Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Udie on August 24, 2000, 12:41:00 PM
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This Sunday's Snapshot will run with a twist. The CM (me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) will ride in a B17 as a gunner, that B17 will be the Memphis Belle and MUST survive the mission. The mission starts at 4:00pm est Sunday 8-7-00.
Come and join us it should be fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Here's the write
up.http://www.ropescourse.org/memphis.htm
Udie
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Ugh, I'm gonna have to keel all the buffs till I find the 'special one?' Oh well... somebodies gotta do it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
Aces High Scenario Corps
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Saweet! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This bomber and her crew logged more than 20,000 combat miles & dropped more than 60 tons of bombs. In 25 missions they had to replace 9 engines, both wings, main gear, & two tails in England. And yet,no casualties on this B-17!
It also accounted for 8 enemy fighters shot down 5 more damaged,and a probably 12 more damaged or shot down.
The Belle kicked some serious Nazi butt! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I fell in love with the B17 after I saw the Movie Memphis Belle. Ever since I have been in AH, I have tried to land a B17 with 1 engine and only one wheel down and get it all on tape. I almost did it a few weeks ago but I got my oscar shot off when a CHog vulched me as I was landing my HEAVY damaged plane.
Anyway Udie do I have to sign up or anything? I would really like to be apart of this.
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Don't mention that 1300 B17s were lost though right? 36 Veirmot to Dhal alone.
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
Aces High Scenario Corps
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-24-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-24-2000).]
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Yep over 1300 bombers were lost, along with many crew members.
I think for a period the 8th Airforce had about 80% casualties fighting the Nazis. Alone, without fighter support, those American kids fought off the best the Krauts had, with only a few .50 cal machine guns (and a lot of guts) against heavily gunned waves of Nazi fighters. You want underdogs to cheer for? Man those Lancaster and B-17 crews were out gunned, outnumbered, and over enemy territory from the minute they left English shores. And they delivered the goods, hammered the Nazi war machine, and killed those 190 and 109 pilots in front of thier girl friends. Man thats what I call a Hero.
Thousand of Americans died in the B17s, but she was still a great tough bird.
And thousands of Brits and Canadians died in their Lancasters. But in the end we pounded those Nazi slimeballs into the dirt. With our British and Canadian buddies we blasted thier goose stepping LuftWaffe from the skys, and and with the Russians great army, kicked the SS and Vermacht butts all the way back to Berlin.
Like it or not, the Memphis Belle kicked butt at a time when an average B-17 made about 8 missions. They were great airmen flying a great bird.
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+:
Yep over 1300 bombers were lost, along with many crew members.
I think for a period the 8th Airforce had about 80% casualties fighting the Nazis. Alone, without fighter support, those American kids fought off the best the Krauts had, with only a few .50 cal machine guns (and a lot of guts) against heavily gunned waves of Nazi fighters. You want underdogs to cheer for? Man those Lancaster and B-17 crews were out gunned, outnumbered, and over enemy territory from the minute they left English shores. And they delivered the goods, hammered the Nazi war machine, and killed those 190 and 109 pilots in front of thier girl friends. Man thats what I call a Hero.
Thousand of Americans died in the B17s, but she was still a great tough bird.
And thousands of Brits and Canadians died in their Lancasters. But in the end we pounded those Nazi slimeballs into the dirt. With our British and Canadian buddies we blasted thier goose stepping LuftWaffe from the skys, and and with the Russians great army, kicked the SS and Vermacht butts all the way back to Berlin.
Like it or not, the Memphis Belle kicked butt at a time when an average B-17 made about 8 missions. They were great airmen flying a great bird.
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-25-2000).]
*cough* B-24 crews (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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A book for Nath: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853673838/o/qid=967229187 /sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-5837747-8632859 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853673838/o/qid=967229187/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-5837747-8632859)
(http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/net3/fro.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-25-2000).]
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lol fear the 2/5 stars it got!!
