Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on February 24, 2004, 07:36:06 PM
-
The litany of weapons systems that Kerry opposed included conventional as well as nuclear equipment: the B-1 bomber, the B-2, the F-15, the F-14A, the F-14D, the AH-64 Apache helicopter, the AV-8B Harrier jet, the Patriot missile, the Aegis air-defense cruiser and the Trident missile. And he sought to reduce procurement of the M1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, the Tomahawk cruise missile and the F-16 jet.
Source: Washington Post
All I will comment on is this: If Kerry gets elected, don't fly commercial and move out of the large cities.
-
but--but--but rip , he's---he's ---he's a WAR HERO, he would not let down his--his--his BAND OF BROTHERS
-
This just in... the F14A first flew in 1971. First prototype AH-64 flew in 1975. AV-8B.. 1981. F-15.. 1972. F-16... 1975
John Kerry didn't get to the Senate until 1984.
I bet he was around when Gore created the internet also.
-
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This just in... the F14A first flew in 1971. First prototype AH-64 flew in 1975. AV-8B.. 1981. F-15.. 1972. F-16... 1975
John Kerry didn't get to the Senate until 1984.
I bet he was around when Gore created the internet also.
Did we only purchase the original versions of all these platforms, or did maybe upgraded versions come before the senate after the original production runs?
-
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This just in... the F14A first flew in 1971. First prototype AH-64 flew in 1975. AV-8B.. 1981. F-15.. 1972. F-16... 1975
John Kerry didn't get to the Senate until 1984.
I bet he was around when Gore created the internet also.
This just in...upgrades to said aircraft go through the senate.
This just in {It wouldn't surprise me if its incorrect reporting, after all, its the very-liberally slanted Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63124-2004Feb22.html}
-
well if true he was right on downing any support for the Bradley
-
Bush has already killed 2 weopons programs, and your not whineing about him?
Like i said, when bush kills military pork spending you ignore or praise it. When its a democrat they are supporting terrorism.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
This just in...upgrades to said aircraft go through the senate.
This just in {It wouldn't surprise me if its incorrect reporting, after all, its the very-liberally slanted Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63124-2004Feb22.html}
The quote is misleading... "litany of weapons systems opposed..."
It got my attention simply because it named variants... F-14A and F-14D (but not F-14B)... AV-8B... etc... no mention of F/A-18A thru F/A-18D or the newer F/A-18E/F...
I'd have to do some digging to see what the "major" upgrades were (your note, not the journalist's), but I got the impression from the list that this was mainly ACAT-1 programs.
shoddy journalism, imho.
-
Originally posted by pugg666
well if true he was right on downing any support for the Bradley
It never ceases to amaze me how Canadians who have a total military of 60,000, and is totally bankrupt...broke...kaput...fe el the need to give their 2 cents on military spending in the U.S.
-
So you feel the bradley was a good choice then?
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
It never ceases to amaze me how Canadians who have a total military of 60,000, and is totally bankrupt...broke...kaput...fe el the need to give their 2 cents on military spending in the U.S.
Hey guess what our government and military are broke as well! Looks like somebody dosnt understand what deficiet spending really means!
-
pugg666
What exactly do you think is wrong with the Bradley?
-
Its not big enough to carry enough troops(which it was designed for) and its gun is not large enough to engage large armor, same can be said about its armor plateing( which used to fold under rpg hits, not sure if they fixed that)
-
deficit spending does not mean you are broke,(not yet anyway),
deficit spending means you pay tomorrow for what you buy today.
trivia.
'i will glady pay you tuesday for a hamburger today', who said that? hint, friend of popeye.
-
what was it, wimpy or something to that effect.
-
Gto,
The fire control is exellent, protection is adequate, and I'm sure it's reliable.
But it just doesn't have the right gun for the job, the bush master is great for infantry in the open and soft skinned vehicles. It needs something in the range of 75-105MM to give infantry good support. It is billed as an infantry fighting vehicle is it not?
I hate to say it (really I do) but the soviets got it right with the BMP-3. 100MM canon provides a lot better close support to infantry.
As it is now you have an overpriced M113 that has a better gun but can carry what? Half a squad?
-
Ok I can see that. Don't almost all the western infantry fighting vehicles have a small bore cannon like the bradley?
I thought you where going to come back with something like frog did, "the gun cant take out tanks"
Duh, it was not meant to, that's what the Tow missles and the M1 tank are for. lol.
Interesting point on the main gun as a not great support weapon for infantry though.
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Ok I can see that. Don't almost all the western infantry fighting vehicles have a small bore cannon like the bradley?
I thought you where going to come back with something like frog did, "the gun cant take out tanks"
Duh, it was not meant to, that's what the Tow missles and the M1 tank are for. lol.
Interesting point on the main gun as a not great support weapon for infantry though.
You do realize that the bradley started out as what the striker is now. So 30 years later we are finally getting what the military asked for when they asked for the bradley.
