involves "art"(the art of flyn, gunnin). There are so many aspects to this hobby it's amazing!!!
It seems to me that there is something here for everyone. When ya get bored with the "tech" side you can work on the "art" side, or visa versa. It should never get to the point frustration because the frustration is self imposed!!
Anyone else havin as much fun as me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Wingnut, I didn't want to insult anybody. I do not put a highger value to serious simmers than on "gamers" (that's why I put the ""). To be excact I started my online flying career with FA - and played it hours and hours, before I switched to AW3. I tried the demo of FA2 and it felt the same as FA but what I say is concerning FA. The FM there just doesn't feel right - planes loose no E, almost no differences between planes (who said the planes here have no character?)the usual fight ends up in a train where 10 ppl follow each other shooting their frontman down, spraying it full with that funny coloured stream of peas. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Best proof who the game is made for: Relaxed realism (don't know anymore how it was called there) are filled - hardly anyone in Full realism...
I believe you that some FA jocks take their game seriously and I don't want to say that the AH pilots are the better ones... everyone should play the game he wants - for me AH is the non plus ultra at the moment...
Heheh - missed the main topic I think. Well, AH is the best WW2 Sim to date but still has a great potential to develop and it's the only game I play at the moment (besides DeusEx (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) oooh that Warren Spector is a magician)
Kirin
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I love gaming this sim! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Ciao
Ps How can I post an Image?
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I like the leathality, and I think that it is realistic. Sometimes 1 or 2 hits will take down a B-17, and sometimes a zero can take 50 hits. It all depends where.
<S> to HTC, I am still amazed!
eskimo
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Hi there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have been a paying customer since day one, and I aint planning to change that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I did however download WB and signed up (heck, it was a year since I quit my account there, had to try it again), well, I just quit my account there again(after the first month), there is a HUGE difference between WB and AH, and it all goes in AH`s favour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
There are two tings about AH`s flightmodel I feel is wrong(at least feels wrong), but I actually dont have a clue about flight physics, so what do I know?. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
1. I feel the planes are slow(little sense of movement), even when I dive, and I know I am going fast, very fast, I still dont feel it does that, in WB I actually get the feeling that I am diving fast.
2. The planes feels to similar to me, I thougt a P47 should feel VERY different from a Spit, but it dont, not to me at least, there are some difference but not much.
Naturally it might just be that it all are late war models, and therefore shall behave relatively similar, I dont know.
However, AH is the best, most realistic online (offline?) flightsim I know about, and I am shure Im gonna stick around for a very long time, looking forward to the next release like a child looking forward to chrismas, every single time a new release is just around the corner.
BTW Pyro, how about a update on the next version, it is a while since the last one, aint it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)?
PS. Any plans to implent support for MS Force feedback in the close future ?
It would be nice if you did (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://home.sol.no/~laerga/lassel.gif)
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-
[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 08-24-2000).]
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re WB
The planes feels to similar to me, I thougt a P47 should feel VERY different from a Spit, but it dont, not to me at least, there are some difference but not much.
Thats the thing I noticed most about the difference between WB and AH. Glad I'm not the only one feeling that way...
DmdBgm
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Is AH a game or a sim? Easy question.
It's both (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's a game in the MA where we have Spits fighting Spits.. B17's being attacked by P47s etc.
It becomes a sim when we get the scenarios rolling over historical terrains so we can re-create the great air battles of WW2.
And IMHO I have no doubt that the ballistics of gunnery are fine.. it's just that its presently too easy to get guns on target because we have an icon system that measures target distance to the exact yard.
HT, Pyro.. why not just an icon system which records distance to the nearest thousand yards? It would certainly make judging an opponents energy level much more difficult, and it would also help to prevent some of those long range (over 600yd) sniping shots.
Just D8, D7, D6, D5, D4, D3, D2, D1, D0
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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Quote:
Re WB's:
"2. The planes feels to similar to me, I thougt a P47 should feel VERY different from a Spit, but it dont, not to me at least, there are some difference but not much.
Are you serious????
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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I don't know the answer to Yeager's question but the truely sad thing is, that no matter how much "realism" you put into a Sim, it will always be considered "just a silly game" by my Wife (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Ogre
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Yeager
I think it's both but for me the flying is a Sim and the strat is the game.
I started AH because I love flying and A/c and this is the most realistic I've come across. The strat aspect adds the gaming side.
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Well, Pyro kinda hit it on the head. The game can be a very detailed "simulation", but as long as we play it for entertainment, it's a game as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Now, the question is, how much of the game is a simulation?
IMO, AH is primarily a sport that uses WWII planes as sporting equipment. What do I mean? Well, although AH does an excellent job of simulating the flight characteristics of these aircraft, the Main Arena doesn;t resemble actual WWII air combat all that well. Honestly, for me, I hope that a "game" does develop where I can see more actual WWII-like combat (ala the old scenarios in WB), but I also like the "quick fix" I get from AH. That's why I think AH and WWIIOL will be able to co-exist on my HD (as long as they can co-exist with my bank account anyways).
Anyways, just some thoughts
Vila
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Right now its an game, if we ever get another arena without the fantasy settings it will be more like an sim...
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Pyro said : "OTOH, we really don't care about trying to model or make people learn a 20 step sequence just to start their engine. "
Will you go for 15 steps? Are you willing to haggle? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It seems like BoB and CFSii will have micro cockpit/engine management ... so they say ... maybe one day AH will have some too? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Back to the topic! For me AH becomes a sim when my levels of immersion reach high levels ... it becomes a game again when I realise I'm sitting in front of a monitor with a big goofy grin, after my wife tells me to shutup or I'll wake the twins (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Cheers
Yosus
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Yeager,
Your problem is your getting bored. Pure and simple. WB and AH are exactly the same thing. They both use historical aircraft (FM flight dynamics etc) in a non-historic environment (The arena)
Now WB does have some events that help to put the aircraft in a historic environment, but even there some licence is taken to make up for the lack of some aircraft that aren't modeled and terrains that haven't been made.
Those things are coming to AH. Terrains are being produced, scenerios are being generated. Look at it as AH being WB the Return (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Although it started with a better graphics engine and better physics modeling this is where WB was around ver 1.0 or so.
As to the FM modeling how can you be so sure that the FW didn't perform as well in real life as it does in AH? I know I don't I wasn't there. I wasn't flying for my life and niether was anyone here. All we can go buy is some numbers and the written word of those that were there and those often conflict.
The guns in my oppion seem to be very well modeled. I've been around firearms all my life and have seen the devistation something as small as a .30 cal round can do at ranges up to 1000 yards. The problem with using true ballisitic data in the sim is we have little of the factors that make hitting some thing at that range difficult. For instance go fly with icons turned off and try to tell the differance between a con at 800 yards and 500. It's damn near impossible and that 300 yard differance would make a hell of a lot of differance in your ability to hit that target.
I personally think the biggest step toward realism HT could make without seriously affecting playability would be to do away with range data in the icons. Notice I said the range data not the icons. The icons are necessary due to the limitations of the computer monitor and computer graphics.
What I suggest is to forget about the holes in the sim and concentrate on the things you like. The problems are known (wings falling off Mustangs and some small errors in flight dynamics etc) and are being addressed. The historical events/arenas are coming (no not fast enough for me either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) Cut em a little slack in the time department, they are working on it.
I am convinced that HTC is commited to providing us with the best flight sim possible while still providing us with something that is fun and enjoyable. Until they prove me wrong, I'll continue to support them as best I can.
Sharky
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Pyro -
How about throwing a few cubans in a box and sending them my way. Thanks. Oh and send a stack of those lighters you're using.....
You guys are doing great, keep up the good work. (No perk planes, please).
Sour
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
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I dont want to convey the impression that I am dogging HTC. AH is a superior program in every sense. Graphics, interface options, FMs....
AH is the pinnacle of computer based 1940s era combat flight simulation. I have gone out of my way to tell the guys at HTC how impressed I am with their achievement! Because of this, I feel I can discuss issues relavent to my experience in AH and get honest feedback from the developers as well as the community! (this has been demonstrated and I personally thank all of you).
What I wanted to convey (and was tastefully rebuffed, somewhat re-aligned by pyro) was that the way I approach AH is from the perspective of a simulation rather than a game and I feel (lately) that the game is compromising my impression of what a combat sim should be doing for me.