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, and killed those 190 and 109 pilots in front of thier girl friends
With our British and Canadian buddies we blasted thier goose stepping LuftWaffe from the skys, and and with the Russians great army, kicked the SS and Vermacht butts all the way back to Berlin.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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[edit]
Hmmmm....seems that I may have inadvertently stepped into an ongoing argument here.
I'll leave you guys to it.
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
[This message has been edited by vadr (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Nath I know, it looks like a crappy book. I just liked the title. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Unless I'm mistaken, AKFokerFoder+ was frusterated by yet another blantantly pro-German post by Nath-BDP being inserted out of context into a discussion and responded with an exaggerated and inflametory post.
Nath-BDP, you may not see your post as a hostile, pro-German post, but given the context it was. It comes across as a snide "Yeah, you had good bombers <smirk>, we killed 1300 of them even though we were outnumbered and it just goes to show how great the Luftwaffe was" type of statement. The reason that it comes across like that is because of what people were talking about above that. They were discussing what these boys endured, what they managed to work through. Not every thread needs a reminder of how great the Luftwaffe was. We all know what the odds against them were, but there were times when the odds against the Allies were horrible too. You are known to be pro-German here and anything you post is going to be interpeted in that light, so if you mean it differently you'll have to be more verbose to get your true meaning across.
I have to back AKFokerFoder+ on this one. I'm tired of hearing how great the Luftwaffe was, indirectly or not, in nearly every thread. The boys in the USAAF and RAF deserve just as much praise (and more so because they weren't backing a meglomanical dictator).
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 08-25-2000).]
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The Belle flew from 7 Nov 42, to the 19 May 43. Here is some exerpts from her logs. On some missions she was attacked by 50 to 200 fighters. Only two missions mention that they had escorts. Those allied bomber groups in 42-43 were hung out to dry, and yet they did more than their share. They may not be romantic lone wolf fighter pilots, but they were heros in their own right in any mans book.
http://www.memphisbelle.com/bulletinboard.html (http://www.memphisbelle.com/bulletinboard.html)
I love this log entry where the 91st sent the Nazis a Christmas present, 25 of their boys got to go home for Christmas, in body bags! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"December 20th, 1942 - The air field at Romilly sur Seine, France
German fighters attacked after the formation passed Paris. A good run with the bombs falling mainly in the hangar and dispersal areas. 91st claimed 25 enemy planes. Lost 2 B-17s."
So much for the mythical-invincible LuftWaffe. If you really wanna see some stats where the LW got their nuts nailed to a hangar door, check out the stats on the LW vs the grossly outnumbered RAF in the Battle of Britian (what a class group those Spit n Hurricane pilots).
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-25-2000).]
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OK, I'm sorry, I really am going to stay out of this post after this, because it's now obvious that both sides have a history.
I just can't let this go however.
Fokerfoder, buddy, a lot of the stuff you are spitting out here is just plain wrong, and I've the numbers to prove it to you.
I've no doubt that the 91st claimed 25 fighters that day, but bomber gunners were even worse about overclaiming than fighter pilots (for obvious reasons).
1 example: on the first Schweinfurt Raid (Aug '43), 8th AF Bomber gunners claimed something on the order of 200 kills for the day.
Actual Luftwaffe losses: 25
Memphis Belle is a great movie, but as history, it pretty much sucks.
If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion about this, I'll happily accommodate you, either here or via E-mail. I'm not trying to slam you personally, I just feel the need to counter some of your more inaccurate statements with hard facts.
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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Nah you're the one whos wrong Karnak, I'm sick of hearing fokerfooders bs about comparing nazis with lw.
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haha, the BoB was a war of attrition, before the bob even started the Germans knew that it would be a war of attrition with Britain, and it was a war the British couldn't win had the Germans not fcked up.
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What is the matter? Haven't read your history books? Haven't talked to WW2 vets?
If you look like a duck and walk like a duck and talk like a duck and think like a duck and smell like a duck, well you are probably a duck.
If you look like a Nazi, and goose step like a Nazi, and talk like a Nazi, and thiink like a Nazi, well you are probably a Nazi.
The LuftWaffe Planes had Nazi Pilots, a Nazi swatika, and swore alegience too Hilter and the Nazi party. If that don't make them Nazis what does?
The LuftWaffe was the Air Arm of the Nazi warmachine, and killed thousands of American boys. That is fact. Deal with it.
Don't tell me the LW weren't Nazis, go down to a Veterans cemetery in Europe and tell that to the dead Allied airmen. They'd love to hear how great the LuftWaffe was and that they were spit.
[This message has been edited by AKFokerFoder+ (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Even when the U.S. escorted bombers, they (the fighter escorts) were usually out numbered by the luftwaffe.
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The main thing I see here in this thread is people reacting to a typical teenager's fantasy mentality.
Nath will grow up some day, and learn that life is not all about fantasy. He will learn to respect the memory of those who died so he can sit on this board like a blathering idiot and spout off nonsense after nonsense.
The German aircraft were supperb examples of excellent engineering built by mostly enslaved people who were so enslaved because their beleifs were different than a maniac dictator.
I beleive there were a lot of German pilots who were far from being Nazis, but it doesn't change the fact that they were the enemy in a global conflict.
War is a horrible event. The inhumanity wrought by all parties involved in it is something we all tend to forget or are too young to be aware of.
I reccomend that when youngsters like Nath make the brash statements they do and show their lack of maturity and knowledge of life that we who have been around a while sit back and see it for what it is worth...nothing.
MarkAT
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OK, well that settles that. I'll be ignoring fokerfoder from now on.
Grow up Son.
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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Try reading the entire thread please... if you're so intelligent. buttererFodder's bs comments about calling LW Nazis is pissing me off as me saying that 1300 b17s were lost is pissing you off.
If you read history you'll most likely find that most LW pilots didn't like the state their country was in and disliked their leadership (Hartmann, Galland, Hermann, I could go on...) But weren't going to sit back and let people bomb their famlies and cities.
I got an idea, lets call all VVS pilots commies from now on too, ok, buttererFadder? Since the USSR killed more innocent people than Nazi Germany.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Probably alot like you in some ways once. A smart kid with a slightly different focus, and turned out a pretty cool guy.
Sorry nath, I was answering your question "Who is Mark Luper", before you edited.
[This message has been edited by Camel (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Didn't see the MarkAT at the end of the post, figured he was another person that doesn't play AH but is a BBS jockey.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-25-2000).]
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Antartica's only fighter pilot <----
I fight only for the penguins, well ever since they over threw the polar bears and walrus political parties.
- Jig, ARAF
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OK, well that settles that. I'll be ignoring fokerfoder from now on.
Grow up Son.
Son? Hell I was a combat veteran by the time I was 20, and that was 31 years ago. I am a Disabled American Veteran (10%, combat realted) so dry the starting tear, probably laughter from dudes like you.
Hell I'll be ignoring this whole BS BBS.
Have a good'un and sleep safe because a whole bunch of american kids died before they could come back and see this kind of BS. Maybe they were the lucky ones.
I'm out of here...
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Jig:
The North will defeat the evil cotton, err feather growing South and fre the enslaved penguins!
Long live Generalissimo StSanta! Death to the Southern tyrants!
<sidenote: American losses during WWII were comparatively light. Poland lost more than twice the amount of soldier the US did. The UK lost about 100 000 more. The USSR millions more.
In a good month of firebombing, the USAF would kill more German civilians than they'd lose men in total in the war. In a good day, they'd kill more civilians than they lost aircrew over the entire war.
Am I to consider the USAF evil? Hell no. Do I understand why German fighter pilots kept coming up to defend their cities, and slow the allied air attacks? Aye.
An ugly war made even uglier by the Good Side adopting the same brutal tactics as the Bad Side, but on a larger scale and with the knowledge that it won't do what the planners want it to.
Heh, hell, Denmark almost lost more civilians to aerial bombardment than the US.
I think evidence suggests that there were German fighter pilots flying German airplanes who were military men first and considered Hitler a maniac. Other evidence say that them being shot out of the sky was a good thing, as it accelerated the allied conquest of Germany.
No disrespect for my American friends, but the firebombings of civilian cities are sort of rooted in two generations of Europeans. I have German relatives, and they've relayed either personal stories or stories told by their parents about it. Their leader was totally psychopathic, but I'm not sure that justifies what I've heard.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I don't even know why threads spin into this bashing kind of nonsense. I find it shows a lack of maturity, unless when it is sometimes used in a humorous tone that draws another smart remark back. Some people just won't take the time to study history, and it is just really sad. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the past.
I'm no Nazi supporter, but the Luftwaffe was a damned fine airforce, and most of the men that flew these planes did it for their country and for the future of their families, not for their leader.
If anyone takes the time to study history, problems in Europe can be traced right back to WW1. Germany was very discontent with the treaty it was forced to sign after the Kaiser abdicated his throne and Germany surrendered unconditionally. War reparations (forced upon Germany as war guilt by the Allies, except USA which signed a separate treaty with Germany), land siezures and other acts almost steered Germany down the path it took during the 1930's. When thinking about why people would do the things they do it is VERY IMPORTANT to understand the average German citizen's frame of mind during post WW1. With an economy almost strangled by the allied blockade of Germany (which still continued for some time after Germany surrendered), and later a world wide depression, it is almost impossible to imagine how Germans viewed the outside world simply through the treatment it was getting. The Allies tried to pin WW1 on the Germans, saying they started it, they lost, they'll pay, when in truth it was started by the assisnation of the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand of Serbia.
No one really sees the war through Germany's eyes in WW2 because it is widely taught that Germany (the whole friggin country) during this time was EVIL, even though it was really only one man and how he implicated his policies. Germany was rebuilt on the sweat and toil of the common German citizen, who worked in the factory, worked in the mine, served in its armed forces, and there is no EVIL in that. They were doing just what we were doing in the United States, working, working and working...........Germany was a very nationalistic country, and the Germans loved their country just as much as we love ours, and were prepared to defend it at any cost.
So to all of you who shoot their mouth off at a whim, thinking they know all that cause they got the final jeapordy question right last night, do some research, think out your post, and then type it and I think you will get a lot more pleasent results.
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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat? Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+:
If you look like a duck and walk like a duck and talk like a duck and think like a duck and smell like a duck, well you are probably a duck.
If you look like a Nazi, and goose step like a Nazi, and talk like a Nazi, and thiink like a Nazi, well you are probably a Nazi.
The LuftWaffe Planes had Nazi Pilots, a Nazi swatika, and swore alegience too Hilter and the Nazi party. If that don't make them Nazis what does?
If you look like an ignorant, sound like an ignorant, yell like an ignorant, think like an ignorant, talk as an ignorant, than YOU ARE AN IGNORANT.
I dont mind you are a veteran or not. THat doesnt make you a saint, sir. That only makes you a patriot in your country, but doesnt allow you to call germans nazis on the more than dubious ground that they had to defend their fatherland for aerial bombing.
Hell yes I'm sure you'd have run away and not fought to defend your home city, your mother, your sisters and your girlfriend from the massive cruel bombing your city was suffering...no you'd say "we deserve this, my mom deserves to die and so my sisters,because a monster that I never chose to guide my country is there nonetheless".
AKFF, you are FULL of toejam. Up to the head.
You know what is a nazi?...a nazi is he who respects only his opinion regardless of any other thing. A nazi is he who feels "better" than the rest of the humankind, only for being of a race or a (COUGH) country. A nazi is he who classifies the people in general (so if England has a laborist government then ALL BRITISH ARE LABORISTS? LOL)...
An a nazi is he who would use the violence to state his opinions. There is hidden violence in yours, you are proud that a lot of young german people died in WWII, quoting your words,"in front of their girfriends".
AKFF...WHO is a nazi?...look at the mirror and you'll see a person who acts like one. So think before you really start to be one.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Jig:
The North will defeat the evil cotton, err feather growing South and fre the enslaved penguins!