-
Ah hem....the Bradley does what it was meant to do. The 25mm IS adequate for infantry support and has been proven many times. It, however, was not designed to engage main battle tanks, yes thats what the TOW is designed to do. The BMP 3 is a death trap, as is all the BMP models. Whomever designed them was a major sadist. I ghave never been in a more user unfriendly vehicle then the BMP.The current upgrades to the brad were designed to overcome identified shortcomings in its early production run and they do just that. The M2/M3A2 are great vehicles and the next generation of brad will put the bar up even higher.
One side note: The 25mm had many MBT kills in Desert Storm shooting sabot rounds.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Source: Washington Post
All I will comment on is this: If Kerry gets elected, don't fly commercial and move out of the large cities.
Sheesh..
Try comparing oranges to oranges.... how many military weapon systems did Bush support or veto while he was Governor or before that when he was a CEO of a company he lead into bankruptcy?
NONE.... not a very good record on defense wouldn't you say?
At least Kerry was in congress doing something for his country.
At least Kerry was brave enough to go to Vietnam and take a few bullets for the US of A... mean while pissy pants Bush was snorting coke and passing on his medical exams.
Congress Judical committee brought up rule changes for the special prosecutor today... was live on CSPAN radio.
Bush ain't going to white wash that CIA operative leak - someone is going to jail.. and if it leads to the President... he's going to be impeached.... yes... those words were said.. even by a several Republicans....
Congress is pissed, they were lied to.
Any one who reveals national security secrets for political gains is a traitor - not moral, not patriotic, not ethical....
There's someone working for Bush right now that has committed a felony and who is a traitor to this country- Bush is willing to deny American citizens their constitutional rights in order to fight terrorism...yet he's harboring a felon?
-
Finrod
What is the next bradley upgrade?
-
A 25mm SABOT round? Do you have links? I've never heard of such a thing........
-
LOL, okay guys, the 25mm sabot is the M997 Armor Piercing Spin Stabilized Discarding Sabot. The brad shoots 2 kinds of rounds from the 25mm as of now, the sabot for armor targets and HEI round (High Explosive Incendarary) for use against soft targets like troops and wheeled vehicles. The next upgrade was published in Janes not that long ago, involves large scale changes to the ballistic computer and laser range finding capabilities as well as improved anti-armor and improved crew survivability. Us guys in the field haven't seen the new one yet but I for one am excited about it. I can't say much more about it guys, I hope the avatar explains why, but be assured your troopers in the field got some good equipment. It didn't all start out that way, but we fix what we find. :)
-
What the Republicans are banking on is the ignorance of the average American voter. They don't mention that there are multiple votes on each weapons system. Voting against a funding measure does not mean that the same measure wasn't later passed after the pork was trimmed or defects fixed. But they don't want to confuse you poor ignorant voters with FACTS.
-
Finrod, re read my post please.
The role of the Bradley is to....
A.Safely transport Infantry to critical locations on the battlefield.
B.Provide fire support to cover their dismounted operations, and
C.Destroy enemy tanks and other vehicles that may threaten the Infantry it carries.
It accomplishes only part of A (need more bradleys than M113's due to only being able 6 troops), it does however have a lot more protection than an M113
B. now this is my main concern, like I said in my last post, the bushmaster is good against infantry in the open and light vehicle ( ya I guess it could penetrate something like a T-62 from the rear), It can hardly deal with troops in say a concrete building like a 100MM HE/HEAT could. Let's take it in the context of what we're all familiar with, WWII ( :D ) what half track would you rather have supporting you, an m3 with a single .50 Cal, or say a Sd.Kfz.251/9 (7.5cm) with a nice short barreled 75MM?
It covers C very well, the TOW missile is an excellent weapon.
oh and I've never had the pleasure/displeasure of sitting in a BMP-3 , so I wouldn't know, but on paper it seems like it's a better concept.
-
ahh thanks.. I had never seen that before. Its the M910 and the M919... LoL lil SABOT rds just like 120mm rds of the m1.. lol
-
rpm: Read it, was part of it, we fixed it. I understand your concern though, I was concerned as well 20 years ago.
pug: Yep....and no. It does A just fine, it does B too, I'll put a TOW round into a bunker in a heart beat, but the gun would be undersized if you run out of TOW rounds, thats true. If I do run into this situation, its time to yell for the big boys or let the grunts do the job.
"On paper" is what had us so scared during the 80s. On paper the soviet equipment looked just as good as ours. But Desert Storm and proceeding conflicts proved otherwise. I have had the displeasure... believe me bro...you ain't missed nothing. I still remember being handed what looked like a flak vest for my first ride in a BMP. It wasn't a flak vest, it was a padded vest to protect your ribs and kidneys from the ride, it was standard soviet issue. I use that story when I talk to young soldiers who complain about US Army vehicles. The best thing about the BMP, or "bimp" as we call it, is its very low height. Very hard target to spot at times.