Pyro nailed me right in the spiffy when he commented on how narrow the margin for error is. That was what was bugging me. If I dont approach it with red flags all over the place I just go BLAMMO! There seems to be very little in the way of defensive options. Either come in high and fast with 4 20mm cannon or dont bother. In thoughtful retrospect this is probably (as pointed out by pyro himself and others) very accurate.
I just need to take some time away and regain my combat posture.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-24-2000).]
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yeager dont worry i second your thoughts. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
you are not alone in wanting simulation but like pyro says 10 stage engine starts would be dull.all i want is to fly and fight in a realisticly handleing simulated aircraft that matches the RL counterparts as closely as possible,but,after reading books on the war and reading that 109's for example were dogs to fly needing constant trimming etc I have come to realise that HTC have done a fantastic job on the level of difficulty and have removed the stuff(realistic engine starts,constant attention etc) which would in all honesty bore me to death (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
all i can say yeager is if it turns too gamey ill start yelling with ya and maybe others will join in.but for now im happy enough to keep paying the subscription even though i hate the f4c too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
htc always comes up smelling of roses so roll on ju88 and lanc and 1.04 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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All this thinking hurts my head,game or Sim?
Lets put it in perspective. It's a game that happens to be a WWII Air Combat Flight Sim. First, if it weren't a game we'd get to only make one mistake <G> I use this venue to relax and have fun. If it weren't fun I wouldn't participate. Comparing AH, WB, and AW is like comparing apples to oranges. WB is wayyyyy to expensive to spend any time playing. I've found AH to be better myself
then WB ( I only flew it two weeks) Now I flew AW over 5 years. almost 6 now <G>. I quit AW once I played AH for many reasons. First of all the aircraft modeling I appreciate more in AH then AW. Secondly, yup, ya get bored seeing the same thing day after day, if it weren't for the SAC skins and Terrains in AW I probably would have quit a long time ago. And the flight modeling in Full Real in AW....let's just say they had their idea of how it should be....and i had mine <G> This game is developing, and not stagnating like AW3 did. You'll find a lot more former AW players coming to this venue because of what I've just mentioned. On-Line gaming, or even flight Sims can't just depend on the community to keep the game going....sooner or later people look around for something different. And what satisfies them best will be what they play! Notice I said play <G>We're all here because we like AH! If you'd have flown AW as long as I did, and see nothing really but maps change in almost 4 years...you'll know what I mean. Kudos to AH for taking the time to model, fly, and keep track of connection issues by participating with the players. It's a good sign that someone takes the time to see what is actually happening. Not waiting for E-Mail to come in <G> and then seeing if the complaints etc. were legitimet weeks later.
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Yeager,
The answer I have was given in a couple of different posts. This is a game. You get unlimited lives and no one really dies (except from apoplexy) in the game.
It would be a SIM if you had to train for 4 to 6 months to learn to fly then had to start flying missions. When you died or were captured your account would be canceled and you could never play again.
I think there is room for improvement but I also wasn't there. I do, however talk to real WW2 veteran pilots who can give me some insight.
I am tired of the BnZ aspect of the MA and that is why I spend more time in TA for FFA than in MA anymore. I LIKE the turn fight game and that is sure death in the MA. This is how it should be I guess. I know of no fighter pilot group other than the Japanese that looked at the turn fight as a primary way of combat. The slashing pass and scoot outa dodge was the REAL LIFE way to do stuff. Don't give the other guy a decent break since when you lose you are gone forever. I am very thankfull this is a game for that purpose!
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/mav13.jpg)
No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-24-2000).]
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SIM!!!!
HT is an Artists, money is the last thing on his mind!!!!
ROOKs suck Ziggy is a dork!!!!!
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What Hajo said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)!!!!!!!!!!!!
<S>
Maik
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Aces High is more of a game than a sim at this point, even more so than Fighter Ace 2 or Warbirds.
IMHO:
A simulation has allied and axis countries, flying appropriate types and quantities aircraft for their nation and time period.
A simulation recreates organized missions, replaying historic battles on accurate maps.
A simulation models supply chains and production.
A simulation has a war with a beginning and an end.
Aces High is quickly moving from being a "game" to a "sim" with the mission planner, etc.. exciting times are ahead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TS
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Can an outsider ask a question here?
What's the scenario activity in AH like?
And Westy.....Bigweek's moved again..
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There has been much progress dealing with scenarios in AH lately. The recent release of the terrain editor has prompted the experimental creation of many terrains, several of which are undergoing testing.
A CM team was recently establised and is currently fleshing out several different approaches with special events.
I expect a good amount of scenario growth will occur in AH soon.
Yeager
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Yep Seeker there are 3 sometimes 4 events each week. Check the Special Events Forums for announcements.
Information on TOD and Snapshot is here: http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/jokers.htm (http://www.hpcisp.com/~kieren/jokers.htm)
There are also Saturday night "Check Six" events but these are on hold for a week.
There are also Far East events that are very well run. http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~tamichi/ahevent/jp/top.htm (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~tamichi/ahevent/jp/top.htm)
The Terrain Editor is now bearing fruit and you can expect some multi-frame campaigns starting soon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Are there any plans or is there already a historic arena for everyday online play? If so is there some information on the site about how it works?
(I don't have a subscription yet)
TS
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No. There is no 24-7 historical arena.
Instead there will be special event multi-framed historical re-enactments and weekend historical matchups with modified icons and geographically correct terrians.
I believe the reason for this approach is to maintain continuity of the larger community in the main arena while allowing the special events to be attractive to both the larger player base and the lessor numbered historical afficionados by retaining the status and appeal of special events.
Just my personal take on the subject.
Yeager
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AH simulates ACM and the geometry needed by real wwII aces.
and I love simulating ACM while drinking a beer.
So its simutainment. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Drex
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Give an engineer the task of creating "The Perfect Simulator". You will end up with the engineer building the very thing you needed to simulate. Other wise one must accept varying degrees of accuracy.
AH is a Game that Simulates.
Simulators are meant to be learning tools. This is so that the actual object being simulated does not get damaged while the student learns how to operate it.
Games can be meant for learning tools.
But....
The major difference between a game and a simulator is that games are primarily meant to be ENJOYED.
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Try it?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"OUCH!!! It hurts to bite your tongue."
Popeye
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Seeker! Good to see your post. I got your email btw but am recovering at home from a hernia operation so I'll follow up more privately when I can sit at this PC longer.
Anyway... Scenarios? Slow start for sure but it's very promising. Folks can make thier own terrains (thank Cod for Mage but he was so as the plane set gets fleshed out the sky will be the limit. The weap and fuel load outs eliminate several bones I (and others had) about past AW scenarios. The best news is that HTC recruited a fine group of players to form a "CM" group, not unlike the SMG, but more supported by HTC. Vermillion and the rest are meeting next week evidently with Pyro to get thnings rolling (I hope!).
Been in a couple of "Check 6" events which are the equivalent of a Warnight and they hold a lot of promise!
-Westy
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A game like Quake2 is based on a story with its own logic. If you wanna adjust the gameplay, you can put in a double barreled freeze gun with poison titanium nails - no problem! - Because it fits fine into the story and universe that Quake2 is build on.
- But that dosent mean that you can put anything in there! A Spitfire eg. would look very strange and distort the whole gameplay and internal logic of the game.
IMHO the difference between a game and a simulation, is that a game can be based on any story. It can be siencefiction pulpfiction, fantasy, D&D You name it!
A simulation is different from other kinds of games because it gotta be related some way to real life. And a historic sim like AH gotta be as closely related to the history as it was as posible. - Else its not a sim but just another game.
I want a simulation on all levels. I want the planes modelled right, I want the battles modelled right. I want to take bases as bases were taken in World War II. - With tanks,fighterbombers and strafing fighters.
I dont want to see Bombers overmodelled to make people fly them more, I dont want to see Bombers (which in real war could hit with 44% of the bombs within a square of 1000 feet) hit a 1*1 yard area with 100 % precision.
But offcourse HTC gotta think about gameplay too. It gotta be fun to play AcesHigh. But I think that its possible to do both: A fun and motivating game´, based as much on historical facts as possible.
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GrinBird