Long live Generalissimo StSanta! Death to the Southern tyrants!
<sidenote: American losses during WWII were comparatively light. Poland lost more than twice the amount of soldier the US did. The UK lost about 100 000 more. The USSR millions more.
In a good month of firebombing, the USAF would kill more German civilians than they'd lose men in total in the war. In a good day, they'd kill more civilians than they lost aircrew over the entire war.
Am I to consider the USAF evil? Hell no. Do I understand why German fighter pilots kept coming up to defend their cities, and slow the allied air attacks? Aye.
An ugly war made even uglier by the Good Side adopting the same brutal tactics as the Bad Side, but on a larger scale and with the knowledge that it won't do what the planners want it to.
Heh, hell, Denmark almost lost more civilians to aerial bombardment than the US.
I think evidence suggests that there were German fighter pilots flying German airplanes who were military men first and considered Hitler a maniac. Other evidence say that them being shot out of the sky was a good thing, as it accelerated the allied conquest of Germany.
No disrespect for my American friends, but the firebombings of civilian cities are sort of rooted in two generations of Europeans. I have German relatives, and they've relayed either personal stories or stories told by their parents about it. Their leader was totally psychopathic, but I'm not sure that justifies what I've heard.
I have only one problem. I have to fly around my home country or my plane will melt.
Only airforce I know with "re-icers" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bah I am an American capitalist scum sucking pig dog with more guns then I can count on two hands (and toes)
Bill Clinton is my hero. I wish I could women like he can. Gore, along with Jeff Gordon are powered by a mix of pepsi cans and energizer batteries. Bush and I are both from Texas so we are probably related somewhere in our trees. I've never seen snow and been around some ice, perhaps once. 100% humdidity sucks. My neighbor looped a B-17. And then augered into a hill. And then rammed a Fw 190 the next day. Or it might of been a sea gull. He forgets.
oh yeah...
I are dweeb.
- Jig
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<tnup>
Don't miss this scenario and tell yer friends.
Love my sig, Foker.
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
Aces High Scenario Corps
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-26-2000).]
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It's 4th and long...
Blue 42...
Blue 42...
Hut.. Hut..
Udie snaps back to Nath for the punt
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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hi
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/Flak_Happy2.jpg)
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 08-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 08-27-2000).]
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StSanta said:
<sidenote: American losses during WWII were comparatively light. Poland lost more than twice the amount of soldier the US did. The UK lost about 100 000 more. The USSR millions more.
"Comparatively light". Let's ponder that unfortunate phrase again...
Try to explain that to my mother, whose father was killed in the Battle of the Bulge, one week before she was born. Try to exlplain that to my grandmother, who hasn't been the same ever since her husband was killed in some forest in Luxembourg, while she was nearing the birth of their first child.
Let's get one thing straight: there's a human side to all the statistics being bandied about. Please don't diminish the sacrifice of so many by using phrases like "comparatively light".
So far, I think Mark Luper has shown the level of maturity needed to discuss WW2, or any war, for that matter.
Those that use blanket statements like calling every German a "Nazi", are wrong. Not every German was a member of the Nazi party, although many millions were. And since service in the armed forces was mandatory for German youth, they became members of the Nazi party by default, since they had to swear an allegience to Hitler upon joining their respective branch.
That said, you must realize too that there were many, many millions of Germans that were ardent Nazi's, civilians and military. One wonders how many of the loyal, flag-waving Nazi's of 1939 have changed their tune and now say "We were Germans, but never Nazi's." Let's face it, if you became aware that your political party murdered millions of people, would you admit that you were a loyal member of that party during that period of time?
I have nothing against people showing respect for and honoring those who fought on each side. The real lesson that we should all be learning, however, is that World War Two was the most ghastly, horrible catastrophe to inflict mankind. And World War One is a close second.