But guys, the brad is a fine vehicle, it does what we need it to do. If you want to get excited in a good way, look at the new Advanced Gun System. Its a quickly deployed tank. Light, spooky fast, and absolutely lethal in all environments. Unfortunetly, I'll be retired before we get it.:(
-
Exactly Fin. My point is if they had not forced the changes by voting against it, you would be stuck with the original POS version.
-
Thats very true RPM, the stink raised resulted in a better vehicle. For which I am grateful.
-
Advanced Gun System
Would this by chance be the stryker?
I did a search for Advanced Gun System and all it gave me was the project for the naval gun. If you have a name I could use instead, it would be appreciated.
And, I'm just saying that you guys should up gun it, it will be a lot more versatile IMO.
-
Originally posted by Finrod
Thats very true RPM, the stink raised resulted in a better vehicle. For which I am grateful.
Damn you, John Kerry! You forced a better weapon on the military! Off with his head!:D
-
Thats what they are calling it right now, at least thats what Army Times says its called. I think it might be a Stryker mod, 6 wheels, 105mm main gun, 3 man crew, full enviromentals and very advanced ballistic computer.The idea is basically to build a light tank for quick deployment, M1A2 is the worlds best but the blasted thing is very very heavy. If the new vehicle does what they say...it will easily be the class of the field in armor vehicles. Like I said though, I will be long gone by then.
-
Guys, this argument isn't goin Rips way, cut it out.
-
Originally posted by Ping
Guys, this argument isn't goin Rips way, cut it out.
??
-
Yeah, cmon! We're supposed to be bashing kerry here.
-
You do realize that it was just one military spending bill that he voted against that had some funding to all those items on the list. He voted against 1 pork barrell bill in '91.
-
Heya GS
All those gv's you posted suffer the same problem as the Brad..25-30MM auto cannons (except the CV90 with 40MM option)
the Merkava Mk. 4 seems to be the best choice of the bunch, 8 troops and a 120MM. I always thought it was a pure tank, not a troops carrier.
I think Finrods main problem with the BMP is the rough ride.
-
Sorry I meant in the fire support role GS. the 120 on the Merkava and the 100 on the BMP make quite a diference IMO.
BTW haven't seen you online lately.
-
Ooops, sorry been away for a few days and just now saw the thread. The BMP 3 is small inside, I mean really small. The average American GI is going to have a very difficult time getting in it and add a full ruck sack and assorted weapons and the thing is almosy unusuable for the US. The russian designers were not big on safety for the vehicle's interior, there are a few hundred "head bangers" as GI's call them, inside all the BMP models. The armor is thin and sustained .50 cal fire will chew one up. The 25mm on the brad eats BMPs for breakfast. The engine is model sensitive, what I mean is the BMP 1 had a simple design with low maintenance problems, the BMP 3 has a hybrid turbine engine that has this annoying habit of blowing engine oil through the exhaust right into the vehicle commander's face and creating a real nice cloud of smoke for the bad guys to see. Oh yeah the brad weighs in at 34 tons combat loaded. If I was to say the brad had any one problem...it would be size. The brad is tall, 8" taller then an M60A3 MBT. Thats why many of the Army's scout units switch to the hummer for recon work and forsaked the comfort of the 25mm gun. Allot of our discusion is academic, the new and changing battlefield climate has forced us (the US military) to totally relook how we fight, with a strong emphasis on light, fast, lethal and most importantly portable or easily deployable. This is a great discusion, as taxpayers, you have a right to know what your tax dollars are buying. :)
-
I think the current Pentagon administration is ruling nothing out when it comes to new vehicles and designs. The merkava has allot of fans, I've never been in one, so no opinion here. I haven't seen the CV90 except pictures in mags like Armour Magazine, it has some impressive stats.:D
-
Not sure I remember correctly now, but isnt the 40mm option for the CV90 only for the anti-air variant?
(Didnt know Norway bought the CV90, nice)
-
Originally posted by rpm371
What the Republicans are banking on is the ignorance of the average American voter. They don't mention that there are multiple votes on each weapons system. Voting against a funding measure does not mean that the same measure wasn't later passed after the pork was trimmed or defects fixed. But they don't want to confuse you poor ignorant voters with FACTS.
This crap again. If you thgink this is such an obvious and good defense for Kerry then why isnt his team spinning it that way... So far the best they have come up with is that he was youndg and misinformed when he voted to cancel all those weapons.
Read your post above. Going by that one could say Trent Lott is a great champion of black civil rights because he voted against so many laws as they were not perfect, just yet....
Face it rpm, kerry is a left wing extremist and his voting record proves it. Stand by your candidate, be proud of his voting record, dont make excuses for it..
-
wow awesome pic there GS. That's one hell of a muzzle flash!
-
Unfortunately no...never got a chance to get to Norway or Sweden. Dang infantry guys get all the good assignments. :mad:
-
Vid doesn't work GS.
-
I have no doubt that Russia would beat any army in the world if wars were fought in staged sales videos under controlled conditions... :rolleyes: