Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on August 24, 2000, 02:42:00 AM
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I have long believed there are no uber planes in the arena -- just uber pilots. I would like to propose a simple test to prove the point.
Take the pilots who are ranked 1 through 10 and the pilots who are ranked 91 through 100. Let each pilot who is ranked 1 through 10 fly against each pilot who is ranked 91 through 100 exactly one time. There are 100 such pairings. We're talking about 100 fights. It wouldn't take very long since we could have 10 fights going on at once (at different fields.)
The top 10 pilots would all fly C 202s and the 91 through 100 guys would be permitted to choose one plane for all of their ten fights, preferably one of the so-called uber planes [p47, 190a5, 109-g10.]
When it's all said and done, we could count the number of kills recorded by each of the top ten pilots.
I'll bet dollars to donuts the top 4 or 5 guys don't lose a fight.
It's the pilot, guys, not the plane. Heh, I don't imagine this would resolve a single issue, but it sure would be fun to watch. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKcurly
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I have been "ranked" #1 overall a couple of times. I can attest that there are at least a few dozen guys, not neccesaraly "ranked" high, that can whip my butt in any almost aircraft pairing.
eskimo
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I agree with Eskimo, scores does not tell the whole truth.
I've known and fought with many who are not even within top 50, but are far greater than pilots within top 10, what comes to skills and not to score hunger.
Whos good, has many definitions.
One might say that survival shows good pilot, one might say that who takes down 6 on 1 most of their enemies is good even though he dies during that and then one might say that someone is good who has got alot kills just by shooting planes taking off, because he has alot kills.. etc. etc.
I have never believed myself in score tables due to these reasons, because those tells just statistics, not the whole truth.
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Apart that-you are only on the top of the list if you fly Bombers,fighters and goons.
I wont be in the top scores anyway, but I will never be because I dont like buffing, and so I WONT buff to raise my score (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So, #91-100 can be (some ARE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) better than the #1-#10.
The only score I consider worth a looking is the K/D ratio, and not by much. Scores only tell what one wants them to tell.
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I spent 2 weeks playing for score once.
BORING!!!!!!
Landing every time I got a kill & flying far from the furballs (so I could escape) Lots of tank & bomber time and spent one day doing nothing but fly c47's & M3's.
After half a tour I was in top 50, proved the only thing I wanted to prove. That I could make the top 50 if I tried.
Been there done that have NO desire to do it again. Screw score, lets have FUN!
As to the "challenge" above, while I agree with your basic idea. I do think that each of the top ten guys would likely lose one or fights. I agree however that they'd come out overall winners.
It's the pilot not the plane!
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RAM,
I buff to help out my team. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cobra
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Hi,
I'm current ranked 6th and when looking who are currently ranked 90th-100th... pls don't put me in 202 and tell me to kill them in their favourite plane! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My ranking is high because I buff or goon when it is neccessary. My K/D is high because I try not to get in trouble and I love vulching. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Kaitsu
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Hehe Ghost, that reminds me of my squaddie DMF, whose favorite line is "You guys go ahead and RTB, I'll keep fighting until I die or run out of fuel or ammo".
And he does just that.
One time, about a month ago, he rtb with us "Just to see how it feels to land in AH!"
LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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P/O banana
XO 308(Polish) Sqn "City of Cracow" RAF
Multi-Frame Events Team Lead, Aces High Scenario Corps.
"Look at me when I HO you!"
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Maybe the way to select candidates for the top ten spots would be by poll. All of us know who the good pilots are and I suspect we could correctly identify them. I agree, pilot score doesn't tell the complete story.
AKcurly
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DMF sounds like my kind of guy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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If we take the time to select the top 10 uber pilots... we might as well just ban THEM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Banning Torque alone would aleviate most of the "uber cannon hog" debates (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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I dont care about score have no gaol to meet just want to have fun!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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What??!!
They keep score??
Hot Damn!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hey, I don't want to ban Torque. He's the only top pilot I've downed.
He was coming up fast behind my Tiffie in an F4U-1C (surprized what he was flying, aren't you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) and I decided that my only chance was to haul my big, unmanueverble kite around and HO him. I managed to do it and we were both destroyed in the hail of Hispano shells. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Two kites, each with 4 Hispano IIs, Head Oning each other = Confetti.
I've been shot down my Mitsu once and by Citibria twice. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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As the rankest pilot in AH (101 where the list only goes to 100) I say "dunt matta".
This game is like golf (which I also suck at)
You make you're choice, plan a strategy of attack, get out foxed and learn something for next time.
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The score page rankings do NOT show who the best pilot is...NO WAY!
They show who has found a ride they like and have the time to fly it.
Skill IS important but it is also the ride.
Hell the #2 ranked pilot is a buff pilot so does that mean he can out fly me in a fighter?..no it means he is a good buff pilot..prolly flies high where fighters have problems chasing him or he flies in a group.
I bet if I flew only c-47s for the next tour that I would be at the top of the rankings.
Not because I'm a great pilot but because I know I get more points by capturing bases or buffing or even driving a tank.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Geesh, I think I am ranked somewhere in the 700+ range. I fly nothing but a Yak-9, just love that bird. All I can say is you may kill me, But I gonna make you work like hell to do it... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Mighty1:
They show who has found a ride they like and have the time to fly it.
Skill IS important but it is also the ride.
So wait a second. I've flown a goon 5 times. I've buffed 4 times. I've jaboed a dozen times this tour. Most my time I spend in fighters. Not any one ride. So you are telling me I have the time to learn one ride and my skill is only good in that one ride? Sorry dude, that's incorrect. For me anyway. I fly planes from all over the spectrum. P38(ooo that's a FUN plane!), 190A5(for Torque hunting :-), 109F4 when I want to work on my aim(it's freaking amazing in the right hands), C205(_WOW_), P51(not much though, I like to stay in the fight), and well I've flown just about every plane in the game in the MA. Do you consider Hblair good? Do you consider him better than me? I'm just curious is all. Everyone who has said people in the top 10 weren't good pilots or whatever are passing judgement based on a bias thinking that if you are high up in the score ladder you must NOT be good. Ironically you nor Fishu have fought me, and you are passing judgement on my abilities?
Careful people, I really suck. So says people who haven't fought me. Watch out if you get in the top 10 on the score page, you immediately gain the title of a "sucky pilot". :-)
-AK(I really suck now)SeaWulfe
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I'd like to see this proposal take place. I agree the scoring system does not truely indicate who are the best pilots but I feel the planes that the best players fly have a lot to do with their skill. I also feel it would show who's better at dueling 1vs1 versus vulch scoring. The plane DOES matter IMHO.
If I understand your rules AKcurly I just might take your bet! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Of course I wont be flying in it, I fly all planes equaly bad! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So how about it all you Aces?
Mox
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 08-24-2000).]
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AKcurly's idea of a poll would work well. Everyone could submit a list of who they think are the best pilots in AH. Submit a list of the 10 guys who regularly kick your butt (or save your butt, if they are on you side). Results could be tallied. We would also have to chose 10 better than average pilots to fly the "uber" planes.
As far as the score system being porked, it is only 1/2 so. Better pilots tend to gravitate towards the top. The key word is: tend.
Only 30% of the total score is helped by playing alot (fighter points, bomber points and base captures). Not sucking, or ignoring, one or two of the 10 score categories helps ones score more than doing very well in one or two of them. The score system reflects well rounded pilots, not just good fighter pilots.
Jabo, tank and M-16 sorties also kill ones score. RTB is very important to bomber score categories, but not as critacal to fighter score categories.
K/D ratio alone isn't a great measure of pilot skill. Many pilots fly with different attitudes at different times. Some very good pilots are willing to repetedly attempt take off from a vulched field. Others only look for vulch opportunities and tend not to stray from a pack of friendlies. Some fly to kill and live one sortie, and Kamakazi-jabo the next.
I didn't mean for my responce to start a bash the score system thread. It is much greater system than the "other" game/s. The best thing about the score system, is that it encourages anyone who cares about thier score to do something other than fly fighter sorties (Can you think of another way?). Believe it or not, fighter VS. fighter gets old after awhile. Having more bombers, base captures and strategic objectives makes this game interesting, and more fun!
eskimo
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I you really care about this ego stuff. The ladder is there. Thats about as fair a fight as your gonna get in a sim.
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Originally posted by easymo:
I you really care about this ego stuff. The ladder is there. Thats about as fair a fight as your gonna get in a sim.
I agree but it does not show how/if the plane makes the difference.
Maybe we should look at the ladder to select the top pilots that will fly the 202... just a thought.
I'm not interested in this proposal for the "ego's",(this game needs no more ego's!) I'm just curious if flying a certain plane really makes that big of a difference. I'm consistantly amazed at the moves certain pilots pull off in a certain plane and very curious to see if it's the plane or if it's the pilots or truely a combination of both.
Now that I think about this, it would really be a challenge to those top pilots that fly the 202 in a test like this. Not sure if it would be fun for them though... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Mox
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I'm not big on anything that involves "voting for the best" of anything. Its way too subjective and virtually impossible to guage.
It would be like saying the best pilot in WWII was the one that got the most kills.
Also... it inevitably turns out to be a popularity contest.
I only know who the better pilot in the arena is... the guy that just shot me down.
AKDejaVu
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I agree with eskimo as I'm sure most here do. Flying fighter vs fighter can get old after a while.
Organized flying with specific goals/mission is a lot more fun. I especially enjoy the weekly squad nights of the AKs. We do something different every time and it has been a blast. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Popularity would be an issue, and some frail egos may be crushed if they weren't sellected, but who cares? We certainly could find 10 of the best AH pilots via a poll and test AKcurly's idea.
BTW, who the heck is Ypsilon? He always leads the K/D ratio by a wide margin, yet I don't recall ever running into him. I know he flies the stang, but is he really good, or just pretty good and very cautious? Either way <S> to him.
eskimo
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Umm Ypsilon has like 58 sorties and 38 kills... not hard to do, you just need the patience.
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A fellow knight has a film of him alt-f4 ing to avoid a fight where he was at a disadvantage.
Don't <S> him he is a skilless dweeb.
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If you want 10 good pilots, just snag the top 10 on the ladder...you may miss a few who don't fly there, but I think that's a pretty good representation. I wouldn't get your bottom rung guys from the ladder tho'. They're all FDBs and probably couldn't care less about this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I don't think that this type of 'contest' is going to enlighten anyone who's already made up their mind. All planes have strengths and weaknesses. A good pilot learns to harness the potential of his ride, whatever that ride might be. Sure a plane with more strengths than other rides might give that pilot an advantage, but that pilot will get shot out of the sky when he meets another good pilot harnessing the strengths of a plane that can prey on his plane's weaknesses.
*Disclaimer: SOB represents neither of the pilots in the above paragraph (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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whoa!<takes step back ..re-reads post>
AKSeaWulfe no where in my post did I say you were a bad pilot nor did I say anyone in the top 10 were. I only said that <as brief as I could since I'm at work > the people in the top 10 are not necessarily the BEST pilots.
I don't mean to sound degrading but I've seen to many people reach the the top 10 who only fly 1 AC<normally a uberplane..you know a spit or 1c> and fly 2+ hours every day.
I guess my point is that you don't have to be a great pilot to be ranked high.
I apologize if I have some how offended you..that was not my intention.
I know you are a good pilot ..I've flown with you and against you for a long time.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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An Alt-F4 in flight counts as a disco.
A disco counts as 1/2 of a death to the K/D computer.
I just checked the stats on Ypsilon, here are his discos for the past few tours(fighters-bombers):
Tour 7 0-1
Tour 6 0-0
Tour 5 0-4
Tour 4 3-5
Tour 3 0-0
13 discos in 5 months, I wish my connect was that good. I'm not saying that he didn't Alt-F4 (like I said I don't think I have ever run into him), but I doubt that it is a habit of his.
This tour so far he has 65 kills in 51 sorties, no bails captures or deaths. I still think that's quite a feat, and I doubt that many could match it. I certainly wouldn't say that it's easy to do.
I respect all modes of flying in this game, each to their own. I bet he is into realism, ie: flying as if he only has 1 life. That's cool by me, sounds like a heck of a challenge. If he isn't one of the "uber" pilots in this game, then that must make it even more of a challenge.
eskimo
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Ahem,
I am the best pilot in AH. I know I am and can prove it. I am the one pilot who most frequently does an aerial intercept of the enemy pilots bullets. ANYONE can intercept a plane but it takes a REAL pro to intercept the bullets in flight!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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Ziggy you are wrong aboot Yippie, Yip mixes it up pretty good I've seen it and am impressed with his k/d ratio. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Zippies has got real good SA.
You guys are Dorks top ten usually just the people who log the most hours. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Who gives a toejam about score or ranking anyhow???
PLEASE HT 1.04 SOON THE NATIVES ARE GETTING DORKY (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
nath u r 1 smf
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For me the definition of a top pilot's is very simple. If I come on him one v one do I say "oh crap", or "yummy lunch".
HiTech
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Umm... If I flew a P51 I could get a 100/0 KD If I wanted to... maybe more. i'd like to see how good ypislon does in an A8.
dorque, ubigay
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
Aces High Scenario Corps
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Originally posted by hitech:
For me the definition of a top pilot's is very simple. If I come on him one v one do I say "oh crap", or "yummy lunch".
HiTech
Would what he's flying make you say "yummy lunch" instead of "oh crap" because you know you have a plane that will outperform his?
Example: you meet a pilot who you alway's say "oh crap" but you notice he's in a 202 and you're in your ride of choice would you say "yummy lunch"?
Just curious if HT thinks it's all the pilot and nothing to do with the planes.
Mox
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 08-25-2000).]
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So Nath implies that the 51 is an easy ride to survive in....I contend the same in either FW....simply a style of flying.
Talk is cheap Nath....grab a pony and prove it.
I'm Out!
PS...Congrats Yip....takes serious patience and discipline to do what you've done.
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Wow 2 posts, that coming from a nobody. haha.
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For me the definition of a top pilot's is very simple. If I come on him one v one do I say "oh crap", or "yummy lunch".
I wait until the merge to see how the pilot reacts. I say either "this guy is good"... or "this guy is dead".
AKDejaVu
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My point is that if you don't want to fight and play 'opportunistically' as Ypslsion does, he obviously doesn't get in furballs or anything like that. If you wan't to do that fine, but to me thats not fun.
You won't find me flying a P51 anytime soon for 2 reasons,
1. Its American
2. Its not challenging
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Man, I must look like a New York Strip with sautede mushrooms and a shrimp cocktail to HT.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Like I said...talk is cheap.
Im Out!
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Nath,
Your words mean nothing.
Prove it.
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Umm... If I flew a P51 I could get a 100/0 KD If I wanted to... maybe more. i'd like to see how good ypislon does in an A8.
I guess that "If I wanted to" is the catch all. You really only have been killed because you wanted to allow yourself to be killed.
What I simply can't understand... if the 51 is so uber (and not the pilot)... then why aren't there more people with similar scores flying this plane? Here's an idea... ITS BECAUSE IT IS NOT THE PLANE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE KILL STREAK!!! ITS THE PILOT
I don't know ypsilon at all. I've never faught against him that I know of. I do know that a 100 kill streak in ANY aircraft is incredible. If you fail to realize that then you are being obtuse.
If you think you could do it if you flew that aircraft then I simply say "PROVE IT!"
AKDejaVu
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Guys, this is a very interesting discussion, but the question remains: Are there uber planes or simply uber pilots? To my mind at least, an uber plane is one that permits an inferior pilot to beat a superior pilot on a regular basis.
My contention is that no such plane exists in the AH arena.
Let's pick 10 guys (superior pilots.) No selection procedure is perfect, but it doesn't have to be -- we just have to make sure we have some really excellent guys in the group.
Forget the 202 stuff; forget the 10 top guys versus 10 average guys. Instead, let's pit the 10 guys against each other in a series of 1 vs. 1: Each guy will fight the other 9 in each of the 3 uber rides. I suspect we can't even agree on the uber rides, but the P47/190A5/109-g10 are the usual sources of bickering.
This involves 135 fights (I think that's right.) Pilot 1 will fight pilot 2 in a 109, 190 and a p47.
At the end of session, let's add up the scores (wins versus losses.) I'll bet you there will be one or two (possibly more) guys
who lose at most 2 fights out of the 27 fights that each guy has.
What does this prove? Well,it will prove we have guys that will win regardless of the aircraft they fly. Will it prove they are superior pilots? Yeah, but damnit, that's not the point! The point is there are no uber planes, at least to the extent that the plane outweighs pilot skill.
AKcurly
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Egos and Spedos..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Musta been the other Yippie I saw mixing it up in those furballs sorry my mistake ..ya right.
nath stfu-gdmf (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Nath..
Ice is an oldtimer, been flyin since early AW DOS days.
Glad to see ya still around Ice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out.......
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Looks like nothin has changed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Dog!
Good to see ya here...its been awhile (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cyas at the dance!
Im Out!
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I think it is the pilot.
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Ummmm, a little trouble with my numbers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Mathman, why didn't you catch this? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If we used 10 pilots and 3 planes, it would be C(10,2) * 3 * 3 or 405 fights. That's too many freaking fights unless we made all the participants wear lipstick. Hell, it would just be Torque and SeaWulfe then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If we used 6 pilots and 3 planes, it would be C(6,2)*3*3 or 135 fights; 5 pilots, 3 planes, 90 fights & etc.
AKcurly
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NATH
...the way you flew the 51 the other night im not so sure you could get a 100/0 KD... on the other hand if ou flew a a8 or a 202 like you did against me the other night you might could do it.
RWY
P.S. was great duels im looking forward to it again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think the only true test, would be for torque to be forced to fly nothing but the 202 for the intire next tour.
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bs... we only dueled 1 time in P51.
"I have no idea how you just did that!" -RWY
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-26-2000).]