Nath, I respect your right to give your opinions here, but you are mistaken if you don't believe that there were Nazi's in the LW. I've also read some of your previous threads, and frankly, you have my pity. You are young and full of enthusiasm for war, and that's why there will always be war. The politicians and generals have counted on people like you to fight their wars for them. Young men read exploits of past veterans, and wish to live the glories of their heroes. War is very glamorous, until you find yourself in the middle of it, with your own life and property at risk.
Mattibaby80, interesting post. But I beg to differ on the cause of World War One. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand was but the spark that ignited the powderkeg which Europe was sitting on for the past ten years before it. If anything, the early death of Kaiser Wilhelm's father, Frederick, was the beginning of the end of the peaceful Europe of the middle and late 1800's. For if Frederick, the peace-loving Kaiser, hadn't died of throat cancer in 1887 after being on the throne for only nine months, his son Wilhelm wouldn't have come to power until much later. A very interesting book by Robert K. Massie, "Dreadnought", details the relationship between Germany and England at the close of the nineteenth century, and follows events leading up to the beginning of WW1. Fascinating reading if you're interested in reading about the cause of WW1 and WW2 in this century.
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Nath, I respect your right to give your opinions here, but you are mistaken if you don't believe that there were Nazi's in the LW. I've also read some of your previous threads, and frankly, you have my pity. You are young and full of enthusiasm for war, and that's why there will always be war. The politicians and generals have counted on people like you to fight their wars for them. Young men read exploits of past veterans, and wish to live the glories of their heroes. War is very glamorous, until you find yourself in the middle of it, with your own life and property at risk.
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE RESPONDING TO MY POSTS, TY, DRIVE THROUGH.
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PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE RESPONDING TO MY POSTS, TY, DRIVE THROUGH.
I did read your entire thread. Please don't defend yourself by accusing me of not being able to read.
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Well gee, looks like ya missed sumthin.
Try reading the entire thread please... if you're so intelligent. buttererFodder's bs comments about calling LW Nazis is pissing me off as me saying that 1300 b17s were lost is pissing you off.
If you read history you'll most likely find that most LW pilots didn't like the state their country was in and disliked their leadership (Hartmann, Galland, Hermann, I could go on...) But weren't going to sit back and let people bomb their famlies and cities.
I got an idea, lets call all VVS pilots commies from now on too, ok, buttererFadder? Since the USSR killed more innocent people than Nazi Germany.
One last thing, if you're referring to that "Poll" thread about me being enthusaistic about war, and that is your only retort, that poll was meant as fantasy, not actually WANTING to go back into time.
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
Aces High Scenario Corps
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-28-2000).]
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Nath, I just read the part of your thread(again) that you think I missed(wrong). I'll quote only the part I'm going to take issue with:
If you read history you'll most likely find that most LW pilots didn't like the state their country was in and disliked their leadership (Hartmann, Galland, Hermann, I could go on...) But weren't going to sit back and let people bomb their famlies and cities.
True enough, I wouldn't sit back and watch my country get bombed, either. But, it looks like you're discussing the LW pilots and their views in 1944-45, when things weren't very rosy for them. What I want to know is, were they just as unhappy with their leadership and the state of their country when things were good as they rolled over Poland, France, and Russia?
I know you want to believe that the LW pilots were all just good patriotic Germans defending themselves from the hordes of Allied bombers. They were indeed, between 1944-45. But what about between 1939-1942? There wasn't much bombing going on inside Germany at that time, correct? What, pray tell, were they during that time frame? Agressors, perhaps?
While not a scholar on the LW, I have read a few books about the lw pilots, including "Fighter General" and "Horrido!", and I don't remember any of the pilots expressing concerns with how things were going as long as they were wracking up victory after victory. It was only during the BoB that you started seeing Galland and some others starting to express concern over how Goering was handling the LW.
Oh, and if you say that "most" lw pilots weren't Nazi's, prove it. Where are the numbers? Let's see the data.
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German targets were being bombed as early as November 1941...
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Originally posted by banana:
True enough, I wouldn't sit back and watch my country get bombed, either. But, it looks like you're discussing the LW pilots and their views in 1944-45, when things weren't very rosy for them. What I want to know is, were they just as unhappy with their leadership and the state of their country when things were good as they rolled over Poland, France, and Russia?
Yes. There are many examples of German officers expressely refusing to accept the nazi salute over the military ones. Lutjens and Lindemann come to my mind right now, Lutjens especially. He was the admiral aboard Bismarck, one of the Nazi Germany's emblems, in May 1941 when the Kriegsmarine's commerce raiding was at its peak. He refused to do the nazi salute and he used to wore the Hochseeflotte's insignias instead of the Nazi ones. Lindemann was also a known antinazi.
There are many examples of no nazi pilots in WWII, all oposed to nazi regimen. You have a good example of it in that moment when Göring asked each JG commander to select a pilot of his squadron to be courtmartialled for cowardice in front of the enemy (because the bombings over germany). All and every one of them offered themselves. That is a clear affrent to a superior, and givess you the measure of respect they had for the nazi regime and rulers (Göering was Hitler's succesor).
I know you want to believe that the LW pilots were all just good patriotic Germans defending themselves from the hordes of Allied bombers. They were indeed, between 1944-45. But what about between 1939-1942? There wasn't much bombing going on inside Germany at that time, correct? What, pray tell, were they during that time frame? Agressors, perhaps?
First bombing on Berlin happened in September 1940. And the campaign then started didnt stop until May 1945.
While not a scholar on the LW, I have read a few books about the lw pilots, including "Fighter General" and "Horrido!", and I don't remember any of the pilots expressing concerns with how things were going as long as they were wracking up victory after victory. It was only during the BoB that you started seeing Galland and some others starting to express concern over how Goering was handling the LW.
Mostly because up to BoB Göring only had disturbed LW operations once: over Dunkirk. We all know what happened there. Göering didnt do anything else during poland or France campaign.
Oh, and if you say that "most" lw pilots weren't Nazi's, prove it. Where are the numbers? Let's see the data.
In this world and in Democracy there is something called "Innocence pressumption". It consists that EVERY one is innocent of any crime or guilt unless there are proofs of the opposite.
So here YOU MUST give the proofs to accuse German LW pilots of Nazis. We dont need to give ANYTHING to proof their innocence.
There were nazi pigs in LW. Rudel is the main example of this. an egocentric nazi pig. But there were a lot of no nazis on LW, Stiegler comes to mind right now to my mind.
So banana, come here with proofs or stop your "nazi" call. LW pilots, Wehrmatch soldiers, Kriegsmarine sailors, all fought for their country, not for a regimen. There were nazis fighting for their Führer, sure, but for sure there were many more fighting for their friends, families and girlfriends.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-28-2000).]
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RAM that is true about Stigler. Ask me online sometime, I have a little story to relate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Nath,
That date does not explain the Luftwaffe's acts during the Spanish Civil War. An entire Basque (forgive me RAM if I got the spelling wrong) village was bombed to destruction (the anniversary of this incident was just last week, I forget the name of the village now). Civilians were the intended target, period. It had no factories, no strategic value, other than as a symbol to the Basque people of Spain of their independent history and nature.
I don't recall German soil being bombed during that time.
Not really sure how the aggressor is getting painted as the victim here.
PS.. My family on my mother's side lost German relatives to allied bombing. My Grandfather migrated from Germany before the war. But I can't buy the argument that the Luftwaffe was just protecting their borders.
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Funked, Will do. Stigler is one of the pilots I most admire. I read about his encounter with the damaged B17, when he let the bomber instead of killing it(so putting himself on danger of a court martial, and also giving up in getting the kill he needed for the knight's cross).
I know also about his postwar "problem" when a civilian called him nazi...and I know his reaction too.
As I say I admire the class man he showed he is.
Originally posted by Cobra:
Nath,
That date does not explain the Luftwaffe's acts during the Spanish Civil War. An entire Basque (forgive me RAM if I got the spelling wrong) village was bombed to destruction (the anniversary of this incident was just last week, I forget the name of the village now). Civilians were the intended target, period. It had no factories, no strategic value, other than as a symbol to the Basque people of Spain of their independent history and nature.
Gernika. Basque country's authonomy emblem city. Was the first massive terror bombing of the history. And yes, was bombed only because its simbology, not because any militar significance.
Curious, that reminds me Dresden... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Still it had nothing to do with luftwaffe. Kondor Legion was under direct command of Nationalist High command, so it was under direct command of Generalissimo Francisco Franco (may he burn in hell besides Hitler and Stalin, BTW). So luftwaffe high command has nothing to do in this matter.
Anyway Cobra we arent talking of "the other did it first" I dont care who did it first. German bomber pilots bombed Rotterdam and Belgrade causing much damage and civilian casualties. I still say they arent responsible for following orders...just as Dresden bomber crews aren't (the straffing fighters are another thing, tho).
LW pilots followed orders, just as RAF or USAAF pilots. Or are you telling me that Japanese cities' bombing was something worse than Rotterdam?.
The responsables are the people on the command, not the ones who fly the plane. Try to say "no" to an order in the middle of a war, cobra. Then I'll believe in what you say, at the same time I pray for your soul when you are in front of the execution squad that is going to fire at you.
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I am no Nazi sympathizer, but I think history does point to many Germans -- perhaps moreso the German high command than common soldier or civilian -- that thought Hitler was leading the country to ruin well before 1943/45.
If you believe Churchill's writings in "The Gathering Storm", the German military command was at odds with Hitler during his most triumphant conquests. They knew that their army could not attack Austria, Chechlozvakia, and Poland at the times that they did and keep the western allies at bay if they decided to march against Germany. Hitler, however, judged correctly that France and England were blinded by thoughts of peace and would not war with him. Even when war was finally declared after the invasion of Poland, the allies did nothing but wait for Germany to turn its military spear-point upon them (actions in Norway notwithstanding).
Churchill writes of many plots by the German military command to arrest Hitler during this time. None of these were carried out for various reasons, the foremost being the vindication of Hitler's brazen agressions by the Allies lack of a response at every turn. By the time things became difficult for Germany, they had conquered most of Europe and Hitler's prestige made him nearly inassailable.
Gordo
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RAM,
My reply wasn't a "they did it first" type of thing.
It was to show the inconsistencies in the arguement that the Luftwaffe pilots were only defending their families.
If you had said they were following orders, then I can go along with that. But that wasn't the arguement that was put forward. And, of course, it does not alter the fact of who the aggressor was as well. I'm not defending or championing any one side here. At all points in history, most national and ehtnic groups have been an aggressor.
Cobra
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RAM said
So here YOU MUST give the proofs to accuse German LW pilots of Nazis. We dont need to give ANYTHING to proof their innocence.
I never said that most lw pilots were Nazis. The truth is, some were, and some were not. Nath was the one that made the blanket statement that most LW were not Nazi's. So, why do I have to prove something that I never said?
RAM, you are a passionate guy, but you have the ability to use logic in your arguments. I salute you for that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) We don't always agree, but at least we can keep the discussion civil.
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Anyways, Udie I had fun in the event. If anyone cares to read about what this thread was meant for, check the Special Events board.
Fury
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I never said that most lw pilots were Nazis. The truth is, some were, and some were not. Nath was the one that made the blanket statement that most LW were not Nazi's. So, why do I have to prove something that I never said?
lol, lets define "Nazi", "Member of the National Socialist Party that, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, controlled Germany from 1935 to 1945." "or relating to this party or its doctrines and principles."
Nazis = Hitler, Speer, Goring, Rudel, Milch, Himmler...
MOST LW pilots were not Nazis.
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
Aces High Scenario Corps
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-28-2000).]
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Nath, let's take this argument into my WARNING! thread. I'd like to hear what you have to say in there. Oh, btw, the Nazi party was in power from 1933-45, not 35-45.
My apologies to Udie for Hijacking his thread.
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So Nath.. you nazi (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).. how'd you do in the scenario?
AKDejaVu